So for the race 3.75L of liquid on the bike and 2.6L on the run so around 6L ?

I'm assuming that the RD's from Frankfurt and Roth have been calling Rappstar to participate in the yearly sub 8 hour brigade next summer!

I wish In N Out would come to the east coast. We have 5 Guys which is as good as it gets here, but it ain't no In N Out.

But WHERE are the PEANUT BUTTER PANDA PUFFS? Why risk the entire race with the change away from the pre-race Triple P?

Luckily, Panda Puff consumption is cumulative and Rapp probably built up a good base.

---

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David Roche
"The Happy Runner" book: https://www.amazon.com/...Longer/dp/1492567647
Coaching: https://swaprunning.com/

Brian,

My race nutrition is very similar to Rappstar, but I continue to suck. Is it true that if I eat him, I will become him? :)

Honestly, though, that is a pretty solid plan and it's encouraging to see that mine is rather similar in composition - but closer to 300 cal/hr in average intake. Now all I need is the unwavering devotion, raw talent, and precise training to become a complete superstar. Props again to Rappstar and his team on another sound victory.

---

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

I'm amazed by the amount of salt that he took specially during the run.

Is it really necessary to everybody or is this something that you guys found out that he specifically needs ?

I sweat a lot, so I believe I loose a large amount of sodium and potassium also, but except for an IM in 2005 that I did , I never took salt capsules...

Does this make a lot of difference ?

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Luiz Eng

Brian, sorry for the dumb question but how would you break down the caloric intake on the bike? Take a little of this every 15 min., take a little of that every 15 min? I'm a big guy (190 lbs.-heavy sweater) and been trying forever to nail down a good plan for the bike.

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RunFAR Racing Services
http://www.Run-far.com
Team Cambridge
Hilltop Bicycle Repair

nothing like some free advertisement for your program :)

---

Member HED, Cervelo, De Soto Mafia

Luiz (& others),

I'll get back to you later today when I'm back online as I'm out of the office today (didn't want you to think I'm avoiding the questions....just not going to be online for most of the day).

The long & short answer to your question is Jordan's electrolyte intake is through the roof, arguably the highest I have ever seen. Even athletes w/ ridiculously high sweat rates or quantified high electrolyte loss, generally have an intake roughly 1/2 of his (w/ regards to Jordan's 2g /hr intake on the run). With that....please re-read one of the 1st lines in this report: "if it's not broken, don't fix it." Jordan is not a guy who does things haphazardly & his intake strategy is a direct result of MUCH trial & error & not simply a suggestion made by me or anyone else. He's experimented w/ very high & very low intake strategies & settled in on these targets for 1 reason - it's what works for HIM. This hardly means that to have success at the 1/2 or IM distance you need to replicate this EXACT strategy.

For example, we posted the nutritional report of Matias Palavecino from the RI 70.3 where he went 4:04 (posted here). You'll notice he had a FANTASTIC race at just 439mg of sodium per hour. It doesn't make one stratey right or wrong, just individual to that athlete.

I'm sure Jordan will check into this thread at some point & I'll be back online later to field any other Q's.

---

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

"I'm amazed by the amount of salt that he took specially during the run."

this turns out to be fairly typical of many or most of the top athletes, and has been for 15 years or better. i think it would be interesting to poll the top 10 men at hawaii, and ask them everything they use: bikes, wheels, tires, run shoes, nutritional products, etc., and i wouldn't be surprised if saltstick isn't the product they most have in common.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Brian, what you are forgetting (or at least not saying) is that electrolyte intake for a half Ironman can be a lot lower rate than a full Ironman. This is simply because you are not racing long enough to deplete enough Na to put your body into a Na deficit if you take in a moderate amount. So comparing the electrolyte intake of athlete 1 in a 4:04 half Ironman is a different beast compared to athlete 2 in an 8:13 event. You need to compare 2 athletes doing a full IM in similar environmental conditions with similar body weight.

I must have over looked something because BACON was no where on this post at all!! As someone else stated the one thing I was shocked about was the amount of salt tabs taken in on the run. I take in more on the bike than I do on the run, but then again I am no expert. I think I will start experimenting with some things next year, but then again like your quote states"If it aint broke, dont fix it" or something to that effect.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Brad....all that salt = Bacon on race day without the fat. By now you guys should have figured that out. Are you back in Turkey keeping the boys landing with the rubber side down?

