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Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!?
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I mean, he's always had an aggressive position, but it looks like he's moved back a bit and/ or more stretched out in the above photo from the Dauphine Libere this week (above) compared to the below photo from the 2009 TdF. Specifically, look at the distance from the knee to triceps.



How does he breathe like that? Is there some special technique to not crush your diaphragm?

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My Science Blog
"The only fair race is the race against the clock" -Anquetil

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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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By opening his mouth causing a pressure difference in his lungs to the outside air ;) Really that's not a hard position to breath in.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Aero cannula.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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This is not his normal TT position. In the other photos I saw from yesterday's TT, he was normally sitting in a much more forward position. In the first picture I suspect he's descending and trying to be as aero as possible, not necessarily powerful or comfortable.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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I was watching the TT yesterday and with those socks hiked up high, all I could think is that he looks like a stork. "Lanky Scottsman" is an understatement, but damn, he tore up that TT. He also looks super lean and I'm really keen to see how he goes in the mountains this weekend.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Likely he's expanding his lungs into his abdomen. Belly breathing! On another note, Is your downward sloping torso really faster than a flat/level back? Im sure Wiggins has spent some serious time in a wind tunnel, but his position is quite unique.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [rrkid] [ In reply to ]
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rrkid wrote:
Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?

I would say more that that is shes female so probably has the smallest body of the group.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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i think the "breathing" issue is urban mythology. i think ventilation is rarely an issue in bike positioning. i think "opening up the lungs" is a proxy for other things, like, opening up the hip angle so that a mechanical advantage can be gained over the resistance that needs to be overcome.

elbows in tight, position too stretched out, armrest drop too low, are all problems, or can be problems. i just don't think they're usually problems of ventilation. of course, it's easily tested with a fit bike and a spirometer. still, even if a position caused a drop from, say, 4 liters of air per inhalation to 3.9 liters, you'd still have to demonstrate that uptake was compromised.

i'm not stating this as a fact, rather as an opinion. it's a guess, and my guess may be inaccurate. but i haven't seen anything yet that suggests that ventilation is the determiner of TT positions to the degree people seem to think they are.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [rrkid] [ In reply to ]
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yes it is pretty well understood that stretched out is fast.

the 90 degree rule of thumb is for comfort more than speed.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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draketriathlon wrote:
rrkid wrote:
Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?


I would say more that that is shes female so probably has the smallest body of the group.

Not sure about that - can't get pipes any thinner than Wiggins! Plus, women generally have much wider hips, esp to very thin body types like Bradley's.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Does anyone else find the "PROtotype" decals on what are so obviously HED3s to be incredibly funny? Of all the wheels to pretend are Shimano PRO prototypes, you'd think they'd pick a wheel that isn't universally recognizable...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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his crank/big ring is funky as hell? whats with the 'extra' oval shape???
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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rroof wrote:
draketriathlon wrote:
rrkid wrote:
Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?


I would say more that that is shes female so probably has the smallest body of the group.


Not sure about that - can't get pipes any thinner than Wiggins! Plus, women generally have much wider hips, esp to very thin body types like Bradley's.

Not disagreeing you may very well be right. I just think there is more than one variable going into the equation then she is faster because her arms aren't at 90 degrees. If that makes sense.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i think the "breathing" issue is urban mythology. i think ventilation is rarely an issue in bike positioning. i think "opening up the lungs" is a proxy for other things, like, opening up the hip angle so that a mechanical advantage can be gained over the resistance that needs to be overcome.

elbows in tight, position too stretched out, armrest drop too low, are all problems, or can be problems. i just don't think they're usually problems of ventilation. of course, it's easily tested with a fit bike and a spirometer. still, even if a position caused a drop from, say, 4 liters of air per inhalation to 3.9 liters, you'd still have to demonstrate that uptake was compromised.

i'm not stating this as a fact, rather as an opinion. it's a guess, and my guess may be inaccurate. but i haven't seen anything yet that suggests that ventilation is the determiner of TT positions to the degree people seem to think they are.

