Wow, good thing that you were not hurt worse. I have seen that before on AlphaQ and on a Wolf...plus for some reason the AlphaQ plus had been known to creak at the insert. I may be just a nut and wrong about this...but I will only ride a woven carbon steer tube. Not sure it is any safer but I feel that if it was to fail the weave may just keep the works not falling off.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Yeah, could have been a LOT worse. I was only 4 miles from home, but also only about 1 mile from a 45 mph downhill! After that, it was to be up, down, hill repeats, etc. Could have been ugly.

I'm not *down* on the fork at all - great fork, and I know parts fail (esp carbon ones) but I think I'll shy away from a Wolf or AlphaQ ultralight fork. I think I'll still go all carbon (maybe) ;-)

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

the obvious: you are very, very, lucky.

talk to the big C, maybe they'll help you.

and try to get a fork with an AL steerer.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

I agree.. is the weight savings of a carbon steerer worth that kind of risk? Aluminum is so reliable for parts like that . Im just not enough of a weight weenie to care personally.

Glad your OK!

Time to go check my fork! Luck is on definitely on your side today. I ride an Easton EC90 SLX (bike came with it), but I've heard rumours that there are some issues with it. Haven't been able to find any hard facts on it though. I have about 10k miles on it and it still rides great with me being harsh on the roads bumps and potholes.

Having said that, does anyone know how often you should replace a fork (if any)? My next one will probably be a Reynold's with an alu steerer. Screw weight savings...

---

=====================================
"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

i've read about this with the Wolf SL before, and i would think it's a warranty issue. Having said that, if you have lost confidence in the Wolf SL, and you still want an full-on aero fork then do consider the Blackwell Research forks. I own the non-UCI legal Bandit and the steerer tube is the thickest i have ever seen. Not very light obviously but ok for so much material. Other aero forks to consider would be the Edge Composites aero fork, the Reynolds Ouzo Pro Aero (which tests very well incidentally). For non-aero, consider the Look HSC 5SL, Ritchey WCS or Easton EC90SL.

Dude, that sucks! Glad to hear you're OK.

Spot

---

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

glad you are safe

---

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

Man ... I'm really glad you're OK.

I was going to tell you that I don't do carbon steer tubes, but Trek just sent me out an '07 Madone 5.2sl frameset/fork as a warranty replacement for an old OCLV that developed a crack. I don't know what's on that Madone. I'm certainly going to go check.

Funny, I just saw a video of Hincapie's Paris Roubaix "look Ma, no bars" moment yesterday.

Heal up quickly!

Bob

Glad you're OK. Carbon scares the crap out of me. A friend's cyclocross handlebar failure. He was lucky too.

It doesn't say anything on pg 15 of the cervelo owners manual about minimum stack height (spacers below stem) but many fork companies recommend a minimum. I don't know why some companies do and others don't.

Thanks all -

Bob - I'm not all that gung ho on carbon parts either (I'll never understand carbon bars and stems since they are no lighter anyway), but Hincapie's steerer tube failure was a steel (or aluminum) one, and not carbon! I've heard that carbon parts don't necessarily fail any more than metal ones, but installation/torquing instructions are more critical. I'm not sold yet, but 200g and a nicer ride (I think I can tell) and I'm light still points me to an all carbon fork ...

Well, got some research done now. This might help some people. What I have learned (all high end forks).

ONLY difference between the Wolf SL and CL is the carbon vs. steel steerer tube.

The new Reynolds UL (needed since their very nice Ouzo Pro/Peloton forks haven't upgraded in a while and many forks are now much lighter) has a recall

The Easton EC90 SLX tests poorly with lateral rigidity (German Tour magazine), but is under 300g

I can find very little real data about the Edge composites forks or where to buy.

The Blackwell forks don't belong on my road bike!

The LOOK HSC 5SL is also under 300g, tests well with stiffness, and has no reported failure issues that I could find. They just released a new HSC 6 that is 15g heavier, but even stiffer. This *LOOKS* (pun intended) to be my next fork ... but, they have an integrated crown at 36 degrees and I think the internal headset of the Soloist is the standard 45 degrees? What the? I can't seem to find out. Looking at it looks like the std. FSA/Cane Creek stuff (45/45). FSA site lists 45/36. Does that mean 45 degrees upper and 36 lower?

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Actually, if you dig, Cervelo recommends less than 80mm (std 15 top cap plus 3 10mm spacers, then stem) on the Wolf SL fork. This coincides with the 125mm aluminum sleeve that gets epoxied in during installation. There is no min for the CL. I was WAY below that though with only the 15mm top cap and zero spacers.

I'm getting quite the steerer tube education here (with ice on my knee) :-(

Anyway, for others that ride hard and have some miles on ... go check your steerer tubes tonight!!!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

The HSC 6 fork can only work with the Look 595 and 586 i think. They have a unique structure somewhat like the Kuota fork, and so cannot work after market with other bikes, hence why i suggested the HSC 5.

You know how often I hear "wow, cant beleive you dont have a carbon handlebar"...yeah, I have full Record, nice wheels and a custom frame...I however like my teeth far too much to risk a carbon bar.

PLUS - a Deda Newton Alu bar weighs 35gm LESS than an EC-70 and just 5gm more than the SLX...for my 5gm I will put on a little less bar tape.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

glad you are ok
I am keeping old school (bike weight with stuff 20 LBS)
steel is real
super chicken I am I am
I will lose the weight in my fat ass instead
Dan wrote on carbon light weight forks

i agree with you in principle, but your numbers are all wrong. i've never weighed a newton under 240g.

Picked the numbers Colorado Cyclist dot com. Not sure how valid they are.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Looks like you are having quite the time with your research. Have you come across anything in regards to the Profile Designs ADC All Carbon fork? Apparently its the official fork of Ironman (like that's a big deal, I can also go out and buy the official mattress of Ironman too). I have one, the fork that is, I'm about to install this week on my Cervelo P2C. All I see in the instructions is they say no more than 20MM of spacers between the headset and the stem.

I got a fantastic deal on the fork, brand new with an uncut steer tube for $130.00. All I need is a headset and I will be ready to build her up.

Cheers,

Dave

---

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

Profile forks you will have a hard time finding anything bad about - other than weight. Used to call the BDC "Brick Deep Carbon"...it was about twice the weight of other forks. I have ARC on my Bianchi fixie...in the hand it is my heaviest non aero fork (compared to Easton SLX, Look HFC, Ouzo Pro and even a Specialided OEM)

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Rod-
Well, you are freaking really lucky that didn't happen further along on your ride. I don't even want to know how that could have turned out if it had happened by Her Honor's house!
You may have some outdated info on your fork installation. Go check out the Cervelo forum regarding "fork insert" and the Wolf SL. Spend a little time reading up on some of the posts and you will quickly understand that there is a great deal of confusion regarding the issue. My understanding is that Cervelo is now advising no more than 65mm stack height above the headtube, while Alpha Q/True Temper recommends no more than 70mm. This means that a 40mm stem + 15mm top cap+10mm spacer= 65mm and you are tapped out. The aluminum insert is only 75mm long and must extend 10mm below the upper headset bearing. There is no way that you could do that with 30mm worth of spacers. Check out the raging debates on the forum and notice the very different ways that the SL fork has been installed by shops depending on their reading of the instructions. Check out the posts from "Cervelocs" (I think)- he works for Cervelo and has attempted to clarify the instructions somewhat...and not very well I might add.
I don't think that this situation applied to you however. IIRC, you had no spacers, so not an issue. Just as an aside, I saw that Cervelo is now shipping the SL forks with 125mm inserts and that they are already installed. I am absolutely **shocked** that this is the first time that the topic has come up on ST. I still have a brand new Wolf SL sitting in my basement because I just don't know what to do with it. Cervelo, in my opinion, really dropped the ball on this one...

If they know that...why do they not ship the fork with it cut to the minimum? Not to hard to do that math.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Yeah, I was reading around on the forums there. Does seem like quite a mess for Cervelo - add the *shortage* of Wolf SL forks! Well, Josh, you are a LOT more timid and bigger than me, so I don't think I'd be installing that!

And yes, I was heading down to Spooky Hollow, Camargo, etc. My usual stomping grounds ... I'm sure one of the Bentleys or Rolls Royces would have just run me over like a speed bump there if I was splayed out on one of those hills ;)

Again, I think True Temper makes some OK stuff (Wolf, Alpha Q), but they, like other companies (now the Reynold recall) are pushing the envelop some.

I did think about the brick Profile Design fork (can buy 3 for the price of the HSC 5 SL), but ... nah! ;-)

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

You know how often I hear "wow, cant beleive you dont have a carbon handlebar"...yeah, I have full Record, nice wheels and a custom frame...I however like my teeth far too much to risk a carbon bar.