Dev,

I'm not sure I completely agree as I have seen some exceptional performances when an athlete simply replicates their hourly electrolyte intake strategies from a 1/2, in a full IM (assuming similar conditions). Often we do increase the hourly electrolyte intake for a full, but I wouldn't say that it's a component which always needs to be increased when going from a 1/2 to a full.

My point of drawing a comparison from Jordan's strategy to Matias', is that the electrolyte intake strategies are MASSIVELY different. Even if I agreed w/ you fully on an increased hourly intake, going from a 1/2 to a full would hardly represent a 400-500% difference which is what we're seeing in these (2) reports. Again, I'm not disagreeing w/ you that it's not done, but in my experience, I don't automatically increase hourly electrolyte intake when going from a 1/2 to a full.

Time to punch out, catch-up w/ you guys later!

---

---

Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Calories:1504 (347 per hour)

Calories: 1073* (370 per hour)

These numbers surprise me. They seem really high. I guess maybe one
thing that good endurance athletes can do is take in more calories than
us mortals.

I know I have a hard time getting down about 300 calories an hour on
the bike, and I suspect my intensity levels are much lower than Rappstars.

-Jot

 
Nutrition is trainable and you can train your body to absore more calorie. The intensity of a pro racing isnt much higher than yours if you finish in 9-10h. If you finish in more than 11h,you should then take even more calories each hours.

We are all different but i do see lots of pro in the 3-400cal/h range on the bike. Where i m suprise is on the run, i wonder if Brian might have overestimated the amount of gatorade and coke that jordan drank??? 370cal/h seems very high....

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Nutrition is trainable and you can train your body to absore more calorie. The intensity of a pro racing isnt much higher than yours if you finish in 9-10h. If you finish in more than 11h,you should then take even more calories each hours.

Interesting. I need to think about this. Thanks.

We are all different but i do see lots of pro in the 3-400cal/h range on the bike. Where i m suprise is on the run, i wonder if Brian might have overestimated the amount of gatorade and coke that jordan drank??? 370cal/h seems very high....

Yeah, when i saw it was more calories/hour on the run than the bike that seemed odd.

-Jot

"If you finish in more than 11h,you should then take even more calories each hours."

calorie absorption is trainable, maybe, but, up to a point. somebody in his AZ race report mentioned hurling at mile-15 of the run (i don't remember whose post i was reading). if you take in more calories than you can absorb, i don't see what good can come of this, and the eventual hurl is the probable outcome.

mark allen said he thought he was uptaking 550cal/hr, and that's very high, and he thinks he trained himself to that rate. but i think one of the big differentiators in athletes is calorie uptake. if you just aren't able to uptake more tha 300cal/hr, i don't see what good it's going to do you to eat more than this. rather, i think they're finishing in over 11hr, they might want to eat less than this (per hour), if the reason they're finishing in 12hr is because they can't uptake as much as you or jorday can.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

slowman

no, i would not advise to take more calorie than you can absorbe.

but looking at a lot of 13-15h finisher, seems to me like they stop during the race...walk a lot and the intensity level is definitely not in the 75-80% of threshold window that pro race at for a 8h race. So, they do have better condition to absorbs there calories.... better fill up the tank. But yes, no point in taking more than you can absorbs.


I think the biggest point is, trainable.... you need to practice it a lot in training because when you finally understand the relationship between intensity and calorie absorption, nutritional problem disappear

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

People have criticized me about how much I eat on a HIM run. I eat a gel every 2 to 2.5 miles and just water to drink. That gives me 300 to 375 per hour at 8 min/miles.

Now I don't feel so feel so self conscious :)

jaretj

This looks like a solid nutrition plan although i do see one minor problem: the lack of bacon availability at in-n-out!

(Whilst Five guys is really no comparison to in-n-out - they do have a bacon option for optimal recovery...)

---

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Small change. I think the bike cals are off.

My drink bottles = 204 cals per bottle = 408 total for 2 bottles
400 cals EFS flask
300 cals Gu Roctane
3.75 24oz Gatorade EDGE bottles* 150cals = 562.5cals

1670cals total

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Can you let me know how i can get to atleast 160lbs ? we have a similar bulid and i am 179lbs.

what does your daily diet consist of ?

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_________________________________________________

Am I right in assuming that those two bottles were meant to last until your special needs?

