Possible. it depends how small you are.

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There is actually a guy on here who did that at Austria. He posted a race report from Kona as well showing his frontal and it ain't much....tiny. I remember looking at that and thinking 'wtf?'. He has a sick position!

I rode 5:04 at IMC a few years ago with an average of 178 watts (this includes coasting) I weighted about 145ibs.

Bike was very cheap alum frame with mavic cosmic carbones, not too aggressive position.

But how tall are you?

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Erik
Strava

could be close, depending on course.
I did IMFL last month in 4.57.01 at 208w (217 NP), and I weigh in at 156 lbs with full aero gear, disc.

5'10

My thoughts are that there must be at least one of the following going on to achieve sub 5

• Very aero
• Very small person
• miscalibration
• easy course
• great pavement
• no wind
• drafting

Or all of the above.

For example, if Paula Newby Fraser or Natasha Badmann had a powermeter, I am sure we'd see numbers lower than 200W.

For the 145 guy doing almost 5 hours at IMC on 178, saying his position is not too aggressive (given ~3000 feet of vertical at IMC), I think other factors are at play (maybe some miscalibration). That's a 3255 Kjoule ride. Keep in mind it takes around 600 Kjoules just to lift a rider plus bike vertically up all the climbing on the IMC course. So that leaves around 2600 Kjoules for this rider to do a pancake flat 5 hour course.....that would translate to 144 watts on a pancake flat course for a 5 hour ride. Is this remotely in the realm of possiblity for a 145 lb rider with a not so aggressive position? I got my bullshit meter out on that one.

Please fess up to miscalibration.

Dev

Edit: corrected for 178W

If the start and finish are at the same elevation, he'll get those 600 KJoules back.

Depending on RR, pancake flat course would put him at .22 - .24 for Cda. I don't know if that is bullshit, my frame of reference is much bigger ;-).

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Erik
Strava

I did 2:30.xx at Timberman ... didn't race with my powertap but it is impossible that I went significantly over 200 and likely that I was below 190 (2x20 power only 230-ish) I'm small though, 5'4 and 122-ish.

Should also add that I started in the second-last wave and am not a good swimmer so no doubt benefitted from slingshotting past a lot of cyclists as I was one of the last people on the road.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Miscalibration echoes my thoughts. I don't know how but I've always thought my powertap reads low (despite "proper" calibration before every ride) based on peers' wattage #'s on rides. Either that or I'm slippery as an eel...

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Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding it hurts.

Sorry just new at this - when you say is a 3200 Kj course, how do you go to calories expended? A converter puts it at 764,489 cals so obviosly it's not that simple?

he isn't speaking to the amount of energy your body would burn, but to the energy put into the pedals.

you would burn a lot more calories than you would put to the pedals.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Talking out of your ass as usual.

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178W*(5+4/60)+3600 = 3255Kjoules (the 4/60 = 2/30 = 1/15 = 0.06666 is to account for the :04 in his 5:04 split).

To the poster who said, "you get all those stored joules back", you're right, you get some of them back, just not all, so my implied calculation for a sub 150W ride for a 5 hour ride is off. Climbing Richter and Yellow lakes you're going at 15-20kph and coming down you're ripping at 60-80 kph. There's a shitload of your stored potential energy joules blowing up in the wind....maybe not all of them, but most of them.

Even if we say that his "equivalent flat course" wattage is sub 165 for a 5:04 ride, would you buy it? He said he is 5'10" and 145 and not too aero.

Classic



To add to the post, it also depends how big the guy is you are riding 7 meters behind and how fast he is going.

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Here. Norm power of 185w at Austria for a 4:58 split. I raced Austria really light at around 132lbs (height 5'9). Pic below is from Kona this year, with an identical position to Austria.



Kona was norm power 192w for a 5:05 split, but I was heavier at ~136lbs.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

Keep in mind that 1 Calorie with an upper case C is 1000 calories with a lower case c. To add to the confusion, people often write "calorie" when then in fact mean "Calorie" or "kilo calorie." So 3200 Kj is 764 Cal, or 764,489 cal. However you obviously "burn" more calories that that, because your body not 100% efficient. As a rule of thumb, you burn about 1 Calorie to produce 1 Kj of work. So you would burn about 3200 Calories to produce 3200 Kj of work.