PLUS - a Deda Newton Alu bar weighs 35gm LESS than an EC-70 and just 5gm more than the SLX...for my 5gm I will put on a little less bar tape.


I've seen one snapped bar in all my years cycling. It was aluminum and it just gave out on the poor fellow on a pretty quick little descent. Of course, carbon bars are relatively newer and have fewer cumulative miles.

I hate these threads. Now I'm gonna be a little freaked out each time I get on the bike for the next few days.

.

---

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

My SLC SL owning friend says it may have been installed improperly. Something about a compression ring or something needing to be oriented with the wedge sideways rather than forward or back.

I personally don't understand why it's so complicated but I'm glad I don't have to deal with it on my bike.

No matter what I replace my Alu bars every three years or so...even less if I lay em down. Not saying that Alu dont break...just that I have a bit more faith in it. Carbon bars are great for pro's who will have a new set next week.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I think that they are now sending out the forks with a longer 125mm insert preglued and the fork cut to the size of the frame. I **think** that you can still tap down the start nut and cut the fork down a little, but not much. The math issue really is a mess. I think that the critical measurement is getting the insert to extend 10mm below the upper headset bearing. It seems as though many shops adhered to that as the number one measurement, while others simply followed misleading (or maybe just wrong) stack height max numbers. I have to admit, I have spent a great deal of time researching and watching this issue and I still can't figure out the best or correct way to do this. I want to use the SL fork that came with my SLC, but I just don't know.

Now you know why lance would never ride with those carbon steerers...WOW. I will suck up the extra weight with the alum.
Glad your ok...See if you can get a wolf fork with the alum steer. Hope is covered under warranty.

Not the compression ring, but the aluminum steerer sleeve. If you look, it was installed properly (groove to the left or right, not front or back). Yes, ridiculously meticulous instructions for a fork and how that could make that much of a difference I can't see) . Needless to say it was NOT on my replacement list ;)

Sorry to *freak* everyone out, but sometimes these threads are good for the winter equipment checks!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

DUDE...Glad you are safe...I have only ripped the rear derailluer hanger off a frame coming from an intersection...far less dangerous!!

---

Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

Lets not forget these oldies but goodies images...



And dont forget...some fancy Alu forks break too

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Two things:

1) How is your bike?

2) Why not call Cervelo on Monday or stop by your shop? They might at least get you a new fork and if you don't want to use that one, then sell it for some coin to offset the cost of a new one.

That said, glad you are ok.

Bob

Bikes fine - small nick in the paint near the head tube as far as I can see. Went over her pretty good after - standing start and only got up to about 10-15 mph I reckon through the intersection. Again, I was very lucky here. Even did a pissed of 45 min run after since I only got to bike 4 miles!

That photo above was Hincapie's bike at Paris-Roubaix I think. Mine broke exactly there (just below the aluminum steerer insert). Again, I have NO spacers and that insert was right near my top headset. I think they are longer (125mm) now as cincytri has mentioned. Nice way to find out!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

You can google it, but I think Scott Daubert and Trek discovered some sort of metal fatgigue caused the Hincapie break. Of course his was a damn near new steerer tube, though.

I still say call Cervelo and get a new fork.

Bob

I guess the ADC is quite a bit better weight wise. The wolf SL is 12.2 oz, while the Profile ADC is 14.6 oz.. I wouldn't say that is a brick by any stretch of the imagination. Now the BDC is about 1.5 pounds so yeah, it's a brick.

Dave

---

Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach

rroof.... happy to hear you arent in too bad of a shape. two weeks ago on a training ride, one of the athlete at the camp broke is carbon handelbar on a specilized bike. Like you, at the red light, starting to roll and out of the saddle... but nothing bad happen!

when i look at the pic of your fork.... do you know how deep inside the headset was the aluminum insert???

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

i would go with either the wolf CL or something from easton. glad you are ok

---

____________________________________________________________
Link to my photography
http://davidsavoiephotography.blogspot.com/
http://davidsavoiesports.blogspot.com/

jonnyo -

The aluminum insert was right at the top of the headset, so not far enough! I just measured the small broke off piece of steerer tube, and it is only 54mm long (2 and 1/8th inch) so that aluminum insert piece must only be about 2 inches (50mm) or less. I read the *new* ones are 125mm? That is quite a difference. Cervelo (or True Temper) must have know this was an issue? I'd check yours on your R3 (and P3C) just to be safe/sure.

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

when i saw the pic.... that is what i was thinking, i do beleive it as to be deeper inside the headset to be safe. But if your insert was short???......that is pretty hard to do.

i dont have the wolf sl.... i have a easton ec 90 that i like a lot and i just check to be sure,and installation seems good:) and a wolf CL on the p3c.

take care of that knee..... !!!

---

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Not metal fatigue, point loading. With a zero stack, as Hincapie and the OP were running, the normal bending forces exerted on the steerer by the stem/handlebar end up being translated as both bending and sheering forces. Granted, Hincapie *supposedly* had his steerer weakened by straightening his stem without loosening bolts, but that's just hearsay AFAIK. I've been told by some reputable carbon companies, known for both their exotic and lightweight bikes as well as their carbon repair services, that the monocoque nature of a carbon steerer behaves slightly different from an alloy one, but how much is an extra 100g really worth?

Regardless of minimum stack requirements from manufacturers, I won't ever recommend running less than 5mm of spacers. That extra 5mm decreases the point loading drastically and *almost* completely eliminates this type of fork failure. I say *almost* because I've dealt with a few who always manage to find a way to break even the most improbabl things while JRA -- including stripping a frame entirely of its BB threads -- so I never say anything's impossible anymore.

Another thing...this is the stem I use on my carbon steerer...CarbonX on the other...I want ROUND everything I dont want my stem face to fall off, bolts break, or any other odd fluke. Is it the lightest? No way...but when I had a Syntace F99 on the bike for about a week I could feel that thing noodle all over hell.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Great, something new to worry about. Two years ago I bent the hell out of the bars on the tribike while I was flying upside down at around 19 mph (I was attacked by aliens and that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Luckily, at the end I was able to jump up and in my best PeeWee Herman say: “I meant to do that.”). The old bars were aluminum but when I went in to get new ones all they had was a CobraWing and they made me a deal on it and I have been happy ever since until this thread. I just went upstairs and looked at it and it looks fine but I don’t think I qualify as a carbon fiber fatigue expert. Anyway to tell if it wearing? Should I just get rid of it? I am very protective of my 55 year old collarbones…..

Rroof - glad all is well except for a little roadrash.
------------------

---

Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

Dang dude, two weekends in a row?!? As for a replacement, can't go wrong here: http://www.surlybikes.com/forks.html :)

LOL! Yeah, I look really great now at the pool. Bruises and rash on the left hip, left knee/leg, right knee and right elbow. Jeez. Running at 8 tomorrow again? I'll gimp along again and take a day OFF riding ;0

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

That is one of the big issues with carbon. Often there are no signs of stress fractures prior to destructive failure. My thoughs about the high modulous as opposed to woven (again this is MY thought, not based on any science)...is that a woven carbon structure will possibly fracture, but the weave of the fabric may have a chance to sort of hold things together. I have seen this on impact destruction as well as as over stress failure (impact on frames, stress on carbon weave fishing poles that cracked but helt together by the weave).

Every point to create a ridge is bad for any handlebar, or steer tube. Now, if you look at my BigOne Stem, you can see there are three potential ridge points, one on each side of the clamp area, one at the closure area....same with the steer side of the stem. A BIG thing that many folks may look past...sand and other pollutants. If you have sand, metal shavings or any other crap that is common in a shop get under a clamp - it will cause a defect in the material and possibly a wonderful start to a future failure.

Now, how many potential areas are there for crushing damage on this stem? This is other than the fact that the rider has a VERY small area of contact for the stem to secure the bar...or transfer the stress load. One thing you cant see here is the rubber insterts that ship with the F99 that go between the stem and bar (could get a photo from my Bianchi though). Also, the F99 stem REQUIRES a special "lube" that has "grit" in it to keep the bolts torqued (got me, I got the packages of the goop)



Now then there are stems like this super nice Thompson. I have seen bars carbon and Alu very damaged by this stem but not with out allot of help from a mechanic who has no clue or torque wrench for that matter. This stem also leaves the steer tube open to the same crushing damage as the bar...again, with a bad mechanic.



This is the stem that is currently on my Litespeed road bike with a TTT Prima220 (NOS) bar. As you can see, there is a solid clamp for both the bar and steer tube. On the other side what is nice is the torque spec is etched right onto the stem next to each bolt.