Or did you just keep those for the duration of the bike and supplement with the on-course Gatorade?

Another question(s), why do you add Gu to your EFS mix? Is it a flavor issue?

Wow! That is so interesting. I had no idea this amount of salt was being taken.

I think triathlon has missed a major potential sponsor:

Rapp and Allen might be able to take in well over 350 calories an hour, but for most AGers, GI issues are created by taking in more than 250-300/hr. Why has nobody addressed the reverse of what you are saying... training the body to burn fat more efficiently over a longer period of time? Bob Seebohar has shown some very promising results using this theory with some of his athletes, as have I.

---

Ryan Riell
Head Coach/Founder
Break Through Multisport Inc.
http://www.BreakThroughMultisport.com
Ryan@BreakThroughMultisport.com

- They are bookends. The between-the-aerobars bottle is meant for the start. And the aerobottle is meant for the end. Gatorade in between. Special needs is if I drop a bottle. I don't plan to stop there.

- I assume you mean ClifShot. It's for the caffeine. PreRace is too strong to microdose, IMO.

EDIT: unless you mean Gu Roctane, in which case it's because I think it's the second best gel out there and it can be taped to the aerobars, allowing me to start the ride with 1200 calories on the frame without needing to stop for a new flask of EFS.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Your bones might be heavier than mine. I've ALWAYS been light. I could ask you how to get to 179, because I tried, and never even came close...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Thanks for getting back to me!

So do you use those bookends at all, or just in emergencies?

I've never used the Gatorade on the bike course, but if I can lighten my load a bit, I'll try it.

Is the Gatorade sufficient enough, with the addition of Saltstick caps?

BTW, Great race! You've got me looking into an S-Works Transition for next year

Always drink them.

Gatorade is pretty good. It's very adequate for racing with added SaltStick.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

As always - Excellent write up! And Congrats on the awesome result!

I notice that besides the BCAA's and glutamine in the EFS, minimal protein intake.
Question: What is the source of caffeine on the bike nutrition? Roctane (3 @ 35mg) + Cliffshot (1.33 @ 55mg)= 178mg (I remember reading that Jordan was looking to supplement some additional caffeine.)

Why has nobody addressed the reverse of what you are saying... training the body to burn fat more efficiently over a longer period of time? Bob Seebohar has shown some very promising results using this theory with some of his athletes, as have I.

Because there is no science I'm aware of to back that assertion up?

How can you tell if one of your athletes is "burning fat"?

-Jot

There is a TON of science to back this up... you get them into an exercise physiology lab and have them do a simple RER (Respiratory Exchange Ratio) also known as metabolic efficiency. Is the same basic setup as a VO2, but a little different protocol, nowhere near max effort. Out pops numbers and there you go.

---

Ryan Riell
Head Coach/Founder
Break Through Multisport Inc.
http://www.BreakThroughMultisport.com
Ryan@BreakThroughMultisport.com

I know this is a nutrition report, but do you not take any water on the bike?

Thanks
Ewan

---

Ewan

-------------------------

I agree entirely about the sodium Dan.

I was actually thinking he wold be in the vicinty of 800-1100 mg's per hour, but wow , that is high.
I live and train in South East Asia where it it is impertive to be on top of your electrolytes or suffer severe consequences.

I thought I was on the high side myself , ingesting 900-1000 during IM and HIM events.
During IM Canada this year I lowered my sodium consumption to 700mg's per hour even.

Anyway , great info thanks to Jordan and his team for posting it.

A bit disappointed with the limited amount of bacon in the pre-race breakfast............will Canada allow him back in :)


Dan your idea of top pro's nutritional breakdown on race day ( and th day prior as well ) would be very informative and educational , no doubt. Hopefully some read and post. Or perhaps Herbert and Jay can get a complilation through interviews ?

Cheers,

Terry

---

"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

I always have been skinny until I quit multisports 14 years ago and then the weight went on, I guess I just keep plugging away, i have gone from 215 to 179 in 1 1/2 years, maybe next year.

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_________________________________________________

Dev- Yeah back in Turkey and I am in a class right now so not as much time to be on ST. But O well its only 4 weeks long and then I will be back to the real world and making sure they are landing rubber side down. Hope you made it back home alright and enjoy the holiday season.

---

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

There is a TON of science to back this up.