That's a very good point. TT's are almost never at VO2max effort, so compromising more than a few % of maximum breathing might not be an issue.

Regarding the stretched position... I found this on the Team SKY website.

contrast to the 2009 TdF photo

He looks pretty far forward perched on both saddles. Perhaps more so for the TdF? It could also be a longer saddle. Though it does look like he is farther aft in his overall position and more "stretched out"... I wonder if this is an aerodynamic advantage?

-----------------------
My Science Blog
"The only fair race is the race against the clock" -Anquetil

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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Does anyone else find the "PROtotype" decals on what are so obviously HED3s to be incredibly funny? Of all the wheels to pretend are Shimano PRO prototypes, you'd think they'd pick a wheel that isn't universally recognizable...

Haha. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing...

-----------------------
My Science Blog
"The only fair race is the race against the clock" -Anquetil

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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Matafan] [ In reply to ]
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Matafan wrote:
This is not his normal TT position. In the other photos I saw from yesterday's TT, he was normally sitting in a much more forward position. In the first picture I suspect he's descending and trying to be as aero as possible, not necessarily powerful or comfortable.

This is correct. When I initially saw this photo yesterday I thought he had completely changed his position, but when watching the coverage on versus I'm not even sure it's different from what he's been riding all year. I think you're right that this was just during a decent and he's tucking to get more aero.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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well at least they didn't bother to PROtotype the lightweight disc.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is it possible to have your arms stretched out forward like that and not require additional muscle recruitment? Is strengthening the shoulders to be able to push backwards a requirement so you don't keep sliding forward? If you had really flexible shoulders/back and no arm muscle it might be a little easier to hold them out there, but I think that is a pretty tough position to hold for an hour.

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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a semi superman actually helps me breathe since my elbows are narrow and is a lot more aero
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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I was/am more amazed at how ugly those pinarello TT bikes are and how un-aero they look.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [BSUdude] [ In reply to ]
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BSUdude wrote:
I was/am more amazed at how ugly those pinarello TT bikes are and how un-aero they look.

Yeah I had to laugh yesterday when Bob roll said that Wiggins was much better at equipment selection than vinokourov. The cable routing on that pinarello is atrocious, while vino is on a Shiv. Not saying in other aspects Bob roll isn't right, but I just found that funny.

Also if I hear Bob roll over-pronounce one more damn name I might shoot myself. I finds his commentary extremely annoying. Everyone and their mother knows how to pronounce zabriskie's last name, but to Bob roll its always zabreeeeski.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I was watching the TT yesterday and with those socks hiked up high, all I could think is that he looks like a stork. "Lanky Scottsman" is an understatement, but damn, he tore up that TT..

Actually, he's English (not a Scot) but you're right he does look super lean. Interesting also that he was so cautious on the decsent when he is known to be a very good descender.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Is it just me or does it seem to be a bit of an optical illusion because of the different seatpost angles??? Maybe the two positions shown are not that far removed due to the geometry of the Graal vs the DA?? On the DA his elbows are over the stem but the Graal looks like the Head tube has more rake?? The back is obviously flatter on the Graal.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [triarcher] [ In reply to ]
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I got a $ says the position are identical just in different states of scooted forwardness on the saddle at different times.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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I love Wiggin's track helmet.

How does it compare aerodynamically with a conventional "tailed" aero helmet?

Where can I get one in the US? :-)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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PBK has a few.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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When you go as fast as Wiggins you don't need to breathe - just use the Ramjet principle to compress the air into your lungs and bloodstream.


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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Remember, this is ST: Breathing doesn't matter. Just aerodynamics.


Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [seebritri] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Old Albion] [ In reply to ]
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Old Albion wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
I was watching the TT yesterday and with those socks hiked up high, all I could think is that he looks like a stork. "Lanky Scottsman" is an understatement, but damn, he tore up that TT..