But, as you can see here http://www.biketechreview.com/...links/bigonefail.htm the ITM can also be broken (this example was broken on a machine).

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

http://freeflite.com/page.cfm?pageid=161

Glad you're okay Rod!

---

______________
HEDmafia.com

I think a guy is selling a brand new, uncut Wolf CL in the classified section for only 100 bucks. At least you would then have the alum steerer tube.

Odd, Rod's fork is neither :-)

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

cripes rod. 2 inches from your leg?
so sorry about the crash, but damn i'm glad you're alive and well dude!!!!!

i'll just add you to the list of tri peeps to worry about. poor barry is already gettin' my naggs all the time (call me when you guys are done with the ride!, etc etc etc)

stupid freaking fork and stuff!!!

Well, the good news is that my LBS will be glad to see me – as of late, I have been giving most of my money to Ergvideo.

I have this weird associational memory and this discussion took me back to CDA a few year ago. When you leave town you have a series of climbs and then some rollers and then you turn left and then there is a pretty decent climb. On the second loop I saw a guy walking down with the rear derailleur off the bike. I will not state the brand but it was carbon. I just never thought about it before.

I have this routine I do about how there are better ways to die than…..(I won’t do it here). But there are better ways to go down than having the frick’n bars break when they are on top of a Ti frame.

Many thanks for the advice.
------------------------------

---

Born again Heathen
In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
Ironman Certified Coach
USAT Certified Coach
Precision Nutrition Certified

Glad you're OK. Seeing posts like this make me stick to my "overbuild it" mentality from the MTB days! Takes more than some broken carbon to take out a Ranger, right?

---

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

LOL! Yup! Hell, I'm proud of my "war wounds" ;0

Lead the Way!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Right, but that would just make me that much more leary of another Wolf fork.

---

______________
HEDmafia.com

I would put a Wolf fork on my bike in the AM and ride it. Rod had some SUPER bad luck. However, the initial cause of this failure may have been a mechanic the day the bike was built...and it just took till now. THAT is why I do all my own work!

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Hey, I've had one component failure in five years, and it wasn't even my fault. A woman bought a bike from us and the chain (A Shimano Dura Ace 10s chain) failed at the factory connecting pin in the middle of an upshift. The derailleur, being caught up on the now separated chain, was torqued into the wheel where it was eventually brought around right into her driveside seatstay...sufficiently damaging her frame. Needless to say, she was given a new frame...and we were just given a warranty credit, not a chain, so we could choose ''something that [didn't] suck'', as they put it.

As far as overbuilt = tough and light = weak, I've found a lot of surprising examples to the contrary. Both my Bontrager RXL Carbon Aero and Zipp 303s have been more than adequately tough. KMC chains, even the X10SL, are significantly more durable than their Shimano and SRAM counterparts. I've got three broken Dura Ace chains to my name (great way to f*ck up your STI levers) and a SRAM 991 chain when I rode 9s. To date I've broken 0 KMC chains, both DX10 and X10SL.

Seems like we need a fork autopsy before this thread devolves any further...

;-)

Same reason I do my own work too. But Rod's fork makes the third Wolf that I have seen catastrophically fail in the last 4 years. Couple that with the recall I came across and I'll keep letting you guys ride the Wolfs. :p

---

______________
HEDmafia.com

Chip-
I am starting to come around to your view on this as well. It seems as though the only way to get things done right is to do them yourself. In Rod's case, however, I am going to put at least some of the blame on Cervelo for the incorrect installation. Take just a few minutes and read over the thread, "Can you guys check out my fork insert" on the Cervelo forum and you will see that there has been at least 3 different sets of instructions regarding the minimum insertion of the aluminum insert. Even after all of the commotion on the forum and, most likely, at several Cervelo dealers, there is still a disagreement between Cervelo and True Temper/Alpha Q on what the measurement should be. That said, I still think that the shop should be held accountable for the improper installation. From my very limited knowledge and ability with a bike wrench, I am keenly aware that there are several parts of a bike that you simply have to get right the first time and a fork is one of them.

Rod's case is not one of bad luck, but rather sloppy work by a mechanic. Had the fork been installed correctly and a squirrel jumped into his spokes thereby causing a chain reaction of events leading to the snapping of his fork, then I think that bad luck would be the prime suspect. :) What really irritates me is that Cervelo and, apparently Cervelo dealers, did not act proactively to address the improperly installed fork situation. Short of a recall, as has been suggested by several posters on the Cervelo forum, how is a person supposed to know that his/her fork is installed incorrectly? I just can't believe that Cervelo dealers, or Cervelo, have not made efforts to make sure that SL forks were installed correctly.

I think that Rod's case is very troubling because he did not have a ton of spacers above his headtube and really did think that the insert was far enough into the headtube. The usual scenerio is that a customer wants the bike that doesn't fit and gets that giant stack of spacers thereby making the fork installation faulty. I can't believe it happened to Rod since he is obviously on the right bike.

I am going to be good for a day or two and not make too much noise about this. I have an SLC with a Wolf SL fork in my basement waiting to be built up and have spent a lot of time watching this issue. As I mentioned above, I am **shocked** that this is the first time this has come up on ST. Some people have some explaining to do and I'll wait for them do that before starting my own thread(s).

i had a friend of mine with the same problem, but it wasnt as bad since he noticed something was wrong before it snapped.

i really dont like that aluminum insert, it opens to many space to instalation errors

---

=====================================
S�rgio Marques
When it hurts is when it feels good ;-)
Sergio-Marques.com

I am very happy with my Ritchey WCS fork and that fork is very light and stiff and has to endure my 190 pounds. Yikes.

H

Yes, I put a post over on the Cervelo forum with the 5 PAGES of issues with the Wolf SL fork and sent off an e-mail to the CS guy. I never new about any issues at all until know. My LBS that did the install is closed today, but I'll be dropping by with bike/fork to show them for sure! They are the only Cervelo dealer with a 100 miles of me (in a major metro city as well).

I can definitely see a lawsuit some day re: this issue. That won't be from me since I assume all risks riding and thankfully I wasn't really hurt - but someone is going to be. I really dislike those kinds of lawsuits anyway (right or wrong). This is a $500 fork on a $5,000 bike, so one can assume it is going to be ridden hard and fast by some attorney!

Again, for others, if you have a Wolf SL fork bought before the last 6 months or so (when the longer aluminum insert was sent already glued into the steerer tube), please take off your stem and check!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Rod,
sorry to hear about your crash. Sounds like you are ok. Would not want our personal ST foot doc get hurt.
I have the same fork on my R3, will have to get it checked.
I think, if I was worried about quality I would probably go with a Serrota fork. They are very worried about this kind incident. Talked to Ben Serrota once at my LBS
and he went on and on about having sleepless nites over broken carbon parts.
Their forks are made in the US and the quality control is excellent. Little heavier and of course quiet expensive.
Broke my Time fork clean off in 07 when a stick locked up the wheels and sent me flying over the bars at 25mph landing with a broken collarbone.
Could not blame the fork though.
Axel

Greg-
One of the more fascinating aspects of this Wolf SL fork debacle is the response (or lack thereof) from Cervelo on their own forum. Months went by with posters asking for "official" instructions and guidance from Cervelo regarding their fork installation. Gerard more or less opened Pandora's box when he advised someone on the forum that their bike was unsafe due to the number of spacers and the fact that the insert could not have been inserted correctly with that stack height. Then came the firestorm with posters flooding the board about their forks and LBS. Nothing from Cervelo for quite some time until Chris (Cervelocs on the forum) posted a couple of times to clarify some of the instructions. Interestingly enough, he provided information that he later admitted was flat out wrong. One of his last responses on the topic seems to summarize where Cervelo is going hang their hat. Cervelo does not manufacture the fork and can only provide guidance based on True Temper's instructions. That seems like a very convenient cop out and a transparent attempt at pushing responsibility elsewhere. In the same post, however, Chris (Cervelocs) states that Cervelo is recommending a max stack height of 70mm above the frame while acknowledging that True Temper recommends a max of 80mm. How can Cervelo on one hand defer to True Temper as the best source of information on the installation and performance of the Wolf SL fork (and presumably the best source of blame), while on the other hand state that they recommend a lower max stack height than does True Temper?
Cervelo, you can't have it both ways. Either you know nothing about the forks and its all True Temper's fault, or you are responsible for the bikes you sell down to the aluminum insert supplied with the forks. Either way, this is a major problem for owners of Wolf SL forks that really should have be more professionally handled. It is apparent that some Wolf SL fork owners were told by LBS's that they properly installed the forks based on instructions then available and were not willing replace the fork for free. I am also starting to see a bit of friction between dealers and Cervelo. Several posters on their forum have suggested that the LBS must have had under qualified mechanics do the installation. Hmmm... I would love to hear from some Cervelo dealers and their experience with the SL fork. It would be interesting to see what Cervelo has said to them that may not be information that plain old customers received. After all, we're just customers...

very interesting post.

another thing to consider, ignoring the insert issue: a guy with 1 spacer and a long and highly angled stem could put A LOT more load on the steerer tube than another guy of equal weight and strength with lots of spacers but a short and level stem. simple mechanics.