Pubmed citations or other peer reviewed citations?

-Jot

No water. I cramp in my stomach almost immediately if I drink water. When I drink water during training, I always take salt or gel first.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Why not just add table salt to to the bottles? Why does it need to be salt stick?

Two reasons:
- *some* table salt has other things you don't want, like iodine, in it.
- the other three electrolytes - calcium, magnesium, potassium (salt provides just sodium and chloride) - are also very important. SaltStick contains all five electrolytes (technically, there are six if you include zinc, but you can't take large doses of zinc as it is very toxic, unlike sodium, for example, which your kidneys flush quite easily) in a ratio that approximates typical human sweat (obviously some people sweat out more of one or the other).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

hi, congratulations on the second win, i got to ask though, as someone who seems to care much about their nutrition and health to the point that you cut out gluten and dairy (which i agree are good ideas) i find it interesting that you turn your body into a human supplement and salt factory, you take 1800% vitamin E before a race? every study says that vitamin E supplementation either does nothing or is actually dangerous, also the fact that you 3 - 5 time the amount of sodium as most, i would question why you need that much, is it because you eat so much salt in your regular diet that your body needs mega doses in race too? a lot of people on here seem to think that being a triathlete somehow exempts them from the fact that salt is unhealthy

And where are you getting that I take 1800% of the RDA of Vitamin E? As far as I can tell, I take only what is in Multi-V, which is 200IU. Yes, that is 675% of the RDA per dose (not 1800%), but that's also not accounting for what is optimal for an endurance athlete. I.e., it's 675% of the RDA for the baseline. The RDA is also generally regarded as the minimum of what you need to NOT GET SICK, not necessarily what is optimal in terms of BEING HEALTHY. The Vitamin E study that was done was done, IIRC, with well more than 200IU.

Why is salt unhealthy? Salt in and of itself is not inherently unhealthy by any means.

But the real issue with addressing whether or not salt or "excess" vitamins is unhealthy with regards to Ironman "nutrition" is that Ironman itself is inherently unhealthy. Especially at the highest level. High level athletics is about performance, not about health. How many world class athletes do you know that exceed the national average for lifespan? Most of them are on the short end. So I would say that what I'm doing is not something that's particularly good for me, and it's a massive load, and so I think it's perfectly reasonable to do certain things from a supplementation standpoint to offset that. The FDA did not set vitamin RDAs or salt recommendations based around the physiology of elite athletes. And they especially did not base them around elite athletes WHEN THEY ARE RACING. I wish I could find it, but a study I read a while back equated the tissue damage to elite level marathoners after a race with post-traumatic surgery patients.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

The FDA did not set vitamin RDAs or salt recommendations based around the physiology of elite athletes. And they especially did not base them around elite athletes WHEN THEY ARE RACING

Exactly. And, they are set on a 2000 calorie diet. I'm willing to bet you take in more than 2000 a day. You can't even compare the needs of the average lazy person to what Jordan does or even what you and I do.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Largely, yes they are drinking too much water. Plenty of science has been done on this - real science not just science that has been passed across the marketing desk before being released.

On another note - everytime I quote, my reply ends up inside the quotation, how do I avoid that?

 

And where are you getting that I take 1800% of the RDA of Vitamin E? As far as I can tell, I take only what is in Multi-V, which is 200IU. Yes, that is 675% of the RDA per dose (not 1800%), but that's also not accounting for what is optimal for an endurance athlete. I.e., it's 675% of the RDA for the baseline. The RDA is also generally regarded as the minimum of what you need to NOT GET SICK, not necessarily what is optimal in terms of BEING HEALTHY. The Vitamin E study that was done was done, IIRC, with well more than 200IU.

Why is salt unhealthy? Salt in and of itself is not inherently unhealthy by any means.