Dude that kills me to read 'I was heavier at 136'. How tall are you? I think I went through 136 around the 6th grade!

OK, here is what i remember

I think that was 2005 which was a fast year for IMC.

Aero helmet.

I had 2 flats which shouldn't effect things as SRM stopped recording, ride time was 5:04:xx

I rode conservative on the uphills and tucked like crazy on the downhills and from what I remember I was able to get at least 60% up the rollers in the tuck position without pedaling.

I was quite aero but not crazy aero like some, I can stay in that position for quite a long time.

It was an SRM Pro, could it have been off poss but not by much, on the flats my normal power was in the 190's.

The number was well under 200, normalized power may have been low 190's.

I have not raced for 4 years due to children, but now thinking I should come back to kick your skinny ass.

Why not?

I'm 5'11, 137lbs did IMC in 5.37 on 168w two years ago comfortably & conservatively and I could have been alot more aero.

Holy smokes! Do you guys know what food is? Damn!!!!

Without turning this into a thread about racing weight, being really light will obviously reap greater rewards at hillier races. If I'd been 4 lbs heavier at Austria, which is a fast course, those 4lbs would not have made a huge difference. Contrast that to a course like IM France, where extra weight is a BIG liability, 4lbs would cost more time.

I'd rather obsess about my position and equipment rather than weight. Same with the weight vs aerodynamics argument. Stuff the weight and go with the most aerodynamic option.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

I reckon I'd need <200W for 112 miles in 5 hours based on what I've done for a 50 mile TT. My last one was 1:57:35 at 256W AP 259W NP, so 4:23:23 pace for 112 miles. By my calculations that equates to 186W to do 5 hours. I'm 5' 10" 70kg. I'll admit that the 50 mile TT course was pretty flat, only 270m of elevation gain & loss according to the Garmin. It was also a very good road surface. But it was very cold, I started my ride at 7:35am, average temp was around 12C for the ride, so I was wearing leggings which would have made me a bit less aero than normal. Also, my Cinqo reads 1.3% too high according to a static torque test, so my real power was about 3W lower than the figures above.

This is my riding position:
http://www.kimroyphotography.com/...mp;g2_serialNumber=1

Sadly, my ass is not that skinny and I have aeroness envy on account of problems with my stomach currently limiting how low and tight I can ride. That being said the slope of your SRM may have been off AND you may have not zero'd it out). Sorry to hear about the flats....that really sucks. As for not racing IM due to children, you're a smart man. I wish I had taken that break myself....they are only small for so long and you never get that back.

Oh don't misunderstand me I would LOVE to race at that weight....big time. I'm just wondering how I could. I'm not lean at any stretch, probably fat compared to some of the stallions in here, 12% about 2 months ago...but at 6'1" 180 I don't know how I could get down there and not die:/

I went 5:07 at the Esprit, Montreal, very flat, very smooth, very accurate, zero climb, (42 hairpin bends, one per lap)

Weight 180, 6'1" (on a good day) and I sure as hell don't go over 200w at my age. Position isn't aggressive, bikes a dual with a wheelcover.

So the answer must be yes. Sub 5 on 200w should be doable.

You still get them back, all of them.

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Erik
Strava

Weight is pretty important.

I think it would be very possible, but you have to be small and/or thin with a good bike setup. For a data point I did IMCDA in 5:18 on 188A/197N @150lbs(5'7) in a good position/great gear

Energy yes. Relative energy, no. Which was the original point.

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Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding it hurts.

Most bike riders don't ride nearly fast enough to be worrying about relativistic effects.

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Erik
Strava

Sub 5 hours is doable but would have a great dependency on your weight, size, and aerodynamics.

If you are 60kg, your golden. If your 80kg.... you need to train harder.

When comparing power to bike speed, average power is what you want to use, not NP. It's AP that actually moves you down the road, not the theoretical construct known as NP.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Add me to the list. Did a 4:49 in Feb '09, no PM at the time...I've had a SRM since June this year and I can tell you without doubt there is no way I averaged 200W for that ride.