---

---

Where would you want to swim ?

I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you haven't worked in many bike shops, and if you did they were large (as shops go) corporate chains. That probably means you weren't in one that was sued or were and never heard about it being that only corporate dealt with it.

Bike shops tend to have a policy of aesthetic inspection only because of warranty wording and the wonderful legal system. As soon as a mechanic disassembles something pre-assembled from the factory, a failure at that point is no longer the sole responsibility of the manufacturer. The warranty becomes harder to push through with many companies (thinking of freehubs and wheels right now) and damn near impossible in some cases. Not sure how a wrench inspecting the fork would be grounds for a case that it's not Cervelo's responsibility, but I can guarantee you that given an expensive enough lawsuit their legal team would make a damn good case for it.

Ouch ...

Rod,

Glad to hear you are OK. Any type of failure with the fork, stem or handlebar can be catastrophic. This is NOT an area of the bike to skimp on strength. I am not a materials engineer or expert, but I sometimes do wonder about the strength of some of the ulta-light carbon parts.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I am not a mechanic and have never worked for or in a bike shop. Up until 4 years ago, my most significant amount of riding was to and from class in college. I do have some familiarity with the legal system and products liability and can appreciate what you are saying. Most businesses do whatever they can to decrease exposure to lawsuits and that is, of course, true for bike shops as well.

However, this thread and my posts are not really on point with your comments. Rroof's fork (and all Wolf SL fork delivered prior to several months ago) did not arrive at the LBS pre-glued or pre-installed. The LBS had to do all of the measuring, cutting and gluing. That is quite a bit different than disassembling products that came from the factory or bike company. The LBS has no choice but to be involved in that process and are fairly well up to their necks in terms of liability. Cervelo dealers, until recently, were not in a position to simply examine the fork and slap it in the frame.

To be fair, the LBS in this case has a great argument that Cervelo should be on the hook for this one. Their instructions were not clear and arguably just wrong. That is why I would love to hear from Cervelo dealers about how this gets resolved.

Ah, yeah, that'd change things. I was under the impression the fork came with the bike and was therefore Cervelo's sole responsibility.

I don't have any engineering background but I'll take a crack at this. It seems to me that a fork steerer tube has to, and will flex. You run into a potential problem wherever something stops the flex in an area and then concentrates it all instead at a specific spot. I would say these points will be at the bottom of the stem, the bottom of the aluminium insert(if you have one) and at the top and bottom of the headset. I think you have a real risk of a failure if two or three of these points coincide.

It looks like Rod's might have failed right at the top of the headset and maybe the bottom of the insert was also at that point. It also sounds like he had no spacers under the stem, meaning the top of the headset and bottom of the stem were also pretty much at the same point.

I think the guidelines should be:

- a few spacers under the stem so there is an area for the fork to flex between the top of the headset and below the bottom of the stem

- make sure the bottom of the insert doesn't coincide with the bottom of the stem OR the top of the headset

Greg.

Why wouldn't the use of spacers aggravate the problem since the additional length of the steerer tube/stem location also creates a lever? Isn't the limitation of 70mm of length is so no one places a stem at the very top? Isn't the most stress on the steerer tube always at the exact point where it exits the the frame no matter what the length of the steer tube?

That makes sence and sounds like what Cervelo is suggesting on their forum.

It looks to me like they are disagreeing with True Temper's instructions. They are saying one measurement that contradicts the manufacturer. It's a touchy subject if True Temper treats it as slander on their building skills. I would why the differences? It seems like Cervelo has the more conservative setup though.

I agree with you about the stress at the point where the fork leaves the frame at the top ofthe headset. Don't you also have a point of stress at the bottom of the stem? I would think with no spacers, these two points are pretty much together. By having some spacers, don't you have a length of steerer tube between these two points that spreads the flex over a greater area making it less likely to snap? Again, I'm not saying this is the case...I'm just asking if this makes sense or not.

Greg.

The fork does not exit the frame per se. The fork exits at the bearing. The top bearing supports the load of the fork, as well as centers the fork in the head tube. As I think we all know, the more surface area, and or more area this aluminum core covers, the stronger the system AS LONG AS the additional support is in the same area as the stress.

From what I can find...it seems to me that the intent of this sleeve was to go in the steerer at the place from the bottom of the stem, and below the top bearing of he headset. I am no engineer but can see how that would assist in preventing such a failure. Fact is for all the stress we put on this tube we have a very small contact patch of support at the top bearing (1/8 - 1/4"). Seems to me to be a perfect place to be the fulcrum of a failure...and would seem that the top of the HS was infact where this fracture occured.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I don't know if that was the intent as True Temper's instructions does not say the insert has to go that deep.

Rod, glad you're ok! I read somewhere about a minimum 5mm spacer so I keep that on mine. Probably a disconcerting experience.

Hope you get right back on the horse!

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

---

http://www.aiatriathlon.com

Chiming in late, but of all people on ST, very glad to hear you weren't hurt!

---

----------------------------------------------------------

If it's a YMCA pool, the lightning wanders around the locker room naked for an hour, then uses the blow dryer on its junk. -lunchbox

You are most correct in your assumptions. The steerer tube did indeed fail right where the aluminum sleeve ended (perfect stress point).

When I say I run no spacers though, I mean ON TOP of the already supplied tall 25mm FSA IS2 top cap. So, the bottom of the stem and the upper headset are at least that far apart, so two "different" stress areas. I also had a small 3mm spacer on top of my stem to reduce stress from the top cap as I was told as well. All OK and per instructions (or so I thought).

The issue with my fork failure, it appears, is that the aluminum insert did NOT extend past the upper headset. In fact, it stopped right on it (worse case scenario). Since I had an *early* SLC, the sleeves were only 75mm and came separate and it was up to the LBS to epoxy it in, install the star nut, etc. Since Cervelo rec 80mm min above the headtube, how was this all supposed to work? You can see the issues here. So, later, Cervelo started shipping their SL forks with a new, longer 125mm sleeve already glued in! The real issue is that that are likely hundreds of people with forks like mine and they have not been contacted, despite them supposedly knowing about this issue. That is NOT cool. At least Reynolds did the right thing recalling their fork when they discovered the problem. True Temper or Cervelo or whoever just figured out a fix (a good thing) and sent it off to their dealers with new instructions, but nothing about the other forks? Hmmm ...

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

This really pisses me off and worries me. I carefully read all of the install directions for the Wolf SL fork on my R3 and discussed with the shop who built my bike. They built it to those specs. Now, according to Cervelo, the specs have changed and I know I am not within those specs as I was relatively close to the upper end of the old specs (which still wasn't very high, a couple small spacers and the top cap).

I am going to go to the shop who built the bike and see what they say. Honestly, if they say they'll trade me my SL for a CL I would do it in a heartbeat. But...if they don't do that, I don't want to spend $300 for a fork on a bike I already paid $2,600 for...

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

My experience withe the Alpha Q Pro fork was a poor installation caused by a LBS.

He installed the insert and then cut the steerer! Of course he denied that he installed it correctly. I emailed True Temper about the installation to ensure that it was safe and this is my question and this is their reply.

Question:
"I purchased the carbon for steerer version of the Alpha Q fork. I had a bike mechanic cut and install the fork and I’m concerned about the installation. The aluminum insert was cut as far as the bottom of the stem so that the stem is clamping to the aluminum insert. It doesn’t go down to the top of the headset.

Is this an issue? How far does the insert have to go down the steerer."

True Temper Answer:
"The longer the insert, the stronger the fork will be.

The most important thing is that the insert is supporting the area where the stem is clamping.

If the insert does not extend past the bearings, you will not see as much stiffness benefit. The fork is still safe to ride, just not as stiff in bending as it could be. It is a small difference.

Which fork model do you have?"


Bert Hull

Product Manager

True Temper Sports

(901) 746-2064

Well, I wanted to be on the safe side and purchased a new Alpha Q fork and per their included instructions did the install myself because I didn't trust an LBS to do it right. True Temper did an inadequate job of releasing this fork. They should have done a better job to ensure that it would be properly installed.