But the real issue with addressing whether or not salt or "excess" vitamins is unhealthy with regards to Ironman "nutrition" is that Ironman itself is inherently unhealthy. Especially at the highest level. High level athletics is about performance, not about health. How many world class athletes do you know that exceed the national average for lifespan? Most of them are on the short end. So I would say that what I'm doing is not something that's particularly good for me, and it's a massive load, and so I think it's perfectly reasonable to do certain things from a supplementation standpoint to offset that. The FDA did not set vitamin RDAs or salt recommendations based around the physiology of elite athletes. And they especially did not base them around elite athletes WHEN THEY ARE RACING. I wish I could find it, but a study I read a while back equated the tissue damage to elite level marathoners after a race with post-traumatic surgery patients.[/reply]
you may be either unaware of what is in the products you are taking or the person that wrote your nutrition report got it wrong, he stated you took two scoops of ultragen, which according to the link, contains 1250% vitamin e, plus you took the multivitamin which contains 675% vitamin E, so you actually took 1925% vitamin E, my point on it was that studies show vitamin e supplementation either does nothing or is dangerous, and i agree with you that endurance athletes are going to need more vitamin e than most, but still, the supplementation studies show it does nothing for you, so while i take no vitamin, but eat 2 -3 servings of almonds, and 1 -2 servings a day of broccoli and spinach, i am absorbing more vitamin e than someone taking a pill,

for the salt question, Dynamic Duo answered it perfectly, that plus now Noakes and Friel are saying we need way less sodium in training and races than was once thought, you may need that much though, i dont know, i was just asking how you got to the point where you needed that much

you may be either unaware of what is in the products you are taking or the person that wrote your nutrition report got it wrong, he stated you took two scoops of ultragen, which according to the link, contains 1250% vitamin e, plus you took the multivitamin which contains 675% vitamin E, so you actually took 1925% vitamin E, my point on it was that studies show vitamin e supplementation either does nothing or is dangerous, and i agree with you that endurance athletes are going to need more vitamin e than most, but still, the supplementation studies show it does nothing for you, so while i take no vitamin, but eat 2 -3 servings of almonds, and 1 -2 servings a day of broccoli and spinach, i am absorbing more vitamin e than someone taking a pill,

for the salt question, Dynamic Duo answered it perfectly, that plus now Noakes and Friel are saying we need way less sodium in training and races than was once thought, you may need that much though, i dont know, i was just asking how you got to the point where you needed that much[/reply]

No, you are right. I'm just not used to taking Ultragen in the morning before a race, so I forgot to include that. In any case, the studies on vitamin E were done on relatively sedentary (aka "average" folks). I am not aware of studies either way on "excess" vitamin E supplementation for endurance athletes. I also eat a lot of almonds (I eat a LOT of nuts) and broccoli and spinach and generally high quality foods.

I don't consider what Joe Friel says about salt (or much of anything else) to be anything tat I'd listen to, but that's neither here nor there. Noakes, on the other hand, has an active research background that lends him some credibility, but even Noakes is certainly not without his critics.

I actually ate a relatively low sodium diet. But what I do know is that I used to cramp a lot during races. Once I started supplementing with electrolytes, it stopped. Nothing else changed. And the same thing happens now if I don't supplement with electrolytes.

I believe in having your foundation in REAL food. I don't look at supplements as a replacement for a balanced diet; I look at them the way I think they ought to be looked at - as SUPPLEMENTS. I also would say that once you start talking about high-level athletics of any sort - where performance, not necessarily health is the primary focus - things change drastically.

As JenHS said, should I also abide by a 2000 calorie a day diet? I don't have huge faith in the FDA. This is the same group that gave us the "Food Pyramid." Just what we need - maximum daily servings of refined grains!

Ultimately, I think you and I probably think more alike than differently. I just think it's difficult - though not impossible - to really replenish what you give up solely by eating raw ingredients. So I suppose I'm willing to be a bit of a pragmatist on some of these things.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Jordan,

can you elaborate a little more on this " No water. I cramp in my stomach almost immediately if I drink water. When I drink water during training, I always take salt or gel first."

I have been noticing a bit of the same issue more so since its become hot out. Any suggestions? I used 1st End. stuff as well. but cant use gatorade

Not sure what I can elaborate on. Take a gel or salt before you drink straight water. But if there is a different focus I can help with, lemme know. Just not sure what kind of elaboration I can give beyond that.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Just looking at the caffeine intake here. Equivalent to approx one caffeinated power bar gel per hour? Anyone have issues with using caffeine from the start of the bike? Is this a common approach? I tend to wait until about 70 miles in before I take the first one.

I take caffeine before the start of the swim - prerace - and that seems to last me all day (or at least until I get to the run and get coke).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

sounds like he is trying to figure out the other caffeine intake like the Clif stuff as well as the roctanes..I think.