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Uhhh yea, especially at Florida

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY

I used the below link entering in my data and got a est time of 4:55, although I am not sure how accurate the calculator is and it assumes a flat course.


http://bikecalculator.com/veloMetric.html

I may have been faster with less watts without the flats in the first 15km of IMC which didn't give me the benefit of Dev's much loved draft in the first 60kms

Did 4'59 at IMFL this year, not in a pack (I know everyone says that) was a bit windy averaged 188 watts. I am 5'10 and was 154 lbs for that race.

Maybe I can ask another question to this thread....if a rider does 5 hour off 200, how fast would the same rider go for 220W. Is 4:40 reasonable? Would the same rider be able to do 4:30 for 235W?

Analyticcycling.com will give you your answer. I would expect the answer is no, due to the relationship between speed and power. I don't think 5 hrs off of 200 W is that difficult to achieve. 4:30 off of 235 W isn't realistic though. At least, the math doesn't seem so.

Sure you get that time back. Dev but then they are called grandkids ;o) For the record most of my ten years of inactivity was hanging out with mine. but then again i think i might have screwed them up more being aroud so much .LOL
I agree the SRM must have been off or not zeroed out. Either that or a lot of drafting/coasting.

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For a rider who takes 5:00 at 200W, I get roughly 4:45 at 220W and 4:38 at 235W. The extra power needed to take the same amount of time off starts to go up quite steeply as you get faster.

Do you think that 235W is reasonable for a small rider to do a 60 min 40k ITT and the same rider takes 1.06.42 for a 40 TT at 200W? An example would be someone like Sesel pictured earlier in this thread?

Oh don't misunderstand me I would LOVE to race at that weight....big time. I'm just wondering how I could. I'm not lean at any stretch, probably fat compared to some of the stallions in here, 12% about 2 months ago...but at 6'1" 180 I don't know how I could get down there and not die

Think you need to work for UPS get in a plane crash and name a volley ball wilson ;o)

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Thanks Steve...it cost me 235 average Watts to do a 2:15 bike split for 88.5K at Demi Esprit....arguably this course also involves a fair amount of slingshotting past slower riders, so you're getting a legal draft. That's around a 4:35 on the same course if I could keep up the effort which obviously I cannot. But I just wanted to get a feel if I could get close to a 5 hour bike split off just under 200W on a PANCAKE flat course with little wind with my current setup. What you're saying based on this is that the answer is "close". By the way, I was 138 lbs for that half IM at just over 5'6".

Jordan Rapp yes, nickwhite probably not. :)

What wheel were you in the paceline there? 3rd? 3 back riding a legal 7m will save you 30-40 watts.

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Rob Raulings
My AeroCalc - http://aerocalc.triathlete.com.au/aerotools/ - Blog http://fishboy.triathlete.com.au

"alot" is not a word

5.37 on 168w is PDG

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Dream of racing again some day...

That was the view I had at mile 50 at IM COZ '10. The super ultra cool thing was, 2 minutes later, a race official zoomed up solo on a scooter, went *into* the offending pack, whipped out his iPhone and started taking pictures of drafters! He made 4 people put a foot down right there. Then just up ahead about 5 miles, there was a sin bin after an aid station. He told 8-10 people that he was radioing ahead their numbers, and they had to straddle their bikes for 4 minutes there! AWESOME! Put a huge smile on my face. I was in my own bike world for about 5 minutes up to that point, working it on my own, when I had heard that buzzing pack coming from behind, and I felt so cheated at that moment. But yeah, sure looked familiar from your video. Oh yeah, the sin bin- omigosh! It was full to the brim with drafters, literally overflowing one of the 10'x10' tents! I would say there were 30 people at least in there. SWEET!

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____________________________________________________
Dream of racing again some day...

Ok. I ride with a pretty low VI though so the numbers aren't hugely different.