Well that is just crap. My stem was entirely clamped on the steerer tube AND underlying aluminum insert. Didn't help a bit. It failed just BELOW this insert right where the fulcrum would be (at the top of the headset). But, I'm definitely no materials engineer, but from their 180 degree approach and my n=1 fork failure, I'd say the week link is here, not the clamping of the stem on the steerer tube.

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

"The real issue is that that are likely hundreds of people with forks like mine and they have not been contacted, despite them supposedly knowing about this issue."

Bingo. My tort and products liability law is very rusty, but I think that there is a real mess in the making for Cervelo, True Temper and many LBS. The fact is that many Wolf SL forks supplied on Cervelo forks were installed incorrectly and all three entities knew about the problem. The blame game has been very interesting to watch and I am **dying** to know how your situation turns out. For a point of reference, check out both the Cervelo forum (bike photo thread) and Competitive Cyclist's gallery and try to count how many Wolf SL forks are installed correctly- its much easier to count them as there are fewer done right than wrong. If you use the supplied top cap (15mm), a 40mm stem (normal), and one 10mm spacer, then you are tapped out (as Cervelo actually recommended...before they changed it back to 70mm total stack height above the frame). Any Wolf SL fork with more than that 10mm spacer is not safe per Cervelo's own warnings!! Here's an even funnier question: Do you think that Cervelo took the time to contact any of the posters on their own website forum to warn them of the danger they were potentially facing?

Shame on Cervelo, shame on True Temper, and shame on you LBS who let cyclists walk out of your stores riding bikes that are unsafe and then do nothing to proactively contact customers once you learn of the potential problem.

"Honestly, if they say they'll trade me my SL for a CL I would do it in a heartbeat."

Really? If that is the case, then come on over to my house and I'll swap out all of my Ultegra parts for your Dura Ace and we can make any other trades you want!! :)

You paid for a $500.00 fork ($475.00 new @ Excel) and I am sure that you didn't ask for the "faulty installation discount" deal. Cervelo, True Temper, your LBS (pick one I guess) owes you either $500.00 or a new, properly installed mind you, Wolf SL fork. If you decide you want a Wolf SL fork, I have a brand new, uncut, unglued fork that you can pick up for FAR less than retail . :)

Don't let these guys off the hook by getting an inferior (or at least less expensive) replacement. And spread the word to your buddies and the shop...

Rod... 1) I'm glad you're OK. 2) You are one hell of a good sport. I would be absolutely FURIOUS over this. I don't care if my gear gets busted up, but any road rash because of a failure like that and I'm calling OJ's (remaining) lawyers.

I run one of those forks on my P2C I bought early last year....

---

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

This SL fork issue is a cluster and I have gone back and forth with them since first reading about in on their forum - my authorized Cervelo bike shop doesn't know anything about it. I have a 2006 R3 with about 75mm above the frame including top cap, spacers, and stem. It sounds like the insert should be installed below the top bearing which means I can't have mine installed correctly. Does anyone know if it is possible to retrofit a 125mm insert or does the fork just have to be scrapped? I really like the fork but may go with a CL instead of spending $475 more for a new SL.

Kindly forgive my late chime in. Some of this may have been said.

First, glad you're ok. I have an Alpha Q on my tandem and its insert comes to the headset top bearing, but barely. Since the bike get light use, I'm only a little worried.

Hincapie's fork had an aluminum steerer. It had been damaged by a prior crash. The important thing to note is that after a crash, we need to really check what needs replacing and what doesn't. I had a hard crash. My Zipp Contour showed not scratches, but there were some scraped on the bar tape. I can't remember who I spoke to at Zipop, but his comment was that there could be stress risers that wouldn't be visible. I replaced the bar.

Just my .02. Hope it helped.

sorry if i missed it, but how is the frame in all this? Are you still going to ride it? It must have taken a bit of a knock when you fell, how do you know that it is ok?

I don't. But there is hardly a scratch on it and I checked it over pretty carefully. I was just getting going from a dead stop through an intersection, so not a hard crash (thankfully) at all. I'm taking the whole thing in to my LBS/Cervelo dealer though for sure!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

"The initial question above, begs another question: if a notice went to dealers and customers telling them to check the forks, who pays for the fix if the fork is installed incorrectly?"

Your question is a good one, but presupposes information that is just flat out not true. What I consider to be the biggest failure in this whole situation is that Cervelo did not send out a notice to customers. Whether or not dealers received the notice is another question that I am not prepared to answer because I just don't know. I do know, however, that many (read: most if not all) Cervelo dealers did not notify customers once they did become aware of the problem. Affected Cervelo owners only found out about the Wolf SL fork problems after reading forums such as this one. I know for a fact that some Cervelo dealers did not notify customers even after other customers brought the problem to their attention.

Who knows who is more at fault for the improper fork installation. The fact that the problem is not isolated to a particular bike shop suggests that there may be plenty of blame to share. It is without question, however, that Cervelo, True Temper and Cervelo LBS failed in what I believe is their ultimate responsibily: putting cyclist on safe equipment.

Too bad alum steerers are getting so hard to find. I have never seen that type of failure on an alum steerer tube. I have seen em break right at the crown. That is why on my crossbikes I run alum steerers. I have a couple all carbon road forks, but not too trusting of them.

my first ever piece of carbon was a fork with a alum steerer,guess how long before it went bad? They fail also

RRoof,
Can you confirm if your LBS installed the insert into the steerer and then did the cut? Based on True Tempers FAQ, after the install only 2cm can be cut (see below).

Q: Can I resize my carbon steerer fork after the insert has been installed?
A: Yes, you can remove up to 2 cm of steerer after the installation of the insert.

Could it be that the failure wasn't because the insert wasn't below the top headset bearing but there was too much of a reduction of the insert?

Reading True Tempers instructions, it seems it is ok to have the insert above the headset bearing as long as there is no more than 4cm of spacers below the stem and that there is no more than a total of 8cm of stack height.

What is troublesome is that Cervelo is contradicting the manufacture's instructions.

Yes, True Tempers instructions and Cervelo's instruction contradict (well, they do now anyway).

I think my LBS followed True Temper's instructions well. Funny thing is before I even got a chance to call them, the owner saw this thread! He called me at work today and I've spoke to him. Excellent shop and I'm confident he is concerned as well and will make things right. I'm on my 2nd bike from them (prior Guru) and will continue to go there.

Again, my concerne is for the lack of continuity between Cervelo, True Temper, and most important, the riders!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I have a feeling there are a few folks out there who are going to want to talk to you and be sure that you are quite happy with the solution to this little mess....


What is "pain and suffering" worth? $14million jer honor!

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

that bike shop is top notch and is really great they called.

"The initial question above, begs another question: if a notice went [should have written what I meant: "was or will be sent"] to dealers and customers telling them to check the forks, who pays for the fix if the fork is installed incorrectly?"

Your question is a good one, but presupposes information that is just flat out not true. What I consider to be the biggest failure in this whole situation is that Cervelo did not send out a notice to customers. Whether or not dealers received the notice is another question that I am not prepared to answer because I just don't know. I do know, however, that many (read: most if not all) Cervelo dealers did not notify customers once they did become aware of the problem. Affected Cervelo owners only found out about the Wolf SL fork problems after reading forums such as this one. I know for a fact that some Cervelo dealers did not notify customers even after other customers brought the problem to their attention. Maybe Cervelo is handling through their website forum??? LOL. Read through that earlier. Certainly not indicative of their usual standard of communication and marketing. Where is Gerard? Who's minding the store?

Who knows who is more at fault for the improper fork installation. The fact that the problem is not isolated to a particular bike shop suggests that there may be plenty of blame to share. It is without question, however, that Cervelo, True Temper and Cervelo LBS failed in what I believe is their ultimate responsibily: putting cyclist on safe equipment.

Shifting the subject somewhat, while Cervelo touts the fact that CSC rides the same bikes as sold to public, I have to wonder how many of Cervelo's customers are really capable of riding with the amount of handlebar drop intended for those bikes. While rroof is, I'd guess that most are not.
.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Who actually makes this fork? Merida?

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

See: George Hincapie @ Roubaix

Hi Rod,

Very sorry to hear about your accident. I understand from your other post that the dealer is already taking care of you, obviously if there is anything you want to contact Cervelo or me about directly, feel free (gerard@cervelo.com).

I haven’t been on forums in a while due to some unrelated things, but somebody sent me this thread. First point, since we are a growing company, our customer service group continues to grow as well and we have added quite a few people recently, so I think you will find us very responsive to questions you may have about this or anything else, so please don't hesitate to contact us.

We are aware of the issues and concerns being expressed in this forum with the Wolf SL fork which is manufactured for Cervelo by True Temper Sports / Alpha Q. To address these concerns with the fork we supply as original equipment, the correct installation instructions for the Wolf SL fork have been posted in the Manuals section of the Cervelo website at the following link: http://www.cervelo.com/...ForkInstallation.pdf. Please take the time to read and understand these instructions as they pertain not only to the initial installation of the fork, but also to adjustments of the stem or headset, and to inspection of the fork for damage (which we recommend for all forks and other parts as a general practice).

If after reading these instructions you have any questions or concerns about the Cervelo instructions referenced above, please contact our customer service department at 1-866-CERVELO. Alternately, any concerns with Alpha Q-branded instructions provided with the Wolf SL or Alpha Q forks should be directed to True Temper / Alpha Q to have these concerns addressed directly by their customer service team.

Finally, anyone who has any concerns about their Wolf SL fork, or any fork provided as original equipment on a Cervelo bicycle, to please contact Cervelo’s customer service department at 1-866-CERVELO to have this resolved. We will work closely with our dealers to ensure that all customers are happy with their purchases of Cervelo products.

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

And again - Gerard shows why it is that so so many people love and support Cervelo.

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Thanks Gerard. I've since been contacted by Chris from your customer service dept. as well and my LBS before I even got a chance to call them. Not quite my intention with this post, but I'm absolutely amazed at the far reaching effects of this forum.

You may forget, but you e-mailed me when I first got my SLC (I was one of the first) and this all goes a long way. I am and will remain a very loyal Cervelo customer (as are many on this board).

I hope this now GIANT thread mainly serves to show how parts fail. We all have "high performance" stuff here (5K bike and $500 fork just doesn't even register with most people!) and use it to the fullest (in our hidden desire to be a team CSC wannabe I suppose). I admittedly don't think much about safety until these threads come up from time to time - and this one will certainly have a happy ending for sure. Saving just one other cyclist will make it worth it!

Thanks again for your concern Gerard!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Glad to hear it wasn't any worse!

Any worries about your Planet-X carbon steerer? I don't remember any aluminum inserts coming with mine....

-David

Gerard-
Let me say that I am glad to see that both you and Chris from customer service have taken measures to ensure that your customers are pleased with their Cervelo products. I bought my SLC from the same shop as rroof and have to say that they are one of the most well regarded tri shops in the midwest and have been more than helpful in getting me on well fitting bikes that are safe to ride. I am not sure how much that matters to Cervelo or other large bike companies, but you should feel confident that my LBS is representing your company very well here in south western Ohio. I have the 75mm insert Wolf SL fork and I am, frankly, scared to ride it. I talked with the owner about my fork (still just a frameset and not built up yet) and he has assured me that my SLC will be safe to ride when it leaves his shop. That is good enough for me as their reputation and experience makes their word solid. Good shop, good owner and good mechanics- hopefully that is as important to you as it is to your customers. From what I have seen from your forum, that kind of customer service from the LBS is not universal and I am fortunate enough to be one of their customers. Tough Monday, but it sound like you are working through it. :) Take care.

Hell yeah! I just went and checked after speaking with Record10 on the phone about some other forks that we have been comparing. Learning a TON about this now! The steerer tube on the Planet X fork (and apparently Look and Reynolds) is 2-3 times as thick (hence no aluminum sleeve insert).

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Wow, hadn't noticed how much thinner the steerer tube on the wolf fork is. I have the Wolf CL on my cervelo with the aluminum tube.

Gerard,

do you have the same instructions for the 75mm insert shipped with previous forks (2006 in my case). Or can you at least describe the key measurements in comparison. Thx.

Hi Jeff (and others),

If you have any questions whatsoever with regards to the instructions, please contact our customer service. I hope you can understand I cannot answer every question myself, that's why we have a whole group of people manning (and womanning) the phones. Honestly, they don't mind if you call, that's how they earn a living. If you would stop calling them, they would be out of a job.

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

Hi cincytri,

Of course the quality of the shop is important to us, I would say it is the most important aspect of the chain. They are the ones who represent us in an area, and they have total influence about how good your experience with us is. there are 4000 bike shops in the US, maybe 400 contact us every year to become a dealer, and we maybe pick 40 of those. We could easily open them up those 400 stores, but we don't think that is the right approach.

Now, it is not that easy to gauge a shop's performance. Of course we visit the stores, and get a reasonable impression. But most important would be customer feedback. Strangely enough, while everybody loves to complain, very few people ever give positive feedback when they are treated well. People simply expect good service, which is reasonable enough, except that it is not that common nowadays. So it's good to point out good service from time to time, not only to help us evaluate stores, but also because they deserve it. So thanks for the feedback on your store.

Now unfortunately, I will slowly have to retreat again, not because I don't like slowtwitch anymore, but because some other, less pleasant things are eating up my time these months.

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

The issue is (and I am sure you are aware of this) the fact that those instructions do nothing for people like rroof and others who have the 75mm insert.

Those instructions are awesome and very clear, the fact that something similar hasn't been posted for those of us with 07 and previous model year bikes only adds to the confusion and fear that something may be wrong with our forks and you don't want to post clear instructions because it will mean opening yourself to big problems.

You are aware there are forks with 2 different length inserts, so why only one set of instructions??

Please help! I have contacted customer service as well, all I am asking is to be able to ride my bike worry free.

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

What did customer service say when you contacted them? Or has your LBS helped at all?

Haven't heard back from Cervelo CS yet. Waiting to go to the LBS until I have definitive instructions and measurements regarding the forks shipped with the 75mm insert. I will have them check it. If it is not Ok, then I will deal with Cervelo for a warranty replacement fork I suppose.

Although, I am guessing they are going to want to pass me along to Alpha Q.

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

Nice sidestep. The problem is your customer service doesn't know the answer either and with differences ranging up to 15mm existing installs can be in violation or not. Given that the original instructions did not mention anything about the 70mm or 65mm limitations the assumption should be that the majority of forks are installed incorrectly. This is what was posted by a Cervelo employee on your forum trying to address the issue. Given that there are probably thousands of SL's pre 125mm insert this is a significant safety issue and Cervelo needs to step up to the plate before someone gets killed.

"On the topic of the maximum steerer height above the frame for Wolf SL that use 75 mm inserts, True Temper’s recommendation is the same 80 mm. We have posted in two locations our own recommendation for this dimension: 70 mm in the manual section of our website, and 65 mm by me on this forum. Both were derived by the same thought process but the 65 mm value had more margin of error incorporated into it to account of how accurate someone would be with their measurement. The 70 mm value has been deemed more than adequate at this time. The concern that people have expressed on this forum is that Cervelo’s recommendation of 70 mm is lower than that of the True Temper’s instructions of 80 mm. The 70 mm limitation is our recommendation; however the steerer is built using True Temper’s technology and their evaluation criteria may differ from our own."

While I will admit that I haven't taken the time to fully research this issue yet, from a first hand description RRoof gave me, the failure he experienced sounds as though it was caused by stress concentration at the transition where the (shorter) aluminum sleeve erinforces the carbon steerer. I'm a mechanical engineer and this is my trade, though as I stated I haven't researched fully yet, so that is my 'best guess' at this point.

The purpose of my post here is to advise any of you who have the shorter reinforcing tube to either STOP using it, or at the very least, have the setup inspected by someone competent to find damage, AND identify a possible stress concentration, before trusting your neck to this piece of crucial equipment. Not to sound too alarmist here, but being one who has crashed plenty of times, I'd rather see people stay safe!