I love when it is recognized that this excess in training is counter-productive to good health and also when the athlete recognizes that they are doing it purely for the joy in performance. In my opinion, this shows real self awareness. I think the healthiest people I have come across are the ones that are 70 years old, never smoked, eat a balanced diet, have consistent sleep patterns, healthy relationships and do a daily brisk walk (ideally some weight training thrown into the fitness mix also). They never seem to be fitness fanatics. In fact, I was chatting to a friend today about this and we were talking about how fanatical runners (marathoners) and intense cyclists never seem to age well (face seems to show the stress - eyes and skin).

In regards to elite marathoners, I believe the article stated something to the effect that when racing, they shown the same physical symptoms as a person undergoing a heart attack.

Makes me wonder a lot on what the ideal stress point is for health.

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Ah, I've never really sat down and calculated "I need Xmg of caffeine." I try not to get too much at once, but I figure that the sum total of caffeine that I'll take during the day is not going to be a ton since the only really big dose is the PreRace. So I don't have a good guideline, mostly because in my experience - unlike with salt/calories/fluids - it's not like there is a magic number for caffeine.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

totally, very interesting to see an accurate and detailed account of intake. i will be bookmarking this thread.

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TEAM GREEN
SWIM - CYCLE - RUN - VEGAN

Same study. I *think* it was CPK levels. To quote Medline, "When the total CPK level is very high, it usually means there has been injury or stress to the heart, the brain, or muscle tissue. I think CPK levels after a marathon are reasonably similar to after a heart attack. I believe that was the findings of the study.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Jordan - What do you use to carry your salt tabs on the run?

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_____________________________

"In life we don't regret the things we do, but for lack of courage the things we don't" - Anonymous

My dad did some VC work for the guy who makes the containers that M&M minis come in -

So i have a few of those. The M&M version works fine, of course. Fuel Belt also sells the vials in two packs for about $5. They are great because they are totally watertight. I split my salt tabs into two containers, so if I drop one, I'm not totally SOL. That, and it's easier to manage getting them out when there aren't so many in there.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Just read the 'cramp when drink water' piece above? I might get the same but have just not twigged that straight water may be the reason. Why would the cramping happen when just water is consumed?

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

It's actually not that uncommon. I don't have a researched scientific paper for you, but keep in mind that your bodily fluids are quite salty (among other things). Water - straight water - will dilute your bodily fluids. The extreme case of this is hyponatremia, which can be fatal. But absorbing straight water, in my experience and talking to others, as opposed to fluid with a similar electrolyte concentration as your bodily fluids, seems to cause cramping. Drink water on long run = cramps. Water + one salt pill (or two, depending on run length and heat) = no cramps. Your body - or, I should say, my body - just seems to process fluid with a similar electrolyte balance more easily.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Cool, thanks for that. That may be the cause of my cramping. I always just thought that water would be safe and that something else may be the problem. I will start dropping an Endurolyte with it. If I was taking regular endurolytes anyway would I need to take with the water as well? Or are they pushed through the system fairly quickly meaning the water hits my stomach without them?

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

Endurolytes are useless, IMO. Look at the electrolyte breakdown. It makes no sense. Minimal sodium. A ton of calcium. It's one of the most ill conceived products I know of. I really have no idea what their formulation is based on. SaltStick is based off typical values for human sweat, and the differences are astonishing. Throw away your endurolytes. Buy some saltstick capsules.

Endurolytes Capsules
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 capsule
Amount Per Serving %DV
Sodium (as Sodium Chloride) 40mg 2%
Chloride (as Sodium Chloride) 60mg 2%
Calcium (as Chelate) 50mg 5%
Magnesium (as Chelate) 25mg 6%
Potassium (as Chelate) 25mg 1%
Vitamin B-6 (as Pyridoxine HCL) 6.6mg 330%
Manganese (as Chelate) 1.6mg 80%
L-Tyrosine 50mg �

SaltStick Capsules
Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 capsule
Supplement Facts
Serving size 1 capsule Amount Per Serving %DV*
Sodium (as 550 mg sodium chloride) 215mg 9%
Potassium (as potassium citrate and potassium chloride) 63mg 2%
Calcium (as calcium citrate and calcium gluconate) 22mg 2%
Magnesium (as magnesium citrate and magnesium gluconate) 11mg 2%
Vitamin D3 100 IU 25%

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Oy that's a stretch. Thousands of years of evolution got us to just tolerate "gatorade" when exercising? I think not.