Actually, he's English (not a Scot) but you're right he does look super lean. Interesting also that he was so cautious on the decsent when he is known to be a very good descender.

Actually, O.A. the Belgians could have claim on Brad as he was born in Ghent! But a true London boy from breeding. Definitely not a Scot though.


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Landyachtz] [ In reply to ]
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This is why they don't let Bobke out in public much. True Phil is getting senile in his old days, but I got pretty sick of hearing 'Beau-Ahhhhsehn - Haggen' in all his commentary today.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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"distance from the knee to triceps. " sorry but I see no triceps!
he must have less than 1% body fat on him! He is an impressive rider but wtf eat something quickly!!

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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who sells that helmet?? can't even find it on the KASK website?
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [thePharaoh] [ In reply to ]
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They aren't selling it until after London 2012.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [thePharaoh] [ In reply to ]
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thePharaoh wrote:
who sells that helmet?? can't even find it on the KASK website?

It isn't available to the public yet.


http://teamsky.cyclingnews.com/tech-features/1040/


"the helmet will be used exclusively by Team Sky and British Cycling until the 2012 London Olympics, after which it will become available to the public"
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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Bastards! there goes my chance to improve from 30th to 29th in AG
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [thePharaoh] [ In reply to ]
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thePharaoh wrote:
Bastards! there goes my chance to improve from 30th to 29th in AG

or maybe 31st

I assume the idea with that helmet is to be better at more yaw angles so you can look around/down more

buuuuuut

that is a pro cycling team! surely they can keep their head still for 30 minutes



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't it that they've found the head down position is more aero, and have just done a helmet design optimised for that?
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i think the "breathing" issue is urban mythology. i think ventilation is rarely an issue in bike positioning. i think "opening up the lungs" is a proxy for other things, like, opening up the hip angle so that a mechanical advantage can be gained over the resistance that needs to be overcome.

I think breathing limits my power production in a narrow elbow TT position. I actually spent Nov '10 - Feb '11 testing this theory... almost all workouts were on the trainer on the TT bike. To this day, I have never put out >320 watts for 20 minutes in a narrow elbow TT position. With wide elbows I have produced over 340 for nearly 30 minutes (actually years ago when I first started training with power and before I started tweaking my position). I don't *know* for sure though because I was too lazy to move the elbow position back and forth week to week (and after mid-Feb my main TT target was complete and I needed to get ready for road racing)... maybe next winter.

I *think* this is a problem for me because I have very broad shoulders. Bringing my elbows together closes in my chest more than others. I'm open to different theories but I'm pretty confident that this is the source of my problem.



Erik
Strava
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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mcdoublee wrote:
I *think* this is a problem for me because I have very broad shoulders. Bringing my elbows together closes in my chest more than others. I'm open to different theories but I'm pretty confident that this is the source of my problem.
I feel like I lack leverage on the bars to get the power out with my elbows closer together. I saw this quite clearly when riding a road bike with clip-ons. I was getting frustrated with my lack of power in the clip-ons on a 6 minute hill climb up a modest gradient (only 2.5% average), and switched to the drops. My body position didn't change to any significant extent, but I instantly saw my power go up by tens of Watts due to being able to pull so much harder against the bars, and it stayed at the higher level, it wasn't just a short term gain that quickly faded.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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Wiggins apparently averaged 476W in the recent CTT 10 mile TT champs....
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Breathing is overrated and an anachronistic concept.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [zone_V] [ In reply to ]
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Mobile ECMO is the way to roll



























:-)
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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i don't understand why you need to pull on the bars to make power.

do you make a LOT of power?