IM Austria - Av 178w, norm 185w (VI 1.04)
IM Hawaii - Av 187w, norm 192w (VI 1.03)

There are a few differences in equipment between those two races. Used Spiuk Kronos and Hed Jet 90/Disc at IMA compared to RP Wingspan and Hed Jet 60/90 in Kona.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

Not sure if you mean body weight or equipment weight, or both? Whichever it is, when you're on the bike, weight is secondary to aerodynamics. This has been hashed out a thousand times here. On the run however, very important.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

Yeah holy crap I feel fat. The poster on the Bradley Wiggins diet?

cheers
S.

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// qui audet adipiscitur

It can be done easily at his weight. He is only 62 kg. That works out to 3.1 w/kg for his 5:08.
You guys keep missing the point on damn near EVERY wattage post. I will state it again.
RAW WATTS ARE NOT THE PROPER MEASUREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!
W/KG are what you need to be measuring. He is 62kg & did a 5:08. That is not hard.
As a comparison I did a 4:53 at Chesapeakeman Aqua Velo on 3.0 w/kg & I did a 4:58 at Cozumel on 3.1 w/kg. Neither race did I use a disc wheel.
Sub 5:00 on <3 w/kg is very attainable.
Mike

Why do you have to be small? I've done a 58:30 40K TT before on just 225W to the crank. I'm 5' 10-11" and 160-165 lbs. By my quick estimate, 200W would have clocked me ~1:00:30. You don't need to be small...just low drag :-P

A quick rule of thumb is that every 10W is "worth" ~1s/km...so if someone can clock a 60 min. 40K on 235W, then they'd lose ~3.5s/km if they only put out 200W. That would be ~140s slower...so yeah, they should easily be able to go under 1:06 for a 40K. I'm getting more like 1:02:20.

If you want to work it the other way, if someone takes 200W to go 1:06:42 for a 40K, they would need to go ~400s faster to break 1 hour. Using the ROT above (1s/km ~= 10W), that means they'd need a full 100W more to break the hour mark. Your talking more like 300W to be at the 1 hour mark.

So, to answer your question...no, it's not reasonable (all other things being equal, that is).

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Unfortunately, you're missing the point too...for timed cycling events (unless they are pure hill climbs), it's more about W/drag instead of W/kg.

See my post above to Dev.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

4h29 @209w

173cm, 64kg, Challenge Barcelona 2009

alvaro
planetaTri.com

edit: date

+1

I'm 5'9" and 152. If I was any lighter, I'd look and feel like a "manorexic!"

5'11" and 137?!?!? By those standards, I'm overweight!! Aw crap!!

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"Hold on, you run a marathon AFTER you ride your bike?!?....oh, you people are just insane"......(my Mom)

Rockin' the W in 2013!! Wattie Ink Elite Team

A very fast course, but still, that's awesome!

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

I agree that drag is extremely important. I would say the longer the event the more important it is. We are definitely in agreement there. My point is that 99.5% of all wattage posts on this forum reference "raw watts" instead of w/kg. W/kg is the measure that is relative. The relationship of watts to drag is what makes someone even faster. That was my inference when I said the trick is to produce the least amount of watts to yield the fastest time.
I totally agree with you on this.

Wow, is Challenge Barcelona a full 180K or is it a bit short?

Thanks on the grammar help! :)

I found this thread very interesting since I did my first race with a powermeter in IMCOZ and looking forward for next season to improve...

Here's my numbers from my powertap zipp 808, I was riding a zipp 404 front and aero helmet (Giro advantage 2)

Time 5:09:31
Distance: 183.64 km (Yes the course is long...) translate to a 5:03:23 on 112mi
Avg speed: 35.56 km/h
Avg power: 220watts
Norm power: 230watts
Watts/kg: 3.5

Height: 5'6
Weight: 140lbs (I feel fat by reading people numbers)

So getting back to this thread riding a sub 5h on 200 watts... how the hell are you guys doing??? Because if a could save 20 watts that would probably improve my run... Is it most about losing weight? Or you guys riding super agressive setup...

Time 4:56
Distance: 181.2 km
Avg speed: 37.4 km/h
Avg power: 192 watts

Height: 5'11
Weight: 131 lbs

Roth

SRM pro wired

Height: 5'7"
Weight: 165lbs (I obviously AM fat by reading peoples numbers)

As was said earlier in a flat course it's more watts/CdA than watts/Kg what really matters.

I did IMCoz this year: 5:09:31 bike split with 160ap/164np.

Race weigth around 66kg/145lb, Height 1.71m/5'7"

Bike: Cervelo P4 - Zipp Vuka (15cm/6"drop) - Zipp 808 PowerTap, RP Syton Open

My SWAG is I would needed less than 180watts to go under 5hs in those conditions.

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Ale Martinez
www.amtriathlon.com

If I did IM I could go under 5 with less than 200 watts. Most likely I wouldn't run well after that since my FTP last summer was ~225.

I've got several HIM's under 2:30 with well under 200 watts.

At Halfmax I did 2:22 on 192 watts
At TTTNC the weekend afterwards I did 57 miles in 2:32 at 174 watts

jaretj

OK. I’ll bite (and get ridiculed). IM Florida – average power 173 watts, NP of 180. Time of 4:57. Would I post this if I honestly thought it was drafting? No. Will you doubt it? Yes. My time is a function of riding a draft legal race. I came out of the water in 1:11 and had a really slow T1. For the first 55 miles, I slingshotted past probably 500 bikers and got passed by only one cyclist. I was flying. I averaged over 23 MPH. Average power was 186 and NP was 190. For the second half I averaged 160 watts at a little under 23 MPH, but I rode in a group for about 20 miles (draft legal) and had a huge tail wind going into PCB so I could coast and easily keep good speed.

Coming out of the water later and having a slower T1 was a huge benefit since I could pass 30% of the field. Let’s face it, I could ride up to someone’s wheel, pass them, and get on the next wheel.

My equipment was a P4, Zipp 808 front, Hed Jet disk rear. Bonty R4 aeros front and back with Bonty latex tubes. Single bottle on the aero bars and single bottle hidden behind rear saddle. Specialized TT helmet. Tight fitting clothes. Cables hidden neatly.

FWIW. My last race rehearsal before IM FL I rode about 21 MPH on a similar wattage but without any aero gear, different powertap, by myself (ie no drafting), and a ton of water bottles on the bike. I’m 5’10 and raced at 164 pounds. Semi muscular build but relatively good position. I basically bought all the “free” speed I can. I rather have a higher power output and a slower ride, but know that I untapped potential.

Damn! I am the same height and 70 lbs heavier!!! Starting tomorrow I am going to lobby for wrestling to be added as the 4th event. I think I may be competitive.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

aprox. 180.5km from T1 rack to T2 rack (the same)

measured by several people

alvaro
planetaTri.com

Please man....spare us from this. Last time you said you hit 800W accelerating from a stop sign, now you're going sub 5 hours on an IM split on account of being able to go sub 2:30 at a half Ironman. You realize that these two are completely different animals. Please come back and post your wattage from an IM sub 5 once you have done a sub 5 in an Ironman. Just because you can do sub 2:30 at a half does not mean you can do sub 5 at a full. I know a bunch of guys who have done 2:15's on legit courses in Half IM's who have not broken 5 hours at the full IM.

Next, let's discount all the folks going sub 5 at IM Florida, because a sub 5 there even with legal racing and slingshotting does not even qualify as sub 5 on a legit course from where we can use the sub 200W for 5 hour claim. Could most of these guys head out the door on a closed course with no one on it and do a sub 5 solo? I think not. Here is the best guage. A rider like Dirk Boeckel goes 4:37 in Florida (solo) after riding 4:30ish in a legal group in Kona . Meanwhile age groupers are doing 5 hour rides in Florida (let's say in legal groups), and are 50-70 min slower than Dirk in Kona (partly in legal groups, partly solo). Why did the spread suddenly go from 23 minutes to double or triple that?

Let's use something like Sesel in Austria. He backed up the Austria result with a 5:04 in Kona and also killed the bike course at Tristar Monaco....at least you know that this guy can turn the pedals on his own. A guy who is aero can also climb like Schleck (age group version) is the real deal.

Alex (MTL), 220W for you at Cozumel seems really high. I've seen your position and it really is not that bad and your bike gear is OK to....at least not enough to cost you 20-30W over other guys of your size doing a 5:03. Putting it into perspective, that's 220W for 2:31 half IM split. I don't know how windy it was, but off 220W, I would think you can do 2:20-2:25 in a half IM or 4:4x in a full IM. By the way, congrats on your race. Great job....so close to sub 10!

Just out of interest, do you have any bike splits and wattages from other races like Lanzarote, IMFrance, Roth/Austria/Switzerland. That's pretty low for such a fast time (faster than 40 kph). Is the course loop, or point to point (can make a huge diff). Just interesting in comparing the courses. For example Marcel Zamora was around 30 minutes faster overall at Barcelona than Kona (2007) and IM France, with most of it on the bike.

5h06 at LZ on 2010, exceptionally good conditions, no PT

4h48 at Austria 2008 with 200w, but with different position/equipment. on a very rainy day

Marcel Zamora is an exceptional cyclist on hilly courses, but he doesn't perform at the same level on flat courses. Challenge 2009 was his best bike leg ever on a flat course, but he has always underperformed in Kona (his swim is not good enough without a wetsuit and he misses the train)

alvaro
planetaTri.com

This thread is about going under 5 hours on under 200W. If you can go under 2:30 on less than 200W then you can go under 5 hours on the same wattage.

And why is 800W accelerating from a stop sign a big deal? I doubt I know any Cat 4 or above bike racer who can't do that.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

Well, the OP's original post just said "thoughts", so I guess it is open to what our thoughts are.

"This thread is about going under 5 hours on under 200W. If you can go under 2:30 on less than 200W then you can go under 5 hours on the same wattage. "

No arguement there....of course it means you have to PUT OUT THE SAME WATTAGE FOR DOUBLE THE LENGTH OF RIDE AFTER DOUBLE THE LENGTH OF SWIM WITH DOUBLE THE LENGTH OF RUN AFTERWARDS....but this is ST, so people can claim whatever they want.

Jaret is saying that he can do sub 5 hours in an IM on less than 200W. I'm saying that I doubt he can do sub 5 in an IM (I really don't care what his wattage is....it could be 150, it could be 250, he should come back after he actually does it). I'm cool with his half IM bike splits and wattages are, just don't claim you can do a 5 hour IM bike split on the internet until you can point us to an actual race result where it was achieved.....this is why I pointed out his 800W acceleration from a stop sign...he said he could do it, I asked to see the power file, he then said that he "thought" he could do it, but actually never did. This falls into the same category of internet hero claim. Maybe I need to call over Uli to play his role of ST bullshit police.

a few posts above that, MTL said he did 5:03 (for 180K) at Cozumel on 220W. MTL is a very strong cyclists and he has something like 10 IM's under his belt , is a strong age group swimmer, with a very decent position with good equipment and has never gone sub 5 (I'm thinking that MTL has a bit of miscalibration)....so to Jaret, come back when you've done it and post the actual split.

Agreed about Zamora.

Would you say that the Barcelona bike course is ~ 15 minutes quicker than Austria (if both were similar days)?

I don't think so, I produced 9 more watts with better eqipment and position on a better day in Barcelona and went 19 minutes faster. I think in the same conditions I could produce a 4h35 split in Austria.

Austria is very fast, short steep climbs followed by long gradual descents, very good asphalt, mostly sheltered by trees, just a couple of sharp turns.

Barcelona is fast but tough mentally, no rest, no chance to get of the aerobars... easy to produce a decent split on little effort but hard to get the best out of you.

alvaro
planetaTri.com

So true! Regardless, 5 hours is just a number. There's no point in chasing it if it's unattainable. I couldn't care less if I went 5:01 and was targeting sub-5. Always best to stick to the wattage you can manage and the time will take care of itself.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

One more thing about Zamora and Kona front pack swim group. He's pretty short with a short torso, all of which are a disadvantage when swimming against most of the guys in that pack who are 4-8 inches taller, with longer arms and long torso. I'm also guessing that his focus on mountain events where he can dominate probably leads to less time focus on "rouleur style" aerobar training!

So Barcelona vs Austria ~ 5-7 minutes for same wattage and same equipment?

Ivan Rana is smaller/shorter torso than Marcel and he can swim pretty fast, Javier Gomez is only a couple cms taller. Marcel just doesnt have a swimming background, but a big engine is good enough to put you in a second group in an Ironman with a wetsuit.

Marcel has tried to improve his flat ridding, but he just loves ridding mountains, and he has managed his career in a very inteligent way to benefit from his strengths.

yeah, 5-7 minutes in a good day, but if it's windy that would favour Austria and it could end up being faster

alvaro
planetaTri.com

When you pass away you really should donate your brain to science so your thought patterns and rationalization can perhaps be studied and understood. How you arrive at some of your conclusions is really beyond me (and a few others from the responses you get).

How it usually goes from here is people present many examples to shoot down your inspiring theory above, you try to back away from it claiming to be a victim, then finally you ask that we all agree to disagree.

Use your head before you type such nonsense.

This depends on a lot of variables. Course, weight, the power meter you have, drafting (hopefully none), wind, and many others. If you are in the 120-140 lb range and relatively short, it is possible. Also, like I said your powermeter can be off. I swear my SRM is off as it constantly reads 10 or so watts less than my Powertap (usually this is the other way around). So if you are new to powermeters, keep in mind this can be a problem - underestimated power values.

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Running is the best source of fiber that I know of...

What is the point of the vitriol? The question was: is it possible to do sub-5 on < 200 watts? I take that to mean: "is there some combination of position/weight/course where that's acheivable?" Answering with experience from racing a 1/2 is perfectly valid. If an individual is able cover the 56 miles in under 2:30 using less than 200 watts, then physics says they will go sub-5 for 112 miles on the same power. Could the person actually hold the wattage for an IM? Who knows? Who the hell cares? It's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

It's certainly possible. I'm just an internet hero/poser, but I've done Austin 70.3 the last two years in 2:29:33 and 2:27:19 on 190 and 192 watts AP, respectively. I've also done 2:27:00 on 183 watts AP at the very flat Lonestar 70.3 in Galveston. I'm not a stick, either: 5'8", 162-165 lbs.

Check back with me in May to see if it holds up for an IM. I plan on being able to hold around 190 watts, but the physics might get tired and slow me down.

Well, I know Jaret, so I'm calling him on his claim that he thinks he can do sub 5. I don't really care at what wattage...as I said, I'm OK with his half IM claims, and he falls right in line with what both trichis and I have posted....he's a pretty small guy, so completely achievable.

As for you going sub 5, it's always possible to hold your IM pace for double the distance...it just means elevating fitness. To hold 190W for your IM after holding 190W after your half IM....just raise your FTP by around 20% and you're golden. My assumption that if you did 190W for a half IM, your FTP should be around 225W....so you just need to jack it up to around 260-270 range to ride safely at 190ish. Are you part way there now? You're looking at getting your FTP watts per kg up to 3.67

Next, let's discount all the folks going sub 5 at IM Florida, because a sub 5 there even with legal racing and slingshotting does not even qualify as sub 5 on a legit course from where we can use the sub 200W for 5 hour claim.

Are there any other IM courses we should discount?

I have gone under 2'20 on less than 200 watts but since I haven't really gone under 5' in an IM (my one and only IM doesn't count, IMFL) then I can't use the argument jaretj tried to make either.

The OP simply asked the question and listed no constraints, so the answer to his question is yes it can be done. On the right course, in the right conditions and while riding legal. Do I presume or suggest that I can ride sub 5' in Kona on less than 200 watts, no. Or, maybe I am confused and you could tell me how many watts I actually rode and how fast I finished.