Cheers, Frasertri. :-)

---

"If I had all the money I'd spent on drink, I'd spend it on drink!" (Winston Churchill, I think..)

i take no pride in saying that I too snapped a WOlf SL fork, probably in exactly the same place. thing had been running fine, no issues, setup perfectly, insert perfectly setup, spacers and stack height all within tolerances....
and heading out for a ride, 5 seconds inot the ride, cracko----- and the steerer snaps.
wasnt good at all. went back and grabbed backup bike and rode on.

competitive cyclists warranty'd the fork for me, but i also bot a wolf CL, the alloy steerer, which ihave been using since. i never really worried about allcarbon forks until that crack.
thankfully, i just sort of put a knee down, had just put the foot on the pedals and was going about 1mph. no impact, no damage to me other than my stress levels.

since i've been riding the wolf CL. nothing like spending unspeakable amounts of money on a uber-lite, SLC SL, only 200grams less than a regular one, and giving 1/2 that back because their darn carbon forks break.

i have the SL on my racing bike, but am sticking with the CL on the training bike. too many training miles, too little to gain. too much too lose.
**oh, and competitive cyclist WARRANTIED the entire frame and fork. they assured me that while other shops might just send a fork, CERVELO was usually adamant about wanting the frame back as well. while i hated the situation, didnt stink getting a brand new frame though zero was at issue with the old one.

is there any new news on this? is this a confrimed fork issue with their alpha sq "wolf sl"/s? i've read a few stories pretty similar.

alloy bars , in my opinion, ar ethe sure-fire way to go. i'm a weight nut like anyone, but after seeing bars and stems snap in fast moving race fields barrelling to the finish lines, i am now riding Deda alloy bars and stems. they weigh the same. they have a new titanium finish which is super nice, and its very re-assuring, to some extent, to know that your bar or stem wont snap if you are whomping the balls out of your bike in the last 1k of a race, or a climb, or you get clipped and go down and need to get back up to finish a race or training ride.
you can crank down that stem very securely, crank the shifter pods onto the drops very securely, etc. and not worry about cracking fragile carbon stuff.
i used to race all kinds of carbon bars, stems, then too an accounting of how hard i'm actually pounding those pieces, and what the downside is when stuff cracks. stem or bar cracks, ther eis no coming back. immediate catastrophe.
i'm a weight geek to the max, but in the area of stem/bar, alloy is the trick for me.

Well, Cervelo continues to dance around the issue (see their forum for details for installation spec changes, etc.), but have been taking care of people's concerns and/or requests, but are stopping short of saying anything is "wrong" with the fork(s).

Needless to say I did NOT put a Wolf or Alpha Q fork back on my bike! I thought about the CL, then a lightweight Easton, but decided for an old tried and true Reynolds Ouzo Pro (previously had one on my Vortex). Still reasonably light, VERY stiff (more of a priority for me than comfort), with solid crown, metal dropouts (I take the wheel on/off a lot), etc. But most important, I'm *confident* in the fork (and I carefully looked at, inspected, read, talked, etc. a lot of forks).

I try to support my LBS (who took very good care of me during this process), but I've consistently heard very good things about competitive cyclist if you have to order online (say, you live a long way from a good bike shop).

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

relative to safety and personal injury, this is a moot point...but...that SL and CL is a wicked aerodynamic fork. most tunnel studies including our time at MIT'd tunnel show that the fork isa HUGE component in the aerodynamic equation. that fork, we tested relative to a true temper was somehting like 40seconds in a 40k tt. that huge.
so while i dig going to another fork, its TOTALLY unacceptable for them not to address this since the whole premise of marketing that SLC SL and that WOLF SL fork is a) uber lite weight and b) aerodynamics.

dressing it down to an alternative fork is maybe the secure, safe alternative, but if we have ot do that, then i might as well buy a Scott addict or something that weighs less. my fram is a $4k frameset, buil tto be moderately light but very aero. a non aero fork is not acceptable.
sometimes these bike companies dance too much. then they piss off customers who take their entire teams onto other bikes.
heck, i have a number of TT wins on my p3c for 2 years. i just ordered an Argon E-114.

am i mistaken, but hasnt cervelo sat on their laurels a bit the last 3 years? i mean, what major changes have they introduced, innovated on that p3c, slc?
sorry for the rant. i guess that comes when you have concerns about your steerer snapping.

I hear you on the aero part, which is why I thought about the CL. But Hincapies alloy steerer failure as well on a lightweight fork ... Back to the confidence issue bombing down hills at 45+ mph. My LBS tried to find a Reynolds Aero (discontinued and deemed UCI illegal I think because of the width), but couldn't. I use this bike as my main trainer and for road racing, so aero isn't as much of a concern in the pack. I have a separate dedicated tri/TT bike.

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Happy you're ok, that could have gone horribly pear shaped. I took my Alpha Q off my Soloist Carbon about a year ago. I had problems with the insert coming unbonded when preloading the headset (prob due to the humidity in Singapore?). When I took it out, saw that the compression ring had rubbed a very light indentation in the steerer. Given the thin walls, decided to junk the fork - I had always been a bit uncomfortable about the super thin steerer anyways. Have been riding the old no-name fork from my crashed R2.5 for over a year now. I went through the scary-light phase of mt biking in the early 90s when I was running a shop, taught me that 100g is not worth losing your teeth or life. You've motivated me to order a new fork for my Soloist today and I've been going through the same though process on the Easton and the CL. How do you like the Reynolds? Does it integrate well with the Soloist head tube?
Thanks
J

---

_____________________________________________________
"Oh man, it's going to take days to kill all these people!" - Jens Voigt

"Does it integrate well with the Soloist head tube"

It is OK. Not as "sleek" since the SLC head tube is so narrow, so you see a little "shoulder" at the interface, but only because I (and you) would likely be looking for it. I haven't had any chance to ride it yet extensively, but I felt the Wolf was pretty stiff, so I don't think there will be any noticeable difference in ride quality or handling (except the new confidence of the rider!)

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

---

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Cool, would like it to be seamless but prefer to have confidence. Have a 4 day stage race in mtns of Thailand in 2 months and have trying to decide what to do about the fork. 90km downhills on very crap road surface requires confidence. Sprinter so want stiffness as well, Ouzo sounds perfect. Ordering Ouzo from Excel as we speak...

Thanks for getting me off my ass on this. Really think Cervelo going to have fallout from this as the internet momentum increases.
J

---

_____________________________________________________
"Oh man, it's going to take days to kill all these people!" - Jens Voigt

So with all this talk about fork failures in general, I've now purchased a Wolf CL fork. Question I now have is what star nut is going to fit correctly in the aluminum steerer? I've read previous posts that some fit too loose. Any recommendations?

---

=====================================
"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

I have no idea, but I would think any star nut would work since they are tapped in place and compress when inserted

If not, just use a compression plug (like for a carbon steerer) since this only serves to pre-load the headset bearings before tightening the stem (i.e. you don't need a lot of torque/force for this - always follow torque specs (on the high side generally) with a torque wrench if possible).

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Gotcha. OK. For some reason I always thought aluminum steerer equated to using a star nut config. I've got the FSA compressor plug, so will use that. Thanks!

---

=====================================
"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

It seems like all3sports is going to step up and issue me a Wolf CL. I am looking forward to finally riding my new bike with confidence. Cervelo's response (or nonresponse) to this issue has been disappointing.

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

http://cpsc.gov/.../prhtml08/08368.html

NEWS from CPSC
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission

Office of Information and Public Affairs Washington, DC 20207

---

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
August 20, 2008
Release #08-368
Firm's Recall Hotline: (866) 296-3137
CPSC Recall Hotline: (800) 638-2772
CPSC Media Contact: (301) 504-7908

Cervélo SA Recalls Bicycle Forks Due to Fall Hazard
WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, in cooperation with the firm named below, today announced a voluntary recall of the following consumer product. Consumers should stop using recalled products immediately unless otherwise instructed.
Name of Product: Wolf SL Carbon Fiber Bicycle Forks
Units: About 5,800
Importer: Cervélo SA, of Switzerland
Manufacturer: True Temper Composite Material Products Co. Ltd, of Guangzhou, China
Hazard: The forks steerer can break during normal use, causing the rider to lose control, fall and suffer serious injuries.
Incidents/Injuries: Cervelo has received 12 reports of forks cracking or breaking, resulting in one consumer suffering a broken wrist and another suffering minor abrasions.
Description: The recalled forks have a clear coating over black painted carbon fiber, with the words “Wolf Superlite” and related logo just below the crown on each fork leg, and the letters “SL” on each leg above the fork blade dropouts. There is a True Temper CRT™ logo on the inside of both fork legs. The recalled forks could have been included on the following bicycle models: R3, R3 SL, Soloist Carbon, Soloist Carbon SL, and certain P3 Carbon framesets and complete bicycles.
Sold by: Independent bicycle retailers nationwide from November 2005 through July 2007 for about $475.
Manufactured in: China
Remedy: Consumers should immediately stop using bicycles equipped with the recalled forks and contact their authorized Cervélo dealer to have a free replacement fork installed.
Consumer Contact: For additional information, contact Cervélo toll-free at (866) 296-3137 between 10 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET Monday through Friday, or visit the firm’s Web site at http://www.cervelo.com/WolfSLRecall
Media Contact: Peter Donato at Special Assignment Inc. at (416) 964-6118.

---

Send the link for this page to a friend! The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of serious injury or death from more than 15,000 types of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. Deaths, injuries and property damage from consumer product incidents cost the nation more than $800 billion annually. The CPSC is committed to protecting consumers and families from products that pose a fire, electrical, chemical, or mechanical hazard. The CPSC's work to ensure the safety of consumer products - such as toys, cribs, power tools, cigarette lighters, and household chemicals - contributed significantly to the decline in the rate of deaths and injuries associated with consumer products over the past 30 years.

To report a dangerous product or a product-related injury, call CPSC's hotline at (800) 638-2772 or CPSC's teletypewriter at (800) 638-8270, or visit CPSC's web site at www.cpsc.gov/talk.html. To join a CPSC email subscription list, please go to https://www.cpsc.gov/cpsclist.aspx. Consumers can obtain this release and recall information at CPSC's Web site at www.cpsc.gov.

Wow! Well, this is exactly what I hoped would/should have occured (same thing Reynolds did with their dropout bonding issues they discovered in their new fork). Funny that I'm the guy with the "abrasions" ;-) I really don't want anyone else being injured as I was heading for some serious hill work and wouldn't have wanted mine to fail at 45 mph!

Thanks for the post!

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Hmmm... I'm not too impressed by the date of your first post, and the date of this recall.

I'm even less impressed by the number of failures prior to the recall.

You think that twelve failures out of, what, probably a few thousand (?) such forks sold since 2005 represents an obvious pattern? I don't, at least not for a product where failures can be readily caused by user (installation) error or crash damage.

I do, for two reasons: 1) it seems there has been a fair bit of confusion regarding the proper installation of the fork in the first place, and 2) when you look at both the total number of reported failures, and the percentage of total failures in comparison to other bicycle products which have been recalled, both of those numbers seem quite high to me. That's my opinion, of course. People are certainly free to peruse the CPSC website and form their own conclusions, though.

Logically, wouldn't that tend to delay any eventual recall, not hasten it?

1) really? it isn't that hard to RTFM (much like the felt DA problems)... it really comes down to consumers and shop employees that think it looks like a duck and so should quack like a duck and install like a duck.

2) really - the cpsc says ~5800 in the field (hell, I have two!) so 12 represents 0.2% which I would say is a pretty pro-active response from cervelo.

FWIW, I am happy that I can get anew fork outta the deal especially considering the funda is faster than the wolf sl...

:D

g

---

greg
www.wattagetraining.com

I just bought a used SLC with the Wolf SL fork. It looks like I will be calling Cervelo for a new fork once the bike arrives. This is good to know.

Hmmm...

Lawyer by chance?

---

---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Cervelo's take (from their "eNews" email):

True Temper Sports Wolf SL Fork Voluntary Recall

Cervélo has identified a potential safety issue involving the Wolf SL fork. This fork is designed and manufactured by True Temper Sports of Memphis, Tennessee, using a blade shape supplied by Cervélo. All other aspects of the structural design, development and manufacture were done by True Temper Sports.

Under certain conditions, the fork steerer can crack and eventually break during normal use, which may cause the rider to lose control, fall and suffer potentially serious injuries. To date, there have been reports of injuries in the field resulting in minor abrasions and one broken wrist.

Though the fork passes US and international standards, this particular problem was not uncovered during those standard tests and the fork only showed this weakness in the field, typically after being damaged. After much work, we did develop a new test protocol that was able to replicate the same failure mode as seen in the field. If the fork steerer is damaged by impact (eg. by a crash, a fall from a roof rack, or another impact) then the damage may progress very quickly during use to complete separation.

We have seen that incidence of failure on this fork is higher than on other forks, and there is a potential for injury upon failure. True Temper Sports feels that the fork meets the industry standards and that the fork is therefore acceptable and no further action is required. Cervélo does not share this opinion and therefore, is proceeding with a recall of the True Temper designed and manufactured Wolf SL forks ourselves. True Temper Sports has declined to participate.

In order to conduct a recall one must be able to demonstrate that any replacement product does not display the same failure mode. We have demonstrated to the authorities that the forks we will use as a replacement - the 3T Funda Pro and the Easton EC90 SLX - pass all standard industry tests as well as the new Cervélo test that the True Temper Wolf SL fork fails.

We have obviously discontinued all use of the True Temper Wolf SL carbon bicycle fork. However, please note that this does not affect the Wolf CL and Wolf TT in any way, as both have a completely different structural design (and have passed the new Cervélo test protocol).

Although it is not usual for a third party to recall a product manufactured by another company, we feel it is a necessary step to take care of our customer, and we will proceed with the full recall at no cost to the dealer or consumer.

---

******************************************************
Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze

This is the new fork that came with my SLC that I just bought but this is the fork that I will not be riding now.

Twelve per 5800 is more than a pattern, it's a freaking five alarm fire. There is simply no excuse for a consumer product failing twice for every 1000 sold. Particularly when consequences of the failure could result in serious injury. (Based on the Cervelo notices posted by Keyser, it doens't look like installation error was the culprit, but even if it was, design of a product that invites such a high rate of installation error is, in itself, a defect.) For comparison, in the notorious Bridgestone/Firestone-Ford Explorer cases, the alleged defect rate was 241 per million tires, or 0.02 %.

Now, having said that, Cervelo's response appears to have been prompt and reasonable. The delay in the recall apparently was the result of having to design and implement testing protocols to determine why the forks were failing. Also, to do the recall when True Temper wouldn't reflects very favorably on Cervelo (and poorly on True Temper).

From a business standpoint, the recall was a no-brainer. Suppose the cost for replacement forks is $300 x 5800 plus additional costs, it will come to about $2,000,000. If you have even one bad injury resulting from steerer failure, that case can easily cost you over $2,000,000.
.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

really? it isn't that hard to RTFM (much like the felt DA problems)...

Normally, I would agree with you, but if you knew the details of this situation, you would know that the FM changed. My Wolf SL fork was installed fine according to the original FM, but then the FM was revised as the first reports of these failures came out and my fork which had been fine was now improperly installed (with regards to the steerer tube length).

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

I am not sure that number is that high, but I can give you the reason for the time span between the first report and the recall. We had to recall a product we did not design or manufacturer, so we had to proof to the CPSC that we knew what the problem was, and that any replacement would not have that problem. In this particular case, that would have been difficult to do by the desiging company as the way to achieve the problem was unusual, and the fork passed all standard industry tests for forks without a problem. It was even more difficult for us, since we did not have the design history or manufacturing history, and could not even obtain the lay-up schedules.

---

Gerard Vroomen
3T.bike
OPEN cycle

I read a post made by someone claiming to know someone from True Temper who said there was no general Wolf SL fork problem, but only a problem in combination with FSA stems. And that the FSA stem clamping area has since been changed to help this problem. But I can't find this post again, has it been deleted?

Maybe it was on the other thread, bike shop owners cervelo fork recall, or something like that.
.

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Yes, I think that was deleted ...

And yes, it was a 3rd party saying his "friend" at True Temper was faulting some FSA stems. And yes, I did have an FSA stem since that is what the spec was (including team CSC). I highly doubt this was the problem, but we don't know the specifics of Cervelo's in house failure protocal that they did for the USPSC (but I doubt it involved a specific stem).

---

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

No matter what I replace my Alu bars every three years or so..

Damn, my alu bars are 12 years old! Maybe I'll go pick up a new one.

---

----
Don't hold back

I ran into a friend of mine in California who had a terrible bike wreck about 3 months ago. He was doing one of the big descents near San Jose and lost control of his bike... Then he got to ride on the helicopter.

Anyway. I asked how he was doing and he said that it turned out that it wasnt his bike handling skills... it was fork.

---

Checkout http://www.iotexpert.com

I'm not sure if my forks were Wolf SL, they were definitely True Temper / Alpha Q all carbon forks.

The bike was a Guru, you can see the picture here of it from when I first had it http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rus/Aeroti_P2145590/

After about 700-miles, I was out on a multisports training camp in September with Roch Frey, Jimmy R, Matt etc. riding down the road and we stopped at a light... just before I felt the bars move and I thought it was odd. When I stood up and pulled on the bars to move away, they came off in my hands, I slipped forward and "winded" myself, but was mostly very embarrassed. I'd only just met these folks and this happened. Heather Fuhr came to collect me, que more embarrassment...

Everyone agreed it was a freak. I borrowed another fork set for the rest of the camp, and when I got home took the bike back to the shop, they also thought it was a freak and organised a replacement set, painted to match. Guess what, after no more than another 250-miles, I was leading a shop ride, my last before IMAZ and I felt the telltale wiggle while on the aero bars. I was very, very careful for the remaining 5-miles of the ride, when I got back to the shop we took the bars apart and they had started to SPLIT in exactly the same place.

I spoke to Bert Hull at Alpha Q / True Temper briefly but he wasn't very forthcoming, preferring to deal with the shop. I'll head to the bike shop at the w/e to collect my bike after the Tri Bike transport drop-off and see what the issue is...