im pretty sure i can do my 20 minute power with no tension on the bars at all. in fact im sure of it, it would be exhausting otherwise.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad Dan chimed in on breathing restriction with an aggressive position being an urban myth (in his opinion). I share that opinion and would like to expand it to include the mistaken idea that one can not have narrow armrests if they have broad shoulders for the same reason. I'm 6'2 and have extremely wide shoulders. I mainly race bikes and every time I see a picture of myself in the peleton, I look like a rolling billboard I'm pushing so much air compared to everyone else. I recently sent my Ventus aerobats to Rob English to have them modified so I could get lower and narrower. I go considerably narrower than even the closest setting. As I've gotten my set up to max drop and as narrow as you can go I have experienced NO breathing restriction. The ability to ride aggressive (in my opinion) has everything to do with flexibility and nothing to do with body size, shoulder width, etc. And this isn't just for short cycling TT's either. I'm doing IMCd'A in a couple weeks and I've done countless 4 and 5 hour rides in this position without any problem.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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give him a break... he is only trying to pass gas for a second or two.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [SpencerDC] [ In reply to ]
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The interesting thing is that the breathing restriction is only a problem when I am riding near or above threshold. I can TT all day long at HIM or IM paces with narrow elbows... 40k TT pace or faster, no way. I actually feel like I'm not pulling in enough air.



Erik
Strava
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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do this test:
get in your aero position or just in a chair with your elbows touching.

breathe in as deep as you can

sit up, pull your elbows apart.

how much more can you breathe in?

0 for me

and you don't breathe that deep at threshold any way.

im not saying this is impossible, but I do really doubt that narrow elbows actually interferes with breathing. I can't see how it would.


mcdoublee wrote:
The interesting thing is that the breathing restriction is only a problem when I am riding near or above threshold. I can TT all day long at HIM or IM paces with narrow elbows... 40k TT pace or faster, no way. I actually feel like I'm not pulling in enough air.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I've done this exact test and do believe I breath easier when my elbows are not close together. But am I an objective observer?



Erik
Strava
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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mcdoublee wrote:
I've done this exact test and do believe I breath easier when my elbows are not close together. But am I an objective observer?

we are never objective observers of ourselves.

im just trying to even imagine the mechanics of how it could restrict breathing. its not physically taking up space that my chest is trying to expand into, to have my elbows narrow.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
i don't understand why you need to pull on the bars to make power.

do you make a LOT of power?

im pretty sure i can do my 20 minute power with no tension on the bars at all. in fact im sure of it, it would be exhausting otherwise.
I'm talking more about power over a few minutes rather than 20 minutes, though even over 20 minutes it becomes an issue with varying terrain where you need short periods of much higher power. I know I am pulling on the bars quite hard for my 1 minute max power, my peak pedal force is around 150% of my bodyweight, so it isn't surprising to me that I need to do that. I'm hundreds of watts down on power if I try to do an effort like that in the aerobars. Perhaps I should be pulling up more with the other foot to cancel out the force, I'd have thought that unless you do that, applying a lot of force with one leg is always going to move your body away in the opposite direction? I must be doing something wrong because I find it very very hard to cycle at 476W for any duration at all in the TT position, whereas Wiggins does it for 19 minutes. But on the hoods pulling against the bars I can sustain 476W for a few minutes.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
do this test:
get in your aero position or just in a chair with your elbows touching.

breathe in as deep as you can

sit up, pull your elbows apart.

how much more can you breathe in?

I just did this -- I can breathe MUCH more deeply with my elbows at shoulder width than with them touching. I have a 40-41" chest, though, and with my elbows touching, it's the stretch across my back that limits how deeply I can breathe. With my elbows at shoulder width, it's my chest/diaphragm that limits it. Elbows about 6-8" apart is almost the same as elbows at shoulder width.

Now, whether or not this makes a difference when riding at threshold, I can't say. But certainly for some people elbow width is going to affect their ultimate breathing ability.

Asad
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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if we're to assign cause to a drop in power, i think we have to separate fit coordinates from ventilation. it may be that narrowing elbows restricts ventilation, and that this restriction in ventilation further restricts uptake. but this is just intuited on your part. it's not proven.

i have no doubt that discomfort on the bike affects power. i just question whether your power-restricting-discomfort comes from a lack of ability to take in a full inspiration, or whether your power-restricting-discomfort comes from an inability to rest comfortably aboard a bike, with an economy of motion, allowing you to concentrate your efforts toward producing power.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [asad137] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Steve Irwin] [ In reply to ]
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I'm obviously in the Jack Mott camp on this one as I have no difference if I'm riding a 6 mile TT or a 112 mile TT, going steady on the flats or pulling hard over a little rise. More aggressive and tighter works for me with regard to speed and power. But I think this is another great example of 'viva la difference.' It wouldn't be any fun if there was one set of equipment or position that was clearly the only way to go. Part of the fun of this great sport is experimenting with different 'stuff' to see what works best. I've been doing this for 20 years and for the first time ever, I feel like I have my bike and position dialed in perfectly. Next month, I'm sure I'll be coveting something new and different (btw, put me down for a huge fan of the Sky TT helmet!).
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
do this test:
get in your aero position or just in a chair with your elbows touching.

breathe in as deep as you can

sit up, pull your elbows apart.

how much more can you breathe in?

0 for me

and you don't breathe that deep at threshold any way.

im not saying this is impossible, but I do really doubt that narrow elbows actually interferes with breathing. I can't see how it would.


mcdoublee wrote:
The interesting thing is that the breathing restriction is only a problem when I am riding near or above threshold. I can TT all day long at HIM or IM paces with narrow elbows... 40k TT pace or faster, no way. I actually feel like I'm not pulling in enough air.

I'm in the process of fitting a new rig, and the shop had me do _exactly_ that test, because I can set the pads as narrow as I like, with no discomfort. However, and obviously this is personal, there was zero doubt that the narrowest setting restricted my breathing.

But isn't the bigger performance issue related arm width likely to be how your arms line up w/ the rest of your body, especially your hips and knees (and ability to shield them from the wind)? My understanding is that there is no clear rule on narrower=more aero, because the 'optimal' width for the pads depends on other measurements, too, which are different for different bodies.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I am pretty sure the difficulty in breathing based on elbow position is an individual thing. My room mate in college could not make his elbows touch at shoulder height (in front of him). The subject came up as I was trying to explain why his breaststroke form sucked. I can do it easily and thought that everyone else could too. I'm pretty sure that someone who can't make their elbows touch will also have trouble breathing when their elbows are closer together on the bike.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
if we're to assign cause to a drop in power, i think we have to separate fit coordinates from ventilation. it may be that narrowing elbows restricts ventilation, and that this restriction in ventilation further restricts uptake. but this is just intuited on your part. it's not proven.

You are absolutely correct, my assertion is not proven. But, I have experiences and testing that lead me to believe it is a reasonable (and not disproven) hypothesis. So I will take my admittedly anecdotal evidence and weigh it against the evidence you have brought forward. Wait, what evidence is it that you are presenting here?



Erik
Strava
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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again, i don't doubt that a change in your position causes you to lose power. i'm questioning your certitude as to causation. as to my evidence, my evidence that you lack evidence is your lack of evidence. that's my evidence. i'm not asserting causation.

just, over the years i keep hearing an impingement on one's "breathing" put forward as the cause proximal to a lack of power. i'm very suspicious of this. if i take you at your word - and i do - that a change in position caused a drop in your power, then all you and i know is that the change of position caused a drop on your power. the further mechanics behind your loss of power is still a mystery. you can guess it's that your ventilation was compromised. maybe so. but i think there's big room for doubt.

my only point here is that people should stop taking for granted that moving the aerobars too low; moving the elbows too close; impinges breathing. such changes make you uncomfortable. it might impact on the mechanics of how you push down on the pedals. it may very well cause a reduction in power. but it's an unvalidated leap to say the change in position decreased your ventilation which in turn caused a decrease in power.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience, the narrow elbow positions (regardless of aerobar height), coincide with both a decrease in power and a corresponding feeling of not getting enough air. I admit it is not an objective measure, but I don't think one should call it "no evidence". That many other people experience the same sensation is curious.

I guess I'm equally suspicious of the nebulous "change in mechanics" explanation.

Maybe I could borrow that neat machine my asthma doctor had me blow into to measure lung capacity...



Erik
Strava
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [draketriathlon] [ In reply to ]
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draketriathlon wrote:
rroof wrote:
draketriathlon wrote:
rrkid wrote:
Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?


I would say more that that is shes female so probably has the smallest body of the group.


Not sure about that - can't get pipes any thinner than Wiggins! Plus, women generally have much wider hips, esp to very thin body types like Bradley's.


Not disagreeing you may very well be right. I just think there is more than one variable going into the equation then she is faster because her arms aren't at 90 degrees. If that makes sense.[/quote

I would think her natural female frontal anatomy (which acts the same as Schleck's Camelfront) would likely have a pretty huge effect too. She does appear to have one of the more natural female physiques in cycling, unlike Liz Hatch who is very much un-natural.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Starting from scratch...
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [SpencerDC] [ In reply to ]
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SpencerDC wrote:
I'm glad Dan chimed in on breathing restriction with an aggressive position being an urban myth (in his opinion). I share that opinion and would like to expand it to include the mistaken idea that one can not have narrow armrests if they have broad shoulders for the same reason. I'm 6'2 and have extremely wide shoulders. I mainly race bikes and every time I see a picture of myself in the peleton, I look like a rolling billboard I'm pushing so much air compared to everyone else. I recently sent my Ventus aerobats to Rob English to have them modified so I could get lower and narrower. I go considerably narrower than even the closest setting. As I've gotten my set up to max drop and as narrow as you can go I have experienced NO breathing restriction. The ability to ride aggressive (in my opinion) has everything to do with flexibility and nothing to do with body size, shoulder width, etc. And this isn't just for short cycling TT's either. I'm doing IMCd'A in a couple weeks and I've done countless 4 and 5 hour rides in this position without any problem.

Phil, that's because you are a triathlete playing with the roadies. Triathletes are "buffer", you stick out like a sore thumb in the peleton.
;-)
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Kbattle] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! And here I was thinking I was a swimmer playing with all the triathletes:-) Way to much fun to be had out there to limit myself to one sport. Now it's Tuesday night, get yourself to PIR and come play with we roadies.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Does anyone else find the "PROtotype" decals on what are so obviously HED3s to be incredibly funny? Of all the wheels to pretend are Shimano PRO prototypes, you'd think they'd pick a wheel that isn't universally recognizable...


Also, I can't escape the irony that after the best part of 25 years Shimano have applied "PROtotype" to a wheel that was a genuine Du Pont prototype in the late eighties.
Last edited by: GregW: Jun 16, 11 14:18
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Landyachtz] [ In reply to ]
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Landyachtz wrote:
The cable routing on that pinarello is atrocious...
Obviously not an issue...

Perhaps the trendy "ultra-aero-covered-stem" cable routing is superfluous.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Brushman] [ In reply to ]
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Brushman wrote:
Landyachtz wrote:
The cable routing on that pinarello is atrocious...

Obviously not an issue...

Perhaps the trendy "ultra-aero-covered-stem" cable routing is superfluous.

le sigh....
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [rrkid] [ In reply to ]
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rrkid wrote:
Can't remember if it was Cobb or Hed, but somebody recently did a bunch of tunnel stuff w/ top TTers, and one of the most aero athletes they tested was Kristin Armstrong. The message, at least insofar as I got it right, was that her "superman" was more aero than most of the more contemporary 90-degree arm positions:


Your two pix of Wiggins makes me think he's moved in that direction.

Sidenote, I'm usually behind, but what is up w/ that helmet?