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The Triathlon Squad

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I do a hard run. I drink water. I get cramps in my stomach. I do similar run. I drink water and take a salt pill. I do not get cramps. I don't really care what you think. It's like Noakes. Just because I *shouldn't* need to take salt doesn't change the fact that taking salt solves the problem I do have even though I shouldn't have it.

Thousands of years of evolution shouldn't require us to wear shoes, either. Is not wearing shoes going to be part of your mandate for your new training squad? Of all people, I'd expect you'd have more acceptance for doing something because it works - consistently.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You sound a little cranky ;)

I wasn't objecting to your individual difference, but to your generalization. To think that most people will have cramps when drinking pure water is the stretch.

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The Triathlon Squad

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I had not yet eaten my buffalo rib-eye steak with garlic/chipotle/onion/cowboy spice marinade. And replying to you was keeping me from doing so. I am better now. #meatstrong...

I didn't mean to generalize. My point was simply that I've heard from a fair number of other people that they cramp when they drink straight water as well, and I suggest trying to mix in some electrolytes. In many cases, that seems to help. People rarely think that water is the problem, and yet I've spoken to enough folks where it was a problem that I mentioned it. It's a very biased sample, though, because if you don't have a problem you'd never bring it up.

In other words, I don't think most people will cramp drinking water. But if you do cramp when you drink water, it might be worth trying to supplement with electrolytes to see if that helps.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Jordan,

I am curious if you had a pic of your bike setup with nutrition and flat kit, just to see what it looks like. if not its no worries, I am just having trouble visualizing your setup for the start of your bike.

Thanks

I'm pretty sure this is from AZ '09, but Jordan can confirm:



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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Thanks for the pic, I am always curious as most pros never seem to have the profile design aero bottle or a setup similar. Also it looks like a metal breaking surface so I assuming clinchers? One last question, Brian do the athletes you work with have a timer going off letting them know when to intake nutrition?

I'm horrified by the amount of salt. 12,000 mg of sodium is 30g of salt. That's an LD50 dose for a 10kg child (well, actually it's an LD50 dose for a 10kg rat but you know what I mean...). There's no way anyone could need that much NaCl in a day, as far as I know.

Rob

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Vanity Blog http://triathlonfoolishness.blogspot.com/

As far as you know is wrong then. I'm not even close to the max. The highest sodium losses seen at Gatorade Sports Science is 4,000mg/hour. So, over an equivalent period of time, more than double what I'd lose. And it's not like that person was several standard deviations out of the norm. I know several folks that require 500-1000mg of sodium more than I do.

I'm not sure what the single LD50 dose for a 10kg rat has to do with a measured dose distributed over 8-1/2 hours for a 70kg individual.

It's not like I ever advocated - or even could handle - taking that all at once.

Here's another way to look at your rationale. Imagine drinking two gallons of water over 8 hours. That's 32oz./hour roughly. Or an 8oz glass every 15min. Does that seem unreasonable? No. It's a lot of water, but it's not dangerous. Now drink two gallons of water at once. Death - or at least high risk of death - from hyponatremia would result. So by your logic, there's no way anyone could need that much water. And yet, I can guarantee you that is a very reasonable amount of water to take in during an Ironman. Though, you definitely want to take electrolytes as well with it.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

It is '09. Those are tubulars. LOTS of pros have the profile aero bottle. Crowie is the most notable I can think of. I just think it's too heavy, splashes all over the place, and is not particularly aero on a frame with a well designed front end.

I don't use a timer. But a lot of folks do. I just go in multiples of 15min off my clock. 15/30/45/60/etc.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

 

As far as you know is wrong then. I'm not even close to the max. The highest sodium losses seen at Gatorade Sports Science is 4,000mg/hour. So, over an equivalent period of time, more than double what I'd lose. And it's not like that person was several standard deviations out of the norm. I know several folks that require 500-1000mg of sodium more than I do.

OK, fair enough. Two questions though: 1) can you point me at the publication for that and 2) how does this mesh with what Tim Noakes has written about sodium replacement - as I recall he's argued very forcefully that salt loss through sweating, even at very high rates, doesn't deplete physiological sodium levels. I'm genuinely trying to work this out, not having a dig at you.