I can't tell you how many watts you rode but I don't think we should be using IM Florida or Clearwater as proof of what splits can be achieved off what wattages. This is you from Clearwater right?
STEVEN BLAND
BIB AGE STATE/COUNTRY PROFESSION 1147 43 LAKE IN THE HIL IL USA Administrator SWIM BIKE RUN OVERALL RANK DIV.POS. 34:33 2:12:29 1:32:37 4:24:33 365 291
LEG DISTANCE PACE RANK DIV.POS. TOTAL SWIM 1.2 mi. (34:33) 1:49/100m 938 840
BIKE SPLIT 1 25.2 mi. (59:37) 25.36 mph BIKE SPLIT 2 17 mi. (--:--) -- mph BIKE SPLIT 3 13.8 mi. (2:49:55) 4.87 mph TOTAL BIKE 22 56 mi. (2:12:29) 25.36 mph
RUN SPLIT 1 3.5 mi. (23:08) 6:36/mile RUN SPLIT 2 3 mi. (20:21) 6:47/mile RUN SPLIT 3 3.6 mi. (25:59) 7:13/mile RUN SPLIT 4 3 mi. (23:09) 7:43/mile TOTAL RUN 13.1 mi. (1:32:37) 7:04/mile 365 291 TRANSITION TIME T1: SWIM-TO-BIKE 2:53 T2: BIKE-TO-RUN 2:01

We ALL know that you were the ONLY person that raced Clearwater and didn't draft...

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I'm sorry that I offended you.

I was pointing out that it is possible for someone to do it under 200 watts, not that I could do it and run well afterwards.

jaretj

Jaret, no question that a guy your size can go sub 5 in an IM off 200W. That's not really a question that we're debating. I read into it that thought you could do a 5 hour ride. The comment came across like you could, but I guess that is not what you meant. Sorry.

Paulo, note that I never submitted a Clearwater wattages to show what may or may not be possible over 180K, because clearly the times I get off my wattages over the last 2 years do not translate to equivalent IM derated splits. Even if a person that does that course 100% legal, there is always a benefit from the cars passing in the lane beside the riders, rider differential, catching slower riders in waves in the front, and passing cyclists from the wave behind. So taking a Clearwater time and associated wattages would give people the wrong impression of what is achievable on a flat course with little rider density be it in a full IM or half IM.

Dev

I did the bike leg of a half ironman in 2:22 on a hilly course with an avg power of 187 and norm power of 201.

Not the most aero position you'll see out there, but I'm just 5'7" and raced that day at about 145#. Aero bike, disk rear plus H3 front, aero helmet.

I am not interested in a pissing match on an internet forum nor am I trying to paint myself as some fantastic athlete, simply replying to a post as to the possibility of the question asked. Thanks for posting my results from Clearwater 09, I was rather disappointed, not the race I had hoped for. However, the sub 2'20 split I was referring to wasn't from Clearwater but races done this year. Why would you assume I was referring to Clearwater? Again, which courses should we consider if it is possible to ride sub 5' under 200 watts.

Alvaro covered it. Zamora's size does not have much, if anything, to do with his swim performance in Kona. It has to do with the wetsuit.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Hey Dev, if memory serves, weren't you a long time holdout to even training with power?... and now you're an expert not only on your own numbers, but everyone else's, all based on your own biases and data?

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Ummm .... I think that's exactly what's being debated?

Steve,

Lots of guys come on the internet and make claims. That's fine. People are welcome to claim whatever they want. Conversely people can also question the claims. I'm just saying that I'm not buying into any IM Florida or Clearwater wattage vs bike split claim. If you'd like to be more convincing, sure, a time, from another race would be great. A jpeg of a power file would be better. A position picture would also be great, just like Sesel did (posted Kona, Austria, Monaco race reports on this forum and also provided position pictures, complete with height/weight and equipment info).

Terra-man, not claiming to be an expert. I'm just asking for more information, so that I can learn from how some guys go so fast off less power. MTL asked for more information on what he should do to get faster off 220W. Sesel and others have given us some good information, many have re iterated the issue of calibration (ex Trichris) as has Rappstar in the past....and if you've seen Jaret, there is no question that if he can hold 200W on a flat course for 5 hours, he'd cover 180K (Unless he sat up all the way). 200W for Jaret would be way up in the range of 3.1 to 3.2 W per kilo! That's in the range of what Sesel has done for his IM's.

EDIT: Just to be clear about IM Florida or Clearwater, I'm saying that it is possible at both events to have very fast times with very low wattages and doing the races legally without drafting. The course profile and rider densities at both events, really don't make them representative of what the same rider can achieve on courses that have much less rider density, even if the course is flat, with the same wattages. Hopefully that clarifies my views on these events.

Dev