I'm wondering if "the most aero athletes " for armstrong means less drag becouse of smaller frontal area and less speed [cd is dependent on speed as one factor]; and yeah, that helmet looks like it would generate a lot of turbulance in the back!

res, non verba
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
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The word on the street is Cd does not change from 15-35mph. I guess you could run the reynolds number calculations if you want

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
The word on the street is Cd does not change from 15-35mph. I guess you could run the reynolds number calculations if you want

The street is wrong, aerodynamic drag increases exponentially; if you double the speed the drag increases fourfold

res, non verba
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
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familiarize yourself with the terms in the equation: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/...airplane/drageq.html

Cd is not drag force. D is drag force.

also quadratic is not the same as exponential.
Last edited by: jpb: Jun 16, 11 23:21
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
seebritri wrote:
Remember, this is ST: Breathing doesn't matter. Just aerodynamics.


correct.

Surely the trick is to just breathe more frequently - a la Gary Hall Sr.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
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RoYe wrote:
msuguy512 wrote:
The word on the street is Cd does not change from 15-35mph. I guess you could run the reynolds number calculations if you want


The street is wrong, aerodynamic drag increases exponentially; if you double the speed the drag increases fourfold


"Cd" is the coefficient of drag (ie, how 'sticky' a given surface appears to the wind, a function of the object's shape and surface, or "form drag" and "surface friction") and is by definition a constant with respect to velocity, and thus does not change, not only within a range, but across all apparent wind speeds.

But the poster's math is correct (2x the speed = 2^2 = 4x the drag): the drag created by an object, of a given surface area and with a given Cd, increases with the square of the velocity (which as jbp notes is an exponent, but not "exponential").

For those that enjoy math and find it annoying hard work to increase their ground speed, the really harsh reality is that the power required to move an object through a viscous medium at a given speed is proportional to the speed times the drag. Since drag increases quadratically with velocity, required power increases with the cube of velocity (2x the speed = 4x the drag = 8x the power). Which is of course why the absolute speed differences between say a high level amateur and pro get small relative to their large differences in power output on a TT course, while their speed difference on a steep hill is enormous.
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [Ryon] [ In reply to ]
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Hard not to notice that he is riding an Osymetric chainring in both pictures.

Thomas Craven
Osymetrican
Owner/Evangelist
OsymetricUSA.com
info@osymetricusa.com
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Re: Bradley Wiggins's position... how does he breathe?!? [rrkid] [ In reply to ]
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rrkid wrote:
RoYe wrote:
msuguy512 wrote:
The word on the street is Cd does not change from 15-35mph. I guess you could run the reynolds number calculations if you want


The street is wrong, aerodynamic drag increases exponentially; if you double the speed the drag increases fourfold


"Cd" is the coefficient of drag (ie, how 'sticky' a given surface appears to the wind, a function of the object's shape and surface, or "form drag" and "surface friction") and is by definition a constant with respect to velocity, and thus does not change, not only within a range, but across all apparent wind speeds.

But the poster's math is correct (2x the speed = 2^2 = 4x the drag): the drag created by an object, of a given surface area and with a given Cd, increases with the square of the velocity (which as jbp notes is an exponent, but not "exponential").

For those that enjoy math and find it annoying hard work to increase their ground speed, the really harsh reality is that the power required to move an object through a viscous medium at a given speed is proportional to the speed times the drag. Since drag increases quadratically with velocity, required power increases with the cube of velocity (2x the speed = 4x the drag = 8x the power). Which is of course why the absolute speed differences between say a high level amateur and pro get small relative to their large differences in power output on a TT course, while their speed difference on a steep hill is enormous.

I believe we assume a constant Cd. This may be an valid assumption most of the time (and it certainly makes calculations easier) but isn't it possible for the coefficient to change depending on the speed as a result of some kind of interaction with the air?

edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient

"In general, is not an absolute constant for a given body shape. It varies with the speed of airflow (or more generally with Reynolds number). A smooth sphere, for example, has a that varies from high values for laminar flow to 0.47 for turbulent flow."

We assume the coefficient is constant much in the way we assume a spherical cow...
Last edited by: Min: Jul 8, 11 12:30
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