Ta

Rob

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Vanity Blog http://triathlonfoolishness.blogspot.com/

well, actually it's an LD50 dose for a 10kg rat but you know what I mean

There are 22 pound rats roaming the halls of American scientific institutions? Imagine the possibilities.

it's not published. When I was on the Timex Team, Gatorade was a sponsor. So I asked them the exact question. And that was their response. I also know a guy who was among the highest tested at GSSI - had a LOT of problems until he went and got tested - who echoed what they told me.

It doesn't mesh with what Noakes has written. But keep in mind that Noakes is the outlier. He says "you shouldn't need sodium based off XYZ." But despite the fact that athletes "shouldn't" need sodium to prevent cramping, a ton of athletes find that simply adding sodium helps prevent it. Ergo, you can take what Noakes says *should* be the case _OR_ you can look at what actually seems to work. You tell me who you are going to believe. Given that Noakes's theories - not just the salt one - are hardly universally accepted, I don't exactly consider Noakes to be much of an authority. He seems to have a lot of theories. But many of his theories seem to stand in pretty stark contrast to what actually happens.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist."

Rapp, Brian, thanks for this great discussion!

Victor

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Being in the medical field and begin an athlete I can tell you this, if you have normal functioning kidneys...you can intake all the salt you want and it won't do a damn thing to hurt you. If, however, you take in too little sodium...then your countdown begins. The simple point that was made here, that some of you are missing, is that WHATEVER Jordan did for nutrition was what works for him through trial and error and he's not going to change that for anyone posting in some forum. If he said he did 10 jumping jacks and a few squat thrusts in transition and that's why he was able to knock out lightening fast bike splits then so be it...again, WHATEVER works for him, you don't have to like it, just accept it. Great job in AZ, thanks for posting your nutrition report, it was insightful. It's always fun to take a peak in a master craftsman's mind for a little bit.

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I got nothing.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Na and muscle cramps are one thing, I definitely see benefit from Na to prevent quad and calf cramps. What about stomach/colon cramps and runner's trots? I dropped my salt tabs in my last race early on the bike. It wasn't a hot day so it wasn't a disaster and I ran pretty well. BUT I ran through the finish line straight to the port-a-potty. Have you noticed a salt effect on runner's trots?

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

I get pretty severe "race nerves" in the morning. So by the time I get to the race, there is almost nothing left to need to trot for. I've gotten pretty good about knowing what to eat (and what not to eat) the 24hrs prior to a race to prevent it. Salt doesn't seem to make much difference in that regard for me. Too much caffeine does, though. I've taken some "extra" PreRace before. That leads to the trots. I feel fast. But it's a delicate balance between running and getting the runs with caffeine.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

If Noakes is a scientist then he will be using evidence based conclusions. I am a big fan of evidence based medicine but the fact remains there are some outcomes that have yet to be proven but it does not make them false.

He is saying that you shouldn't need sodium based on XYZ (where XYZ is what he feels should be considered in an athlete). I doubt he would stand up and say XYZ is exactly what happens on race day because like it or not people seem to perform better with that supplement.

The variable seems to be not whether the supplement works, but how does XYZ differ from a real life situation.

Science does not necessarily always provide solutions but searches for an understanding of what is actually happening. It looks like the supplements work but he just does not exactly know why it seems.

Jordan seems to be doing pretty well avoiding Noakes current scientific conclusion!

Nice work yesterday by the way :)

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https://www.pbandjcoaching.com
https://www.thisbigroadtrip.com

Are EFS bars out again?
They were the only fructose free bar out there.

Awesome results and as always, thanks for the feedback.

Is Selenium in any of your supplements and if so, how much are you ingesting leading up to a race?

Scott

There's some - 200% US FDA RDA - in the First Endurance Multi-V, but that's all I take. I know Selenium is very much on the First Endurance radar for the next evolution of Multi-V.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Unfortunately, yes. I hoarded a few after I got my last box so I'd have them for the race.

First Endurance is looking into a new manufacturer for their bars to prevent these shortages from happening.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

As Jordan noted, we've been out for the better part of this season. With that, I'm told we'll have them again early in 2011.

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

Please get those things back!!!

I've got one left in my closet and am saving it for the next race I might need it.

But would love a box...or a case for that matter.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Trust me, I know & hear it every day. What I should have done is put our remaining boxes on e-bay as we probably could have gotten about $100 /box :)

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts