I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap

Oct 26, 07 13:03

Post #1 of 544 Views: 28516

I'm searching for the perfect Slowtwitch thread title and this may be it. It's a little long, I know. :-)

I'm too lazy to give the background here and I figure most regular STers will get it. Anyway, I met up with Joaquin this afternoon in Soto Del Real, a small town a few miles away from Miraflores (the base of the climb up La Morcuera). Super nice guy; he was a little blind-sided by being thrust into the center of the ongoing Slowtwitch Frank Day vs. The World show. I tried to explain that it wasn't him (mostly).

I expected to get waxed up the climb, and Joaquin didn't disappoint. He rode an old aluminum Cannondale with the Powercranks and a set of Zipp wheels with a Powertap SL. I was on my POS road bike with my PT, unfortunately with no CPU because the damn thing's sitting here in my hotel room dead as a doornail. Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill.

We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was about a minute off of his best time on the climb, (edit: 28' 38" today), and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

We took a couple of pictures at the sign at the top, froze our asses off descending, and had a beer before parting ways. I hope I'll be able to ride with him more in the future.

Finishing up, I have no idea whether the Powercranks are responsible for his power output, and I find Frank's incessant posts regarding them as annoying as anyone. Like somebody said in one of the recent threads, I probably would've tried them a long time ago for a bit less money and with a lot less hucksterism.

Bottom line though: Joaquin's for real. Here's a guy past 40, 3 kids, traveling job, and he's putting out a LOT of power, especially at a body weight of 62k. I'd be happy if I could match that power at my weight of 83k. I figured after some of the hostile posts regarding him, this might even the scales.

Kendall Frederick
currently sitting in a Madrid hotel room..

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Last edited by: KendallF: Oct 27, 07 11:01

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:21

Post #2 of 544 Views: 28448

Thanks for the post.

I would love to have a few of these folks even try to ride on the PC's. They may have a real reason why they do not want to
try them. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:45

Post #3 of 544 Views: 28385

No doubt he has to be in top notch shape to beat you.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:56

Post #4 of 544 Views: 28341

And the mystique of Joaqin grows...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [beatnic_tx] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 13:58

Post #5 of 544 Views: 28335

In Reply To:

No doubt he has to be in top notch shape to beat you.

That's not the point. Perhaps your daughter, riding her tricycle, could beat me up La Morcuera. I don't really care. If Joaquin can put out that kind of wattage riding the PCs up a 10% grade, he's a good cyclist.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:01

Post #6 of 544 Views: 28327

I am so, SO, looking forward to seeing this thread reach its full potential...

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Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:12

Post #7 of 544 Views: 28282

I can only imagine...thoughts of debates on the "right" way to pedal, the mechanism that makes us get faster, and how to interpret Joaquin's power file are dancing in my head....

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:14

Post #8 of 544 Views: 28272

this phrase alone can inspire at least 1000 posts.

Quote:

said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range

this thread should be a mandatory read for WVU...'s Tri 101 class this spring ;-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:21

Post #9 of 544 Views: 28245

Well, you aren't giving us much info at all, and it's way precipitous to say this :0), but here goes -

if Joaquin was pushing 340 up that short climb, and the average wattage for the long climb was in the neighborhood of 358, with a HR in the "180 range," we all need to get ready for a long litany of excuses from Frank again - 'cause that ain't gonna cut the mustard to support the claims that have been made - not even close...

VO2 Max. 5794 ml/min
VO2 Max rel. 85,46 ml/min/kg
Max Power 451 Watts at 181 bpm_
FTP (1 hour): 394 Watts at 169 bpm at 87% of VO2 Max

:0)

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:34

Post #10 of 544 Views: 28213

I don't think the power numbers from the blood lactate test are valid either. Don't know how much gain he's made, don't know if the PCs are responsible. I'm just a guy who thought it'd be fun to ride up the climb with Joaquin while I'm here for my real job (which sure as hell isn't power testing, Powercranks, or anything similar).

The poor guy just got dumped into the Frank Day War(tm), got lots of slurs tossed in his direction, and it turns out he's a pretty damn good cyclist. Forget about Frank's claims for a minute. Joaquin's a good rider and I enjoyed meeting him and doing the climb with him.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:40

Post #11 of 544 Views: 28185

I think, if you want all of ST just to realize Joaquin is a good rider, barring anything else, you should have posted a title that said something about "I met Joaquin and had fun riding up a hill with him."

As soon as you mention PC's, La Morcuera, Powertaps, and Watts, you're already starting a new battle!

:-)

And I can't wait to watch the ensuing car wreck!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:44

Post #12 of 544 Views: 28172

In Reply To:

I think, if you want all of ST just to realize Joaquin is a good rider, barring anything else, you should have posted a title that said something about "I met Joaquin and had fun riding up a hill with him."

As soon as you mention PC's, La Morcuera, Powertaps, and Watts, you're already starting a new battle!

:-)

And I can't wait to watch the ensuing car wreck!

This is absolutely true. I couldn't resist.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 14:52

Post #13 of 544 Views: 28144

Oh, I don't blame you! I'd do exactly the same thing.

The real problem is something you've already touched on, Joaquin is probably a nice enough guy. He just got thrown into the middle of this and between Frank and Joaquin, they couldn't get the proof everyone else was looking for.

Anyway...let the battle begin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:00

Post #14 of 544 Views: 28123

Calling Bill Murray � calling the groundhog � please report to duty immediately��
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Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:03

Post #15 of 544 Views: 28114

In Reply To:

Well, you aren't giving us much info at all, and it's way precipitous to say this :0), but here goes -

if Joaquin was pushing 340 up that short climb, and the average wattage for the long climb was in the neighborhood of 358, with a HR in the "180 range," we all need to get ready for a long litany of excuses from Frank again - 'cause that ain't gonna cut the mustard to support the claims that have been made - not even close...

VO2 Max. 5794 ml/min
VO2 Max rel. 85,46 ml/min/kg
Max Power 451 Watts at 181 bpm_
FTP (1 hour): 394 Watts at 169 bpm at 87% of VO2 Max

:0)

.

Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says. He did say it was a minute off his best time and I think he was expecting to set a PR and I think even you would agree that not everybody can have their best day everyday. Or, maybe we can't even agree on that.

Anyhow, I don't make this stuff up. The test results were the test results. This climb was this climb. I simply pass on what people report.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:18

Post #16 of 544 Views: 28084

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

Avg. Power of 358
Time at La Morcuera that is a minute (or roughly 3% slower) than his PB.

A CP30 of 5.77 is certainly very impressive, but that should, I think, have resulted in a significantly faster time than he'd ever done before. It's also almost exactly 5.8, which is, conveniently, the number he thought he could hit. Tiltheend lives in the area and holds a PB up that climb of ~30 min weighing ~64kg and putting out 301watts.

I'm waiting to see the actual power file. Though, after all of this, it makes me think, simply put that the dudes powermeter is miscalibrated. That could explain a lot. 5.8w/kg, based on what was covered in the liar, liar encyclopedia (too long to be a thread), should have resulted in a vast PB.

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE... (even the 280->340 time drop does not compute). My guess? Either he "thought" he averaged 358w (I don't know enough about the powertap to know how intervals work, so maybe he didn't hit the interval button, just guessed off the number he saw? Is there an interval button?). Or his powertap is broken. Or he is lying. Or the definitions of the physical world have changed...

EDIT: tiltheend does not live in the area, but those numbers were from a cyclist who does, and who posted that comment on the wattage forum on google.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Oct 26, 07 15:20

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:27

Post #17 of 544 Views: 28067

"He did say it was a minute off his best time and I think he was expecting to set a PR and I think even you would agree that not everybody can have their best day everyday."

Excuse #1. Should we keep a tally?

The OP is right on, in my opinion; I feel for Joa...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Last edited by: fredly: Oct 26, 07 15:30

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:35

Post #18 of 544 Views: 28052

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:42

Post #19 of 544 Views: 28038

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

Avg. Power of 358
Time at La Morcuera that is a minute (or roughly 3% slower) than his PB.

A CP30 of 5.77 is certainly very impressive, but that should, I think, have resulted in a significantly faster time than he'd ever done before. It's also almost exactly 5.8, which is, conveniently, the number he thought he could hit. Tiltheend lives in the area and holds a PB up that climb of ~30 min weighing ~64kg and putting out 301watts.

I'm waiting to see the actual power file. Though, after all of this, it makes me think, simply put that the dudes powermeter is miscalibrated. That could explain a lot. 5.8w/kg, based on what was covered in the liar, liar encyclopedia (too long to be a thread), should have resulted in a vast PB.

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE... (even the 280->340 time drop does not compute). My guess? Either he "thought" he averaged 358w (I don't know enough about the powertap to know how intervals work, so maybe he didn't hit the interval button, just guessed off the number he saw? Is there an interval button?). Or his powertap is broken. Or he is lying. Or the definitions of the physical world have changed...

EDIT: tiltheend does not live in the area, but those numbers were from a cyclist who does, and who posted that comment on the wattage forum on google.

Finally, somebody actually looking at the data and asking serious questions about some "inconsistencies" but also wanting to wait to see the power file. I agree. To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

I might add that about a month ago Joaquin thought he would be over 350 watts (on his powermeter) on this climb but not near 400 watts because he had lost some fitness due to his injury.

We should wait to see the power file and see what Joaquin says about the climb before conclusions are drawn.

Either way, we hope to get him tested at the Mapei center soon, and hopefully get it on video tape so everyone can "observe". This will put even more data into the ST furnace. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:45

Post #20 of 544 Views: 28027

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

When was the last time he did a "stomp test" (i.e. static torque test) on the thing?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 15:53

Post #21 of 544 Views: 28014

In Reply To:

To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

Hmmm...you really don't see the difference in the 2 situations? Interesting.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:16

Post #22 of 544 Views: 27984

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

To bad KendallF's computer was down so he is unable to download and save his power file for the ride which could be used as a "reference" for the "accuracy" of Joaquin's power meter when he saw 340 watts. But, I don't see anyone calling him a liar even though his failure is almost identical to Joaquin's over a year ago.

Hmmm...you really don't see the difference in the 2 situations? Interesting.

LOL.

OK, here is the problem. I don't really see any advantage to me in inflating anything. All that means is I am risking getting "caught" doing so. I simply report what people tell me. And, I see little advantage to others in inflating what they have seen as we don't pay for results and all someone is likely to get, if they post here anyhow, is derision.

However, if KendallF, had an operating power meter during this ride, when he looked over and saw Joaquin's at 340 watts, he could have looked at his own and said, "mine was at 280 so I think his is not calibrated correctly", or said, "mine was at 360 so I think his is pretty close to what it was because it felt like 360 to me" or some such thing. All he said was "Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill." Now, if he were to tell us what his threshold is and how much over threshold he thought he was perhaps we will have a better idea as to what Joaquin was actually doing here, and later on in the climb, power wise.

Anyhow, it seems that it doesn't matter what Joaquin does, unless he comes here and confessed he made it all up and he and KendallF decided to perpetuate this fraud on the ST folks over that beer, it seems it will be controversial. Enjoy. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:40

Post #23 of 544 Views: 27941

"Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says"

And when will we be seeing this? I think I'd like to see results, reporting either way (positively or negatively) on PC's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:47

Post #24 of 544 Views: 27931

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

IIRC, which is asking a lot given the number of threads, I don't see these things adding up:

This from the PezCycling interview: "The first really big thing I can document was when I climbed La Marcourera in September. My personal best for this climb was 29'47" done 14 years earlier when I was 24 years old and 4 kg lighter than I am now. In 2005 I was able to do this climb in 30'14". This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts, compared to 280 the year before."

280w = 30:14
340w = 29:47
358w = ~31:00????????????????????????????????

THIS DOES NOT COMPUTE...

That's my fault..I couldn't remember his best time and was too lazy to look it up; I thought it was around 30. Tonight he just said he'd missed his best by about a minute. I was still down the climb huffing and puffing. I probably should've left the numbers out of the post entirely without the power file. Yes, the PT has an interval, and I saw that it was zeroed before we started.

I actually mixed that up. 29:47 was from way back in the day.

It should have been:
280w = 30:14
340w = 27:40
358w = 1 min slower?? 31:00??

358w should have been, according to analytic cycling, another 75seconds faster. That's approximate, obviously. My bad on misreading the article. Which makes a 31 really slow... But what's really odd is that he was a minute slower, instead of 1:15 faster...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Oct 26, 07 16:47

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:51

Post #25 of 544 Views: 27913

As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:55

Post #26 of 544 Views: 19367

"As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic..."

On the flip side, I think it would be as hard to predict that they'd both show up on the same day, and both complete the ride, as it would be to predict what the power file is going to say.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:55

Post #27 of 544 Views: 19367

In Reply To:

"Why don't we wait until we see the power file and see what he says"

And when will we be seeing this? I think I'd like to see results, reporting either way (positively or negatively) on PC's.

You'll see it soon after I see it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 16:56

Post #28 of 544 Views: 19364

perhaps he rode tufos @ 60 psi with tufo tape, and the powercranks weight a lot, and there might have been a significant headwind, and maybe he wore a parachute...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 26, 07 17:28

Post #29 of 544 Views: 19333

"He was a minute off of his best time on the climb....he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) "

"This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts" (from Pez cycling interview)

do you know if the best time Joaquin was referring to was
a) the time posted in the pezcycling interview
b) a faster time he has recorded sometime between the pezcycling interview and the day you rode with him?

option b) might explain the disparity between finish time and wattage....

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [t2k] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 2:59

Post #30 of 544 Views: 19201

In Reply To

As an aside, I think it is hilarious, and perhaps predictable given the way that everything has unfolded, that someone with a powermeter actually shows up to ride with Joaquin, and the battery is dead. Classic...[/reply]
If you had one of the damn things, you wouldn't find it hilarious. :-) I actually pack spare batteries along when I travel with the bike. My CPU's buttons have been intermittent for a couple of months, and finally gave up entirely right before this trip. The waterproofing on them has always been lousy, which is inexplicable when you can buy a $20 Cateye computer that works fine in the rain.

In Reply To:

"He was a minute off of his best time on the climb....he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) "

"This year when I did it my time was 27'40", 90 seconds faster than my previous best. My PowerTap data for this climb averaged 340 watts" (from Pez cycling interview)

do you know if the best time Joaquin was referring to was
a) the time posted in the pezcycling interview
b) a faster time he has recorded sometime between the pezcycling interview and the day you rode with him?

option b) might explain the disparity between finish time and wattage....

No clue. He does have a race bike with power that's much lighter. The guy did the climb yesterday on no lunch and a banana that I gave him before we rode off.

Somebody earlier asked for my FTP: it's around 270; I say around because I haven't tested it in a while. Life gets in the way and I'm lousy at keeping an established test schedule (or any kind of structured program..I have too much going on and have to work out when and where I can). I'm just a 41 year old guy who's lost over 50 pounds due to tri training since 2004; that's reward enough to keep me moving.

Now I'm off to buy presents for my daughters before I fly home Monday!

Kendall Frederick
Orange Park, FL (by way of Madrid)

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 4:50

Post #31 of 544 Views: 19168

Frank~

I've been too lazy to reread all of the background posts (although I have skimmed), so forgive me if this has been mentioned already- is there any reason not to get an independent exc phys lab (such as Duke's K-lab, or one of the others around the country) to test whether PCs are as effective as you believe they are? Clearly this wouldnt be a blind study, but even with a relatively small sample size (let's say N=40, split into the PCs group and the non-PCs group) the data would likely result in some conclusions, or at least some interesting data.

One final thing- I can't help but comment on your statement regarding physicians/scientists. As an engineering PhD who's done a fair amount of research, I'd like to say that most scientists think that docs in fact CAN be scientists. The fact that you draw conclusions from N=1 studies is why one could (and apparently many have?) argue that you're a poor scientist. But that doesn't mean that PCs are ineffective, just that your studies and/or data analysis/conclusions wouldn't stand up to peer review.

-Dave

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 5:31

Post #32 of 544 Views: 19139

OR there was a massive hurricane force headwind blowing down the climb.

Regardless of the PC debate, this guy putting out 358W average is extremely studly for a guy his size. I am the same size (63 kg, now ballooning up to 66) and I can barely hold 270W over an hour climb :-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 6:23

Post #33 of 544 Views: 19105

umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 6:46

Post #34 of 544 Views: 19081

In Reply To:

I'm searching for the perfect Slowtwitch thread title and this may be it. It's a little long, I know. :-)

I'm too lazy to give the background here and I figure most regular STers will get it. Anyway, I met up with Joaquin this afternoon in Soto Del Real, a small town a few miles away from Miraflores (the base of the climb up La Morcuera). Super nice guy; he was a little blind-sided by being thrust into the center of the ongoing Slowtwitch Frank Day vs. The World show. I tried to explain that it wasn't him (mostly).

I expected to get waxed up the climb, and Joaquin didn't disappoint. He rode an old aluminum Cannondale with the Powercranks and a set of Zipp wheels with a Powertap SL. I was on my POS road bike with my PT, unfortunately with no CPU because the damn thing's sitting here in my hotel room dead as a doornail. Just warming up on the way from Soto Del Real to Miraflores, I was pushing over threshold; I looked over at one point and Joaquin was showing 340 watts up a short climb. God knows what that meant for me as I'm carrying approximately 45 pounds more uphill.

We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was a minute off of his best time on the climb, somewhere around 31 minutes, and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

We took a couple of pictures at the sign at the top, froze our asses off descending, and had a beer before parting ways. I hope I'll be able to ride with him more in the future.

Finishing up, I have no idea whether the Powercranks are responsible for his power output, and I find Frank's incessant posts regarding them as annoying as anyone. Like somebody said in one of the recent threads, I probably would've tried them a long time ago for a bit less money and with a lot less hucksterism.

Bottom line though: Joaquin's for real. Here's a guy past 40, 3 kids, traveling job, and he's putting out a LOT of power, especially at a body weight of 62k. I'd be happy if I could match that power at my weight of 83k. I figured after some of the hostile posts regarding him, this might even the scales.

Kendall Frederick
currently sitting in a Madrid hotel room..

Well, I'm affraid there's something wrong in that numbers...

I weight 64kg and have done that climb in 29m16 with 309w.

just in case someone says that conditions vary, the climb is mostly sheltered from the wind, but for the last 1.5km where you can sometimes find a headwind, that could acount for a 30'' diference.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 6:57

Post #35 of 544 Views: 19073

Well, I'm affraid there's something wrong in that numbers...

I, for one, must say that I am shocked - shocked - to find out that the numbers for an athlete that Frank Day has made such outrageous claims about, has inaccurate and totally unbelieveable data involved with it.

Both the athlete himself, and the product salesman, are above reproach in their honesty and integrity.

So, the only answer must be - the PT wasn't properly calibrated/torque wasn't zeroed.
There can be no other logical explanation.
I mean, he wouldn't lie or exaggerate, would he?

www.believeJoaquin.com

All sarcasm aside, I don't think anybody doubts that Joaquin is a decent rider.
Big deal, they are a dime a dozen.

He whooped a heavy tri-dork on a hillclimb. And this is a surprise why?

float , hammer , and jog

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 7:25

Post #36 of 544 Views: 19046

In Reply To:

So, the only answer must be - the PT wasn't properly calibrated/torque wasn't zeroed.

No, that would only INFLATE the power reading.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 7:34

Post #37 of 544 Views: 19036

In Reply To:

umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic

Explain to me how fatigue has a measurable impact on power:speed? Power is power. That's why we train with it. And we are talking about a hillclimb, which is MUCH less variable than a road TT. Road TT's wind and traffic make a huge difference.

Using times to track fitness improvement is clearly inferior to wattage, but using times/wattages DOES indeed provide a "sanity check," which in this case does not add up.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 7:36

Post #38 of 544 Views: 19032

In Reply To:

We got to the base of the climb, I looked at my watch, and waved goodbye. Joaquin pedaled away from me on those goofy cranks and I never saw him after the first curve. Eventually, he came back down the last two kilometers and rode back up with me. He was a minute off of his best time on the climb, somewhere around 31 minutes, and said he'd shown an average wattage of 358 (I think) and heart rate in the 180ish range. I'm pretty sure he gave it all he had. I reached the top at 42 minutes.

Kendall,
IIRC from the "Liar, liar,..." thread, there's 2 sides to the climb, one side is ~6.8% grade while the other is ~8%. Which side did you guys do and what was the length and average grade? Thanks.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 7:37

Post #39 of 544 Views: 19029

In Reply To:

Regardless of the PC debate, this guy putting out 358W average is extremely studly for a guy his size. I am the same size (63 kg, now ballooning up to 66) and I can barely hold 270W over an hour climb :-)

Yeah, that's sort of the point. A bit too studly...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 9:19

Post #40 of 544 Views: 18958

In Reply To:

Frank~

I've been too lazy to reread all of the background posts (although I have skimmed), so forgive me if this has been mentioned already- is there any reason not to get an independent exc phys lab (such as Duke's K-lab, or one of the others around the country) to test whether PCs are as effective as you believe they are? Clearly this wouldnt be a blind study, but even with a relatively small sample size (let's say N=40, split into the PCs group and the non-PCs group) the data would likely result in some conclusions, or at least some interesting data.

One final thing- I can't help but comment on your statement regarding physicians/scientists. As an engineering PhD who's done a fair amount of research, I'd like to say that most scientists think that docs in fact CAN be scientists. The fact that you draw conclusions from N=1 studies is why one could (and apparently many have?) argue that you're a poor scientist. But that doesn't mean that PCs are ineffective, just that your studies and/or data analysis/conclusions wouldn't stand up to peer review.

-Dave

Yes - because it would not be an independent test it would mean nothing to most of these folks who "discount" the studies that have already been done (and, besides, one "study" is hardly ever authorative and where is the K-lab going to get enough elite cyclists, etc. etc.), and it would cost a bundle. I have done the work and I know pretty much what it will show, hence my claims. Anyhow, the work is being done now independently, although we will be offering some financial support to the 6 month study when someone approached us, to pay for the testing, since such a study would probably never be one on its own and we think it has the potential to include the right athletes so we can know the true potential in the already very good.

The value of these for everyone should not be what a study shows, but what they do for them, so we offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. What is more powerful to you, what some lab somewhere says they do for others or what your own experience says they do for you? If I were in your position that would be worth more to me than any study.

And, I didn't say physicians cannot be scientists. I actually think I am a pretty good one. I put that signature there because I was told that by someone in the Liar liar thread when he was trying to discount a point I was making. I think it is funny and says a lot about the quality of the arguments (attack the person, not the idea) made by that particular person who consides himself a scientist.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 9:29

Post #41 of 544 Views: 18942

Mr. Alvaro.

Just one question?

Why didn't you do the ride with Joaquin, then you could really have shown him up (or, at least, the calibration of his PT). I mean, it was put out here that he was intending to do it and when. When Kendall said he was going to be in the area and would like to see it I put them together and Joaquin adjusted the day so he could be there. Since you live in the area it seems to me that this would have been relatively easy for you to do and I am sure Joaquin would have tried to accomodate you also.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 9:39

Post #42 of 544 Views: 18923

I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied.

"The reasons for my power being 358 Watts even though my time was almost 1 minute slower are very simple:

1) I rode up the hill with my training bike which is almost 3 kilos heavier than my Colnago carbon fibre racing bike
2) I am myself 3 kilod heavier than in th middle of my racing season
3) When I did my PB I did not record my wattage value since I was not using my powertap wheels. I did Navacerrada on May 6th, 2006 above 330 Watts. And I did my PB at La Morciera in September 2006, and I deducted my power was above 350 Watts
4) It was in February 2007 when I did the Terminillo climb (in Italy) at 377 Watts. And Then I did my VO2 max test before hurting my back
5) In august I did the 100 mile race with 4 1st cat hill climbs,
6) Now, as I told you I did yesterday La Morcuera at 358 Watts, with 6 kilos more than last year, more or less the same power, but one minute behind.

So my guess is that I will be soon close to 375 watts. And probably when tha racing season starts I will be able to peak somewhere close to 390 Watts"

He then came back with this addendum.

"one more piece of information. I read the ST forum, and there is something wrong in the information Kendall wrote there. My time up La Morcuera was yesterday 28' 38" (58" worst than my PB), not 31 minutes, as Kendall refers."

Hope this helps. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 10:08

Post #43 of 544 Views: 18894

A study like that would cost much more than you think. Also, think about what it would take to train 40 athletes on powercranks. How many pairs of powercranks would you need to pull that off (40?). Let's say you had 10 sets of PCs. You would need 4 training sessions, 3 days per week to train all 40. But...if you had a control group (and you should), you would need to train them also. Do you have a room big enough or do you now ned 8 training sessions? How would you control training dose between groups? Computrainers? Now you need 10 computrainers. More if you want to train the PC and control group at the same time. Then you have to pay labor $$ for researchers. Frank doesn't make that much money on PCs.

Mike

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 10:15

Post #44 of 544 Views: 18886

In Reply To:

Mr. Alvaro.

Just one question?

Why didn't you do the ride with Joaquin, then you could really have shown him up (or, at least, the calibration of his PT). I mean, it was put out here that he was intending to do it and when. When Kendall said he was going to be in the area and would like to see it I put them together and Joaquin adjusted the day so he could be there. Since you live in the area it seems to me that this would have been relatively easy for you to do and I am sure Joaquin would have tried to accomodate you also.

for two reasons:

I don't spend enough time at slowtwitch, most threads are 3 pages behind when I open the site, so I had no idea joaquin was going to climb Morcuera.

My coach dictates my training, not this forum.

I'm not trying to get into another endless discussion, I as just pointing out a fact, that at 65kg, with a 9kg bike I've climbed that hill in 29m16, with 309w so the OP data was inconsistent.

If as you say joaquin climbed in sub 29minutes , that's a different thing, if he post his exact weight everyone can just plug the data into analyticcycling.com,

9,2km
6,9% inclination
altitude of the summit is close to 1800m (not 100% sure about that)

if anyone wants to check this data and is fluent in Spanish you can search for it at www.altimetrias.net, its called Morcuera, South side, starting point miraflores

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 10:21

Post #45 of 544 Views: 18879

hi Tom,

I'm pretty sure they are talking about the south side, which is 6,9% for 9,2 km. the other side isn't 8% either

IIRC the 8% figure comes from joaquin riding the south side during an organised race, with the start line about 1km further forward from where it's usually measured (the first part is almost flat)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 10:41

Post #46 of 544 Views: 18856

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

umm, so you say that the data from rides on completely different days with proberly different tyre pressures if not different tyres, different weather, different fatigue levels etc etc etc dosnt add up, i would be more surprised if it did!

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic

Explain to me how fatigue has a measurable impact on power:speed? Power is power. That's why we train with it. And we are talking about a hillclimb, which is MUCH less variable than a road TT. Road TT's wind and traffic make a huge difference.

Using times to track fitness improvement is clearly inferior to wattage, but using times/wattages DOES indeed provide a "sanity check," which in this case does not add up.

fatigue would effect HR which is why that day for example it seemed low/high

Its a 30min hill climb, so theres more time for varables to have an effect than there would be in a flat 20min TT. If for example something like tyres is costing me say 2seconds every 5minutes then im gonna loose 8secs, its gonna cost him 12secs.

im not getting into the PC makes you faster or not argument just pointing out problems with compairing road rides.

What i will say is that if they teach someone to pedal better/smoother etc then that person will go faster with the same effort but by how much depends on how bad they where to start with, I cant see it making anything worse so got to be worth i try

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 10:45

Post #47 of 544 Views: 18852

Alvaro,

Why don't you join us the next time I'm in town? I'll be back in December, though the weather conditions then may not allow a climb up La Morcuera. You can PM me your email address, or simply email me: fredericksk A_T_ (split up to avoid spammers) comcast dot net. I'll email you and we can all meet up. Then I can suffer and watch two of you ride away from me. :-)

Yes, we did the climb from the south side (through Miraflores, starting in Soto Del Real). You can find the climb on Google maps and show elevation, but the peak's not marked and I don't know how accurate it is.

The rest of this stuff cracks me up; "heavy tri-dork"? True, but you can still bite me, Murphy's Law. :-) I also like the Powertap calibration suggestions. Here, I've never met you before, but I'll just whip out my Powermeter Inspector Technical Slowtwitch (PITS) manual, hang this small, weight calibrated monkey from your crankset, and have him stomp up and down (he's trained to do that when I say "Venga!").

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 13:09

Post #48 of 544 Views: 18780

In Reply To:

Alvaro,

Why don't you join us the next time I'm in town? I'll be back in December, though the weather conditions then may not allow a climb up La Morcuera. You can PM me your email address, or simply email me: fredericksk A_T_ (split up to avoid spammers) comcast dot net. I'll email you and we can all meet up. Then I can suffer and watch two of you ride away from me. :-)

Yes, we did the climb from the south side (through Miraflores, starting in Soto Del Real). You can find the climb on Google maps and show elevation, but the peak's not marked and I don't know how accurate it is.

The rest of this stuff cracks me up; "heavy tri-dork"? True, but you can still bite me, Murphy's Law. :-) I also like the Powertap calibration suggestions. Here, I've never met you before, but I'll just whip out my Powermeter Inspector Technical Slowtwitch (PITS) manual, hang this small, weight calibrated monkey from your crankset, and have him stomp up and down (he's trained to do that when I say "Venga!").

Hmm...since you confirmed the side climbed and using the info that alvaro gave on the grade and the distance, and also using the info from Frank about his weight (i.e. 65kg body weight and I estimated ~11 kg for his bike and kit) I plugged it into here with an assumed air density of 1.1 and Cd of 0.6 (for a total CdA of 0.3, which is reasonable for a smaller guy like him on a road bike), and I get:

Tada!

321W

Hmmm...where have I seen that number before....

Based on that, yeah, I don't think it would have been to unreasonable to ask him if he ever checked the torque values on his PT hub. If he's recording 358W, or ~37W higher than physics would account for, it's likely his PT reads high.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 27, 07 13:17

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 13:12

Post #49 of 544 Views: 18776

In Reply To:

I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied...

Those are all valid reasons for being slower. And did you ask him for the power file itself?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 13:18

Post #50 of 544 Views: 18766

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied...

Those are all valid reasons for being slower. And did you ask him for the power file itself?

He probably didn't download it...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 13:48

Post #51 of 544 Views: 14440

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I have heard from Joaquin. I asked him if there was and explanation as to why he averaged more power but his time was slower. Here is what he replied...

Those are all valid reasons for being slower. And did you ask him for the power file itself?

He probably didn't download it...

Classic! : )

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 14:42

Post #52 of 544 Views: 14412

Sorry to interrupt, but this looks very interesting.

My data is the following:

My Current Weight: 70.2 Kg
Bike weight (with PCs and PT powermeter): 10,2 Kg
Weight of other equipment (clothes, shoes, helmet, waterbottle, spare tub, punt) 1,4 Kg aprox
Grade of La Morcuera (taking out the first 870 meters which are almost flat): 7.8%
Distance covered: 8.870 m.
Time: 28 min 38 sec.

What is the power for this ride? Where do you calculate this? I am very interested in having a programme that calculates power from this data.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 14:59

Post #53 of 544 Views: 14399

http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Putting in your total weight as 83kg, this gives a time of 29:09 for the climb (8800m @ 7.8% grade), using the stock CdA. So pretty much exactly what you rode.

The big difference is that your weight is 70kg, as opposed to 62kg, or even 64kg, which is what had been presented here. 5.11w/kg is vastly different from 5.77w/kg (same power if you weighed 62kg). At a weight of 70kg, your power numbers make a lot of sense.

From the first post by KendallF "...at a body weight of 62k."

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Oct 27, 07 15:01

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:04

Post #54 of 544 Views: 14390

In Reply To:

http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Putting in your total weight as 83kg, this gives a time of 29:09 for the climb (8800m @ 7.8% grade), using the stock CdA. So pretty much exactly what you rode.

The big difference is that your weight is 70kg, as opposed to 62kg, or even 64kg, which is what had been presented here. 5.11w/kg is vastly different from 5.77w/kg (same power if you weighed 62kg). At a weight of 70kg, your power numbers make a lot of sense.

From the first post by KendallF "...at a body weight of 62k."

I didn't weigh him either. ;-)

Who knew all of the equipment I needed to bring along on this trip...now where'd the damn monkey get off to...

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:05

Post #55 of 544 Views: 14387

It wasn't your fault. 62 or 64 kg (one of the two) was the weight that Frank presented way back in the Liar, Liar thread. So I'm sure that's where you got that number from...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:12

Post #56 of 544 Views: 14382

Thanks you much. The web page looks really interesting.

My current wight is above 70 kilos (over here we are in the middle of the off season). By springtime, when the reces start, I reach something around 66-67 kilos.

My recing bike is a Colnago Extreme power, with Full carbon wheels, and campagnolo Record grouppo. It weights 6.8 kilos sharp.

So accorthing to that page I should be able to do something like 26'50" by springtime. That's great! And if my doctor is right, when I peak in the middle of the racing season I am supposed to do something close to 25 minutes! Well at least I'll try!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:19

Post #57 of 544 Views: 14377

Interestingly enough, plug in my total weight (me + bike) of 94 kg, estimate my power at 285 watts, and I come up with just shy of 41 minutes. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm playing with cycling geek calculators and I'm riding in the morning. At least the time changes over here and I get an extra hour's sleep.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:22

Post #58 of 544 Views: 14376

In Reply To:

It wasn't your fault. 62 or 64 kg (one of the two) was the weight that Frank presented way back in the Liar, Liar thread. So I'm sure that's where you got that number from...

Well...something doesn't compute anyway with the % grades and distances between what he's saying and what Alvaro posted. If I add on the 870m he says are basically flat, that ends up with a distance of 9.74 km (not 9.2 km like in Alvaro's post) and a grade of 7.1% (not 6.9%). Now do you guys see why an altitude sensor in a power meter is so valuable? ;-)

Oh yeah...speaking of powermeters, where is that power file???

A couple of other things don't make sense. Does that Cannondale really weigh 22.4 lbs? I've got an old steel Bianchi (with steel fork) that weighs that much.

(BTW, 67kg matches what you get from his VO2max values taken from the Pez article...I was using the 62kg number as well...)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:23

Post #59 of 544 Views: 14374

In Reply To:

Interestingly enough, plug in my total weight (me + bike) of 94 kg, estimate my power at 285 watts, and I come up with just shy of 41 minutes. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm playing with cycling geek calculators and I'm riding in the morning. At least the time changes over here and I get an extra hour's sleep.

Using what distance and what grade?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:26

Post #60 of 544 Views: 14372

In Reply To:

Sorry to interrupt, but this looks very interesting.

My data is the following:

My Current Weight: 70.2 Kg
Bike weight (with PCs and PT powermeter): 10,2 Kg
Weight of other equipment (clothes, shoes, helmet, waterbottle, spare tub, punt) 1,4 Kg aprox
Grade of La Morcuera (taking out the first 870 meters which are almost flat): 7.8%
Distance covered: 8.870 m.
Time: 28 min 38 sec.

What is the power for this ride? Where do you calculate this? I am very interested in having a programme that calculates power from this data.

Quick question...have you ever tested the torque output of your PT hub? As described here:

http://midweekclub.ca/powerFAQ.htm#Q23

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:35

Post #61 of 544 Views: 14368

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Interestingly enough, plug in my total weight (me + bike) of 94 kg, estimate my power at 285 watts, and I come up with just shy of 41 minutes. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm playing with cycling geek calculators and I'm riding in the morning. At least the time changes over here and I get an extra hour's sleep.

Using what distance and what grade?

Tom, do you have a life? I'm picturing you sitting in a cubicle somewhere, papers meticulously stacked parallel to the desk's edge, mumbling about your stapler like the guy in "Office Space"...

I was using 8.87km and 7.8%, gave myself an effective frontal area of .6 (I'm not a small guy).

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 15:48

Post #62 of 544 Views: 14361

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Interestingly enough, plug in my total weight (me + bike) of 94 kg, estimate my power at 285 watts, and I come up with just shy of 41 minutes. It's 12:15 AM here and I'm playing with cycling geek calculators and I'm riding in the morning. At least the time changes over here and I get an extra hour's sleep.

Using what distance and what grade?

Tom, do you have a life? I'm picturing you sitting in a cubicle somewhere, papers meticulously stacked parallel to the desk's edge, mumbling about your stapler like the guy in "Office Space"...

I was using 8.87km and 7.8%, gave myself an effective frontal area of .6 (I'm not a small guy).

Aha! So YOU took my red swingline!!!

Seriously, as I sit here at home on a gloomy Saturday sipping my home made latte and contemplating what design to carve into my Halloween pumpkin, I was just wondering what values you used so that it's all clear what we're talking about.

IMO, half of the problem in these types of discussions is that people aren't accurate and/or specific enough in what they write.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 17:30

Post #63 of 544 Views: 14322

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

It wasn't your fault. 62 or 64 kg (one of the two) was the weight that Frank presented way back in the Liar, Liar thread. So I'm sure that's where you got that number from...

Well...something doesn't compute anyway with the % grades and distances between what he's saying and what Alvaro posted. If I add on the 870m he says are basically flat, that ends up with a distance of 9.74 km (not 9.2 km like in Alvaro's post) and a grade of 7.1% (not 6.9%). Now do you guys see why an altitude sensor in a power meter is so valuable? ;-)

Oh yeah...speaking of powermeters, where is that power file???

A couple of other things don't make sense. Does that Cannondale really weigh 22.4 lbs? I've got an old steel Bianchi (with steel fork) that weighs that much.

(BTW, 67kg matches what you get from his VO2max values taken from the Pez article...I was using the 62kg number as well...)

Yeah, but who knows where the climb starts. I find that people often take different times for a climb because they start at different places. Perhaps Joaquin time for the climb is just the climb part. I dunno.

A Cannondale with PT hub, two full bottles, and spares (not sure if he counted spares or not in that weight) could weigh 22lbs easily. Though maybe there is generous rounding! ;)

Anyway, at least things are starting to become more pedestrian in terms of w/kg...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 17:46

Post #64 of 544 Views: 14316

In Reply To:

Now do you guys see why an altitude sensor in a power meter is so valuable? ;-)

Oh yeah...speaking of powermeters, where is that power file???

If you had the power file you could calculate the elevation gain.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Oct 27, 07 18:04

Post #65 of 544 Views: 14306

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Now do you guys see why an altitude sensor in a power meter is so valuable? ;-)

Oh yeah...speaking of powermeters, where is that power file???

If you had the power file you could calculate the elevation gain.

True dat ;-)

Aye...but there's the rub. That would require the file, now wouldn't it?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 1:12

Post #66 of 544 Views: 14251

Sorry joaquin, but I dont get it... from the brown sign at the miraflores-canecia crossing wich says 'Puerto de la Morcuera Abierto' to the sign at the summit which says the Altitude (1796m) I've consistently meassured 9,2km, which is exactly what the climb meassures in www.altimetrias.net, so if you take off 870m it doesn't meassure 8870m.

the % i've always obtained from my polar is 6,9%, and in altimetrias page it says its 6,77% the first km is 4%, I dont know if getting it out would result in 7,8% someone else will have to do the math, anyway, length, inclination or both, dont match....

I cant post the link, once in the homepage, you have to go to 'Listado por Comunidades' on the left, slightly above half screen, then go to 'Madrid' on the right, slightly below half listing, and finaly to 'Morcuera por Miraflores de la Sierra'

using that data, I have climbed in 29m16, with 75kg total weight, 309w and using 0,75 FA (I spend a lot of time out of the saddle when climbing) it comes quite close

Frontal Area 0.75 m2 Coefficient Wind Drag 0.50 dimensionless Air Density 1.056 kg/m3 Weight 75.0 kg Coefficient of Rolling 0.004 dimensionless Grade 0.069 decimal Wind Resistance 5.4 kg m/s2 Rolling Resistance 2.9 kg m/s2 Slope Force 50.7 kg m/s2 Cadence 100. rev/min Crank Length 170. mm Pedal Speed 1.78 m/s Average Pedal Force 174.0 kg m/s2 Effective Pedaling Range 70. degree Effective Pedal Force 447.5 kg m/s2 Speed 5.24 m/s Power 309.8 watts

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 1:32

Post #67 of 544 Views: 14247

[/img]

This is how the interval looks like. Please let me know if anybody is interested in getting a copy of the original file, and I will send it via email.

The summary of the data is:
Duration: 00h 28 min 38 sec
Norm Power: 362
Min Max Avg
Power 160 571 359
Cadence 55 100 78
Speed 14.3 21.7 18.6
Heart rate 121 186 182

I do not know why I read 358 Watts avg when I finished cimbing, and when I downloaded the file it shows avg power 359 Watts

BTW My training bike is a CAD4 white cannondale with PowerCranks, PowerTap wheels, Dura Ace 9 sp, and I carry 1 water bottle, 1 spare tubular (with cage), 1 pump, a Lazzer Helmet, sidi genius4 shoes, sunglasses, and I was wearing winter clothing (including globes and rain jacket), plus mobile phone, car & home keys...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 1:36

Post #68 of 544 Views: 14245

Hello Alvaro,

do you live nearby Madrid? Instead of waisting our time exchanging messages, why don't we meet and do the climb together. I am sure you will enjoy it and you will check personally where I start taking time and where I finish the climb. And if you want we can invite Antonio Alix who I am sure will be very much interested in witnessing the climb. Let me know when this fits in your training programme and I will adjust to your needs.

See you soon

Joaqu�n

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 1:51

Post #69 of 544 Views: 14237

In Reply To:

Hello Alvaro,

do you live nearby Madrid? Instead of waisting our time exchanging messages, why don't we meet and do the climb together. I am sure you will enjoy it and you will check personally where I start taking time and where I finish the climb. And if you want we can invite Antonio Alix who I am sure will be very much interested in witnessing the climb. Let me know when this fits in your training programme and I will adjust to your needs.

See you soon

Joaqu�n

I just wrote a long reply and it vanished when I posted it...

that would be cool, I'm not trying to say you are lying, just to make sense of the numbers posted, maybe you are using really bad tires...

I'll talk to my coach and to Antonio, lets hope the weather holds for a while

Last edited by: alvaro: Oct 28, 07 1:58

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 2:50

Post #70 of 544 Views: 14223

Great! Please email me when you are ready

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 3:49

Post #71 of 544 Views: 14209

This is excellent....a good old fashioned ST Hillclimb smackdown...Madrid Edition!!! Throw in Powercranks and Powertaps and you have everything that is important or unimportant on ST :-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 4:56

Post #72 of 544 Views: 14202

Oh, I've helped write about 11 grant applications over the last 4 months, so I've got a reasonably good idea of how expensive it would be. Mostly, I just wanted to see how Frank would respond.

In all honesty, I'd like to see ANY independent data where the data analysis was performed by a- someone without an agenda (but to be safe let's say the researcher doesn't know who is in the PC/non-PC group), b- someone who wasn't a subject in the trial themselves. I've been training for a short time for triathlon, but a long time for track and field, and I think very few people are good at identifying which aspects of their training cause fitness gains. Which is why I like data...

-Dave

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 7:37

Post #73 of 544 Views: 14169

Yes, independent testing and some research data would be nice but who is going to pay for it? I can see a decent study costing $100K easily. I just don't see anybody having an interest in funding that kind of study. Frank is not making enough money on powercranks to shell out that kind of dough and there is no other group with that much of an interest in getting that data.

This is not a problem that is unique to powercranks though. Lots of products out there that have not been validated with research. How about Spinscan (computrainer)? Actually, validating that one would not cost too much money....

Mike

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 7:52

Post #74 of 544 Views: 14161

In Reply To:

the % i've always obtained from my polar is 6,9%, and in altimetrias page it says its 6,77% the first km is 4%, I dont know if getting it out would result in 7,8% someone else will have to do the math, anyway, length, inclination or both, dont match....

Using your 6.9% number for 9.2 kms, if the first km @ 4% is removed, that would make the rest of the climb an average of 7.3%. Using the altimetrias numbers of 6.77% for 9.2 km, leaving out the first km would result in an average grade of 7.1% for the remainder.

You're right...something doesn't match up.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ace1317] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 8:58

Post #75 of 544 Views: 14118

In Reply To:

Mostly, I just wanted to see how Frank would respond.

-Dave

So, how did I do?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Oct 28, 07 9:26

Post #76 of 544 Views: 15034

In Reply To:

Please let me know if anybody is interested in getting a copy of the original file, and I will send it via email.

Joaquin:

I'm interested. I'll PM you with my e-mail. Thanks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 11:58

Post #77 of 544 Views: 14944

Would any of you that got the Power file from Joaquin care to post your assessment of it? Joaquin has yet to forward the data to me so I can't post the graphs for everyone to see. The fact that everyone is so silent, I suppose, means the files support what he said? Probably the reason this thread came to a sudden stop.

And, how does one calculate elevation gain from a power file?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 12:04

Post #78 of 544 Views: 14938

"The fact that everyone is so silent, I suppose, means the files support what he said? Probably the reason this thread came to a sudden stop"

Could be. Or maybe people haven't gotten the file? Or maybe the others realize you won't listen to them anyway?

"And, how does one calculate elevation gain from a power file"

An altimeter?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 12:32

Post #79 of 544 Views: 14909

In Reply To:

"And, how does one calculate elevation gain from a power file"

An altimeter?

Do Power Tap files have altimeter information?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 12:36

Post #80 of 544 Views: 14903

No idea, that's why I was asking.

If someone had a GPS and their power file, they could get the elevation from the GPS. Not sure how to get those two to overlap in one graph though.

That's one of the cool things about the Quark system, it has GPS and altitude. Not that I can afford it...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:08

Post #81 of 544 Views: 14865

In Reply To:

No idea, that's why I was asking.

If someone had a GPS and their power file, they could get the elevation from the GPS. Not sure how to get those two to overlap in one graph though.

That's one of the cool things about the Quark system, it has GPS and altitude. Not that I can afford it...

It was Rcheung who posted if you had the power file one could calculate the altitude data. Love to hear how.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:11

Post #82 of 544 Views: 14856

In Reply To:

Would any of you that got the Power file from Joaquin care to post your assessment of it? Joaquin has yet to forward the data to me so I can't post the graphs for everyone to see. The fact that everyone is so silent, I suppose, means the files support what he said? Probably the reason this thread came to a sudden stop.

No, your supposition is incorrect--at least, as it applies to me. I've been silent because I haven't yet received the file (and, in general, it's good form not to announce your assessment of a file before you've seen it). However, I seem to recall that Joaquin travels quite a bit so perhaps he's on the road and simply hasn't had the opportunity to send it. I'm sure that once he gets a few minutes he'll send it on.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:13

Post #83 of 544 Views: 14850

In Reply To:

Would any of you that got the Power file from Joaquin care to post your assessment of it? Joaquin has yet to forward the data to me so I can't post the graphs for everyone to see. The fact that everyone is so silent, I suppose, means the files support what he said? Probably the reason this thread came to a sudden stop.

And, how does one calculate elevation gain from a power file?

Ummm...my guess for why it's come to a sudden stop is that no power file has been produced. I sent Joaquin a request both by PM and email and haven't heard a peep. I also know that as of this morning, Mr. Chung hasn't gotten one either. Obviously, the file exists since he posted a plot from downloading it. Now, I understand that Joaquin travels on business at times, so we should probably cut him just a little slack...

As for you second question, that's easy. Mr. Chung figured that out years ago:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/...meter/altimeter.html

It's also the basis (i.e. "virtual elevation") for his clever method of field testing CdA:

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/...cda/indirect-cda.pdf

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:14

Post #84 of 544 Views: 14848

In Reply To:

It was [RChung] who posted if you had the power file one could calculate the altitude data. Love to hear how.

How to turn an expensive power meter into a cheap altimeter.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:15

Post #85 of 544 Views: 14846

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Would any of you that got the Power file from Joaquin care to post your assessment of it? Joaquin has yet to forward the data to me so I can't post the graphs for everyone to see. The fact that everyone is so silent, I suppose, means the files support what he said? Probably the reason this thread came to a sudden stop.

No, your supposition is incorrect--at least, as it applies to me. I've been silent because I haven't yet received the file (and, in general, it's good form not to announce your assessment of a file before you've seen it). However, I seem to recall that Joaquin travels quite a bit so perhaps he's on the road and simply hasn't had the opportunity to send it. I'm sure that once he gets a few minutes he'll send it on.

I agree it is poor form. I suspect your assessment is correct as he is usually pretty good about sending things when he can.

Can you comment on how one calculates altitude from a power file?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:18

Post #86 of 544 Views: 14839

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

It was [RChung] who posted if you had the power file one could calculate the altitude data. Love to hear how.

How to turn an expensive power meter into a cheap altimeter.

Interesting. I see you make certain assumptions which might make the absolute number off a bit if the assumptions are wrong but the fact you think you can predict profile by looking at the power is interesting. It would be interesting to see how close you come to the La Mocuera profile from the power file once you get it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Oct 29, 07 13:18

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:37

Post #87 of 544 Views: 14814

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

It was [RChung] who posted if you had the power file one could calculate the altitude data. Love to hear how.

How to turn an expensive power meter into a cheap altimeter.

Interesting. I see you make certain assumptions which might make the absolute number off a bit if the assumptions are wrong but the fact you think you can predict profile by looking at the power is interesting. It would be interesting to see how close you come to the La Mocuera profile from the power file once you get it.

Yep...it'll be interesting how close it comes to this:

BTW, using the masses that Joaquin supplied, if his time is taken from the start of the 2nd km, I calculate that he actually was putting out somewhere in the range of 310-320W for the ~7% average grade.

I still would like to know if he's ever tested the static torque values from his PT hub...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 13:46

Post #88 of 544 Views: 14802

On a side note, I wish I had something like that to climb around Chicago. I can't fully get a grip on how rough a climb like that might be.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 14:27

Post #89 of 544 Views: 14773

In Reply To:

On a side note, I wish I had something like that to climb around Chicago. I can't fully get a grip on how rough a climb like that might be.

It's just like spending 30 minutes groveling into a stiff headwind :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 29, 07 14:48

Post #90 of 544 Views: 14762

I don't understand why he posted the MMPS for the power profile.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 7:24

Post #91 of 544 Views: 14664

Crap, I do that daily on my commute home on the lake. It's not fun.

Either way, anyone received the power file yet? I'm curious on what the smarter-than-I guys have to say about it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 7:31

Post #92 of 544 Views: 14659

In Reply To:

Crap, I do that daily on my commute home on the lake. It's not fun.

Either way, anyone received the power file yet? I'm curious on what the smarter-than-I guys have to say about it.

I received a PM from Joaquin this morning stating that he was in Athens on business and would return to Madrid this afternoon. He would send the file when he returned.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 12:18

Post #93 of 544 Views: 14604

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

On a side note, I wish I had something like that to climb around Chicago. I can't fully get a grip on how rough a climb like that might be.

It's just like spending 30 minutes groveling into a stiff headwind :-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 15:02

Post #94 of 544 Views: 14547

In Reply To:

I'm curious on what the smarter-than-I guys have to say about it.

Me too.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 15:43

Post #95 of 544 Views: 14518

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I'm curious on what the smarter-than-I guys have to say about it.

Me too.

Umm...Robert...I'd wager there ain't too many of them 'round...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Oct 31, 07 16:18

Post #96 of 544 Views: 14494

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I'm curious on what the smarter-than-I guys have to say about it.

Me too.

Umm...Robert...I'd wager there ain't too many of them 'round...

Just Frank. ;)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 7:13

Post #97 of 544 Views: 14442

Did ya get the file?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 7:31

Post #98 of 544 Views: 14426

In Reply To:

Did ya get the file?

Not yet...In the words of Yoda: "You must have patience." :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 7:57

Post #99 of 544 Views: 14417

Wasn't it, "patience, you must have"?

Regardless, I am sorely lacking.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 10:34

Post #100 of 544 Views: 14373

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

been riding with SRM's for over 2years now and on my local 16km TT course which i ride proberly 2+ times a week ive never managed the same time, for the same power, sometimes over 30secs different. You CAN NOT measure fitness improvments on the open road by compairing times set over a course with what power you did them at.

as an example ive done 19.25min over the course at 455watts and then a few weeks later 20.15 at 460watts, only difference was weather and traffic

Explain to me how fatigue has a measurable impact on power:speed? Power is power. That's why we train with it. And we are talking about a hillclimb, which is MUCH less variable than a road TT. Road TT's wind and traffic make a huge difference.

Using times to track fitness improvement is clearly inferior to wattage, but using times/wattages DOES indeed provide a "sanity check," which in this case does not add up.

Just a comment on the power vs speed thing. In my field aero testing I initially was riding on a longer section of road that has some car traffic. I was riding exactly 20mph and was getting variability of about +/-5W or so on a measured ~175W, or close to +/-3% total value. When I switched to a different road with no car traffic that was much more sheltered from the wind, I ended up with variability around +/-1 to 1.5W. Riding out on an open road with cars is going to have a pretty substantial variability to it.

Either way, using time/watts does provide a sanity check, but it isn't accurate enough to judge whether someone's PT is out of calibration. Another SIGNIFICANT assumption is that the power is doled out in a similar manner. Here's a quick experiment you can do with analytic cycling to show why this is important:

10% grade at 350W = 4.4m/s
10% grade at 300W = 3.81m/s
5% grade at 350W = 7.31m/s
5% grade at 300W = 6.5m/s

If you ride 1km at 10% and 1km at 5% grades, choose to ride one at 350W and the other at 300W...you get a combined climb of:
10% at 350W = 227.3s, 5% at 300W = 153.8s, total time 381.1sec, avg power 329.8W
10% at 300W = 262.5s, 5% at 350W = 136.8s, total time 399.3sec, avg power 317.1W
Why is this important you might ask? Because the time/power ratio is different! In the first case it is 1.155s/avgW, in the second case it is 1.26s/avgW. Based on Joaquin's posted pic he has enough variability that it could matter. Not by the 10% in the above simple case, but certainly 30 secs to a minute difference.

On a side note....holy @#%!#$%@#$ hell bikedoc! 460W for 20 minutes! Ouch! That puts my measly 330W to serious shame. I hope you weigh 250lb or I'm going to be really jealous! Smile

Smile

Mad

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 14:13

Post #101 of 544 Views: 13935

Being fairly new to these boards, I find this obsession with powercranks to be pretty funny.

I mean, these things have been around long enough that if they really had any positive effect whatsoever, every roadie and their brother would be using a set by now.

But hey, carry on. =)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Laflore] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 15:38

Post #102 of 544 Views: 13904

Its more for the running improvements. That is why some triathletes like them. I find they are also good for a recovery ride if your legs are pretty cooked from the previous day, as you really don't use your quads as much as conventional cranks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Laflore] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 15:55

Post #103 of 544 Views: 13889

"I mean, these things have been around long enough that if they really had any positive effect whatsoever, every roadie and their brother would be using a set by now"

You're not alone. Not to mention the fact that the creator can't seem to pin down a study better than n=1 showing they work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 15:56

Post #104 of 544 Views: 13888

"Its more for the running improvements"

I've been misled, I thought the running improvements were more a positive side effect that Frank claims

"I find they are also good for a recovery ride if your legs are pretty cooked from the previous day, as you really don't use your quads as much as conventional cranks"

That's news! I know PC's make you raise the pedal on your own, but I didn't realize you didn't have to push down!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 17:32

Post #105 of 544 Views: 13854

In Reply To:

"I mean, these things have been around long enough that if they really had any positive effect whatsoever, every roadie and their brother would be using a set by now"

You're not alone. Not to mention the fact that the creator can't seem to pin down a study better than n=1 showing they work.

You guys are a real kick. Not only can I pin down such a study, I have - but if you keep saying I haven't some will actually believe it. Say it enough and it becomes true in the minds of many. You should consider politics. But, that being said, most of the products frequently touted here have essentially zero independent studies to back up their claims. Even something that has been around as long as "weight lifting" remains totally controversial, you either believe or you don't. Up til now the only studies that have been done n PowerCranks show that they work but not enough have been done to convince everyone. As of yet, no study has been done on PowerCranks that shows zero benefit. Until more studies are done on PowerCranks I am afraid they will continue to be somewhat similar, in that you either believe in them or you don't or you are undecided. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 1, 07 17:59

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

JohninMadisonWI

Nov 1, 07 17:39

Post #106 of 544 Views: 13845

Who is Joaquin?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 17:43

Post #107 of 544 Views: 13843

In Reply To:

"Its more for the running improvements"

I've been misled, I thought the running improvements were more a positive side effect that Frank claims

You haven't been misled, you just haven't read very closely what I have written. We thought that when it first was reported to us, that the running improvement was a side effect. We now think it is a primary benefit and we market these to non-cyclists for their running benefits and injury reduction benefits.

PowerCranks and running explanation

We have pure runners using them, professional football teams, baseball teams, etc. using them for this very purpose.

In Reply To:

"I find they are also good for a recovery ride if your legs are pretty cooked from the previous day, as you really don't use your quads as much as conventional cranks"

That's news! I know PC's make you raise the pedal on your own, but I didn't realize you didn't have to push down!

Again, you misread or misconstrue (probably deliberately) what is posted. Not pushing down as much is not the same as not pushing down at all. Many find they have been pushing too hard and that they can become better balanced, with more power and endurance, when they train themselves to pedal in the PC fashion. Others are able to continue to push down just as hard as they did before. PC's do not dictate any specific manner of "pushing", they only dictate a minimum amount of work on the backstroke. The user can develop the style (pushing hard or not) that is best for them.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 18:15

Post #108 of 544 Views: 13827

"You guys are a real kick. Not only can I pin down such a study, I have - but if you keep saying I haven't some will actually believe it. Say it enough and it becomes true in the minds of many."

Calm down Frank, I am joking. If you'll read my posts, I've actually been quite highly spirited with water boy lately. I'm done arguing and I'm just looking for results on PC's beyond one of your loyal devotees.

"You should consider politics"

I am.

"But, that being said, most of the products frequently touted here have essentially zero independent studies to back up their claims"

THe difference being that I don't feel like the founders of those products bombard an online forum with advertising.

"Even something that has been around as long as "weight lifting" remains totally controversial, you either believe or you don't."

Why should I have to "believe" in something when there is science to prove it one way or another?

"Up til now the only studies that have been done n PowerCranks show that they work but not enough have been done to convince everyone"

Correct. I'm not convinced. But I will admit that I think I am much more open minded than I used to be...even if I don't come across that way.

"As of yet, no study has been done on PowerCranks that shows zero benefit"

Let's be honest, I don't think it'd be tough to make a study show more than zero benefit. I'm looking for something that shows PC's are worth $1000+ to me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 18:20

Post #109 of 544 Views: 13824

"You haven't been misled, you just haven't read very closely what I have written"

Dear God Frank, with the novels you write, who does?! ;-)

"We thought that when it first was reported to us, that the running improvement was a side effect."

So I wasn't SO far off...

"Again, you misread or misconstrue (probably deliberately) what is posted. Not pushing down as much is not the same as not pushing down at all"

Frank, calm. I am joking. I need to get more deliberate with the pink font.

"they only dictate a minimum amount of work on the backstroke"

40% doesn't seem SO minimum :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 18:32

Post #110 of 544 Views: 13814

With all of this said, has anyone seen Joaquin's PT file yet?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 20:37

Post #111 of 544 Views: 13781

In Reply To:

Let's be honest, I don't think it'd be tough to make a study show more than zero benefit. I'm looking for something that shows PC's are worth $1000+ to me.

That is not what you said. Here is what I was responding to. "Not to mention the fact that the creator can't seem to pin down a study better than n=1 showing they work." Such comments make me look like a liar. I don't take to them kindly.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 1, 07 21:16

Post #112 of 544 Views: 13767

Perhaps you can replace the fluff in your signature file with direct links to such studies and counter the 'big lie' phenom.

BTW - didn't see you guys at PCB today. Where you hidden in the back?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 07 5:15

Post #113 of 544 Views: 13724

"That is not what you said. Here is what I was responding to. "Not to mention the fact that the creator can't seem to pin down a study better than n=1 showing they work." Such comments make me look like a liar. I don't take to them kindly."

Fine, my apologies. Can I see the study you are referring to that show PC's work that is more than n=1?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 2, 07 6:33

Post #114 of 544 Views: 13704

In Reply To:

"That is not what you said. Here is what I was responding to. "Not to mention the fact that the creator can't seem to pin down a study better than n=1 showing they work." Such comments make me look like a liar. I don't take to them kindly."

Fine, my apologies. Can I see the study you are referring to that show PC's work that is more than n=1?

The Luttrell study. or a link to several studies that relate to PC's either directly or indirectly

http://www.powercranks.com/...ce-lateststudies.htm

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 8:11

Post #115 of 544 Views: 13635

In Reply To:

The Luttrell study. or a link to several studies that relate to PC's either directly or indirectly

http://www.powercranks.com/...ce-lateststudies.htm

Has the result of the Luttrell study ever been replicated? Not only were the results surprising, the a priori hypothesis that was tested that lead to those results was surprising. And, has the Dixon study yet been published? I wondered because there was no control group.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 9:03

Post #116 of 544 Views: 13610

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The Luttrell study. or a link to several studies that relate to PC's either directly or indirectly

http://www.powercranks.com/...ce-lateststudies.htm

Has the result of the Luttrell study ever been replicated? Not only were the results surprising, the a priori hypothesis that was tested that lead to those results was surprising. And, has the Dixon study yet been published? I wondered because there was no control group.

Well, the Luttrell study can't be replicated until someone does the work. I have been told that there are a couple of studies that are in the final throws of being published, of which all I know is the results are supposedly positive, but I do not know the protocols as to whether they replicate the Luttrell or Dixon studies or do something else. We will all have to wait.

The only thing I found surprising about these results were the degree of improvement seen in this relatively short period of time. An engineering analysis would predict such results but prior experiments trying to document pedaling pattern makes a difference have failed to show such a change. Presuming the follow-up studies confirm the Luttrell and Dixon results in general I think what can be taken from this are two things. 1. Asking someone to change pedaling style during a study and measuring the effect is not the same as actually training someone to pedal in a new style and then measuring the effect. And, 2. It is not easy to train someone to pedal in a new style from what they are used to.

If the Luttrell study is confirmed, any study in the future or any study in the past that tries to look at what the best pedaling style is and which does not take into consideration the above two elements should be ignored as pretty much useless.

As far as I know the full Dixon study has never been "published" beyond the abstract and presentation at the CSEP meeting. And, we don't know if there was a control group or not. A control was not mentioned in the abstract but they did mention the results reached statistical significance. Without the protocol or the raw data it is not possible to know exactly what was done.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:13

Post #117 of 544 Views: 13586

In Reply To:

[/quote]

The only thing I found surprising about these results were the degree of improvement seen in this relatively short period of time. An engineering analysis would predict such results [..] If the Luttrell study is confirmed, any study in the future or any study in the past that tries to look at what the best pedaling style is and which does not take into consideration the above two elements should be ignored as pretty much useless.

I was unaware of any engineering analysis prior to the Luttrell study that would have predicted a change in efficiency. In any event, since you say that such an analysis existed, it makes me wonder why Luttrell and Potteiger didn't measure work efficiency or delta efficiency. And, of course, there is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner: why didn't they test power? They designed this experiment, rounded up volunteers and cranks, went into the lab, assigned controls, collected data over six weeks, and focused on fuel efficiency and ignored power output?

As far as I know the full Dixon study has never been "published" beyond the abstract and presentation at the CSEP meeting. And, we don't know if there was a control group or not. A control was not mentioned in the abstract but they did mention the results reached statistical significance. Without the protocol or the raw data it is not possible to know exactly what was done.

I would think that if, as you say, it is not possible to know exactly how the Dixon study was done, one should be cautious in promoting it as evidence, whether as support or refutation.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:27

Post #118 of 544 Views: 13582

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[/quote]

The only thing I found surprising about these results were the degree of improvement seen in this relatively short period of time. An engineering analysis would predict such results [..] If the Luttrell study is confirmed, any study in the future or any study in the past that tries to look at what the best pedaling style is and which does not take into consideration the above two elements should be ignored as pretty much useless.

I was unaware of any engineering analysis prior to the Luttrell study that would have predicted a change in efficiency. In any event, since you say that such an analysis existed, it makes me wonder why Luttrell and Potteiger didn't measure work efficiency or delta efficiency. And, of course, there is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner: why didn't they test power? They designed this experiment, rounded up volunteers and cranks, went into the lab, assigned controls, collected data over six weeks, and focused on fuel efficiency and ignored power output?

Well, I had done one, as I think had many people in the past who were trying to show that pedaling style would make a difference. What is surprising is the studies, at least in the past, did not show any effect. One then has to explain why?

Ugh, I didn't design the study. I got the impression, as the first PC study done, that it was more of a pilot study, just to show there was an effect that could be used as a basis for follow on studies. I guess they chose efficiency over power as their main end point. I would have liked it if they had done another post training max power/VO2 max test, but they didn't.

In Reply To:

As far as I know the full Dixon study has never been "published" beyond the abstract and presentation at the CSEP meeting. And, we don't know if there was a control group or not. A control was not mentioned in the abstract but they did mention the results reached statistical significance. Without the protocol or the raw data it is not possible to know exactly what was done.

I would think that if, as you say, it is not possible to know exactly how the Dixon study was done, one should be cautious in promoting it as evidence, whether as support or refutation.

Hey, I recognize the weaknesses of that study (or, at least, the write up). But, the data is the data. I simply put it forward as what has been reported, although the results do jibe with what users frequently report regarding power increases (few get their VO2 max tested) or, say, with the Joaquin testing results (who did get his VO2 max tested). Some here would like to pretend that these studies never happened because the results go against their bias.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:32

Post #119 of 544 Views: 13574

Where is that power file? It seems to be taking an awful long time getting posted/circulated...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:35

Post #120 of 544 Views: 13571

In Reply To:

Where is that power file? It seems to be taking an awful long time getting posted/circulated...

Why are you asking me? Why don't you ask that of Joaquin? Are you trying to imply something nefarious in that it is taking him more time than you would like for him to provide it to the group. At least there was a ST'er there to observe he actually did the climb and was seemingly pretty good. If Kendall wasn't there I can just imagine what this thread would be like. The Liar, liar thread all over again.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:39

Post #121 of 544 Views: 13566

The only thing I found surprising about these results were the degree of improvement seen in this relatively short period of time. An engineering analysis would predict such results but prior experiments trying to document pedaling pattern makes a difference have failed to show such a change. Presuming the follow-up studies confirm the Luttrell and Dixon results in general I think what can be taken from this are two things. 1. Asking someone to change pedaling style during a study and measuring the effect is not the same as actually training someone to pedal in a new style and then measuring the effect. And, 2. It is not easy to train someone to pedal in a new style from what they are used to.
If the Luttrell study is confirmed, any study in the future or any study in the past that tries to look at what the best pedaling style is and which does not take into consideration the above two elements should be ignored as pretty much useless.
[/reply]

Why or how would an engineering analysis predict such results.
You don't have to ask a rider to change pedaling style. The question to be answered is, does the continuous use of PC's increase power output. Let's take a normal circular pedaler and the four different areas of his pedaling circle. Starting with the 1 to 5 o'c portion, PC's cannot increase his power here as he is already accustomed to using the unweighting effect. In the 5 to 7 area, no increase here as he is already accustomed to drawing the shoe back. The 7 to 11 area, no increase possible here as he will not be pulling up any more than is necessary for the unweighting to take effect. The 11 to 1 o'c area, no increase here as he will be already accustomed to the rolling barrel shoe effect here. So there is no increase in power output and don't forget , the circular style is the weaker of the two known normal
techniques. The advantage of PC's is restricted to teaching a learner how to perfect the circular technique which is the stepping stone to Anquetil's linear style. Now there you can not only get that 40% increase but you can also explain and demonstrate in five minutes to any interested onlooker where and how that additional power is generated.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:41

Post #122 of 544 Views: 13563

Okay, I'll make it a little clearer for you. I'm saying that you seem to have put a lot more effort into hyping/marketing Joaquin's performance than you've put into backing up the marketing with evidence.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 10:54

Post #123 of 544 Views: 13556

In Reply To:

Okay, I'll make it a little clearer for you. I'm saying that you seem to have put a lot more effort into hyping/marketing Joaquin's performance than you've put into backing up the marketing with evidence.

First, I didn't start this thread. I have stated I would provide the file when it is provided to me. I can only present the evidence i have and you all have seen all that I have seen, including the test results from his doctor, which were provided in the "Liar, liar" and "stir up the flames" thread. I have yet to see this latest file so I cannot present it. Joaquin had been in contact with others here and has told them he is traveling on business and would provide the file to them when he could.

Of course, I present such data when it is made available to me as it confirms pretty much what I have been saying about the product all along. You, of course, are free to ignore it. And, I am not so sure that qualifies as hype. It is simply data. Such data is obviously not enough to overcome your bias but I can only present what I have.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 17:22

Post #124 of 544 Views: 13506

In Reply To:

I was unaware of any engineering analysis prior to the Luttrell study that would have predicted a change in efficiency.

Well, I had done one, as I think had many people in the past who were trying to show that pedaling style would make a difference.[/reply] Your engineering analysis predicted a change in gross efficiency? What was your prediction for the magnitude of the change?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 20:15

Post #125 of 544 Views: 13476

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I was unaware of any engineering analysis prior to the Luttrell study that would have predicted a change in efficiency.

Well, I had done one, as I think had many people in the past who were trying to show that pedaling style would make a difference.

Your engineering analysis predicted a change in gross efficiency? What was your prediction for the magnitude of the change?[/reply] No, my original engineering analysis only predicted a large increase in power from simply changing all the negative pedal forces to zero and keeping the positive forces the same. There were potential efficiency (and additional power) gains if one could change the direction of the applied forces but one could not predict that these would definitely occur as I could with predicting the definit elimination of the negative pedal forces with PowerCranks. Now that it is pretty clear that efficiency is also improved the easiest way to explain that is training with the cranks also change the force application pattern, even though this has not been demonstrated and it is not the only potential explanation.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 21:25

Post #126 of 544 Views: 14793

Is this the same type of engineering analysis that lead you to believe holding 50 watts for an hour would burn 1000 Calories?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 21:26

Post #127 of 544 Views: 14789

Analytic cycling spit that number out to him somehow.

(edit: I point this out because I don't want Frank to think I ONLY pick on him, I'm just looking for answers. Though yes, I do use that quote in my sig line because I think it's funny.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 3, 07 21:27

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 21:50

Post #128 of 544 Views: 14776

In Reply To:

Is this the same type of engineering analysis that lead you to believe holding 50 watts for an hour would burn 1000 Calories?

No, I put that out as the work of several others and prefaced my remarks as assuming their work was correct. I believe I gave the references where these came from. There was no independent engineering analysis involved.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 3, 07 22:26

Post #129 of 544 Views: 14763

In Reply To:

Now that it is pretty clear that efficiency is also improved

There's only one person to whom that is 'pretty clear'.....

EDIT: I have to laugh a little at that comment, because it sooo reminded me of this here--you should really give the 'conclusion/validation error' part a read......

Last edited by: roady: Nov 3, 07 22:36

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 4, 07 3:14

Post #130 of 544 Views: 14734

No, my original engineering analysis only predicted a large increase in power from simply changing all the negative pedal forces to zero and keeping the positive forces the same. There were potential efficiency (and additional power) gains if one could change the direction of the applied forces but one could not predict that these would definitely occur as I could with predicting the definit [/reply]

The objective of the circular pedaler is the attempted application of continuous tangential torque to both cranks at all times by the continuous changing of direction of force application at the four main areas 3,6,9 and 12 o'c, which is exactly what the PC's force you to do. This works in the lower cadences but when you get to a cadence of 90, your brain will have to make about 12 power application direction adjustments per second which is impossible and the best you can hope for is mentally keeping your shoe ahead of or out of the way of the idling pedal. With PC's this means towing the idling crank/pedal around under the shoe. The overall PC result is, like that of the circular pedaler, you have no negative forces but you also have no power gains in these towing areas and you end up with a weaker downstroke than that of the stomper/masher because half of your concentation has been diverted from this most important area of the pedaling circle between 1 and 5 o'c to the impossible tasks of the idling leg. Unweighting alone will not interfere with a rider's concentration on the downstroke, done correctly it can even improve it. Have you noticed that from the time car drivers begin to use their hand held phones, their is a gradual reduction in speed.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 4, 07 6:14

Post #131 of 544 Views: 14713

"Have you noticed that from the time car drivers begin to use their hand held phones, their is a gradual reduction in speed."

No. But I have noticed a gradual drift into my lane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 07 12:25

Post #132 of 544 Views: 14650

any luck with the power file yet?

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [t2k] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 07 13:40

Post #133 of 544 Views: 14631

In Reply To:

any luck with the power file yet?

Joaquin emailed me that two things have delayed it. He has been traveling and one of his daughters is in the hospital with pneumonia.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 6, 07 13:42

Post #134 of 544 Views: 14627

that's unfortunate - Best wishes to Joaquin's daughter for a speedy recovery.

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 9:41

Post #135 of 544 Views: 14567

Bump, I hope his daughter is ok. As much as I'd like to see the results of analysis on the file, his daughter is MORE than enough of an excuse to me for taking some time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 9:48

Post #136 of 544 Views: 14561

In Reply To:

Unweighting alone will not interfere with a rider's concentration on the downstroke, done correctly it can even improve it. Have you noticed that from the time car drivers begin to use their hand held phones, their is a gradual reduction in speed.

I feel bound to point out that although both cars and bicycles go faster when you push down harder on the pedals, the mechanism is slightly different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [MuffinTop] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 12:29

Post #137 of 544 Views: 14528

[reply][reply]
Unweighting alone will not interfere with a rider's concentration on the downstroke, done correctly it can even improve it. Have you noticed that from the time car drivers begin to use their hand held phones, their is a gradual reduction in speed.[/reply]
I feel bound to point out that although both cars and bicycles go faster when you push down harder on the pedals, the mechanism is slightly different.[/reply]

It could have been worse, you could have drew my attention to the incorrect spelling of "there". The mechanism may be different but the lack of concentration on the main objective is the same, resulting in reduction in pedal power for the cyclist and possible fatal results for the motorist or his victim. I did say earlier that the PC's circular style is a stepping stone to the perfect pedaling style (linear) which is a semi-circular style, the main difference or advantage being that with this technique total concentration can be given to each leg as it applies its continuous max power to the pedal from start to finish of its 180 degrees of the pedaling circle.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 15:11

Post #138 of 544 Views: 14484

So after dedicating your life to the pursuit of the perfect pedal stroke, have you actually gotten any faster? Maybe your time would've been better spent doing intervals.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [The Cricket] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 16:07

Post #139 of 544 Views: 14460

[reply]
So after dedicating your life to the pursuit of the perfect pedal stroke, have you actually gotten any faster? Maybe your time would've been better spent doing intervals. [/reply]

Having took up cycling at age 42 and read about the mysterious technique of J. Anquetil, my only objective was to discover this technique and in this I succeeded. Cycling is one of the greatest rip off sports if you were to take it seriously in time trials etc. , with riders paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for equipment to shave a few seconds off their TT time. Then you have the powermeter craze to add to this expense. Before I discovered this technique which can take minutes off your 25m TT time, I had already found that interval training on open roads had become too risky as I was hit on two occasions by cars emerging from minor side roads underestimating the speed at which I was travelling. I cycle for pleasure now. I hope to give a free demonstration of this technique next Jan if any serious pedaling researchers are interested enough to do the travelling, which would be cheaper than a set of PC's.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 16:33

Post #140 of 544 Views: 14446

In Reply To:

I hope to give a free demonstration of this technique next Jan if any serious pedaling researchers are interested enough to do the travelling, which would be cheaper than a set of PC's.

Aaah...so there's a date set to this now...well, sort of. Will you be doing the demonstration with some way of measuring the torque output, or force pedals? Perhaps some sort of muscle activation monitoring like is done with the "Wobblenaught" systems? Just curious.

I'm also curious as to why you've never seemed to be able to clearly describe this so-called mysterious technique. Is it not something that could be easily shown with just a couple of diagrams?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 17:04

Post #141 of 544 Views: 14432

Holy crap, Tom.

I can't quite decide if you're a masochist or a sadist; Either way, that has to be the single best/worst troll bait post of the entire year....

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 17:40

Post #142 of 544 Views: 14418

In Reply To:

Holy crap, Tom.

I can't quite decide if you're a masochist or a sadist; Either way, that has to be the single best/worst troll bait post of the entire year....

I'm bored.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 07 20:38

Post #143 of 544 Views: 14382

what's the saying...

those who know, do not tell
those who tell, do not know

even if "perfection" has "figured it out", i don't think he'll ever be able to describe it to one who doesn't already know experientially exactly what he's talking about. it's too obscure. how do you describe a sensation to somebody else who has never felt it? it's like a woman trying to get a man to understand what it feels like to give birth.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 5:54

Post #144 of 544 Views: 14330

In Reply To:

Holy crap, Tom.
I can't quite decide if you're a masochist or a sadist; Either way, that has to be the single best/worst troll bait post of the entire year....

No, I think that has to go to the "wetsuit orgasm" thread. But I am still curious to see this mystical power file. Of course it sorta lost it's luster when I realized I can do about 90% of what he claims to have done...and I've only been seriously training for a couple of years. Maybe I'll start a thread about how to increase by 40% in 1 year without PCs. I'm sure you've seen my thread on BTR. Wink

Wink

Mad

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [triguy42] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 7:16

Post #145 of 544 Views: 14303

"Maybe I'll start a thread about how to increase by 40% in 1 year without PCs"

please do...Learn could use that to get his IM FL time down to 9:38 next year...(he's already tapped the PCs for their 40%!)

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Sojourner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 8:48

Post #146 of 544 Views: 14283

In Reply To:

what's the saying...

those who know, do not tell
those who tell, do not know

even if "perfection" has "figured it out", i don't think he'll ever be able to describe it to one who doesn't already know experientially exactly what he's talking about. it's too obscure. how do you describe a sensation to somebody else who has never felt it? it's like a woman trying to get a man to understand what it feels like to give birth.

Yes, but it can be fun watching them try.

Anyhow, if this is going to occur anywhere that I can get to "easily" I will be there. Or, maybe he will put his explanation/demonstration on Youtube so we can all see it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Sojourner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 9:00

Post #147 of 544 Views: 14272

In Reply To:

how do you describe a sensation to somebody else who has never felt it? it's like a woman trying to get a man to understand what it feels like to give birth.

I once had an ER nurse tell me that it feels a lot like passing a kidney stone. My reply to her was that I would never ask any woman to do such a thing for me.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [triguy42] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 9:01

Post #148 of 544 Views: 14268

In Reply To:

Maybe I'll start a thread about how to increase by 40% in 1 year without PCs.

I think you should.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Sojourner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 07 13:18

Post #149 of 544 Views: 14186

even if "perfection" has "figured it out", i don't think he'll ever be able to describe it to one who doesn't already know experientially exactly what he's talking about. it's too obscure. [/reply]

You are right, that's why a demonstration is required. Remembering that the main objective is the successful combination of upper and lower body muscles turning the whole body into a power generating machine, for this to be possible power application and resistance lines have to be parallel, so simplified off the bike examples are needed. In the first one a rider will clearly see and experience for himself how to generate the leg power. The second one clearly shows the objective (which he can also experience for himself) when applying this power to the pedal. Then a simple on the bike example of what the perfected finished product looks like for comparison with the footage of Anquetil's pedaling on video is all that remains. There will be no torque measuring devices, when you see this technique the only question that arises is by how much does it improve your tt or pursuit time. It's back to the Anquetil era with pedals, toe-clips and straps, the only difference being in the handlebars and that was where Anquetil (the perfectionist) badly slipped up both from the aerodynamic and power aspects.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 4:11

Post #150 of 544 Views: 14112

[reply][reply]
Maybe I'll start a thread about how to increase by 40% in 1 year without PCs. [/reply]
I think you should.[/reply]

Yes, but it should read 1 week and unlike the PC's promised increase, this one has a sensible explanation. Take yourself a natural stomper, your power application is restricted by lack of tangential effect before 2 o'c. With the mysterious linear EXTENDED stroke, power application is as powerful and equally as tangential EVEN BEFORE 12 O'C, as it is aound 2,3 and 4 o'c with the addition of an instant boost of power at the start of the stroke from a firmly anchored resistance base.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 7:36

Post #151 of 544 Views: 14836

In Reply To:

There will be no torque measuring devices...

Why not? Wouldn't that definitively confirm or (gasp!) disprove your claims? Sounds to me like you're afraid of something...

Also, can I ask what the relation of your saddle is to the BB? Using the UCI method of measurement, what's your "saddle setback"? It's just that after trying to decode your descriptions of "toes down" pedaling and the "linear style", I keep thinking that, if taken to the extreme, your setup looks something like this:

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 11, 07 8:29

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 16:40

Post #152 of 544 Views: 14781

[reply][reply]
There will be no torque measuring devices...[/reply]
Why not? Wouldn't that definitively confirm or (gasp!) disprove your claims? Sounds to me like you're afraid of something...
Also, can I ask what the relation of your saddle is to the BB? Using the UCI method of measurement, what's your "saddle setback"? It's just that after trying to decode your descriptions of "toes down" pedaling and the "linear style", I keep thinking that, if taken to the extreme, your setup looks something like this:
[img]http://www.me.mtu.edu/news/HPV_2004-02a.jpg[/img][/reply]

Because I know exactly where I am applying the power and those who see how it's done and experience the basic techniques for themselves will also understand how and where the power is being applied. The saddle setting is 2 cm behind BB, it does not comply with the UCI rules but that's due to their ignorance on pedaling. That rule was only introduced to prevent G. Obree from ending up with a position as in your picture. The reason you and others find my descriptions so hard to understand is because ye have all failed to use your cleats for best advantage in the same way as ye rest on the arms during TT's instead of using them. The body position and appearance setup used with this technique at full power output will be identical to that of Anquetil in the footage of his successful hour record attempt.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 16:59

Post #153 of 544 Views: 14768

Any news on Joaquin's daughter?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 16:59

Post #154 of 544 Views: 14768

In Reply To:

[reply][reply]
There will be no torque measuring devices...[/reply]
Why not? Wouldn't that definitively confirm or (gasp!) disprove your claims? Sounds to me like you're afraid of something...
Also, can I ask what the relation of your saddle is to the BB? Using the UCI method of measurement, what's your "saddle setback"? It's just that after trying to decode your descriptions of "toes down" pedaling and the "linear style", I keep thinking that, if taken to the extreme, your setup looks something like this:
[img]http://www.me.mtu.edu/news/HPV_2004-02a.jpg[/img][/reply]

Because I know exactly where I am applying the power and those who see how it's done and experience the basic techniques for themselves will also understand how and where the power is being applied. The saddle setting is 2 cm behind BB, it does not comply with the UCI rules but that's due to their ignorance on pedaling. That rule was only introduced to prevent G. Obree from ending up with a position as in your picture. The reason you and others find my descriptions so hard to understand is because ye have all failed to use your cleats for best advantage in the same way as ye rest on the arms during TT's instead of using them. The body position and appearance setup used with this technique at full power output will be identical to that of Anquetil in the footage of his successful hour record attempt.

OK...so now we're finally getting somewhere (I think). So, you advocate a setup rotated forward about the bottom bracket as compared to a typical road position. Naturally, that will result in the "toes down" position appearance you describe if the orientation of the legs and feet are consistent relative to the BB. I myself have a TT position close to this and coupled with a Flandis-style bar position, I find that I can use my arms to aid in short term power "spikes". Also, it does feel as if the power application is in more of a fore and aft direction. But, to say that this "eliminates the dead spot" is simply ludicrous.

Why do you never post side shots of Mr. Anquetil to help demonstrate your supposed "point"? For example, you describe footage of his hour record attempt. It's pretty simple to grab a screenshot, isn't it?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 11, 07 17:40

Post #155 of 544 Views: 14754

In Reply To:

Any news on Joaquin's daughter?

Given the misfortune that seems to follow everyone who tries to validate Frank's claims, I think we've proven one thing...

PC's are bad luck.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 12:08

Post #156 of 544 Views: 14694

OK...so now we're [i]finally[/i] getting somewhere (I think). So, you advocate a setup rotated forward about the bottom bracket as compared to a typical road position. Naturally, that will result in the "toes down" position appearance you describe if the orientation of the legs and feet are consistent relative to the BB. I myself have a TT position close to this and coupled with a Flandis-style bar position, I find that I can use my arms to aid in short term power "spikes". Also, it does [i]feel[/i] as if the power application is in more of a fore and aft direction. But, to say that this "eliminates the dead spot" is simply ludicrous.

Why do you never post side shots of Mr. Anquetil to help demonstrate your supposed "point"? For example, you describe footage of his hour record attempt. It's pretty simple to grab a screenshot, isn't it? [/reply]

Sorry to have to say this, you are getting nowhere. To begin, you can't use Landis aero type clip on bars. For this technique special "Scott Rake" type bars are a necessity, set the same distance apart as the balls of feet on pedals. I am using a normal road bike position. Saddle set back from BB has nothing to do with a rider's position on bike because he could be seated on nose of saddle or well back to the rear of the saddle as I do. The "toes down" pedaling style is overdone, the direction that the shoes are pointing is the direction through which the power is being directed from hip to pedal. J Bobet a pro rider still alive today rode with Anquetil and later as a journalist studied his technique from a car as he followed him in time trials. He was the only person to make a correct analysis of where Anquetil's success lay, when asked he replied," I think it was to do with his pedaling style, his muscles and the smooth constant way that they delivered power to his bike, Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion, his system was totally adapted to it." This is a clear reference to the ability to be able to apply max power at all times even when the pedals were travelling through the dead spot area. So while you can't do it, that does not mean it cannot be done. My knowledge of computers is very limited, it came too late in life, I hate it and never had the patience to do any study on their uses, I only did what was necessry for work before I retired almost a year ago.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 13:10

Post #157 of 544 Views: 14663

In Reply To:

Sorry to have to say this, you are getting nowhere. To begin, you can't use Landis aero type clip on bars. For this technique special "Scott Rake" type bars are a necessity, set the same distance apart as the balls of feet on pedals. I am using a normal road bike position. Saddle set back from BB has nothing to do with a rider's position on bike because he could be seated on nose of saddle or well back to the rear of the saddle as I do. The "toes down" pedaling style is overdone, the direction that the shoes are pointing is the direction through which the power is being directed from hip to pedal. J Bobet a pro rider still alive today rode with Anquetil and later as a journalist studied his technique from a car as he followed him in time trials. He was the only person to make a correct analysis of where Anquetil's success lay, when asked he replied," I think it was to do with his pedaling style, his muscles and the smooth constant way that they delivered power to his bike, Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion, his system was totally adapted to it." This is a clear reference to the ability to be able to apply max power at all times even when the pedals were travelling through the dead spot area. So while you can't do it, that does not mean it cannot be done. My knowledge of computers is very limited, it came too late in life, I hate it and never had the patience to do any study on their uses, I only did what was necessry for work before I retired almost a year ago.

Well, GOOD LORD, MAN, you'd better get this "mysterious technique" documented somehow before it's lost forever to the sands of time! I'm not saying it'll happen anytime soon, but you aren't getting any younger, are you?

BTW, have you ever successfully taught this "technique" to an actual person? Just hoping we might have another resource to tap into to try to figure what in the heck you keep doddering on about...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 13:25

Post #158 of 544 Views: 14647

11th post down.

Does it look familiar

http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-233514-p-11.html

"Only when the leg power application and arm resistance lines are parallel can most effective use be made of the arms. This cannot happen with aerobars or with the natural pedalling style. You need "Scott Rake" type bars and a very different pedalling style."

And I am guessing the Fday is Frank day.

.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 13:33

Post #159 of 544 Views: 14643

[reply][reply]

BTW, have you ever successfully taught this "technique" to an actual person? Just hoping we might have another resource to tap into to try to figure what in the heck you keep doddering on about...[/reply]

Now you can understand why I can't take the risk of breaking records, this is a very powerful style and there is the danger of blowing a gasket. That's why I would like to pass it on to scientists before I return to some serious time trial riding. If I don't, changes in equipment in recent years have now made it impossible for anyone else to discover this technique. No I have not passed it on to anyone, riders around here are not interested in the science of pedaling, dead spots etc, like Dr Coggan all they are interested in is stomping on their pedals.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 14:04

Post #160 of 544 Views: 14617

You say no one wants to learn it??

What a load of CRAP!!!!!!!!

I will state here and now I will come to WHERE EVER you are and have you teach me your technique and use it EXCLUSIVELY.

Put up or SHUT UP, N CROWLEY!

Here you are spewing the same garbage back in Nov 2001

This one is from Nov 2001.

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EEE7F77.php

Second post from the bottom.

Brainwashed into believing that the round pedaling method of
pedaling is the only way to pedal. Riders are spending their
hard earned cash on over expensive equipment in order to save seconds in a tt, while countless riders throughout the
world are forced to suffer lower back pain or else give up
the sport. By using Anquetil's combined arm/leg power way
of pedaling, minutes could be saved and all cycling related
lower back pain eliminated, and all for free, if the experts
swallowed their pride and accepted the fact that they were wrong and there was a more efficient and safer way to
power the pedals. Saying Anquetil was genetically a freak
of nature with an enlarged heart etc was an easy escape for
the experts from having to admit that all his success was
due to his mysterious pedaling.
The proof of the effect that Anquetil's technique had on
the back can be found in the recently released video on
Anquetil's racing career, in the statement of his teams
masseur " When lying face down on the massage table, the
backs of all the riders were curved downwards but there was
no curve on Anquetil's back, it was flat and felt very
powerful". The difference was such that it left the masseur
still believing that Anquetil's mysterious power came from
his back. In reality that difference was due to the effect
of the years of continuous strain which round pedalling
puts on the back. Anquetil's technique puts all that strain
safely in the hips and strengthens the back.

.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 16:35

Post #161 of 544 Views: 14569

[reply]You say no one wants to learn it??
What a load of CRAP!!!!!!!!
I will state here and now I will come to WHERE EVER you are and have you teach me your technique and use it EXCLUSIVELY.
Put up or SHUT UP, N CROWLEY!

.[/reply]

You will have to agree it is consistent which means it's genuine.
Yes I am about to put up very soon but sorry unlike Frank Day, you are not a scientist. I hope you have got good value from your Powercranks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 16:39

Post #162 of 544 Views: 14566

Thank you for the reply.

I am not sure if you think I have power cranks or not. To tell you the truth I don't even know exactly what power cranks are.

What I am interested in is going faster. If you would like to show me how I am more than willing to fly to where you are or fly you here so you can show me.

As I say I just want to go faster and am willing to learn from anyone.

Just send me a PM to set it up. You say no one around you wants to learn so now you have no more excuses.

.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 12, 07 16:56

Post #163 of 544 Views: 14552

In Reply To:

You will have to agree it is consistent which means it's genuine.

It only means that you genuinely believe it to be true...not that is true. There's a difference.

In Reply To:

Yes I am about to put up very soon but sorry unlike Frank Day, you are not a scientist. I hope you have got good value from your Powercranks.

If Mr. Day fits your definition of a "scientist", well...then that just makes the potential pool of qualified observers wide open, now doesn't it? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 07 10:11

Post #164 of 544 Views: 14502

Anyone seen the file yet?

I don't want to be inconsiderate about Joaquin's daughter, I'm not sure how she's doing. Just curious about the file in question.

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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 07 10:29

Post #165 of 544 Views: 14484

I don't think we're going to hear from Joaquim again.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 07 12:11

Post #166 of 544 Views: 14454

In Reply To:

Anyone seen the file yet?

I don't want to be inconsiderate about Joaquin's daughter, I'm not sure how she's doing. Just curious about the file in question.

I am sure he will forward it when he gets a chance. I understand he travel's A LOT. We will get it when we get it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 13, 07 12:26

Post #167 of 544 Views: 14443

"I am sure he will forward it when he gets a chance. I understand he travel's A LOT. We will get it when we get it"

I'm sure you're right. But, if it were me and a bunch of random guys from a forum were talking about me, I'd spend the 45 seconds it takes to FTP the file to someone and be done with it. But, that's just me. He seems convinced of his power numbers, and a few seconds to upload a file sounds like time well spent to get some people off my back.

Then again, if he's traveling he might not have internet access....the internet isn't everywhere! ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 07 15:09

Post #168 of 544 Views: 14379

[reply]
Thank you for the reply.

I am not sure if you think I have power cranks or not. To tell you the truth I don't even know exactly what power cranks are.

What I am interested in is going faster.

. [/reply]

What pedaling style do you use ? This technique will make you faster but I am not a coach and when I give this demonstration it is only for demonstrating the basic biomechanics of this completely different method of pedaling, in order to confirm that max power can be applied through that normally neutral area around 12 o'c, that max arm resistance and leg power can be combined and that the lower back can be completely removed from all the stress and strains of sustained powerful high gear power output in time trials.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 07 15:39

Post #169 of 544 Views: 14364

In Reply To:

What pedaling style do you use ? This technique will make you faster but I am not a coach and when I give this demonstration it is only for demonstrating the basic biomechanics of this completely different method of pedaling, in order to confirm that max power can be applied through that normally neutral area around 12 o'c, that max arm resistance and leg power can be combined and that the lower back can be completely removed from all the stress and strains of sustained powerful high gear power output in time trials.

Do you mean you have to lay on the floor and pedal upwards at the bike? I would agree that you could reduce back strain that way and eliminate the dead spot, but it seems to be a questionable way to go faster. Well, it's no wonder you're the only one who has perfected it (much less thought of it). I'm just glad you finally cleared up what you were talking about.

Cheers,

Brad

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 07 15:52

Post #170 of 544 Views: 14356

I try different ways of peddaling from higher cadence trying the round circles of 95 to 100 and also mashing at 85 RPM>

And I am suffering back aches from it. I have done TTs, road races and tris and am desperately seeking something for more power and less back stress.

I am VERY open to trying alternatives.

.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bjbest] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 07 16:47

Post #171 of 544 Views: 14345

[reply][reply]

Do you mean you have to lay on the floor and pedal upwards at the bike? I would agree that you could reduce back strain that way and eliminate the dead spot, but it seems to be a questionable way to go faster. Well, it's no wonder you're the only one who has perfected it (much less thought of it). I'm just glad you finally cleared up what you were talking about.
Cheers,
Brad[/reply]

Engineers are still trying in vain to eliminate that notorious dead area, I don't eliminate it, I make maximum use of the opportunity it offers to apply additional max power where nobody else can. Like yourself the mistake all riders make is in believing that pedal power can only be applied by using the gym leg press machine type technique and this is the limiting factor and root cause of all pedaling's unsolved problems.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 19, 07 21:25

Post #172 of 544 Views: 14272

In Reply To:

Anyone seen the file yet?

I don't want to be inconsiderate about Joaquin's daughter, I'm not sure how she's doing. Just curious about the file in question.

Just got it.

I'm kinda busy at the moment but I'll try to look more deeply at the file either tomorrow or Wednesday.

Thanks go to Joaquin for sharing the file. Hope his daughter is better.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 9:02

Post #173 of 544 Views: 14215

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Anyone seen the file yet?

I don't want to be inconsiderate about Joaquin's daughter, I'm not sure how she's doing. Just curious about the file in question.

Just got it.

I'm kinda busy at the moment but I'll try to look more deeply at the file either tomorrow or Wednesday.

Thanks go to Joaquin for sharing the file. Hope his daughter is better.

I did hear from Joaquin that he thought he had sent this to everyone awhile back. Anyhow, it has apparently gone out to everyone who asked for it now. Looking forward to the evaluations.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 10:13

Post #174 of 544 Views: 14185

Should be interesting. This is one of those cases where HR is not redundant, as it may say a lot about how maxed out the effort really was (or not, I can't recall right now). Everyone will have plenty of spare time over the holiday weekend to argue about it! Smile

Smile

Mad

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [triguy42] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 12:11

Post #175 of 544 Views: 14136

[reply]Should be interesting. This is one of those cases where HR is not redundant, as it may say a lot about how maxed out the effort really was (or not, I can't recall right now). Everyone will have plenty of spare time over the holiday weekend to argue about it! [:)][/reply]

When examination of this file is complete, what is it going to prove about the use of Powercranks that could not be done with normal cranks ?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 12:39

Post #176 of 544 Views: 18095

In Reply To:

When examination of this file is complete, what is it going to prove about the use of Powercranks that could not be done with normal cranks ?

Nothing. All it will prove is whether he does what he says he could do. Most of the people here predicted he would perhaps be in the 300-320 watt range. As I remember, he predicted he would average above 350 watts for this climb but he did not expect to be close to 400 watts (as might have been predicted by his earlier testing), because of his prior injury. The file should document what he really did and what his effort was for the climb, that is all.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 16:47

Post #177 of 544 Views: 18046

Here is the data put into a chart format. sorry I don't know how to turn the X axis into real time nor keep the colors that were in Excel. I added two trend lines, a moving average and a polynomial trend. His average wattage for the effort is about 358. His total time is about 28.5 minutes.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 17:25

Post #178 of 544 Views: 18028

The data (or plot actually) looks fishy. Notice that with 1 exception, all the max peaks look clipped at the same value? Same for the low values. And then some of the data traces look the same in character (as if they were cut and pasted multiple times. Raw data would be needed to really see what's going on. The plot just doesn't pass the looks right test.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 17:35

Post #179 of 544 Views: 18020

In Reply To:

The data (or plot actually) looks fishy. Notice that with 1 exception, all the max peaks look clipped at the same value? Same for the low values. And then some of the data traces look the same in character (as if they were cut and pasted multiple times. Raw data would be needed to really see what's going on. The plot just doesn't pass the looks right test.

Of course, whatever Joaquin does will look "fishy" to some here. Anyhow, send me your email and I will send you the raw CSV file for this period as forwarded to me.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:01

Post #180 of 544 Views: 17989

In Reply To:

Raw data would be needed to really see what's going on.

Joaquin has said that the reason the file took so long to get to us is because his server choked on the size of the original file. Accordingly, I've taken the liberty of putting the file I got from him --> here <-- in original PT .csv format. Joaquin says that the file includes a *lot* of other rides that precede the the climb of La Morcuera and that the relevant interval is marked as ID=1. That occurs about 175km into the file. That segment is 28:35 minutes and 8.76km long, with a mean of 359 watts.

However, the data are very, very odd. Perhaps the best thing is to show you a few plots of the data, with the preceding 8km from the file to show you the difference. In each panel, the data to the right of the vertical dotted line shows the climb.

The fourth and sixth panels may need some explanation.

The fourth panel shows the difference between the reported distance (8.76 total km) vs. the distance calculated from speed and time. As you can see, the cumulated error over the first 175 km of the file is essentially zero. However, the distance calculated from reported speed differs by more than a kilometer over the ensuing 8.76 km. That is to say, the speed for the climb doesn't match up with the distance.

The sixth panel shows the estimated gear ratios used. Gear ratios are calculable either with speed and cadence or, if one has a Power Tap, by watts, cadence, and hub torque. The point is that gear ratios are quite distinct and discrete, as you can see from the left side of the panel (or for the preceding 167km, if you calculate and plot them). However, the gear ratios for the climb data don't fall into neat rows.

The second panel shows speed during the climb. Joaquin was able to maintain speed in a very small range over the entire climb, with sudden jumps and discontinuities. Despite the jumps in speed, Joaquin's HR was a very steady 182 bpm.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:14

Post #181 of 544 Views: 17978

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Raw data would be needed to really see what's going on.

The fourth panel shows the difference between the reported distance (8.76 total km) vs. the distance calculated from speed and time. As you can see, the cumulated error over the first 175 km of the file is essentially zero. However, the distance calculated from reported speed differs by more than a kilometer over the ensuing 8.76 km. That is to say, the speed for the climb doesn't match up with the distance.

I am confused. How does this "error" occur? He rode further than the reported difference. Could this be accounted for by switchbacks? What does this mean? And, what does it mean for power? Isn't that what people were really concerned about?

In Reply To:

The sixth panel shows the estimated gear ratios used. Gear ratios are calculable either with speed and cadence or, if one has a Power Tap, by watts, cadence, and hub torque. The point is that gear ratios are quite distinct and discrete, as you can see from the left side of the panel (or for the preceding 167km, if you calculate and plot them). However, the gear ratios for the climb data don't fall into neat rows.

Interpretation?

In Reply To:

The second panel shows speed during the climb. Joaquin was able to maintain speed in a very small range over the entire climb, with sudden jumps and discontinuities. Despite the jumps in speed, Joaquin's HR was a very steady 182 bpm.

Interpretation?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:24

Post #182 of 544 Views: 17971

"Interpretation? "

...suffice to say you aren't going to like, believe, or agree with what William Of Ockham would suggest is the answer to this question.

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:32

Post #183 of 544 Views: 17963

If you look at the raw data file, you will find a number of sequences in the power column that are very interesting because they are so similar. A small sample for the curious reader, each sequence of 11 was pulled from adjacent segments of the file.

440 440 440 440 440
417 417 417 417 417
397 397 397 397 397
399 399 399 399 399
339 339 339 339 339
388 388 334 381 334
363 363 368 325 368
357 357 345 356 345
363 363 344 365 344
355 355 328 395 328
381 381 355 337 355

440 440 440 440 440
417 417 417 417 417
397 397 397 397 397
399 399 399 399 399
356 339 339 397 367
391 381 381 399 344
352 325 325 339 373
366 356 356 381 381
437 365 365 325 325
425 395 395 356 356
402 390 366 365 365

FWIW,

Philbert

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Last edited by: Philbert: Nov 20, 07 19:47

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:34

Post #184 of 544 Views: 17961

I think he is trying to be kind, Frank.

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:37

Post #185 of 544 Views: 17957

In Reply To:

"Interpretation? "

...suffice to say you aren't going to like, believe, or agree with what William Of Ockham would suggest is the answer to this question.

.

The data is the data. But, let me remind you of what Kendall Frederick wrote in the original post that started this thread: "Bottom line though: Joaquin's for real. Here's a guy past 40, 3 kids, traveling job, and he's putting out a LOT of power".

So, give me your interpretation of the data and not some vague insinuation that the data shows that Joaquin took time to somehow manipulate the data to make himself look better than he really is. If that is what you believe, say it. Thank goodness Kendall was there to witness the whole thing (at least the start). At least the interpretation of the data doesn't say he rode less than the reported distance. You guys kill me.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 20, 07 19:38

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Philbert] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:40

Post #186 of 544 Views: 17951

In Reply To:

I think he is trying to be kind, Frank.

Why doesn't he call Kendall a liar (or co-conspirator) also?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:41

Post #187 of 544 Views: 17950

Quote:

The data is the data

No, see, that is the problem. The data is not the data. The data is what was in that powertap before it was manipulated (poorly).

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 19:44

Post #188 of 544 Views: 17948

Quote:

Why doesn't he call Kendall a liar (or co-conspirator) also?

Because this guy is a talented cyclist who is putting out a lot of power...just not as much as he wishes he was. I think it is really sad that someone felt the need to doctor this file to answer the criticism of an Internet forum. With that in mind, I think we should leave Joaquin alone. Over and out.

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!

Last edited by: Philbert: Nov 20, 07 20:00

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 20:06

Post #189 of 544 Views: 17918

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I think he is trying to be kind, Frank.

Why doesn't he call Kendall a liar (or co-conspirator) also?

Because Kendall got dropped within the first couple of minutes of the climb, had no idea what his own power output was (his battery died), and has (if I recall correctly) an FTP in the low 3's [w/kg] (again, based on the recollection that Kendall said his FTP was ~290 and his weight ~90kg) which is not particularly good in the overall scheme of things. It's basically the typical power of an average CAT4 or CAT5 racer, which is not be negative towards Kendall at all. I'm just merely pointing out that very factual observation that Kendall is not really in a position to evaluate someone who is "for real" in terms of power output. Kendall isn't any sort of liar or co-conspirator, since he didn't actually witness anything, other than some brief glimpses on the powertap output during the warm-up of the ride and the very beginning of the climb. He couldn't tell you anything at all other than Joaquin is a more powerful climber than he is, which isn't saying too much.

It'd be like a 6 minute mile runner going for a run and getting dropped by a 4:15 miler as easily as by a 3:55 miler. Of course, the former is a dime a dozen, and the latter is something special, and trying to evaluate which of the two the person dropping you based on some subjective evaluation is questionable.

Kendall doesn't deserve to be brought into this, because he merely reported what he saw, which, unfortunately, doesn't count for too much.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 20:42

Post #190 of 544 Views: 17893

Got the data from Robert's link. Either the guy has an incredible feedback control loop built in, the powertap went bonkers, or the data was manipulated. Given the first option isn't plausible, we can only assume the 2nd or 3rd choices are valid. Either way, the data is garbage. Just zoom in on the power data from time 357 minutes to 362 minutes. You'll see the EXACT same data trace replicated. There are 4 instances in just this short data chunk.

It's disconcerting that someone completely ignores what the data is saying. Anyone with half a brain and a passing knowledge on power/powermeters would know this data is dorked up. To say otherwise is folly. I'm not saying this fella didn't have a spectacular ride or is capable, but merely that the EVIDENCE provided should be tossed out. It's BAD data.

Last edited by: tigermilk: Nov 20, 07 21:02

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 20:45

Post #191 of 544 Views: 17889

In Reply To:

I am confused. How does this "error" occur? He rode further than the reported difference. Could this be accounted for by switchbacks? What does this mean? And, what does it mean for power? Isn't that what people were really concerned about?

Well...I didn't get a chance to look at the file until this evening since it was MY turn to be out of town on business ;-)

Frank, the "error" occurs because the file is badly faked. All Robert did is look at the speed x sample time vs. distance in the supposed PT file. In other words, the file isn't even consistent within itself.

In Reply To:

The sixth panel shows the estimated gear ratios used. Gear ratios are calculable either with speed and cadence or, if one has a Power Tap, by watts, cadence, and hub torque. The point is that gear ratios are quite distinct and discrete, as you can see from the left side of the panel (or for the preceding 167km, if you calculate and plot them). However, the gear ratios for the climb data don't fall into neat rows.

In Reply To:

Interpretation?

The only interpretation of that data that would make sense besides being faked is that Joaquin shifted up, down, around, and across his gear cluster every couple of seconds or so for an entire 1/2 hour.

I don't think so....

In Reply To:

The second panel shows speed during the climb. Joaquin was able to maintain speed in a very small range over the entire climb, with sudden jumps and discontinuities. Despite the jumps in speed, Joaquin's HR was a very steady 182 bpm.

Interpretation?[/reply]
Actually, it's not steady at 182...it has a very consistent and odd cyclic pattern to it:

That sure doesn't look like any HR plot I've ever seen...

So...the answer to the original question (i.e. Liar, liar??) is YES.

Frank...I would expect that as an ethical businessman you would remove all traces of Joaquin's claims from your website.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 23:17

Post #192 of 544 Views: 17834

Before I accuse someone of faking data I need something better than one "inconsistent" file. For instance, here is some data that looks a tad "faked" from the supposed "good" portion of the data, the very first 27 data points. That is about 30 seconds of data with an average of over 50 watts power with an average cadence of zero. And during this period his speed varied from a low of 4 km/hr to over 13 km/hr. An "impossibility". Yet, there it is in the part of the file for which there would be no reason to fake and which was used as a model of consistency to discredit the climb part of the file. At least everytime torque was zero power was zero. Some consistency there but it makes no sense to me. So, while I can see everyone's point regarding the inconsistencies in this file, I see no motivation nor do I see any reason his other testing data would be "faked".

Anyhow, before I render a judgment here that makes no sense whatsoever from a motive point of view I would like to know more about how the PT works. Does it take the highest, lowest, or an average during these sampling periods and how is power calculated for each interval? (How is it possible for the PT to calculate a power when the cadence seen by the PT is zero?)

And, let me suggest one possibility that might explain some of the gear data "problem" that may come directly from the fact he did the climb on PC's. If he was in and out of the saddle on this climb it is clear that one thing that everyone does when they are riding PowerCranks and they sit back down is that both legs go down. This would probably really screw up the cadence and "gear sensing" function of the PT for a short period of time that some are seeing as an inconsistency.

Anyhow, I will reserve judgment until he is tested by the Mapei Center, something he has arranged to do. Why he would do this with the certainty of knowing that his "fraud" would be discovered is beyond me, but we will see what we will see. I know many of you will never expect to see such a test ever being completed just as many of you never expected to see this file but I do and I expect him to do well. If I am wrong, then I will admit it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 23:36

Post #193 of 544 Views: 17827

Hello,

I live in Madrid, I do not know anybody from you there; I have three kids (age 5, 3 y/o, and 7 months old). And my job is "Director of Energy Management" in ENDESA (the biggest Spanish Utility) with several investment all through Europe. I travel every week to Italy, Morocco, Greece, France, Poland... and I manage more than 6 billion Euros in sales with a team over 200 people.
I am in the middle of the winter season doing just fun rides with my team mates; do you understand this? fun rides, going out and drinking a cocacola together; and I accepted going out with a very nice guy called Kendall, to show him La Morcuera, and ride as fast as I can for half an hour.
But when I get here I read people saying stupid nonensenses about someone they do not know. I wrote several weeks ago that I was able to meet Alvaro and ride with him, but he never showed up... .
So I would suggest that you spent your time in something as useful as your family, or read books or paint, or even play the piano. But in the mean time, please abstain to insult me. Do whatever you want, I do not even care, but I am really to busy to spend my time with people as stupid as you are. At least I have many, many friends and interesting things to do. Go out and ride your bike, and enjoy if you can.
I cannot understand what you are looking for; I think the best explanation you should think of is that I do not even exist.

Joaquin

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 23:37

Post #194 of 544 Views: 17827

"If I am wrong, then I will admit it. "

Thanks for that! definitely gets my vote as funniest line on ST this month...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 20, 07 23:42

Post #195 of 544 Views: 17825

In Reply To:

Before I accuse someone of faking data I need something better than one "inconsistent" file. For instance, here is some data that looks a tad "faked" from the supposed "good" portion of the data, the very first 27 data points. That is about 30 seconds of data with an average of over 50 watts power with an average cadence of zero. And during this period his speed varied from a low of 4 km/hr to over 13 km/hr. An "impossibility". Yet, there it is in the part of the file for which there would be no reason to fake and which was used as a model of consistency to discredit the climb part of the file.

I'm guessing you haven't looked at a lot of Power Tap files (I have). Cadence drop-outs are pretty common, whether cadence is estimated at the hub or using the cadence sensor. They don't affect the power reading, however (the Power Tap measures power by measuring both torque and velocity at the hub--there's a small magnet in the hub). Crank velocity has nothing to do with power measurement (on a PT).

Interestingly, there's only one section of the ride that doesn't have any cadence drop outs. Guess which section that would be? Hmmmmm........

I've seen literally thousands of power tap files, and I've never seen one like this one. The data have very obviously been manipulated. I actually wondered if the PC's had some sort of affect on the power--except that the speed and HR data has been clearly manipulated as well.

I know you won't believe anyone on here, since we're all out to get you--so I suggest you send the file to someone that you trust who regularly reviews power files, and ask him or her their opinion in the matter.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 0:56

Post #196 of 544 Views: 17810

In Reply To:

Hello,

I live in Madrid, I do not know anybody from you there; I have three kids (age 5, 3 y/o, and 7 months old). And my job is "Director of Energy Management" in ENDESA (the biggest Spanish Utility) with several investment all through Europe. I travel every week to Italy, Morocco, Greece, France, Poland... and I manage more than 6 billion Euros in sales with a team over 200 people.
I am in the middle of the winter season doing just fun rides with my team mates; do you understand this? fun rides, going out and drinking a cocacola together; and I accepted going out with a very nice guy called Kendall, to show him La Morcuera, and ride as fast as I can for half an hour.
But when I get here I read people saying stupid nonensenses about someone they do not know. I wrote several weeks ago that I was able to meet Alvaro and ride with him, but he never showed up... .
So I would suggest that you spent your time in something as useful as your family, or read books or paint, or even play the piano. But in the mean time, please abstain to insult me. Do whatever you want, I do not even care, but I am really to busy to spend my time with people as stupid as you are. At least I have many, many friends and interesting things to do. Go out and ride your bike, and enjoy if you can.
I cannot understand what you are looking for; I think the best explanation you should think of is that I do not even exist.

Joaquin

Joaquin,

It sounds like you have a full, busy and rewarding life. On the other hand, it's beyond doubt that your powertap file has been manipulated. This raises the question: why would you fake a powertap file just to impress a bunch of anonymous people on an internet forum?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 1:34

Post #197 of 544 Views: 17806

Good question. Impress who?

Umm let me think an answer: Maybe the file was not manipulated. (Now I am impressing you, eh...)

Maybe my PT is not working at all. Maybe when I sent it to Saris for sevicing because it was dropping data, they destroyed it.

Or maybe it is the hub that is not working. Or the antenna. Or the cheast band. Maybe I my power up La Morcuera was 390 Watts.Or maybe La Morcuera does not exist at all. Maybe Kendall does not exists. Or even Frank. Or maybe I am Frank myself.

And then, what?

Unfortunatelly there are several riders over here who still beat me up La Morcuera. And when they beat me I have no clue as to what is their wattage. Maybe they manipulate the climb, to slow me down to impress you.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 2:20

Post #198 of 544 Views: 17799

Okay, so what is your best guess as to why the data is highly irregular and does not appear to be a genuine reflection of your power output on the climb?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 2:33

Post #199 of 544 Views: 17796

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Before I accuse someone of faking data I need something better than one "inconsistent" file. For instance, here is some data that looks a tad "faked" from the supposed "good" portion of the data, the very first 27 data points. That is about 30 seconds of data with an average of over 50 watts power with an average cadence of zero. And during this period his speed varied from a low of 4 km/hr to over 13 km/hr. An "impossibility". Yet, there it is in the part of the file for which there would be no reason to fake and which was used as a model of consistency to discredit the climb part of the file.

I'm guessing you haven't looked at a lot of Power Tap files (I have). Cadence drop-outs are pretty common, whether cadence is estimated at the hub or using the cadence sensor. They don't affect the power reading, however (the Power Tap measures power by measuring both torque and velocity at the hub--there's a small magnet in the hub). Crank velocity has nothing to do with power measurement (on a PT).

Interestingly, there's only one section of the ride that doesn't have any cadence drop outs. Guess which section that would be? Hmmmmm........

I've seen literally thousands of power tap files, and I've never seen one like this one. The data have very obviously been manipulated. I actually wondered if the PC's had some sort of affect on the power--except that the speed and HR data has been clearly manipulated as well.

I know you won't believe anyone on here, since we're all out to get you--so I suggest you send the file to someone that you trust who regularly reviews power files, and ask him or her their opinion in the matter.

OK, let us be Miss marple or Sherlock Holmes and deduce what happened here. You ride up La Morcuera and, to your dismay, get home and find out the PT file only shows you averaging 300 watts yet you everyone you averaged 350 watts. But, you want everyone to believe you did 350 watts and youhave promised them the file. What would you do?

1. Take the spreadsheet and increase each power number 16% which would give you the power numbers you have been telling everyone?

2. Take the spreadsheet and manually change the 1600 power, torque, speed, and HR numbers (in lieu of a 16% straight substitution done by the computer which would keep all the normal variation intact and make it not possible to find any patterns in the numbers proving this inartful manipulation), leaving the distance numbers alone.

Which would you choose to do? Human nature says the typiical person would take the easy way and just change the power numbers. Why go to the bother of doing all this other stuff? Who is going to look? Only the ST mafia but who would have suspected?

Thanks for letting me know how the PT works. Except you forgot to say whether the power measurement comes from peak, average or minimal torque during the period and peak, average, or minimal velocity during the period. Do you know? How it works could make a difference in evaluating and possibly explaining these inconsistencies without a need to invoke nefarious intent.

Can you tell me the significance again that there were no cadence drop outs during this 100% effort, 30 minute climb when compared to his other efforts, when there was probably some coasting?

Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file. I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 2:36

Post #200 of 544 Views: 17794

The only genuine reflection of my effort is my time. And for me 28,5 minutes during the off season is a great result. I do not care if I do 330 Watt, 350 Watt of 900 Watt. I just care about improving and winning races. And I am very close to my PB in November, using PCs with my training bike. And this is the only fact for me. I usually improve 2-3 minutes from my off season results to my best results in the middle of the racing season. So I am very happy for this.

I do not know if the PT CPU works alight, or the hub, or riding with PCs ruins the results. I sent my PT to Saris to be fixed since it was dropping data every few seconds, I know nothing about PowerTap mechanism inside, or how files are generated, but when I set up my PT the data is recorded at different time intevals for POWER, Cadence, HR, Torque, etc.

Do you remember when I sent my PT files for my training rides in February, and I was doing four 15 minute intervals at 330 Watt and 160 bpm, and I was saying they were not maximal efforts? There were several explanations by these people here, but nobody said: if someone is able to do four consecutive 15 minute intervals at 330 Watts with avg HR of 160 bpm, maybe they looked wrong to someone.

And If I remember right it was Kendall who started the thread himself, not me. He saw the results, and I never intended to post anything here. My files are just for my personal use. I saw a big improvement both in PB up La Morcuera after one year using PCs, and in my racing results (and there are many witnesses over here who know me and saw that); and that is what is important for me. I do not care at all about PT files, sice it is just a training tool.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 4:37

Post #201 of 544 Views: 14978

[reply]
Thanks for letting me know how the PT works. Except you forgot to say whether the power measurement comes from peak, average or minimal torque during the period and peak, average, or minimal velocity during the period. Do you know? How it works could make a difference in evaluating and possibly explaining these inconsistencies without a need to invoke nefarious intent.
[\reply]
It takes a snapshot in time. If set on the 1.26 second recording mode, it takes the instantaneous value at that time slice. 1.26 seconds later, it takes another instant value. No max, min, average, etc. Just what the data is. Same for the other time recording modes (i.e., 2.52 seconds, ...).

[reply]...but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file.[/reply]

Which is why I originally said nothing about intent, just that the data was bad. It could indeed be a Powertap glitch, though in my 4-5+ years and 2000+ riding hours of owning 3 PT CPUs I've never experienced such a problem.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 7:27

Post #202 of 544 Views: 14917

In Reply To:

The data have very obviously been manipulated.

I agree. The question is, who manipulated them?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 7:41

Post #203 of 544 Views: 14904

In Reply To:

OK, let us be Miss marple or Sherlock Holmes and deduce what happened here. You ride up La Morcuera and, to your dismay, get home and find out the PT file only shows you averaging 300 watts yet you everyone you averaged 350 watts. But, you want everyone to believe you did 350 watts and youhave promised them the file. What would you do?

1. Take the spreadsheet and increase each power number 16% which would give you the power numbers you have been telling everyone?

That still would have been caught by Robert. I'm not going to explain how, since that would make it easier for someone to attempt to fake another file in the future, but anyone familiar with all the types of analyses possible with a power file would figure it out...

In Reply To:

2. Take the spreadsheet and manually change the 1600 power, torque, speed, and HR numbers (in lieu of a 16% straight substitution done by the computer which would keep all the normal variation intact and make it not possible to find any patterns in the numbers proving this inartful manipulation), leaving the distance numbers alone.

People do stranger (dumber?) things every day...

In Reply To:

Thanks for letting me know how the PT works. Except you forgot to say whether the power measurement comes from peak, average or minimal torque during the period and peak, average, or minimal velocity during the period. Do you know? How it works could make a difference in evaluating and possibly explaining these inconsistencies without a need to invoke nefarious intent.

The PT takes an average of the previous 1.26s for all values and saves them. That fact makes no difference in how this file is being evaluated.

In Reply To:

Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file.

SOME inconsistencies???? The WHOLE thing is inconsistent. Frank, your sounding a tad bit delusional here...
The ONLY things consistent with your distorted view of the situation is average power, the elapsed time, and the distance. The problem (for you and the liar) is that the physics of the situation and the other data in the file allows for a cross-check with reality. This file fails that check miserably.

In Reply To:

I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file.

As I said above, that type of manipulation is actually possible to detect and Robert would have found it if that is what had happened. You'd have to try harder than that.
The funny thing is, that he didn't even need to go into that much depth of analysis...this fake was so sloppy, it basically screams out at you that it is fake.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 7:45

Post #204 of 544 Views: 14894

[reply]
Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file. I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file..[/reply]

Actually, it would be. If you jacked up each number by 16%, you'd have a significant jump in your VI, due to the way that Pnorm is calculated. Climbing is a very low VI effort. So if you bumped every number up 16%, you'd change that quite a bit. You'd also have glaring inconsistencies in your speed/power numbers. And you'd also be able to pick up problems in the related gear ratios.

All of this is assuming you actually paced the effort correctly and went the actual distance.

That is where the problem comes in. You not only told people how much power you could output (which is not that hard to fake), but you also told people how fast you went, and how long the climb was. Manipulating THIS data is not that easy.

If it was just about holding X watts for Y minutes, then sure that is not that hard to fake. But faking a complete file, with time, speed, distance, etc. is not easy at all and cannot be done via the method you suggest.

If you also have false ideas about how fast/strong you are, then you would be prone to starting way to hard and blowing up, which would make that file then even more difficult to doctor, since a 16% spike at the beginning would reveal inconsistencies in your critical power for shorter duration efforts.

So, how easy do you NOW think it is to fake a file that says that you climbed 8+km in ~29:00 at a power of 355 watts? Not so easy...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 7:46

Post #205 of 544 Views: 14893

In Reply To:

The only genuine reflection of my effort is my time. And for me 28,5 minutes during the off season is a great result. I do not care if I do 330 Watt, 350 Watt of 900 Watt. I just care about improving and winning races. And I am very close to my PB in November, using PCs with my training bike. And this is the only fact for me. I usually improve 2-3 minutes from my off season results to my best results in the middle of the racing season. So I am very happy for this.

I do not know if the PT CPU works alight, or the hub, or riding with PCs ruins the results. I sent my PT to Saris to be fixed since it was dropping data every few seconds, I know nothing about PowerTap mechanism inside, or how files are generated, but when I set up my PT the data is recorded at different time intevals for POWER, Cadence, HR, Torque, etc.

Do you remember when I sent my PT files for my training rides in February, and I was doing four 15 minute intervals at 330 Watt and 160 bpm, and I was saying they were not maximal efforts? There were several explanations by these people here, but nobody said: if someone is able to do four consecutive 15 minute intervals at 330 Watts with avg HR of 160 bpm, maybe they looked wrong to someone.

And If I remember right it was Kendall who started the thread himself, not me. He saw the results, and I never intended to post anything here. My files are just for my personal use. I saw a big improvement both in PB up La Morcuera after one year using PCs, and in my racing results (and there are many witnesses over here who know me and saw that); and that is what is important for me. I do not care at all about PT files, sice it is just a training tool.

You DO NOT set the intervals that your data is recorded differently for the various measurements. That's impossible. You possibly do have the screen value averaging set to different time spans, but that doesn't affect the saved data.

I don't believe you even did that time. You are the only one who said that you did. After all, Kendall wasn't there at the finish and the only report of your time that he received was from you.

I'm sorry...but you've lost ALL credibility.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 7:58

Post #206 of 544 Views: 14872

clearly bogus data. Reminds me of a similar juvenile attempt with a fabricated "NP Buster" file on the old topica wattage list ;-)

Just how stupid do some folks think others are????? And who can't use the RAND() function in Excel if you wanted to make it tougher to decipher???

This is truly a classic!! Where is RST BTW? ;-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:06

Post #207 of 544 Views: 14856

In Reply To:

clearly bogus data. Reminds me of a similar juvenile attempt with a fabricated "NP Buster" file on the old topica wattage list ;-)

Can you refresh my memory?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:07

Post #208 of 544 Views: 14850

In Reply To:

I cannot understand what you are looking for...

That's because you apparently cannot understand the truth. YOU are the one who sought out "notoriety" due to your apparent improvement that you attributed to powercranks. After being questioned about the claims and offering up a whole bunch of "sketchy" data with absolutely NO independent corroboration of your claims, here was your "put up, or shut up" moment...and you blew it...BIG time.

If I was Frank Day, I'd be pretty damned pissed off at you right now.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:16

Post #209 of 544 Views: 14836

In Reply To:

Which is why I originally said nothing about intent, just that the data was bad. It could indeed be a Powertap glitch, though in my 4-5+ years and 2000+ riding hours of owning 3 PT CPUs I've never experienced such a problem.

You may not have said anything about intent, but plenty of others here have.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:17

Post #210 of 544 Views: 14833

Frank,

The issue of "nefarious intent" aside, there is STILL no evidence that Joaquin can do what you and he said he could. How difficult is it for a guy with a powertap, internet access, and a challenging climb nearby to prove pretty convincingly his claimed prowess on the bike? It's so easy that the simple fact that he hasn't done it yet speaks volumes.

Maybe you should vet your PC "success stories" a little more carefully in future.

Don.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:35

Post #211 of 544 Views: 14805

So far, I have no "data" that says I am faster or stronger on the bike because of PC's. I have only seen over the years run improvements which
I have heard others say. I am trying to remember, Chad, or Dev or anyone else who has used PC's over time, have you seen any real
bike time improvements? Chad, I thought you did a test and told me you did not?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:40

Post #212 of 544 Views: 14799

In Reply To:

[reply]
Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file. I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file..[/reply]

Actually, it would be. If you jacked up each number by 16%, you'd have a significant jump in your VI, due to the way that Pnorm is calculated. Climbing is a very low VI effort. So if you bumped every number up 16%, you'd change that quite a bit. You'd also have glaring inconsistencies in your speed/power numbers. And you'd also be able to pick up problems in the related gear ratios.

Could you explain these "glaring inconsistencies" in the speed/power numbers again. That might be true on the flat where speed and power are somewhat related but when climbing the highest powers can occur at the lowest speeds due to the effect of gradient. Since this effort was 100% climb such a "glaring inconsistency" is cannot be apparent from this or any file.

In Reply To:

All of this is assuming you actually paced the effort correctly and went the actual distance.

That is where the problem comes in. You not only told people how much power you could output (which is not that hard to fake), but you also told people how fast you went, and how long the climb was. Manipulating THIS data is not that easy.

If it was just about holding X watts for Y minutes, then sure that is not that hard to fake. But faking a complete file, with time, speed, distance, etc. is not easy at all and cannot be done via the method you suggest.

Well, the file shows he went the "correct" distance in the stated time and the average power and time is what he told Kendall and all of us from the beginning. The only inconsistencies are in the average speed for the time does not compute to the distance and somehow, a computation of his gearing is not consistent, and his HR seems incredibly flat. Now why someone who is trying to make his power numbers look "better" would manipulate the speed numbers, when they cannot be used to compute the power, is beyond me.

In Reply To:

If you also have false ideas about how fast/strong you are, then you would be prone to starting way to hard and blowing up, which would make that file then even more difficult to doctor, since a 16% spike at the beginning would reveal inconsistencies in your critical power for shorter duration efforts.

So, how easy do you NOW think it is to fake a file that says that you climbed 8+km in ~29:00 at a power of 355 watts? Not so easy...

It would be incredibly easy, without changing one other thing in the file and no one would be able to know. Earlier in this thread it was determined that for this distance and his weight at the time that the power number of 355 was reasonable. Here is what Rappster wrote in post 53 of this thread:

" http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Putting in your total weight as 83kg, this gives a time of 29:09 for the climb (8800m @ 7.8% grade), using the stock CdA. So pretty much exactly what you rode.

The big difference is that your weight is 70kg, as opposed to 62kg, or even 64kg, which is what had been presented here. 5.11w/kg is vastly different from 5.77w/kg (same power if you weighed 62kg). At a weight of 70kg, your power numbers make a lot of sense."

So, the distance and the power data in the file compute with the climb and what he reported at the time but there is something wrong with the speed data. It is not easy to explain but it is the data. You can presume he is lying if you choose or you can presume there might be another explanation for the inconsistency.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [ In reply to ]

House

Nov 21, 07 8:44

Post #213 of 544 Views: 14790

You know I read the first couple of pages when this thread started and then saw it devolve into the typical "Frank vs. Everyone Who Does Not Claim PC's Are God's Gift To Us" thread so i stopped reading it, but these last few pages have been gold. It's like being sucked into a tv show that starts out good, becomes predictable and then throws a tasty new plot line in. Thanks!

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [House] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:47

Post #214 of 544 Views: 14783

I agree, this is very entertaining, you're all making my 1/2 day at work much more enjoyable!!

Happy Thanksgiving to me...

------------------------------------------------
Ann Arbor Triathlon Club

Follow me on Twitter

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:55

Post #215 of 544 Views: 14770

In Reply To:

The only inconsistencies are in the average speed for the time does not compute to the distance

I'd say the fact that much of the file has clearly been faked by copying and pasting the same numbers over and over again is much more damning.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 8:59

Post #216 of 544 Views: 14760

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The data have very obviously been manipulated.

I agree. The question is, who manipulated them?

Bear Grylls?

I think Joaquin is the Bear Grylls of ST.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:01

Post #217 of 544 Views: 14756

In Reply To:

It would be incredibly easy, without changing one other thing in the file and no one would be able to know.

You keep saying this...but it doesn't make it true. It is actually very DIFFICULT to fake a power file that wouldn't be detectable, especially for a case such as this with a given distance, elevation, and mass.

In Reply To:

So, the distance and the power data in the file compute with the climb and what he reported at the time but there is something wrong with the speed data. It is not easy to explain but it is the data. You can presume he is lying if you choose or you can presume there might be another explanation for the inconsistency.

It is very easy to explain...it's been manipulated.

Think about this one. The speed measurements and distance measurements are taken from the same signal in the PT hub. The distance is calculated by counting how many pulses there are and multiplying by the entered wheel circumference and summing. The speed measurement counts the pulses and multiplies by the SAME wheel circumference and divides by 1.26s.

The ONLY way for both of those values to be inconsistent with each other is for the entered wheel circumference to be different for the calculation of the speed and the distance. This is impossible with the PT head unit.

So...either Joaquin has the ONLY PT head unit in existence that allows for a different wheel circumference setting for distance and speed and for some reason he's set them different...OR, the file has been faked.

Which is more likely? Hmmm???

Your lack of critical thinking about this is really shedding a bad light on any claims/speculations you make about your product.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:06

Post #218 of 544 Views: 14750

In Reply To:

clearly bogus data. Reminds me of a similar juvenile attempt with a fabricated "NP Buster" file on the old topica wattage list ;-)

Hope you ain't referring to mine!

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:28

Post #219 of 544 Views: 14702

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[reply]
Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file. I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file..[/reply]

Actually, it would be. If you jacked up each number by 16%, you'd have a significant jump in your VI, due to the way that Pnorm is calculated. Climbing is a very low VI effort. So if you bumped every number up 16%, you'd change that quite a bit. You'd also have glaring inconsistencies in your speed/power numbers. And you'd also be able to pick up problems in the related gear ratios.

Could you explain these "glaring inconsistencies" in the speed/power numbers again. That might be true on the flat where speed and power are somewhat related but when climbing the highest powers can occur at the lowest speeds due to the effect of gradient. Since this effort was 100% climb such a "glaring inconsistency" is cannot be apparent from this or any file.

In Reply To:

All of this is assuming you actually paced the effort correctly and went the actual distance.

That is where the problem comes in. You not only told people how much power you could output (which is not that hard to fake), but you also told people how fast you went, and how long the climb was. Manipulating THIS data is not that easy.

If it was just about holding X watts for Y minutes, then sure that is not that hard to fake. But faking a complete file, with time, speed, distance, etc. is not easy at all and cannot be done via the method you suggest.

Well, the file shows he went the "correct" distance in the stated time and the average power and time is what he told Kendall and all of us from the beginning. The only inconsistencies are in the average speed for the time does not compute to the distance and somehow, a computation of his gearing is not consistent, and his HR seems incredibly flat. Now why someone who is trying to make his power numbers look "better" would manipulate the speed numbers, when they cannot be used to compute the power, is beyond me.

In Reply To:

If you also have false ideas about how fast/strong you are, then you would be prone to starting way to hard and blowing up, which would make that file then even more difficult to doctor, since a 16% spike at the beginning would reveal inconsistencies in your critical power for shorter duration efforts.

So, how easy do you NOW think it is to fake a file that says that you climbed 8+km in ~29:00 at a power of 355 watts? Not so easy...

It would be incredibly easy, without changing one other thing in the file and no one would be able to know. Earlier in this thread it was determined that for this distance and his weight at the time that the power number of 355 was reasonable. Here is what Rappster wrote in post 53 of this thread:

" http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Putting in your total weight as 83kg, this gives a time of 29:09 for the climb (8800m @ 7.8% grade), using the stock CdA. So pretty much exactly what you rode.

The big difference is that your weight is 70kg, as opposed to 62kg, or even 64kg, which is what had been presented here. 5.11w/kg is vastly different from 5.77w/kg (same power if you weighed 62kg). At a weight of 70kg, your power numbers make a lot of sense."

So, the distance and the power data in the file compute with the climb and what he reported at the time but there is something wrong with the speed data. It is not easy to explain but it is the data. You can presume he is lying if you choose or you can presume there might be another explanation for the inconsistency.

1. There are no glaring inconsistencies. I said there would be glaring inconsistencies IF YOU CHANGED ONLY THE POWER NUMBERS BY 16%. THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS DONE TO THIS FILE. DOES IT MAKE IT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPS SINCE YOU SEEM TO HAVE TROUBLE WITH BASIC COMPREHENSION OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE WRITING.

2. THE FILE DOES NOT SHOW THE CORRECT DISTANCE IN THE CORRECT TIME. IT SHOWS A GLARING ERROR BETWEEN THE speed*time DISTANCE AND THE distance-recorded DISTANCE. THAT IS THE MOST DAMNING BIT OF EVIDENCE, SINCE THAT PROBLEM DOESN'T SHOW UP ANYWHERE ELSE.

3. "Now why someone who is trying to make his power numbers look "better" would manipulate the speed numbers, when they cannot be used to compute the power, is beyond me." BECAUSE THE CLIMB IS A KNOWN DISTANCE AND DURATION. IF HE DID THE CLIMB IN 35:00, THEN IT WOULD BE OBVIOUS HIS POWER WASN'T 355, SINCE THAT WOULD BE ABSURDLY SLOW.

4. " It would be incredibly easy, without changing one other thing in the file and no one would be able to know. Earlier in this thread it was determined that for this distance and his weight at the time that the power number of 355 was reasonable. Here is what Rappster wrote in post 53 of this thread: " EXACTLY. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. IN ORDER TO LIE ABOUT POWER OVER A GIVEN CLIMB, YOU NEED TO FUDGE THE POWER AND THE SPEED (OR THE DISTANCE).

Simply put, Frank, you just don't get it. It really does take a certain amount of power to make it up La Morcuera in 29:00. So if you are trying to fake a climb up La Morcuera, then you need to fake power and speed (or power and distance/time). The point was not simply to make a file that showed a 30min effort @ 355w, which would easier (though still not easy) to fake. It was to show a climb up La Morceura at a given pace (i.e. a given time for the distance) and a given power.

You just don't get it. Everything about the file is wrong. If it only took 300 watts to climb La Morcuera in 29:00, then yes, you could simply bump the power number up and get the file you were looking for. But, since it takes more power than that, you can't simply modify the power numbers.

Let's make it simple. I go ride a 40k TT. It takes me 60min at 300watts. I lie and tell everyone I did it in 53:00 at 375watts. I can't just bump up the power number from my file. \

EVERYTHING IS WRONG. That is what you don't get. The only reason the file says he climbed 8.whatever km in 29:whatever is because someone changed it to say that. They had to change everything, because no part of the file supported the claim that is being made.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THE FILE FOR THE CLIMB IS FALSE. Given that the rest of the file is totally normal, that implies that someone doctored the file.

IS THIS CLEAR???????????????????????????????????????

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:29

Post #220 of 544 Views: 14701

In Reply To:

I am trying to remember, Chad, or Dev or anyone else who has used PC's over time, have you seen any real
bike time improvements?

Ummm, yeah....

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [House] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:34

Post #221 of 544 Views: 14682

Agreed. When H2Ofun wandered in, I was reminded of Flounder walking into Delta House.
.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:37

Post #222 of 544 Views: 14671

My eyes hurt...

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [HH] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:37

Post #223 of 544 Views: 14670

"...you guys playing cards?"

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:38

Post #224 of 544 Views: 14668

ken,
no certainly not. I haven't got time to track it down today but, unless this is deja vu all over again :-), I feel something similiar happened 2-3-4-5 years ago there.

it probably was not as stoopid as this one though. is there a PowerCranks hall of fame??

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [HH] [ In reply to ]

House

Nov 21, 07 9:42

Post #225 of 544 Views: 14654

In Reply To:

Agreed. When H2Ofun wandered in, I was reminded of Flounder walking into Delta House.
.

Had nothing to do with H2oFun, it was watching Frank tilting at windmills.

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:51

Post #226 of 544 Views: 13571

My brain hurts...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 9:59

Post #227 of 544 Views: 13554

Let me know if this is correct:
From the file: distance of climb = 8.76km, Ave speed of climb = 21.089, total time of climb = 28.62 minutes.
The ave speed multiplied by time = 10.06km traveled.

this is the main problem

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:00

Post #228 of 544 Views: 13552

toga...toga...toga...toooga! tooooooga! TOOOOOOGAAAAA!!!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [the metazoan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:01

Post #229 of 544 Views: 13549

In Reply To:

Let me know if this is correct:
From the file: distance of climb = 8.76km, Ave speed of climb = 21.089, total time of climb = 28.62 minutes.
The ave speed multiplied by time = 10.06km traveled.

this is the main problem

Yes. Though it is just one of a host of very significant problems, such as the virtually metronomic heartrate, perfectly identical data blocks, and others.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [House] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:01

Post #230 of 544 Views: 13546

I just smiled. Smile

Smile

I have to admit, this thread has been interesting. And when the guy never answered the question directly about the file
did not feel right.

As I said from the beginning, I love to try new stuff, even when ST says it can not help me. Folks like Chad and Dev would not have
used, or continue to use if they felt they had no positive benefits. So, only one way for me to find out if they might help ME, and that
is to make an off season commitment. I still strongly believe they have helped my run, as others have stated.

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?
I assume there is a good reason, so I just get one legged drills, 2 at a time, all the time on the PC's.

I guess not matter what happens with my run times, or race results, there is no way to "prove" if the PC's will have helped or hurt me.
But, I have to admit, they are fun to use. And, I would never use something if I felt they were hurting me or my race performance.
Less than 3 months to the Bearathon, with its killer hills. Will see what happens, assuming it is not raining.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:06

Post #231 of 544 Views: 13530

why is it always "I, I, I, I, I" with you.

This is an entertaining post about a guy who provided a power file that has been fudged. It's not about you! It's not even really about powercranks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:11

Post #232 of 544 Views: 13524

In Reply To:

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?
I assume there is a good reason, so I just get one legged drills, 2 at a time, all the time on the PC's.

Sometimes in the pool, I use a pull buoy, or paddles, or a kickboard, or fins, or I do stroke drills. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

Sometimes when I run, I do high knees, or butt kickers, or pull backs, or shuttles. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:11

Post #233 of 544 Views: 13524

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Let me know if this is correct:
From the file: distance of climb = 8.76km, Ave speed of climb = 21.089, total time of climb = 28.62 minutes.
The ave speed multiplied by time = 10.06km traveled.

this is the main problem

Yes. Though it is just one of a host of very significant problems, such as the virtually metronomic heartrate, perfectly identical data blocks, and others.

Yeah, that's kinda the biggie for me. Having used a Power Tap since it was owned by Tune, I've seen some funny stuff: mid interval torque drifts, wacky interference blips, an incidence where the torque drifted up--and then back down!?! during an event. Here's what I've never seen--identical, repeating blocks of data.

Of course, there could be some special firmware update of which I (nor anyone else) is not aware--you know, the one where the Power Tap continually writes blocks of stored data when it experiences interference..... Maybe he was riding in a convergence zone? (that's unlikely, I live in one, and I've yet to experience this phenomena).

I'm waiting for Frank to put forward some alternative theories.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:14

Post #234 of 544 Views: 13511

In Reply To:

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?

Don't believe everything you read, maybe? I know plenty of elite cyclists, and I've never seen any of them do a one legged drill (except when they're making fun of someone doing one-legged drills, that is....)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:19

Post #235 of 544 Views: 13492

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?

Don't believe everything you read, maybe? I know plenty of elite cyclists, and I've never seen any of them do a one legged drill (except when they're making fun of someone doing one-legged drills, that is....)

"Necessary? Is it *necessary* that should drink my own urine? No, but I do it anyway, because it's sterile, and I like the taste." - Patches McHoulihan (Dodgeball)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:33

Post #236 of 544 Views: 13462

i know you are really clever guys, with plenty of time, and know a lot more about computers and PT files than me. but this makes you ignorant. i will tell you what i would have done if I wanted to impress a buntch of nick names in a foreign forum thread: i would ask one of my team mates who is stronger than me to ride up La Morcuera with my PT and send you his file stating it was mine. simple, eh?
one quextion for you: is it possible to manipulate data stored in the PT CPU?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

House

Nov 21, 07 10:38

Post #237 of 544 Views: 13450

In Reply To:

i know you are really clever guys, with plenty of time, and know a lot more about computers and PT files than me. but this makes you ignorant. i will tell you what i would have done if I wanted to impress a buntch of nick names in a foreign forum thread: i would ask one of my team mates who is stronger than me to ride up La Morcuera with my PT and send you his file stating it was mine. simple, eh?
one quextion for you: is it possible to manipulate data stored in the PT CPU?

Woah, there fella. From what I have read most people have gone out of their way to not say that you fudged the data, simply that it was fudged somewhere along the way. No need to get all fired up. In answer to your question, it appears that your question has been answered a number of times before you asked it.

My question for you: What are your thoughts about the data issues brought up in this thread?

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:40

Post #238 of 544 Views: 13448

In Reply To:

i know you are really clever guys, with plenty of time, and know a lot more about computers and PT files than me. but this makes you ignorant. i will tell you what i would have done if I wanted to impress a buntch of nick names in a foreign forum thread: i would ask one of my team mates who is stronger than me to ride up La Morcuera with my PT and send you his file stating it was mine. simple, eh?
one quextion for you: is it possible to manipulate data stored in the PT CPU?

Hindsight's 20/20, huh? Here's a key piece of advice: When you find yourself in a hole...stop digging.

So...given all the info that has come out about your file, what legitimate alternative explanation can you provide for why the file is the way it is?

Also, you weren't just trying to impress a bunch of anonymous nicknames. There are some non-anonymous and well-known names that you were trying to impress as well.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:44

Post #239 of 544 Views: 13435

i have no idea of who you are suggesting?please speak for yourself. over here you are all absolutelly unknown for me (except Kendall)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

House

Nov 21, 07 10:48

Post #240 of 544 Views: 13421

In Reply To:

i have no idea of who you are suggesting?please speak for yourself. over here you are all absolutelly unknown for me (except Kendall)

Perhaps you missed my post, with a question for you it's the one above Tom A's post that you just responded to.

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [House] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:55

Post #241 of 544 Views: 13404

i am not following the thread. i just reply the posts sent to me. i understand that some people think the file has been manipulated. i have no idea why the file looks wrong. i can only say that the file is for different rides and that the unit and hub got wet, and i have experienced many problems with my PT when it rains. i have sent three times the CPU to saris to be fixed, two times the hub (the last time a few days before the ride) and changed once the chest band. in fact kendall told me his CPU was also broken.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

House

Nov 21, 07 10:57

Post #242 of 544 Views: 13399

In Reply To:

i am not following the thread. i just reply the posts sent to me. i understand that some people think the file has been manipulated. i have no idea why the file looks wrong. i can only say that the file is for different rides and that the unit and hub got wet, and i have experienced many problems with my PT when it rains. i have sent three times the CPU to saris to be fixed, two times the hub (the last time a few days before the ride) and changed once the chest band. in fact kendall told me his CPU was also broken.

Two things:

1) So you have no comment on the very specific things mentioned? Not even something like "yes that does seem weird, perhaps this data is wrong."

2) Now, after all this info comes out we find out that you have been having issues with your PT and it was wet and the file is actually for different rides? Seems a bit odd...timing wise.

______________________________________________________

Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [the metazoan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 10:58

Post #243 of 544 Views: 13398

yes that would be a problem if the data were really that downloaded from the PT. Clearly, however, it's a pile of crudely fabricated data.

Geez, has no one heard of a random number generator or superimposed signal noise?

This is truly hilarious!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:00

Post #244 of 544 Views: 13383

PowerCranks must generate their very own Bermuda Triangle: things break, disappear, and/or or magically generate themselves ...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:09

Post #245 of 544 Views: 13359

In Reply To:

i have no idea why the file looks wrong.

...which then begs the question, who has had access to the file prior to its circulation? One of your kids been messing with your computer, perhaps? ;-)

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Nov 21, 07 11:10

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:19

Post #246 of 544 Views: 13336

Joaquin,

Really, there are only a couple of possible explanations for the data set posted here:

1 - you manipulated/doctored the file

2 - someone else manipulated/doctored the file

3 - you have a bizarrely malfunctioning pm that produces completely unreliable data in a way that is remarkably consistant with a crude attempt at manipulating/doctoring said data, and by some incredibly strange coincidence this malfunction only seems to occur during a very select percentage of the time spent using the unit, and as a result creates data that to a very cursory examination would support - almost perfectly - claims made earlier, by you.

That's really about the limit of where this conversation can go. The data you have provided is not supportive of your/Frank's claims - again - and is highly suggestive of a crude attempt at falsification.

If you wish to restore any semblance of credibility in this matter, frankly the onus is upon you to provide an explanation that does not lead an impartial observer to the unfortunate conclusion that - lex parsimoniae - you "cooked the books."

I wish you luck in this; I would hate to think that you felt compelled to go to such lengths to "defend" yourself on an internet forum, and welcome whole-heartedly your forthcoming alternate explanation...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:19

Post #247 of 544 Views: 13334

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

i have no idea why the file looks wrong.

...which then begs the question, who has had access to the file prior to its circulation? One of your kids been messing with your computer, perhaps? ;-)

Perhaps it was these guys??

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:35

Post #248 of 544 Views: 13296

i am not claiming anything and never did. i didn't even know that kendall started this thread. i just gave him my PT readings. I had completelly forgot the ST forum when I rode with him. i t was him who invited me to test myself al la morcuera. if the data is wrong, then the unit is wrong. I told Frank in a private message (never here) that I thought i could beat my PB at la morcuera and ride above 350 Watts.
if anybody is ready to exchange a PT CPU for mine I will be happy to do so. the data is still inside it. and i guess the CPU cannot be manipulated. so any of you clever people analyze it.

if i just do 330 watts up la morcuera or 370 watt on a different powermeter, who cares?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:40

Post #249 of 544 Views: 13285

[reply]
PowerCranks must generate their very own Bermuda Triangle: things break, disappear, and/or or magically generate themselves ...[/reply]
The thing that concerns me most is that it was incredibly easy to notice there was something wrong with the data from first glance. I guess physicians don't learn to think critically. As a doctor myself, but of the engineering Ph.D. variety, I have learned how to interpret data, look at what it is and isn't telling me, and when it's flat out wrong (i.e., data acquisition issue, test setup problems, etc).

The "can't be a scientist because I am a physician" moniker is certainly right. A "scientist" would have caught this problem at first sight.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:44

Post #250 of 544 Views: 13270

"if anybody is ready to exchange a PT CPU for mine I will be happy to do so. the data is still inside it. and i guess the CPU cannot be manipulated. so any of you clever people analyze it. "

You got it. PM me, and I will get you shipping info. I have several head units floating around, and would have no problem trading you one to get at the raw data...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 11:48

Post #251 of 544 Views: 13137

In Reply To:

"if anybody is ready to exchange a PT CPU for mine I will be happy to do so. the data is still inside it. and i guess the CPU cannot be manipulated. so any of you clever people analyze it. "

You got it. PM me, and I will get you shipping info. I have several head units floating around, and would have no problem trading you one to get at the raw data...

.

Would anyone like to take bets on whether or not you'll receive the head unit with a mysteriously dead battery?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 12:04

Post #252 of 544 Views: 13100

In Reply To:

"...you guys playing cards?"

.

Thank you. Thank you. I couldn't quite remember the scene.
.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 12:35

Post #253 of 544 Views: 13048

So, another option. He has made the offer to ride with anyone. And, he has said folks have not shown up.
So, is there not one ST person who can meet him, do the hill, have a SRM, PT, or whatever, and
lets give the benefit of the doubt? Seems a lot better than getting his PT sent over.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 12:37

Post #254 of 544 Views: 13044

In Reply To:

Would anyone like to take bets on whether or not you'll receive the head unit with a mysteriously dead battery?[/reply]
My money's on an EMP shockwave frying the CPU.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 12:51

Post #255 of 544 Views: 13021

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

OK, let us be Miss marple or Sherlock Holmes and deduce what happened here. You ride up La Morcuera and, to your dismay, get home and find out the PT file only shows you averaging 300 watts yet you everyone you averaged 350 watts. But, you want everyone to believe you did 350 watts and youhave promised them the file. What would you do?

1. Take the spreadsheet and increase each power number 16% which would give you the power numbers you have been telling everyone?

That still would have been caught by Robert. I'm not going to explain how, since that would make it easier for someone to attempt to fake another file in the future, but anyone familiar with all the types of analyses possible with a power file would figure it out...

In Reply To:

2. Take the spreadsheet and manually change the 1600 power, torque, speed, and HR numbers (in lieu of a 16% straight substitution done by the computer which would keep all the normal variation intact and make it not possible to find any patterns in the numbers proving this inartful manipulation), leaving the distance numbers alone.

People do stranger (dumber?) things every day...

In Reply To:

Thanks for letting me know how the PT works. Except you forgot to say whether the power measurement comes from peak, average or minimal torque during the period and peak, average, or minimal velocity during the period. Do you know? How it works could make a difference in evaluating and possibly explaining these inconsistencies without a need to invoke nefarious intent.

The PT takes an average of the previous 1.26s for all values and saves them. That fact makes no difference in how this file is being evaluated.

In Reply To:

Hey, I am not so sure that anyone here is "out to get me" as this file is not mine. However, I wonder about the rush to accept nefarious intent here because of some inconsistencies in the file.

SOME inconsistencies???? The WHOLE thing is inconsistent. Frank, your sounding a tad bit delusional here...
The ONLY things consistent with your distorted view of the situation is average power, the elapsed time, and the distance. The problem (for you and the liar) is that the physics of the situation and the other data in the file allows for a cross-check with reality. This file fails that check miserably.

In Reply To:

I accept there are some inconsistencies I cannot explain (especially the speed/distance issue and a HR profile that looks "strange") but I do not accept that this is evidence that Joaquin deliberately manipulated the file to make himself look better than he is. If I wanted to change a PT file to look better than I am I would simply change the torque and power numbers by a set percentage across the board and leave everything else alone. This would be undetectable using all the methods you folks have used to examine this file.

As I said above, that type of manipulation is actually possible to detect and Robert would have found it if that is what had happened. You'd have to try harder than that.
The funny thing is, that he didn't even need to go into that much depth of analysis...this fake was so sloppy, it basically screams out at you that it is fake.

I think the better term would be to say the file is corrupted. It is possible it is corrupted because it was manipulated but, I suspect, it is possible there are other possibilities also. People seem to accept that the cadence data can be extremely flawed but that all these other numbers are inviolate. So be it.

Because the HR data seems flawed also I am putting my money on a problem with the PT for now. It is what makes the most sense to me, unless someone can come up with a plausible reason (or a witness) as to why Joaquin would care to do this.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:02

Post #256 of 544 Views: 12987

In Reply To:

I think the better term would be to say the file is corrupted. It is possible it is corrupted because it was manipulated but, I suspect, it is possible there are other possibilities also. People seem to accept that the cadence data can be extremely flawed but that all these other numbers are inviolate. So be it.

Because the HR data seems flawed also I am putting my money on a problem with the PT for now. It is what makes the most sense to me, unless someone can come up with a plausible reason (or a witness) as to why Joaquin would care to do this.[/reply]The numbers aren't inviolate, but when a Power Tap has 'problems', the problems are very, very predictable. The problems manifest themselves as data drop outs, not repeating cyclical patterns of numbers (if you want an example of a PT file experiencing rain-related data drops, I can gladly send you one so you can look at the raw data to get an idea of how the problems manifest themselves).

That the problems would manifest themselves in a way that would, by complete coincidence, mimic a desired result--and do so in the manner that they have (repeated numerical patterns) is, in a word, unbelievable.

I'd be curious to see what a representative of Power Tap would have to say about the file?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:05

Post #257 of 544 Views: 12975

In Reply To:

Because the HR data seems flawed also I am putting my money on a problem with the PT for now.

I'm putting my money on the fact that someone just cut-and-pasted entire blocks of data in the .csv file, thus inflating the average speed and power but also resulting in the repeating sequences for speed, torque, power, AND heart rate. But hey, I'm only a scientist, not a physician, so what do I know about interpreting data? ;-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:09

Post #258 of 544 Views: 12965

The simplest explanation for what happened is that the file was doctored. Anything else would have to involve a series of fantastically unlikely coincidences. Wouldn't you agree that the most likely explanation is that the file was tampered with?

The following point has already been made, but you've thus far failed to address it. If this were, as you suggest, the result of a malfunctioning PT, what are the odds that:

1. Only the data relating to the climb in question were affected by the malfunction; and
2. The data were affected in such a way as to exactly support the claim made by the "victim" of the malfunction; and
3. The data were affected in a way that is consistent with a botched attempt to fake a PT file (e.g. repeating identical numerical sequences consistent with a "cut-and-paste" approach, etc)?

Seriously, ask yourself what the above question, and see if you still want to try to defend the position that it's just an innocent malfunction.

Last edited by: donm: Nov 21, 07 13:19

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:18

Post #259 of 544 Views: 12944

"So, is there not one ST person who can meet him, do the hill, have a SRM, PT, or whatever, and
lets give the benefit of the doubt? Seems a lot better than getting his PT sent over"

Seriously? Sending a tiny CPU for $15 via UPS seems HARDER than finding someone near him in Spain and changing out wheels/cranks/bottom brackets?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:20

Post #260 of 544 Views: 12937

In Reply To:

The simplest explanation for what happened is that the file was doctored.

Oh my f'-ing god....was THAT intentional?? DAMN funny. At least you didn't say "physicianed".

If that was intentional, man, you are now my hero.

Smelly

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:22

Post #261 of 544 Views: 12930

just to throw something else out there: what happens when one exceeds the recording memory of a PT CPU? Does it wrap around and start smoothly overwriting the start of the file or ... does it go haywire?

Still doesn't make the data "real" of course but it's another possibility (remote I'll admit).

Alternately, I'm thinking all PowerCrank "proof" rides occur in a Holodeck simulation and the computer got into a close to endless loop there :-)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:22

Post #262 of 544 Views: 12929

I am regretting ever starting this thread..although it has been entertaining. I took a look at the file and it definitely appears to have been modified. I say "modified", not "corrupted", because it's full of repeating identical data blocks in the section marked as interval 1. It's statistically unlikely, let's say, for this to occur as a result of data corruption. It's visually evident if you look at the file in CyclingPeaks.

The dumbest part of this whole thing is that neither I nor (I hope) Joaquin really set out to prove anything with this ride. I just wanted to ride a good climb, see if Joaquin was really as strong as he claimed. Power numbers from this, good or bad, wouldn't really show much of anything regarding the efficiency of PCs; it's just more anecdotal testimony.

I started the thread more for amusement value than anything else.

As Rappstar pointed out a few pages back, beating me up the climb doesn't prove any particular point other than that my watts/kg. is lower. A few facts remain:
1) I exist, ;-)
2) Joaquin easily beat me up the climb; his time would have had to be about what he says it was for him to have come back down and met me with about 2 kms remaining and climb back up with me (I reached the top in 42 minutes or so).

I ride with a couple of FL State Master's champions, former low level pros, and I believe Joaquin's at least as strong as these guys. It's a shame that this bogarted data file throws more doubt on him; Joaquin, I hope it wasn't your doing.

To paraphrase Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that". I'm going to cook Thanksgiving desserts now and get ready to ride 85 miles to my sister's house for Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow.

Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:26

Post #263 of 544 Views: 12912

In Reply To:

just to throw something else out there: what happens when one exceeds the recording memory of a PT CPU? Does it wrap around and start smoothly overwriting the start of the file or ... does it go haywire?

Well, really neither. That is, it will overwrite older data with newer data, but it doesn't wrap around and smoothly do so from the beginning. (OTOH, it never repeats entire blocks of data, either.)

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Nov 21, 07 13:28

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:27

Post #264 of 544 Views: 12906

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Because the HR data seems flawed also I am putting my money on a problem with the PT for now.

I'm putting my money on the fact that someone just cut-and-pasted entire blocks of data in the .csv file, thus inflating the average speed and power but also resulting in the repeating sequences for speed, torque, power, AND heart rate. But hey, I'm only a scientist, not a physician, so what do I know about interpreting data? ;-)

Well, that would be a pretty good guess given the following sequence:

6:21:36

352 180 14.9
366 180 14.5
437 180 14.4
425 180 14.5
402 180 14.6
440 180 14.6
417 180 14.4

Then at 6:23:35--the exact same sequence. That particular power pattern is repeated at last 8 times (and I stopped counting after that).

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:28

Post #265 of 544 Views: 12905

could that have happened here then?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Paul Smeulders] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:31

Post #266 of 544 Views: 12898

Man...now I really wish it was intentional.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:32

Post #267 of 544 Views: 12896

In Reply To:

just to throw something else out there: what happens when one exceeds the recording memory of a PT CPU? Does it wrap around and start smoothly overwriting the start of the file or ... does it go haywire?

Still doesn't make the data "real" of course but it's another possibility (remote I'll admit).

Alternately, I'm thinking all PowerCrank "proof" rides occur in a Holodeck simulation and the computer got into a close to endless loop there :-)

That's funny--I was fully expecting Frank to quickly jump on that one! It doesn't matter, since the data is time stamped and he was at only 6:20 or something on the clock. But, to answer your question, it starts writing over the data at the beginning of the file.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:49

Post #268 of 544 Views: 12857

"So far, I have no "data" that says I am faster or stronger on the bike because of PC's"

Don't you have a Computrainer? With you spreadsheets logging your miles, I find it hard to believe you have NO data pre-PC's on the Computrainer vs. post-PC's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 13:53

Post #269 of 544 Views: 12851

I'm wondering if it would have helped the results if they had shaved their legs with Occam's razor instead of something like Gillette. :)

-Jot

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:05

Post #270 of 544 Views: 12824

In Reply To:

I think the better term would be to say the file is corrupted.

"Better" in you own mind perhaps to help quell some of the cognitive dissonance going on in there...but the more accurate terms are manipulated, or, simply faked.

I just "calls 'em as I sees 'em".

In Reply To:

It is possible it is corrupted because it was manipulated but, I suspect, it is possible there are other possibilities also.

Hmmm...are these "possible other possibilities" somehow related to the "unknown unknowns" that Mr. Rumsfeld talked about one time? Just wondering...

In Reply To:

People seem to accept that the cadence data can be extremely flawed but that all these other numbers are inviolate. So be it.

Correct...and that's because cadence isn't used in the calculation of ANY of the other values. In fact, I normally don't even install the cadence pickup on my PT equipped bikes. I don't care about cadence.

In Reply To:

Because the HR data seems flawed also I am putting my money on a problem with the PT for now. It is what makes the most sense to me, unless someone can come up with a plausible reason (or a witness) as to why Joaquin would care to do this.

Huh? The HR data is also fudged, so that means it's a problem with the PT? Wow...you really are grasping at straws, huh? If that is what makes the most sense to you, then I was wrong before about you appearing delusional. Actually, you are.

You're looking for a plausible reason for why he would do this? That's easy...how about simple entertainment value? People do odd things on the internet just for entertainment.

Frank, it's time to move beyond the "denial" stage and move into "anger". That will get you to "acceptance" just that much quicker.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:07

Post #271 of 544 Views: 12823

In Reply To:

"So far, I have no "data" that says I am faster or stronger on the bike because of PC's"

Don't you have a Computrainer? With you spreadsheets logging your miles, I find it hard to believe you have NO data pre-PC's on the Computrainer vs. post-PC's.

Isn't that a funny thing about PCs? There's never any actual "before and after" power data to back up the claims....interesting.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:17

Post #272 of 544 Views: 12808

In Reply To:

So, another option. He has made the offer to ride with anyone. And, he has said folks have not shown up.
So, is there not one ST person who can meet him, do the hill, have a SRM, PT, or whatever, and
lets give the benefit of the doubt? Seems a lot better than getting his PT sent over.

Dave

I'm sorry...but IMO he's used up all of his "benefit of the doubt".

It's all a hoax.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof...and all we've ever seen in this whole fiasco is extraordinary hubris.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:18

Post #273 of 544 Views: 12807

Tom, your logic is really getting in the way of my ST.com Soap Opera drama. :)

______________
HEDmafia.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [cslone] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:33

Post #274 of 544 Views: 12776

In Reply To:

Tom, your logic is really getting in the way of my ST.com Soap Opera drama. :)

Don't you mean comic opera? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:48

Post #275 of 544 Views: 12755

Yes, that too.

There you go again, letting your personal dislike for me get in the way. :)

______________
HEDmafia.com

Last edited by: cslone: Nov 21, 07 14:49

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:50

Post #276 of 544 Views: 13647

In Reply To:

1. There are no glaring inconsistencies. I said there would be glaring inconsistencies IF YOU CHANGED ONLY THE POWER NUMBERS BY 16%. THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS DONE TO THIS FILE. DOES IT MAKE IT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPS SINCE YOU SEEM TO HAVE TROUBLE WITH BASIC COMPREHENSION OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE WRITING.

2. THE FILE DOES NOT SHOW THE CORRECT DISTANCE IN THE CORRECT TIME. IT SHOWS A GLARING ERROR BETWEEN THE speed*time DISTANCE AND THE distance-recorded DISTANCE. THAT IS THE MOST DAMNING BIT OF EVIDENCE, SINCE THAT PROBLEM DOESN'T SHOW UP ANYWHERE ELSE.

3. "Now why someone who is trying to make his power numbers look "better" would manipulate the speed numbers, when they cannot be used to compute the power, is beyond me." BECAUSE THE CLIMB IS A KNOWN DISTANCE AND DURATION. IF HE DID THE CLIMB IN 35:00, THEN IT WOULD BE OBVIOUS HIS POWER WASN'T 355, SINCE THAT WOULD BE ABSURDLY SLOW.

4. " It would be incredibly easy, without changing one other thing in the file and no one would be able to know. Earlier in this thread it was determined that for this distance and his weight at the time that the power number of 355 was reasonable. Here is what Rappster wrote in post 53 of this thread: " EXACTLY. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. IN ORDER TO LIE ABOUT POWER OVER A GIVEN CLIMB, YOU NEED TO FUDGE THE POWER AND THE SPEED (OR THE DISTANCE).

Simply put, Frank, you just don't get it. It really does take a certain amount of power to make it up La Morcuera in 29:00. So if you are trying to fake a climb up La Morcuera, then you need to fake power and speed (or power and distance/time). The point was not simply to make a file that showed a 30min effort @ 355w, which would easier (though still not easy) to fake. It was to show a climb up La Morceura at a given pace (i.e. a given time for the distance) and a given power.

Look at the file. Column A is minutes, B torque, C speed, D watts, E distance, F cadence, and G HR. If you look at the data in columns A and E he did 8+ km in just over 29 minutes or something. If you go to analytic cycling and calculate the power required to do that on that climb at his stated weight on that day it turns out to be almost exactly what the average wattage was for this period found in column D. What is inconsistent is the data in column C, which says he actually went faster. To go faster would have required substantially more power than registered in column d. So, this problem with the data makes the data suspect but it does not indicate that Joaquin manipulated the data to make it look like he rode up the mountain faster than he did. It simply means the data is corrupted. If he manipulated it in such a fashion one would have to ask why because it is better than he is claiming.

In Reply To:

You just don't get it. Everything about the file is wrong. If it only took 300 watts to climb La Morcuera in 29:00, then yes, you could simply bump the power number up and get the file you were looking for. But, since it takes more power than that, you can't simply modify the power numbers.

Let's make it simple. I go ride a 40k TT. It takes me 60min at 300watts. I lie and tell everyone I did it in 53:00 at 375watts. I can't just bump up the power number from my file. \

You could bump up the power but it wouldn't change your time, it would simply make it look like you aren't very aero. There is no indication that the power numbers have been manipulated because they are confirmed by analyticcycling.com, assuming the weight and aerodynamic assumptions are correct

In Reply To:

EVERYTHING IS WRONG. That is what you don't get. The only reason the file says he climbed 8.whatever km in 29:whatever is because someone changed it to say that. They had to change everything, because no part of the file supported the claim that is being made.

No, some things are wrong. Everything is not wrong.

In Reply To:

EVERYTHING ABOUT THE FILE FOR THE CLIMB IS FALSE. Given that the rest of the file is totally normal, that implies that someone doctored the file.

IS THIS CLEAR???????????????????????????????????????

I have analyzed the file and everything is not abnormal in the climb data. If one takes the torque and multiplies it by the speed and then devides it by the wattage for each interval one gets a conversion factor. This is normally pretty close to 0.81 before the climb but there are instances of "substantial" deviation in this data as well, for instance time 0.273 has a ratio of .794 and time 2.604 has a ratio of .783 and time 3.528 has a ratio of .730. So, the numbers in the other parts of the file are not "totally normal" as you assert. However, during the climb this ratio is all over the place being sometimes over 1 and sometimes as low as .6. We know the speed numbers, on average are well off. But, they are off in a direction that would make his power numbers even higher than they are. We don't know about the other numbers. Well, as I stated above, it is not possible for some things in the file to be normal and EVERYTHING in the file to be false. There are inconsistencies in the data that do not make any sense. Therefore, this data should not be trusted. So, now you can choose to believe his time or not. I suspect I know what you will choose even though you were not there. Next time why don't you show up and climb with him, if you can, so you can expose him for the fraud you think he is. Kendall made his observation. You can make yours next time.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [KendallF] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 14:57

Post #277 of 544 Views: 13641

Thanks Kendall. It was also very nice for me to ride with you up La Morcuera. And I do also exist. Did you receive my file the same day we did the climb? Did you look at it? Is it the same data these people are discussing about? (I cannot open the file posted in the forum, since I do not have my Cycling Peaks software installed in my office computer)

Are you coming back in December to Madrid?

I hope to see you soon. Enjoy Thanksgiving!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:11

Post #278 of 544 Views: 13613

[reply]There is no indication that the power numbers have been manipulated because they are confirmed by analyticcycling.com, assuming the weight and aerodynamic assumptions are correct[/reply]

Of course there are indications that the power numbers have been manipulated. Along with the rest of the file. the number for analyticcycling may provide a reasonable approximation (assuming that the profile of the climb, rolling resistance, and whole host of other variables are correct). Power, speed, distance, and time have all been manipulated. I don't see why you fail to grasp this. That was my point about trying to fudge, for example, a 40k TT. You can't just change ONE set of parameters. You need to change power, and speed, and time. The problem is that faking all of this is very hard. It's hard to fake the file so that it all adds up. As you are seeing.

[reply]
Next time why don't you show up and climb with him, if you can, so you can expose him for the fraud you think he is. Kendall made his observation. You can make yours next time.[/reply]

Well, whenever I go do IM Lanzarote, which will be at some point in the next couple years, I'll be sure to add Madrid to my list of stopping points on the way home. Of course, if you want to start up a collection to fly me over to Spain, I'd be happy to race Joaquin up his climb. Or you can fly him out to Dan's, and I'll race him up to Wrightwood.

I also never accused Joaquin of being a fraud. I merely accused the file (if you can accuse an inanimate object, or collection of bytes) of being fraudulent. There are certainly plenty of indications that the file is deliberately fraudulent, rather than corrupted. But you keep ignoring them.

The problem is that, as you often seem to do, you are taking for granted that any of the claims made are true. There is no proof that Joaquin rode the whole climb in the time he specified. None. So why do you keep assuming that is a truism?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Nov 21, 07 15:13

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:16

Post #279 of 544 Views: 13601

First, some has suggested it would come back bad, who what would that give folks.

Second, I thought I heard Joaquin say there was at least one person who ALREADY is there, was supposed to meet
and ride, but never showed up.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:20

Post #280 of 544 Views: 13593

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?
I assume there is a good reason, so I just get one legged drills, 2 at a time, all the time on the PC's.

Sometimes in the pool, I use a pull buoy, or paddles, or a kickboard, or fins, or I do stroke drills. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

Sometimes when I run, I do high knees, or butt kickers, or pull backs, or shuttles. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

(playing the devil's advocate here....)

by comparing single leg drills with swimming and running drills, are you implying:

a) Single Leg Drills are valuable to use for drilling purposes but not for full time use
b) drilling is useful for swimming and running but not for cycling
b) drilling is useless but folks still do them anyway

note: My assumption that you agree with Dave in that PCs and single leg drills are essentially used for the same purpose (and hence PCs/Single leg drills are interchangeable above) could of course be wrong...

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:22

Post #281 of 544 Views: 13590

On my CT, I only road it Ergomode. Never kept data. I did notice I was getting my power up. When I first started, I was doing like 220.
Towards the end I was able to hold 270 for like 20 minutes. Thats as much as I remember.
Again, I have not seen anything to say I have or had gotten faster on the bike because of the PC's. Longer cranks on the hills, YEP.

Now, I just ran my 2.33 loop again. Just set another PB by 1 second. So, I am clearly seeing riding the PC's, with faster running, no question.
And, at my age, I will take it.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:24

Post #282 of 544 Views: 13582

I have to admit, I sure wish I had a PM starting a year ago when I changed the cranks, and now the PC's.
But, oh well, just have time data on the same course. Faster running. No real change on bike times.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:29

Post #283 of 544 Views: 13568

" First, some has suggested it would come back bad, who what would that give folks."

Huh? I don't understand this sentence.

"Second, I thought I heard Joaquin say there was at least one person who ALREADY is there, was supposed to meet and ride, but never showed up"

Who? Is this person there now? If not, then sending the CPU would be MUCH easier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:31

Post #284 of 544 Views: 13565

"No real change on bike times"

This is going in my sig line...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:41

Post #285 of 544 Views: 13542

What can I say, I am honest from what I have seen so far, and heard from some others.
But, you need to add more to your tag line, I HAVE seen real change in my run times, or do you
only take part of paragraphs?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:46

Post #286 of 544 Views: 13534

I quoted what you said ;-)

I'm just messing with you Dave, calm down.

And yes, I only quote parts of paragraphs from you, because a number of your sentences don't make sense.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:48

Post #287 of 544 Views: 13529

Hello Frank,

I am back home now. Almost time to go to bed. I have opened the file with Cycling Peaks and it certainly looks quite strange. Fortunatelly enough I keep all the data in the PT CPU since I have not cleared it yet. I think the best thing to do is sending the unit to Saris for them to check since I have already sent it to them three times before. It doesn't look like a corrupted file (during the race I did in August I experienced many data drops, which is not the case now). But the numbers look like the unit or the hub got crazy. Thats why I never take the PT data (or even the cateye or polar data) as reliable for my improvement. The best inidcator is the time it takes me climbing La Morcuera or my doctor's VO2 Max test.

I remember Kendall was coming back to Madrid before Christmast, and Alvaro, who I do not know, lives in Madrid. I have started training again on the bike and I was planning to do some hill climbs with my team in the next few weeks. I think that it won't be difficoult to meet Alvaro and Kendall with my teammates and do a climb altogether. I will agree with Alvaro the starting point and the finish line, so it fits exactly with La Morcuera gradient that is publicly available (which is from the centre of Miraflores town up to the La Morcuera sign stating 1.780 m above sea level). We can take a scale to weight ourselves and our bikes and equipment, and I will be sure to use a new chain, new tires, which will be inflated to 125 psi. And then take time, and calculate the Power. This is something cheap and feasible to do. And I guess it should be gathered as a real proof, as people over here like to say (I never wanted to proof anything to anybody, specially when almost nobody train with powermeters over here and none of my team mates know the meaning of climbing at 330 or 370 watts; they just know if they ride faster or not; a good Pro rider over here can do La Morcuera climb in about 25,5 minutes, and I guess Alvaro agees with what I say)

But even with all this, nobody here will believe the result. Still it will be a fun ride to do. But I will never again state anything here. If Alvaro or Kendall want to state the results it is up to them.

Joaquin

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:48

Post #288 of 544 Views: 13527

In Reply To:

The simplest explanation for what happened is that the file was doctored. Anything else would have to involve a series of fantastically unlikely coincidences. Wouldn't you agree that the most likely explanation is that the file was tampered with?

The following point has already been made, but you've thus far failed to address it. If this were, as you suggest, the result of a malfunctioning PT, what are the odds that:

1. Only the data relating to the climb in question were affected by the malfunction; and
2. The data were affected in such a way as to exactly support the claim made by the "victim" of the malfunction; and
3. The data were affected in a way that is consistent with a botched attempt to fake a PT file (e.g. repeating identical numerical sequences consistent with a "cut-and-paste" approach, etc)?

Seriously, ask yourself what the above question, and see if you still want to try to defend the position that it's just an innocent malfunction.

No, I disagree with your assertions. While 1 is essentially correct, similar problems exist throughout the file, they are only more frequent and larger during the climb.

Regarding #2, the errors are such to actually inflate the claims even greater than his claimed average of 358 watts. If he were to ride an extra 1 km in the same time with the same elevation gain his power most assuredly would be over 400 watts.

3. If this were an attempt to make a fake PT file it was indeed botched. However, the fact remains he did climb the mountain as witnessed by Kendall and the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 15:55

Post #289 of 544 Views: 13508

Did you actually look at the sections of the file that I posted earlier? Did you actually look at the raw data? Did you see the constant repeating patterns?

Your refusal to take a critical look at the file speaks volumes to the conformation bias that you exhibit with respect to every anecdote and piece of 'evidence' regarding your product. I think pretty much everyone here sees that except for you.

Since I know you're thinking about your argument/response before you even finish reading this sentence, I'd implore you to give pause and think a little more on the issue--and give some thought to the possibility that your own passion for your product clouds how you interpret things related to it.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:08

Post #290 of 544 Views: 13481

In Reply To:

Hello Frank,

I am back home now. Almost time to go to bed. I have opened the file with Cycling Peaks and it certainly looks quite strange. Fortunatelly enough I keep all the data in the PT CPU since I have not cleared it yet. I think the best thing to do is sending the unit to Saris for them to check since I have already sent it to them three times before. It doesn't look like a corrupted file (during the race I did in August I experienced many data drops, which is not the case now). But the numbers look like the unit or the hub got crazy. Thats why I never take the PT data (or even the cateye or polar data) as reliable for my improvement. The best inidcator is the time it takes me climbing La Morcuera or my doctor's VO2 Max test.

I remember Kendall was coming back to Madrid before Christmast, and Alvaro, who I do not know, lives in Madrid. I have started training again on the bike and I was planning to do some hill climbs with my team in the next few weeks. I think that it won't be difficoult to meet Alvaro and Kendall with my teammates and do a climb altogether. I will agree with Alvaro the starting point and the finish line, so it fits exactly with La Morcuera gradient that is publicly available (which is from the centre of Miraflores town up to the La Morcuera sign stating 1.780 m above sea level). We can take a scale to weight ourselves and our bikes and equipment, and I will be sure to use a new chain, new tires, which will be inflated to 125 psi. And then take time, and calculate the Power. This is something cheap and feasible to do. And I guess it should be gathered as a real proof, as people over here like to say (I never wanted to proof anything to anybody, specially when almost nobody train with powermeters over here and none of my team mates know the meaning of climbing at 330 or 370 watts; they just know if they ride faster or not; a good Pro rider over here can do La Morcuera climb in about 25,5 minutes, and I guess Alvaro agees with what I say)

But even with all this, nobody here will believe the result. Still it will be a fun ride to do. But I will never again state anything here. If Alvaro or Kendall want to state the results it is up to them.

Joaquin

If the only abnormality in your file were the HR, which looks much too regular and repeating for a biological system, I would have said there was some sort of electrical interference. Perhaps those other repeating sequences everyone seems fixated on as proof of a cut and paste manipulation are coming from the "same" electrical interference.

Someone asked here why I believe you. Well, I try to believe everything I am told unless I have a reason to not believe it. You have never given me a reason to not believe anything you have told me. The inconsistencies in this file are indeed strange but deliberate manipulation makes no sense.

Did I read your response to Kendall that you gave him a copy of the data file at the time you did the ride?

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:11

Post #291 of 544 Views: 13475

Thats fair.

Yes, my writing takes an engineers brain to understand. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:12

Post #292 of 544 Views: 13472

"I try to believe everything I am told unless I have a reason to not believe it"

That explains A LOT. You really aren't a scientist. Think if scientists really thought this way....we'd never learn ANYTHING.

"The inconsistencies in this file are indeed strange but deliberate manipulation makes no sense"

To you. It seems to make A LOT of sense to everyone else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:13

Post #293 of 544 Views: 13471

In Reply To:

Did you actually look at the sections of the file that I posted earlier? Did you actually look at the raw data? Did you see the constant repeating patterns?

Your refusal to take a critical look at the file speaks volumes to the conformation bias that you exhibit with respect to every anecdote and piece of 'evidence' regarding your product. I think pretty much everyone here sees that except for you.

Since I know you're thinking about your argument/response before you even finish reading this sentence, I'd implore you to give pause and think a little more on the issue--and give some thought to the possibility that your own passion for your product clouds how you interpret things related to it.

While repeating data could be from a cut and paste manipulation of a data file. It could also be from an electrical interference pattern from some repeating outside source when the data was collected. If one only fixes on one potential answer one may miss the correct answer. I don't know what happened to this file but deliberate manipulation and faking doesn't make much sense to me for already stated reasons.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [t2k] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:15

Post #294 of 544 Views: 13462

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Now, I continue to ask this question. I read all the time that folks should do one legged drills on the bike. So, what is the reason for this?
I assume there is a good reason, so I just get one legged drills, 2 at a time, all the time on the PC's.

Sometimes in the pool, I use a pull buoy, or paddles, or a kickboard, or fins, or I do stroke drills. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

Sometimes when I run, I do high knees, or butt kickers, or pull backs, or shuttles. Does that mean I should do them all the time?

(playing the devil's advocate here....)

by comparing single leg drills with swimming and running drills, are you implying:

a) Single Leg Drills are valuable to use for drilling purposes but not for full time use
b) drilling is useful for swimming and running but not for cycling
b) drilling is useless but folks still do them anyway

note: My assumption that you agree with Dave in that PCs and single leg drills are essentially used for the same purpose (and hence PCs/Single leg drills are interchangeable above) could of course be wrong...

No, I am challenging the assumption that it is good to do a drill "all the time," as you are forced to do with powercranks, which are constant "one-legged drills" (sort of).

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:17

Post #295 of 544 Views: 13452

Brandon, what would be cool is if someone took my data points from my bike loop and run course.
I can then say when I made changes on longer cranks and PC's. Then, the experts can see
if the data shows a change in control limits. I talked to our stats guy at work to do this with me,
but decided, why invest the effort when I would told all the data was messed with anyways. Smile

Smile

If someone wants to loan me a PMer, I would be willing to put it on the bike(s) and gather some PM data.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:20

Post #296 of 544 Views: 13450

[reply]
the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.[/reply]

You keep saying this, but this is not actually the case.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:21

Post #297 of 544 Views: 13449

In Reply To:

"I try to believe everything I am told unless I have a reason to not believe it"

That explains A LOT. You really aren't a scientist. Think if scientists really thought this way....we'd never learn ANYTHING.

"The inconsistencies in this file are indeed strange but deliberate manipulation makes no sense"

To you. It seems to make A LOT of sense to everyone else.

Well, as a physician, one is taught to listen to the patient. Medicine is both an art and a science. Sometimes the patient tells you the answer when the laboratory data is inconsistent if one will simply listen to what they are saying. Sometimes a patient will tell you they are in pain to get drugs. Other times they tell you they are in pain because they are in pain. There is no test for pain so what is a doctor to do. I chose to believe my patients and occasionally those who were lying would reveal themselves in other ways with time. Most, I believe, were telling the truth. The better doctors, I believe, tend to believe their patients although looking for secondary gain issues are always a possibility. That is the art of medicine, not the science. I see no secondary gain potential here to suggest lying is a reasonable possibility. Just my training I guess.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:23

Post #298 of 544 Views: 13449

In Reply To:

[reply]
the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.[/reply]

You keep saying this, but this is not actually the case.

It's not? What time does the file say it took him to cover the distance? Or, what is the time for interval 1 and what is the distance covered as logged (not as calculated by the average speed)?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:33

Post #299 of 544 Views: 13438

Thanks Frank.

Indeed if I had a reason to manipulate things (and spend all the time I would need to do so) I would surely chose a much simpler way as I suggested before: I would ask one of my teammates who are stronger than me, and let him my PT wheel, and send over his file.
Since I do not try to demonstrate anything, then there are inconsistncies. Because when someone wants o manipulate something for any purpose I think he would take care to do it in an unnoticeable way.

So again if someone witnesses a ride, or if I do a race, or if I send 2 years of PT files, or If I ride again with more witnesses, it doesn't matter. I am no one to advice you, but here, in this forum, I think you lose your time. None of my teammates who are now willing to use PowerCranks have ever heard of this forum at all. But the have all seen my improvements. And they do not now if my improvement was 10%, 20% or 40%; if it was my FTP, or my anaerobic power; they do not care. They just think the results they saw deserve trying Powercranks.

But people here are really crazy.

Joaquin

PS Kendall PM me and he said that neither he received the file the day I sent it out. But the file was probably the same. I told him the results I saw on my CPU when I met him after he finished the climb. Maybe the number were not right. I told you I thought that the weight difference was the explanation for the fact that even if my time was 1 minute off my PB my power was up.But maybe the power number was not right. But again 28 minutes 38 secs for La Morcuera during the off season is excellent for me (I used to ride up La Morcuera in 33-34 minutes during winter rides before). (Kendall told me his FTP was 280 Watts , and he did more than 40 minutes up La Morcuera, being his weight above 80 kilos.)

I am not peaking now for the racing season. I will do so in February/March. And I will take my time up La Morcuera then.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:48

Post #300 of 544 Views: 13402

A few points:

1. Joaquin isn't your "patient" and you're not treating him.
2. "Sometimes a patient will tell you they are in pain to get drugs". I don't think that applies here either
3. "I chose to believe my patients and occasionally those who were lying would reveal themselves in other ways with time". Which seems to be the case here.
4. "I see no secondary gain potential here to suggest lying is a reasonable possibility". There is our underlying problem. Someone "called out" Joaquin in a previous thread. If someone called me a "liar", even in jest, I'd want to prove them wrong. If I had made statements about how strong I was, and someone called me on those, I'd sure as hell want to prove them wrong and myself right. Now, in the off chance that I claimed I was stronger than I actually was, and someone called me a "liar" on that claim I'd be doing something, anything, to redeem myself.

Now, if your training leads you in the way you say, "I believe everything I am told unless I have a reason to not believe it" truly removes you from the possibility of being a scientist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:50

Post #301 of 544 Views: 12306

In Reply To:

I am not peaking now for the racing season. I will do so in February/March. And I will take my time up La Morcuera then.

Might I suggest that you do it without witnesses then tell me your time (or, whatever you would like it to be) and I will post it here. You know what they say, "any publicity is good publicity" :-)

Will keep PowerCranks on the front page while some of the folks here call you and me names. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 16:56

Post #302 of 544 Views: 12299

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[reply]
the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.[/reply]

You keep saying this, but this is not actually the case.

It's not? What time does the file say it took him to cover the distance? Or, what is the time for interval 1 and what is the distance covered as logged (not as calculated by the average speed)?

My point is that if the file is obviously corrupt or manipulated, you can't pick out one set of data and claim that it is accurate or uncorrupted. But I suppose it is a fool's errand to try and convince you of that. You have a pretty long track record of leaning on incomplete bits of data that support claims you want to make. If the data is junk, it is junk. You can't just take a part of it because you want to. The fact that one part of a corrupt data file matches up with a ballpark estimate from AnalyticCycling (made by me, of a climb I've never seen, and for which I was relying on 3rd hand information to profile) means nothing.

The data doesn't show what you hoped it would, because it is junk (either because of manipulation or corruption). Why can't you just simply say that and wait for the next PowerCranks wunderkind to come along?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 17:02

Post #303 of 544 Views: 12295

In Reply To:

A few points:

1. Joaquin isn't your "patient" and you're not treating him.
2. "Sometimes a patient will tell you they are in pain to get drugs". I don't think that applies here either
3. "I chose to believe my patients and occasionally those who were lying would reveal themselves in other ways with time". Which seems to be the case here.
4. "I see no secondary gain potential here to suggest lying is a reasonable possibility". There is our underlying problem. Someone "called out" Joaquin in a previous thread. If someone called me a "liar", even in jest, I'd want to prove them wrong. If I had made statements about how strong I was, and someone called me on those, I'd sure as hell want to prove them wrong and myself right. Now, in the off chance that I claimed I was stronger than I actually was, and someone called me a "liar" on that claim I'd be doing something, anything, to redeem myself.

Now, if your training leads you in the way you say, "I believe everything I am told unless I have a reason to not believe it" truly removes you from the possibility of being a scientist.

Ask Kendall what he thinks about this, he was there wasn't he? Oh, he already piped up that he thinks Joaquin did the ride in the time claimed, even though he wasn't with him the entire time. But, what would he know? If Joaquin wanted to prove a lie why would he wait for there to be a witness there? He had no idea how good Kendall was going to be did he? You are welcome to think what you want but this ""fraud" makes no sense to me.

And, you confuse science with anecdotal reports. Believing anecdotal reports is not quite the same as science so tending on the side of believing people is not inconsistent with being a scientist. Sometimes listening and believing people actually leads to science in trying to prove or disprove the reports one is hearing. Many of the so-called scientists here seem to forget that and simply proclaim things to be impossible, rather than doing the work and proving it so. It was what happened with "cold fusion", the subsequent studies proved it didn't happen. I believe that is what both Luttrell and Dixon were trying to do regarding the PowerCranks claims, but they failed. Thanks for bringing that up.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 17:11

Post #304 of 544 Views: 12281

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[reply]
the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.[/reply]

You keep saying this, but this is not actually the case.

It's not? What time does the file say it took him to cover the distance? Or, what is the time for interval 1 and what is the distance covered as logged (not as calculated by the average speed)?

My point is that if the file is obviously corrupt or manipulated, you can't pick out one set of data and claim that it is accurate or uncorrupted. But I suppose it is a fool's errand to try and convince you of that. You have a pretty long track record of leaning on incomplete bits of data that support claims you want to make. If the data is junk, it is junk. You can't just take a part of it because you want to. The fact that one part of a corrupt data file matches up with a ballpark estimate from AnalyticCycling (made by me, of a climb I've never seen, and for which I was relying on 3rd hand information to profile) means nothing.

The data doesn't show what you hoped it would, because it is junk (either because of manipulation or corruption). Why can't you just simply say that and wait for the next PowerCranks wunderkind to come along?

I didn't say that one set of data was accurate or uncorrupted, only that one set of data supports what he (and Kendall) said occurred. That suggests it is accurate and so, it is "the case" that I keep saying. Another set of data actually suggests his power is higher than he claims (the speed data), so that may be manipulated but he isn't using it to prove his case. Hence, there is a discontinuity. I agree the data file is corrupted so it should be discarded as nothing can be relied upon in this data.

You can think what you want but I suspect we will have to wait for more data to resolve this issue.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 17:22

Post #305 of 544 Views: 12261

isn't it 1-2 a.m. in Madrid? Where are you actually located?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 17:58

Post #306 of 544 Views: 12234

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[reply]
the file supports he did it in the time that analyticcycling says would take about 350 watts.[/reply]

You keep saying this, but this is not actually the case.

It's not? What time does the file say it took him to cover the distance? Or, what is the time for interval 1 and what is the distance covered as logged (not as calculated by the average speed)?

My point is that if the file is obviously corrupt or manipulated, you can't pick out one set of data and claim that it is accurate or uncorrupted. But I suppose it is a fool's errand to try and convince you of that. You have a pretty long track record of leaning on incomplete bits of data that support claims you want to make. If the data is junk, it is junk. You can't just take a part of it because you want to. The fact that one part of a corrupt data file matches up with a ballpark estimate from AnalyticCycling (made by me, of a climb I've never seen, and for which I was relying on 3rd hand information to profile) means nothing.

The data doesn't show what you hoped it would, because it is junk (either because of manipulation or corruption). Why can't you just simply say that and wait for the next PowerCranks wunderkind to come along?

I didn't say that one set of data was accurate or uncorrupted, only that one set of data supports what he (and Kendall) said occurred. That suggests it is accurate and so, it is "the case" that I keep saying. Another set of data actually suggests his power is higher than he claims (the speed data), so that may be manipulated but he isn't using it to prove his case. Hence, there is a discontinuity. I agree the data file is corrupted so it should be discarded as nothing can be relied upon in this data.

You can think what you want but I suspect we will have to wait for more data to resolve this issue.

The power data ALSO shows (at least in terms of the average) what Joaquin says occured, but that is clearly junk. The whole file is junk. So you can't say that one part of it is probably accurate. That is a fundamental flaw in your scientific method. You seem to think it is okay to pick and choose from the data. Data is good, or it's bad. It's not some of each.

Taken another way, of course the file says that the X distance was covered in Y time. The general consensus is that the file was manipulated by someone, so clearly the manipulation would make sure that at the very least, the duration and time of the climb matched up. Just like the average power matches up to the claimed report. If the time/distance for the climb didn't match up, then the data would obviously be junk, even to someone who knew nothing about power files.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:00

Post #307 of 544 Views: 12227

"Ask Kendall what he thinks about this, he was there wasn't he?"

He was in the general vicinity, but was NOT at the finish of the climb.

"Oh, he already piped up that he thinks Joaquin did the ride in the time claimed, even though he wasn't with him the entire time."

Exactly, he THINKS (not KNOWS) Joaquin did the ride, but he WASN'T WITH HIM. I guess you are MISSING THE FACTS...surprise, surprise.

"If Joaquin wanted to prove a lie why would he wait for there to be a witness there?"

Remind me again what was witnessed. Because this mysterious file DISAPPEARED for WEEKS. What good is a WITNESS if they DIDN'T WITNESS ANYTHING.

"You are welcome to think what you want but this ""fraud" makes no sense to me"

A couple things here: thank you for allowing me to think what I want. BUT, NEXT TIME YOU QUOTE ME, MAKE SURE I SAID IT! You can't quote the word "fraud" to me until I say it! Something like that will REALLY upset some people. Ask h2ofun about me taking something he said out of context. THEN, ask him if he'd get mad if not only was it taken out of context, but COMPLETELY FRAUDULENT.

"Believing anecdotal reports is not quite the same as science so tending on the side of believing people is not inconsistent with being a scientist"

Um, I don't know about that Frank. I know I'll LISTEN to people, but if I think there is ANY chance of what they are saying to not be true, it is up to them to PROVE it. I don't JUST BELIEVE CLAIMS. I don't think a scientist would either, until the hypothesis becomes a theory, it isn't to be believed, right?

"Sometimes listening and believing people actually leads to science in trying to prove or disprove the reports one is hearing"

Close, listening to them leads to science, believing them does not. If you blindly believe them, there is no science to follow.

"Many of the so-called scientists here seem to forget that and simply proclaim things to be impossible, rather than doing the work and proving it so"

And this is why we keep telling you that you are not a scientist. When anything is claimed, it is up to that person to prove it to be true, NOT to everyone else to prove it's not true. I could tell you I can produce 1,900 watts for 47 hours straight. BUT, it would be up to me to prove it, not up to you to disprove it.

"I believe that is what both Luttrell and Dixon were trying to do regarding the PowerCranks claims, but they failed. Thanks for bringing that up"

Here we go again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:03

Post #308 of 544 Views: 12219

"You can think what you want but I suspect we will have to wait for more data to resolve this issue"

I thought that's what THIS file was supposed to do! We waited and waited for this one to resolve the issue....and surprisingly enough it didn't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:15

Post #309 of 544 Views: 12214

In Reply To:

. . . That is a fundamental flaw in your scientific method. You seem to think it is okay to pick and choose from the data. Data is good, or it's bad. It's not some of each.

Taken another way, of course the file says that the X distance was covered in Y time. The general consensus is that the file was manipulated by someone, so clearly the manipulation would make sure that at the very least, the duration and time of the climb matched up. Just like the average power matches up to the claimed report. If the time/distance for the climb didn't match up, then the data would obviously be junk, even to someone who knew nothing about power files.

What "flaw" in my scientific method? I have simply said there is data to support what was said to have occurred. And there is conflicting data to suggest he performed even better. Your ignoring the supporting data is a flaw in your analysis. The entire file cannot be relied upon because of the discrepancies but it is ludicrous to suggest the file was manipulated to make it look better then it is for nefarious purposes but then that data is not used to inflate claims over the lesser data that supports what was reported.

This is only an issue because it has to do with PowerCranks and I suspect some of you will grasp at any straw to discredit any claim that suggests PC's are as good as I say. This data should not be used to support Joaquin's claim but is also should not be used to refute it. It is bad data. We are stuck with field reports as to what actually happened. Believe them or not.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:26

Post #310 of 544 Views: 12202

In Reply To:

"Ask Kendall what he thinks about this, he was there wasn't he?"

He was in the general vicinity, but was NOT at the finish of the climb.

If he had been at the finish he would not have been at the start. He made his assessment by what he observed, in part by riding out with him and then watching him easily ride away. He thought he most likely did it in the time claimed.[/reply]

"Oh, he already piped up that he thinks Joaquin did the ride in the time claimed, even though he wasn't with him the entire time."

Exactly, he THINKS (not KNOWS) Joaquin did the ride, but he WASN'T WITH HIM. I guess you are MISSING THE FACTS...surprise, surprise.[/reply] The only fact here is he was there, you were not.[/reply]
"If Joaquin wanted to prove a lie why would he wait for there to be a witness there?"

Remind me again what was witnessed. Because this mysterious file DISAPPEARED for WEEKS. What good is a WITNESS if they DIDN'T WITNESS ANYTHING.[/reply] No, they didn't witness what you wanted them to witness. He witnessed plenty and made his assessment. You, of course, are free to disagree.[/reply]
"You are welcome to think what you want but this ""fraud" makes no sense to me"

A couple things here: thank you for allowing me to think what I want. BUT, NEXT TIME YOU QUOTE ME, MAKE SURE I SAID IT! You can't quote the word "fraud" to me until I say it! Something like that will REALLY upset some people. Ask h2ofun about me taking something he said out of context. THEN, ask him if he'd get mad if not only was it taken out of context, but COMPLETELY FRAUDULENT.[/reply] Ugh, you may not have used the word fraud, but you have certainly implied it. If you have not implied it tell my what you have been implying as to the intent of the person you believed manipulated this file.[/reply]
"Believing anecdotal reports is not quite the same as science so tending on the side of believing people is not inconsistent with being a scientist"

Um, I don't know about that Frank. I know I'll LISTEN to people, but if I think there is ANY chance of what they are saying to not be true, it is up to them to PROVE it. I don't JUST BELIEVE CLAIMS. I don't think a scientist would either, until the hypothesis becomes a theory, it isn't to be believed, right?

"Sometimes listening and believing people actually leads to science in trying to prove or disprove the reports one is hearing"

Close, listening to them leads to science, believing them does not. If you blindly believe them, there is no science to follow.

"Many of the so-called scientists here seem to forget that and simply proclaim things to be impossible, rather than doing the work and proving it so"

And this is why we keep telling you that you are not a scientist. When anything is claimed, it is up to that person to prove it to be true, NOT to everyone else to prove it's not true. I could tell you I can produce 1,900 watts for 47 hours straight. BUT, it would be up to me to prove it, not up to you to disprove it.[/reply] You mistake marketing claims, what I believe the typical user will see, from scientific proof. It is not my duty to prove marketing claims. I offer a 90 day money-back guarantee as the "proof" of my marketing claims. If I could "prove" them I would but it is difficult. Show my one other product in this field that has scientific proof of their marketing claims. At least a study is soon to be underway that might let me "prove" what I have been saying all along or cause me to revise my claims.[/reply]
"I believe that is what both Luttrell and Dixon were trying to do regarding the PowerCranks claims, but they failed. Thanks for bringing that up"

Here we go again.
[/reply] Only if you want to. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:26

Post #311 of 544 Views: 12202

In Reply To:

I didn't say that one set of data was accurate or uncorrupted, only that one set of data supports what he (and Kendall) said occurred. That suggests it is accurate and so, it is "the case" that I keep saying. Another set of data actually suggests his power is higher than he claims (the speed data), so that may be manipulated but he isn't using it to prove his case. Hence, there is a discontinuity.

Yep...here's where the discontinuity is located:

Frank Day <---> logic

You keep forgetting that the speed data and the distance data are calculated from the same signal using the same entered coefficient. A "glitch" affecting one would affect the other....and this mysterious "glitch" ONLY occurred during the interval in question...how interesting.

In Reply To:

I agree the data file is corrupted so it should be discarded as nothing can be relied upon in this data.

You WISH it could be discarded. Sorry...not going to happen. The one thing it can be relied upon is to clearly demonstrate how bogus his (and your) claims are.

In Reply To:

You can think what you want but I suspect we will have to wait for more data to resolve this issue.

You're a real piece of work....

Watching you try to find evidence to support your claims is like watching a low-rent version of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"...only not as funny.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:27

Post #312 of 544 Views: 12201

Frank, let me ask you this: let's say you are performing a scientific study. You finish the study, and realize the measuring device you were using was inaccurate. What do you do then? Do you use the data that supports the result you'd like to see? Or do you throw out the data and realize that if one portion of the data is bad, it's all bad?

Another question: let's say you make a public claim to potentially thousands and thousands of people. Someone calls you a "liar" from this public claim. You stick to your claim and try to back it up, but when the data you were going to use comes back NOT supporting your claim. Do you manipulate the data to fit, or do you admit defeat?

I can't speak for others, but I'll throw out a Get Out of Jail Free Card in my eyes: admit this data is crap, from beginning to end, and there is NOTHING of use...NOTHING and I'll drop it and stop pestering you. But to do so, you have to stop trying to defend a file that is so painfully obvious that it's crap and stop trying to say there is data that supports Joaquin's claim.

"some of you will grasp at any straw to discredit any claim that suggests PC's are as good as I say"

I don't think the hordes of people ganging up on you are the ones grasping at straws, Frank.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:34

Post #313 of 544 Views: 12186

In Reply To:

What "flaw" in my scientific method? I have simply said there is data to support what was said to have occurred. And there is conflicting data to suggest he performed even better. Your ignoring the supporting data is a flaw in your analysis. The entire file cannot be relied upon because of the discrepancies but it is ludicrous to suggest the file was manipulated to make it look better then it is for nefarious purposes but then that data is not used to inflate claims over the lesser data that supports what was reported.

If there was a dictionary definition of "delusional spin", that paragraph above would be a prime example.

Now the choice is between the data either supporting what he claimed...or that it could have been BETTER???

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

In Reply To:

This is only an issue because it has to do with PowerCranks and I suspect some of you will grasp at any straw to discredit any claim that suggests PC's are as good as I say.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! STOP IT! STOP IT! YOU'RE KILLING ME!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

Who's grasping at straws???? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 18:36

Post #314 of 544 Views: 12181

" If he had been at the finish he would not have been at the start. He made his assessment by what he observed, in part by riding out with him and then watching him easily ride away. He thought he most likely did it in the time claimed"

I agree, he would have had to ride as fast or faster than Joaquin, he could not, either could I. He made an assessment, but THAT IS NOT DATA. He thinks Joaquin is a good rider, especially against his ability, I would and DO think the same. But that doesn't make the claims you and Joaquin have made true.

"The only fact here is he was there, you were not."

I was not, either were you. But that is NOT the only fact.

"No, they didn't witness what you wanted them to witness. He witnessed plenty and made his assessment. You, of course, are free to disagree"

Plenty is a relative term. In this case, plenty for you is NOT plenty for me. I've witnessed plenty of people ride away from me, that means nothing for them other than the fact that they're faster than me. It certainly does not prove their power or explain a file like this one.

"Ugh, you may not have used the word fraud, but you have certainly implied it. If you have not implied it tell my what you have been implying as to the intent of the person you believed manipulated this file"

YOU CAN NOT QUOTE SOMETHING I MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE IMPLIED. And acting like a pre-teen girl with your "ugh" doesn't make me pity you. All I have implied to this point is that this file is either corrupt, manipulated, or both. By who, I don't know and don't claim to know.

"It is not my duty to prove marketing claims"

Um, then whose duty is it? Oh yeah, THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIMS.

"Show my one other product in this field that has scientific proof of their marketing claims. At least a study is soon to be underway that might let me "prove" what I have been saying all along or cause me to revise my claims"

Anyone else making those claims should prove them as well! I'm not just saying you should, everyone should have proof to their claims before making them. I know I was taught in school not to claim something until I could prove it. As for the study that is soon to be underway....good! Can we know anything about this study?

"Only if you want to. :-)"

NO!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 21, 07 19:25

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 19:23

Post #315 of 544 Views: 12143

In Reply To:

Your ignoring the supporting data is a flaw in your analysis. The entire file cannot be relied upon because of the discrepancies but it is ludicrous to suggest the file was manipulated to make it look better then it is for nefarious purposes but then that data is not used to inflate claims over the lesser data that supports what was reported.

So my flaw is that I am ignoring data that is obviously crapola? Ok, no problem. I accept that. I am willing to admit that I do not consider data that is obviously junk when drawing conclusions.

In Reply To:

...We are stuck with field reports as to what actually happened. Believe them or not.

No, we also have a file that certainly shows strong evidence of manipulation, given that ONLY the specific interval in question shows signs of irregularity. If the rest of the data was equally bad, that would indicate a faulty device. But the data only becomes "odd" once the climb starts. Hmmmmm...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 19:49

Post #316 of 544 Views: 12121

In Reply To:

I see no secondary gain potential here to suggest lying is a reasonable possibility.

How about good old-fashioned ego gratification?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 19:50

Post #317 of 544 Views: 12120

In Reply To:

No, we also have a file that certainly shows evidence of manipulation, given that ONLY the specific interval in question shows signs of irregularity. If the rest of the data was equally bad, that would indicate a faulty device. But the data only becomes "odd" once the climb starts. Hmmmmm...

Come on, Frank explained that earlier with a completely plausible explanation right here: "While repeating data could be from a cut and paste manipulation of a data file. It could also be from an electrical interference pattern from some repeating outside source when the data was collected."

I think I saw this on the X-Files.....

So, is this not a good time to ask you about your own experience with PC's......

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 20:57

Post #318 of 544 Views: 12094

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

No, we also have a file that certainly shows evidence of manipulation, given that ONLY the specific interval in question shows signs of irregularity. If the rest of the data was equally bad, that would indicate a faulty device. But the data only becomes "odd" once the climb starts. Hmmmmm...

Come on, Frank explained that earlier with a completely plausible explanation right here: "While repeating data could be from a cut and paste manipulation of a data file. It could also be from an electrical interference pattern from some repeating outside source when the data was collected."

I think I saw this on the X-Files.....

So, is this not a good time to ask you about your own experience with PC's......

My coach and several other sensible people talked me out of trying them. One of the most notable items was the following observation, "everyone I know who uses them seems to get injured at some point." I also spent a lot of time reading Dr. Coggan's and other's opinions on the matter (in threads like this one) and decided I was, like many people, looking for a "shortcut" or "edge" which didn't really exist. I knew a few guys who used to use them - all guys I respect. NONE of them use them anymore, which to me speaks volumes. Basically, when it came down to it, I had lots of people I trust telling me "no," and no one saying "yes."

I think one of the key factors is that people train and they use powercranks, and they get faster. And then they mistakenly assume that they got faster because they trained used powercranks, rather than just because they were training hard. Coggan posted something along these lines in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek post about how to raise VO2max some % in some period of time. Basically, the crux was just do smart, hard workouts.

Not one the former powercranks users I know misses them. Not one of them has gotten slower.

My own fleeting interest also had nothing to do with cycling. It had to do with running. I've also shifted my training program towards a lower volume of higher quality cycling, and more running, so the idea of using my cycling to improve my running is even less applicable than it was in the past when I was riding more.

Basically, I did research and used some critical thinking and asked my coach to do the same. In the end, our decision was that powercranks were not worthwhile. We both focused on training where is lots of good evidence (and easily producible power files to support said evidence) of what actually works.

EDIT: Quick add - it was over this most recent winter, when I had planned to use them, that all the guys I know who had used them decided they just weren't worth it. So all those guys I talked about in the thread you mentioned who had not previously had anything bad to say, changed their mind. People can do that, contrary to what *certain* people on this forum might be people. It is okay to admit you were wrong. Or to change your mind. Or to come to a new understanding in light of research, input from knowledgeable folks, etc. ;)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Last edited by: Rappstar: Nov 21, 07 21:00

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 20:58

Post #319 of 544 Views: 12092

In Reply To:

Frank, let me ask you this: let's say you are performing a scientific study. You finish the study, and realize the measuring device you were using was inaccurate. What do you do then? Do you use the data that supports the result you'd like to see? Or do you throw out the data and realize that if one portion of the data is bad, it's all bad?

Well, it would depend upon the type of error and whether it is correctable. When doing a scientific study one should describe the materials and techniques one is using and if an error is found but it can be compensated for then that error should be described and the method of compensation described then the editors can determine whether the study should be published and the readers can determine the value of the data and the study. If the error is uncorrectable then the study is crap and nothing can be learned from it. One must analyze the data that one has.

In Reply To:

Another question: let's say you make a public claim to potentially thousands and thousands of people. Someone calls you a "liar" from this public claim. You stick to your claim and try to back it up, but when the data you were going to use comes back NOT supporting your claim. Do you manipulate the data to fit, or do you admit defeat?

I wouldn't manipulate the data. But, I haven't done what you said.

In Reply To:

I can't speak for others, but I'll throw out a Get Out of Jail Free Card in my eyes: admit this data is crap, from beginning to end, and there is NOTHING of use...NOTHING and I'll drop it and stop pestering you. But to do so, you have to stop trying to defend a file that is so painfully obvious that it's crap and stop trying to say there is data that supports Joaquin's claim.

Ugh, this data is crap. But, using my response to your first question I contend this data cannot be used to either confirm or refute Joaquin's claim since the data is contradictory.

In Reply To:

"some of you will grasp at any straw to discredit any claim that suggests PC's are as good as I say"

I don't think the hordes of people ganging up on you are the ones grasping at straws, Frank.

Yes they are. They are the ones trying to use crap data to discredit someone. I admit the data is flawed and should not be used to support Joaquin's claim. But, there is data in there that supports his claim so, by the same token, this data should not be used to discredit him. That can only be done if good data is obtained, be it an eye witness to his entire climb next time or a data file that is internally consistent (even that wouldn't satisfy some here as they would think he learned how to better manipulate a file this next time from this thread). If, instead, his file had low numbers but these same internal consistencies would these same people be clamoring that the file was manipulated and the data should not be trusted. I think not.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:06

Post #320 of 544 Views: 12084

i might be mistaken but did I not read somewhere earlier in this thread that a) the file contains a whole lot of data prior to this particular climb and b) only the climb portion was deemed as corrupt?

Note sure if you have the file but would it not make sense to do some analysis of the prior data to get a feel for the kind of power output (w.r.t HR if nothing earlier in the file was ridden "all out" ) Joaquin is capable of?

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:17

Post #321 of 544 Views: 12074

In Reply To:

" If he had been at the finish he would not have been at the start. He made his assessment by what he observed, in part by riding out with him and then watching him easily ride away. He thought he most likely did it in the time claimed"

I agree, he would have had to ride as fast or faster than Joaquin, he could not, either could I. He made an assessment, but THAT IS NOT DATA. He thinks Joaquin is a good rider, especially against his ability, I would and DO think the same. But that doesn't make the claims you and Joaquin have made true.

I have not made any claims here. I have simplypointed out what the data shows relative to Joaquin's claim. The data supports it in some ways, but is inconsistent in others so, hence, cannot be trusted and shouldn't be used either for or against the claim. Those who think this data proves he cannot do what he says he did or does are wrong.

In Reply To:

"The only fact here is he was there, you were not."

I was not, either were you. But that is NOT the only fact.

"No, they didn't witness what you wanted them to witness. He witnessed plenty and made his assessment. You, of course, are free to disagree"

Plenty is a relative term. In this case, plenty for you is NOT plenty for me. I've witnessed plenty of people ride away from me, that means nothing for them other than the fact that they're faster than me. It certainly does not prove their power or explain a file like this one.

Well, I guess it was plenty enough for Kendall.

In Reply To:

"Ugh, you may not have used the word fraud, but you have certainly implied it. If you have not implied it tell my what you have been implying as to the intent of the person you believed manipulated this file"

YOU CAN NOT QUOTE SOMETHING I MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE IMPLIED. And acting like a pre-teen girl with your "ugh" doesn't make me pity you. All I have implied to this point is that this file is either corrupt, manipulated, or both. By who, I don't know and don't claim to know.

Well, others have certainly implied deliberate intent on Joaquin's part to corrupt this file. The file is corrupted. It is worthless to prove any point about that ride.

In Reply To:

"It is not my duty to prove marketing claims"

Um, then whose duty is it? Oh yeah, THE ONE MAKING THE CLAIMS.

No, my only duty is to have enough data to support the claim. Supporting a claim and proving a claim are two entirely different things. I believe the claim to be true. I am working on getting additional support. Whether I am able to get scientific proof or not is yet to be determined. If I do so I may be the first product in the history of sport to get proof of a performance enhancement claim ever.

In Reply To:

"Show my one other product in this field that has scientific proof of their marketing claims. At least a study is soon to be underway that might let me "prove" what I have been saying all along or cause me to revise my claims"

Anyone else making those claims should prove them as well! I'm not just saying you should, everyone should have proof to their claims before making them. I know I was taught in school not to claim something until I could prove it. As for the study that is soon to be underway....good! Can we know anything about this study?

Don't hold your breath. Have you asked Dr. Coggan to show proof that all of what he says in his book is proven true? If you do, don't hold your breath because it doesn't exist.

Regarding the study I will not discuss it any more than I have. I don't discuss studies in general before they are published because doing so could interfere with their being published. I am interested in them being published, if possible so I don't want to do anything that might hurt that potential. As I said, I expect it to get underway soon and it should have enough subjects and last long enough to be very powerful, statistically speaking.

In Reply To:

"Only if you want to. :-)"

NO!!!!!!!!!!

Rats:-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:26

Post #322 of 544 Views: 12067

"Well, it would depend upon the type of error and whether it is correctable. When doing a scientific study one should describe the materials and techniques one is using and if an error is found but it can be compensated for then that error should be described and the method of compensation described then the editors can determine whether the study should be published and the readers can determine the value of the data and the study. If the error is uncorrectable then the study is crap and nothing can be learned from it. One must analyze the data that one has"

In your opinion, do you THINK (not "do you know", do you THINK) this data was compensated? If so, was it done without describing the method used? I'm looking for your OPINION on this one.

"I wouldn't manipulate the data. But, I haven't done what you said"

I'm not claiming you manipulated anything, but what are you saying you didn't do that I said? Made a public claim to thousands of people? That you DID do, and CONTINUALLY do.

"I contend this data cannot be used to either confirm or refute Joaquin's claim since the data is contradictory"

I agree with you partly. This data can not be used to refute his claim, IMO. But, it's not my job to refute his claim. For about the 900th time, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. This is a point that for some reason, no one as has been able to get across to you. So, UNTIL IT'S PROVEN TO BE TRUE, IT ISN'T.

"They are the ones trying to use crap data to discredit someone"

They are discrediting him, not refuting his claim, big difference. On this forum at this point, Joaquin holds little credibility in many peoples' eyes. That doesn't mean they are saying he CAN'T potentially do what he says, but that he hasn't and has to prove it. Credibility and ability are very different.

"But, there is data in there that supports his claim so, by the same token, this data should not be used to discredit him"

Frank, come on. I could claim 1,000 watt FTP. But just because I jump on the pedals and produce 1,000 watts for a moment in time, doesn't support my claim.

"That can only be done if good data is obtained, be it an eye witness to his entire climb next time or a data file that is internally consistent"

An eye witness to his full climb and a good data file (that doesn't take weeks to get a hold of and have VERY inconsistent data) will quiet down some....But, this argument has as much to do with the fact that you keep tauting these wunderkind PC users that don't live up to the claims. I don't know about you, but when I am feeling attacked I want nothing more than to prove people wrong. If I were in your shoes I'd be doing everything I could to get at least one person to come through with their claims....

"even that wouldn't satisfy some here as they would think he learned how to better manipulate a file this next time from this thread"

There you go again, putting words in peoples mouths. How about you produce the results that are accurate and verifiable before passing judgment.

"If, instead, his file had low numbers but these same internal consistencies would these same people be clamoring that the file was manipulated and the data should not be trusted. I think not."

One last reminder: speak for yourself and not others....But, if Joaquin's numbers were consistently too low, there would be no argument. No one would doctor a file that makes them look like they have LESS power. If the file showed low we'd all KNOW it wasn't doctored, unless of course Joaquin were sandbagging for some reason.

You're missing the point here. If the numbers were low with inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support Joaquin. If the numbers were high with inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support his claim. If the numbers were low without inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support Joaquin. IF THE NUMBERS WERE HIGH WITHOUT INCONSISTENCIES, THE NUMBERS WOULD FINALLY SUPPORT JOAQUIN.

So, of course, if the numbers were low and STILL had the consistencies, you're wrong, I would still say the data shouldn't be trusted, but I would ALSO still say it doesn't support his claims.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:40

Post #323 of 544 Views: 12056

"I have not made any claims here"

HERE being the key word.

"Those who think this data proves he cannot do what he says he did or does are wrong"

Maybe I missed that, who said this "corrupt" data PROVES he cannot do what he says?

"Well, I guess it was plenty enough for Kendall"

OK Frank, but Kendal's "plenty" was enough to say, yes, Joaquin is fast. But NOT enough to say, yes, Joaquin is as fast as he says he is. Those are two very different points.

" Well, others have certainly implied deliberate intent on Joaquin's part to corrupt this file. The file is corrupted. It is worthless to prove any point about that ride"

First you "quote" the word fraud as I said it. Then you tell me I implied something that I didn't. Then you pin what OTHERS have implied on me? You're full of it Frank.

"my only duty is to have enough data to support the claim"

Which I'm not convinced of. To which you'll say, "but you'll never be convinced". Try me.

"Supporting a claim and proving a claim are two entirely different things"

I agree. I don't feel you can adequitely do either. But that's just me.

"I believe the claim to be true"

Believing something, doesn't make it true. That goes for both of us, not just you.

"I am working on getting additional support. Whether I am able to get scientific proof or not is yet to be determined"

Best of luck, so far your "test mule" results have been less than stellar. But I really do wish you the best, if you prove us all wrong, we'll all be on PC's and riding 40% faster.

"Have you asked Dr. Coggan to show proof that all of what he says in his book is proven true?"

Such as? I just finished his book not long ago, but I don't remember reading any "claims" that I thought could even possibly be not true. But let me know what you think isn't true and maybe I can ask him.

"As I said, I expect it to get underway soon and it should have enough subjects and last long enough to be very powerful, statistically speaking"

Two questions that shouldn't give much away: When should we expect it to get started and how long will it run? Oh, and a third question, will there be a control group?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:50

Post #324 of 544 Views: 12046

Jordan, thanks for the thoughtful reply. However, I still can't see why you don't understand the obvious Area 51 effect that the Morcuera climb has on the Power Tap.......

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 21:57

Post #325 of 544 Views: 12041

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

No, we also have a file that certainly shows evidence of manipulation, given that ONLY the specific interval in question shows signs of irregularity. If the rest of the data was equally bad, that would indicate a faulty device. But the data only becomes "odd" once the climb starts. Hmmmmm...

Come on, Frank explained that earlier with a completely plausible explanation right here: "While repeating data could be from a cut and paste manipulation of a data file. It could also be from an electrical interference pattern from some repeating outside source when the data was collected."

I think I saw this on the X-Files.....

So, is this not a good time to ask you about your own experience with PC's......

My coach and several other sensible people talked me out of trying them. One of the most notable items was the following observation, "everyone I know who uses them seems to get injured at some point." I also spent a lot of time reading Dr. Coggan's and other's opinions on the matter (in threads like this one) and decided I was, like many people, looking for a "shortcut" or "edge" which didn't really exist. I knew a few guys who used to use them - all guys I respect. NONE of them use them anymore, which to me speaks volumes. Basically, when it came down to it, I had lots of people I trust telling me "no," and no one saying "yes."

Last time I was at a Team Timex training camp (2006) and I asked the athletes how many had or were training on PowerCranks about half the room raised their hand. Do you mean to say that all of those people gave up on them? That is not the feedback I have had. But, you know, they are probably just playing along with me to keep the "sponsor" happy.

I am especially intrigued by this observation you made: "One of the most notable items was the following observation, "everyone I know who uses them seems to get injured at some point." "

Wow, that is so foreign to the reports I get from users. Perhaps you could PM me some names and how the PC's contributed to their injuries so I could look into it more. I mean elite athletes get injured all the time. One of the selling points we emphasize is they help reduce risk of injury, and help the injured rehab. I would really love to get some data from you that suggests this is not true. Of course, it would be good if it were good data an not just a lot of anecdotes. I mean, we sold a PowerCranks exercise bike to a Div I gymnastics coach to use in keeping his girls healthy. He got them because the track team and trainers at the same school was using PC's to keep the track team healthy. It is why Coach Joe vigil got PC's for Team Running - USA (California) which only has such members as Meb Keflezigh, Deena Kastor, Ryan Hall, the late Ryan Shay (maybe we can blame his last "injury" on the PC's) and others. Where did these folks go wrong in their understanding of the product that your coach clearly understands from his vast experience with them?

Anyhow, I am sorry you didn't have the cajones to try them yourself (they are still on the shelf since you wanted a special size) and see what you thought from your own experience and how they fit your specific need rather than taking the opinions of others.

In Reply To:

I think one of the key factors is that people train and they use powercranks, and they get faster. And then they mistakenly assume that they got faster because they trained used powercranks, rather than just because they were training hard. Coggan posted something along these lines in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek post about how to raise VO2max some % in some period of time. Basically, the crux was just do smart, hard workouts.

Not one the former powercranks users I know misses them. Not one of them has gotten slower.

Well, I suspect that not one of those users used them exclusively such that they never really got through the transition. It is one of the reasons we don't give these things away to pros anymore. If they are simply trying them because it is more "free swag" they are not motivated to use them properly and they give up on them. New pros who get on them now do so because they want to be on them. Anyhow, to each his own.

In Reply To:

My own fleeting interest also had nothing to do with cycling. It had to do with running. I've also shifted my training program towards a lower volume of higher quality cycling, and more running, so the idea of using my cycling to improve my running is even less applicable than it was in the past when I was riding more.

Basically, I did research and used some critical thinking and asked my coach to do the same. In the end, our decision was that powercranks were not worthwhile. We both focused on training where is lots of good evidence (and easily producible power files to support said evidence) of what actually works.

EDIT: Quick add - it was over this most recent winter, when I had planned to use them, that all the guys I know who had used them decided they just weren't worth it. So all those guys I talked about in the thread you mentioned who had not previously had anything bad to say, changed their mind. People can do that, contrary to what *certain* people on this forum might be people. It is okay to admit you were wrong. Or to change your mind. Or to come to a new understanding in light of research, input from knowledgeable folks, etc. ;)

Are you saying nobody on the Timex team or any pro you know who did use them still uses them? Wow!!! That is pretty amazing. I may have to fact check that. If I can find one who is still using them that you know does that mean you are manipulating the data for some nefarious purpose. :-) That wasn't what I heard from Victor or Andily or Louis or any of many others last time I saw them. And, I wonder why we still get request from Timex pros to get on them. They mustn't know anyone you know.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 22:02

Post #326 of 544 Views: 13673

In Reply To:

The data supports it in some ways, but is inconsistent in others so, hence, cannot be trusted and shouldn't be used either for or against the claim. Those who think this data proves he cannot do what he says he did or does are wrong.

I completely disagree. 1) The main file IS consistent (except for the climb), and the data from the climb are NOT 'inconsistent', they're clearly manipulated--that's a big difference.

By 'clearly manipulated', I mean that any reasonable person with a modicum of knowledge about 1) how a power tap records data and 2) statistics, would come to that conclusion. Several people here have, and the only alternate theory you've put forward is along the lines 'alien mind control has corrupted the data'. An 'interference loop' cause several, identical and nearly identical patterns?? You can't really think that's a reasonable explanation, can you?

I'm sure that many people here have seen power tap files where the head or hub has had problems, or there has been interference or connectivity issues. The files just don't look like this, ever.

Last edited by: roady: Nov 21, 07 22:13

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 21, 07 22:35

Post #327 of 544 Views: 13652

In Reply To:

"Well, it would depend upon the type of error and whether it is correctable. When doing a scientific study one should describe the materials and techniques one is using and if an error is found but it can be compensated for then that error should be described and the method of compensation described then the editors can determine whether the study should be published and the readers can determine the value of the data and the study. If the error is uncorrectable then the study is crap and nothing can be learned from it. One must analyze the data that one has"
In your opinion, do you THINK (not "do you know", do you THINK) this data was compensated? If so, was it done without describing the method used? I'm looking for your OPINION on this one.

This data is internally inconsistent. I do not know how it got this way but it is this way and this inconsistency makes it worthless to prove make any point.

In Reply To:

"I wouldn't manipulate the data. But, I haven't done what you said"
I'm not claiming you manipulated anything, but what are you saying you didn't do that I said? Made a public claim to thousands of people? That you DID do, and CONTINUALLY do.

what claim is that? that I expect our typical new user can gain 40% in cycling power in 6-9 months of exclusive PC use? Yes, I still make that claim and I admit it has not been scientifically proven. It is an expectation based upon my own early testing and from feedback from users as to what many (most) achieve. Some see more and some, of course, see less. Oh, and at the same time we expect them to run substantially faster also, most will see about a minute per mile in their marathon pace in about 3 months. Is that the claim to which you were referring?

In Reply To:

"I contend this data cannot be used to either confirm or refute Joaquin's claim since the data is contradictory"
I agree with you partly. This data can not be used to refute his claim, IMO. But, it's not my job to refute his claim. For about the 900th time, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. This is a point that for some reason, no one as has been able to get across to you. So, UNTIL IT'S PROVEN TO BE TRUE, IT ISN'T.

That is cool. His abilities remain unproven to the ST crowd. Just as the point that he deliberately manipulated the data to make himself look better than he is is unproven. The data is worthless for proving any point about his abilities (although it is not worthless for making innuendo).

In Reply To:

"They are the ones trying to use crap data to discredit someone"
They are discrediting him, not refuting his claim, big difference. On this forum at this point, Joaquin holds little credibility in many peoples' eyes. That doesn't mean they are saying he CAN'T potentially do what he says, but that he hasn't and has to prove it. Credibility and ability are very different.

So be it. It is the internet.

In Reply To:

"But, there is data in there that supports his claim so, by the same token, this data should not be used to discredit him"
Frank, come on. I could claim 1,000 watt FTP. But just because I jump on the pedals and produce 1,000 watts for a moment in time, doesn't support my claim.

The data to which I referred was an average power of 358 watts that went on for 29 minutes and covered a distance of 8+ km. That data is in the file and is consistent with what he claimed for this ride and what one gets if one puts the numbers into analyticcycling.com. Other data in the file is not consistent with this claim which is where the problem is. This has nothing to do with his previous testing results where he was told he had an FTP of 390 at that time.

In Reply To:

"That can only be done if good data is obtained, be it an eye witness to his entire climb next time or a data file that is internally consistent"
An eye witness to his full climb and a good data file (that doesn't take weeks to get a hold of and have VERY inconsistent data) will quiet down some....But, this argument has as much to do with the fact that you keep tauting these wunderkind PC users that don't live up to the claims. I don't know about you, but when I am feeling attacked I want nothing more than to prove people wrong. If I were in your shoes I'd be doing everything I could to get at least one person to come through with their claims....

There are some here that wouldn't believe Joaquin's results if God himself were to witness the ride and then certify the file. They would simply claim that enough time had passed that he would have seen that improvement in due course anyhow training on regular cranks.

In Reply To:

"even that wouldn't satisfy some here as they would think he learned how to better manipulate a file this next time from this thread"
There you go again, putting words in peoples mouths. How about you produce the results that are accurate and verifiable before passing judgment.

Hey, I can only do what I can do. I rely on others to do the work or produce the files or the argument can be made that I manipulated the files or data. Anyhow, this good study design and data collection was done by Luttrell. the only weakness of the study is he did not look at VO2max or max power after PowerCranks but only looked at efficiency. Go back and look at the criticism of that work. The data was basically ignored and the study discounted simply fbcause of the journal it was published in. Many here don't care about the data. They know what the results should be and anything to the contrary cannot reflect reality. Some scientists!

In Reply To:

"If, instead, his file had low numbers but these same internal consistencies would these same people be clamoring that the file was manipulated and the data should not be trusted. I think not."
One last reminder: speak for yourself and not others....But, if Joaquin's numbers were consistently too low, there would be no argument. No one would doctor a file that makes them look like they have LESS power. If the file showed low we'd all KNOW it wasn't doctored, unless of course Joaquin were sandbagging for some reason.
You're missing the point here. If the numbers were low with inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support Joaquin. If the numbers were high with inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support his claim. If the numbers were low without inconsistencies, the file wouldn't support Joaquin. IF THE NUMBERS WERE HIGH WITHOUT INCONSISTENCIES, THE NUMBERS WOULD FINALLY SUPPORT JOAQUIN.
So, of course, if the numbers were low and STILL had the consistencies, you're wrong, I would still say the data shouldn't be trusted, but I would ALSO still say it doesn't support his claims.

If the data is inconsistent, either high, low or otherwise, the data is pretty much worthless for proving anything! One may argue as to how it got that way but it is worthless to settle the "how good is he" argument.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 0:04

Post #328 of 544 Views: 13620

Here's some more fuel to the fire and further proof that the data has been "physicianed" (Thanks Paul!). Joaquin wrote on 10/28:

Quote:

This is how the interval looks like. Please let me know if anybody is interested in getting a copy of the original file, and I will send it via email.

The summary of the data is:
Duration: 00h 28 min 38 sec
Norm Power: 362
Min Max Avg
Power 160 571 359
Cadence 55 100 78
Speed 14.3 21.7 18.6
Heart rate 121 186 182

Well...something happened to the file between then and when it was sent to all of us, because here are the stats for that interval from the file he sent out:

Duration: 28:39
Work: 617 kJ
Norm Power: 360
VI: 1
Distance: 5.448 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 299 539 359 watts
Heart rate: 174 184 182 bpm
Cadence: 66 90 72 rpm
Speed: 11.8 15.7 13.1 mph
Pace 3:49 5:05 4:35 min/mi
Hub Torque: 155 264 182 lb-in
Crank Torque: 330 632 419 lb-in

So...either the original data was made up (gee, I wonder why he left out the distance), the later data was made up, or (and this is the most likely given all the evidence in play) BOTH sets of data were made up. Can't blame this one on the powertap.

Frank, I see that you are finally in the "anger" stage. It even sounds as if you've progressed along to "bargaining"...but, I think you may be directing your anger in the wrong places. Don't shoot the messenger(s).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 1:12

Post #329 of 544 Views: 13600

Personally, i can't believe you've all been so patient with Frank and his mad thoughts. Frank has talked the most utter shite i've ever come across from the moment i first had the misfortune of "speaking" (typing) with him. None of the stuff he's previously mentioned has been true, from the triathlete who was going to break the world hour cycling record on power cranks to the 11 yr old girl who turned up on the wrong day to Joaquin's sorry attempt here. Add in his pathetic attempt at presenting the world with his "use power cranks and gain 40% power" claim, which was some utter crap he did himself on his indoor trainer...

Anyway, other than the laugh that this thread has presented, it's wasting my life to read Frank's crap.

Ric

http://www.cyclecoach.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 4:01

Post #330 of 544 Views: 13570

Quote:

Here's some more fuel to the fire and further proof that the data has been "physicianed" (thanks, Paul)

Yeah man! ...woo hoo! my legacy!

I should be careful to criticize that data myself...'cuz even I've been "doctored". :)

Smelly, Ph.D.

Last edited by: Paul Smeulders: Nov 22, 07 4:11

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 4:09

Post #331 of 544 Views: 13566

The data in my file is exactly the one I posted several weeks ago. If I recall right I even posted the MMC for the ride. All the data was in Km/h, and I have checked this morning and is exactly as I said. It has nothing to do with the data you post here. Something is wrong there. And maybe thats why Robert asked me if the file he received was right because he got very strange results.

When I met Kendall I was never intending to do the climb at a max effort (we met a Friday afternoon after work, without lunch on a cold rainny day, and I was carrying my tarining bike with PCs and PT wheels. Never cared of inflating the tubes, or making sure the PT worked to record a file to demonstrate anything to anybody). It was Kendall who invited me to ride fast (but I guess he never intended to demonstrate anything either, since he was not carrying his PT, or it was also broken; he just wanted to ride up La Morcuera for fun). I told him my time up la Morcuera (not really, I just told him I was 1 minute behind my PB). He could easilly see me during the last section of the climb because the last 2 km of the climb are perfectly visible from the distance since there are no trees and is a strainght road. I waited for him, put on my rain jacked and winter gloves, ride down about two kilometers, and ride up again with him to the top. And then we took some photographs and rode down again to Soto del Real to drink a beer together. (Kendall is the story right?). He then told me two days later that he posted something here, and I did not even had a look to this thread until Frank told me you stupid guys were scatching your heads with the number Kendall left here. And I just posted the number I read in my Cycling Peaks software, and the reasons I could imagine why my time was 1 minute behind my PB and the wattage reading was higher. And forgot again about this thread. Believe me I DO NOT CARE AT ALL WHAT YOU THINK OF ME. You want to come to Spain, you are wellcome; you want to do a club ride, a race or climb la Morcuera, I will drive up to meet you; you beat me, fine, we will take a beer together. I beat you, great, we will take another beer together. But then I will come back home with my wife and kids who do not care at all about me cycling; otherwise, FORGET ME

Let me repeat: I did not make up any data. I just rode up with Kendall and I didn't have any idea he intended to start this thread here. So I never intended to claim anything. If he had not started the thread nobody would have known anything of my ride with him; the same as nobody know what I do every Sunday when I ride with my friends. Frank asked me in a private email if I had met Kendall for the ride. I said yes. But I NEVER tried to organise any sort of official climb to La Morcuera (nor I think kendall did) to show all you anything.

But I think Frank has been always very honest to me, and I am very grateful to him for inventing PowerCranks and make me enjoy my races over here, and to thank him for my improvements. I told him my doctors findings, so he knew it was not only my subjective perception. Also my doctor was impressed. I never intended to publish or claim anything (and thus never kept track of my files for a judge or scientist to come to any conclusion). Frank asked me if I would agree to tell Pez about my story (I did not even know what was Pez). I said yes. Full stop. In Spain I am not any famous at all (nobody here ever read the Pez article; just my wife)

But Frank (not you) deserve something to show he is honest; and it is very easy to do; I will organise a completelly objective test for him overe here. I will PM Alvaro and invite him to ride with me and let him state the data here. If you do not trust Alvaro, please let me know who you think is a completelly undoubtful witness you will accept (maybe a Spanish Cycling Federation judge). And again I will take the time exactly where he decides. It is up to you to do the calculations. (Or let me know any alternative protocol you would like me to do). For me is easy; just do another climb to La Morcuera, just half an hour away from home. I do not know if this will prove anything to you about the benefits of PowerCranks; and to speak the truth I do not care at all.

But this will prove that Frank is not manipulating anything, and he is honest ( I do not care what you think about me). You do not like Frank, I don't care. But to me he has been always nice and honest. And I am a fully satisfied customer.

I don think anyone of you has riden for two years exclusivelly on PowerCranks (over 10.000 miles) to know what happens inside our bodies to adapt to them. I do not know either. But I ride faster; much faster now than before. And I have been riding for about 20 years and racing both in Spain and Italy. I just care of the people I love (my familly and friends) and the people who know me. And over here none of these doubt about me.

Joaquin

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 4:20

Post #332 of 544 Views: 13556

In Reply To:

Not one the former powercranks users I know misses them. Not one of them has gotten slower.

So what you are saying that benefits gained from using PowerCranks are permanent! Wow! Sign me up!

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 7:37

Post #333 of 544 Views: 13490

In Reply To:

The data in my file is exactly the one I posted several weeks ago. If I recall right I even posted the MMC for the ride. All the data was in Km/h, and I have checked this morning and is exactly as I said. It has nothing to do with the data you post here. Something is wrong there.

You crack me up. No, the data IS NOT the same as you posted on 10/28. The only reason the speed and distance values I posted above are in mi/hr and miles is that I've got my version of CP set at a default of english units. That doesn't change the power or HR values. Here, to prove it to you, I changed the setting to metric and re-imported your file (the one you sent to me directly, it's not the one that Robert hosted, even though they are identical). Sorry...still wrong...and the MMP plots are different as well. I'm not going to bother posting that. Anyone with CP can import your file and see that's the case.

Duration: 28:39
Work: 617 kJ
Norm Power: 360
VI: 1
Distance: 8.767 km
Min Max Avg
Power: 299 539 359 watts
Heart rate: 174 184 182 bpm
Cadence: 66 90 72 rpm
Speed: 19 25.3 21.1 kph
Pace 2:22 3:09 2:51 min/km
Hub Torque: 17.5 29.8 20.6 lb-in
Crank Torque: 37.3 71.4 47.3 N-m

In Reply To:

And maybe thats why Robert asked me if the file he received was right because he got very strange results.

Umm...no. Robert's a nice guy, and that was his way of letting you know that it appeared that the file was physicianed...and giving you a chance to fess up before going public with it. But, no...you insisted it was correct.

In Reply To:

When I met Kendall I was never intending to do the climb at a max effort ...Let me repeat: I did not make up any data. I just rode up with Kendall and I didn't have any idea he intended to start this thread here. So I never intended to claim anything. If he had not started the thread nobody would have known anything of my ride with him; the same as nobody know what I do every Sunday when I ride with my friends. Frank asked me in a private email if I had met Kendall for the ride. I said yes. But I NEVER tried to organise any sort of official climb to La Morcuera (nor I think kendall did) to show all you anything.

Horse-hockey. This "test" has been in planning for months:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...%20morcuera;#1481955

In Reply To:

But Frank (not you) deserve something to show he is honest; and it is very easy to do; I will organise a completelly objective test for him overe here. I will PM Alvaro and invite him to ride with me and let him state the data here. If you do not trust Alvaro, please let me know who you think is a completelly undoubtful witness you will accept (maybe a Spanish Cycling Federation judge). And again I will take the time exactly where he decides. It is up to you to do the calculations. (Or let me know any alternative protocol you would like me to do). For me is easy; just do another climb to La Morcuera, just half an hour away from home. I do not know if this will prove anything to you about the benefits of PowerCranks; and to speak the truth I do not care at all.

Don't bother.

In Reply To:

But this will prove that Frank is not manipulating anything, and he is honest ( I do not care what you think about me).

You keep saying you don't care, yet you keep responding and claiming that this obviously forged file is "the truth"...but, as I demonstrated above, it doesn't even match your previous version of "the truth".

In Reply To:

You do not like Frank, I don't care.

Aah, see...that's not the case. I'm ambivalent about Frank as a person. I've never met him. However, I have no compunction about calling "bullshit" on statements and claims that he makes that are obviously incorrect. That goes for you too.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 7:49

Post #334 of 544 Views: 13481

"You crack me up. No, the data IS NOT the same as you posted on 10/28."

If I manipulated the data why would I be so stupid as to no even match the numbers I gave?

Why would I even give any numbers at all? Who cares if I do climb at 300; 320; 370 Watts. ANd if I cared at all about you I would manipulate everything from the beginning not even bothering to meet kendall. I would just manipulate any file up to 400 Watts or more; why not?

But you did not answer one question I made you before: is it possible to manipulate de data still stored in the CPU?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 8:30

Post #335 of 544 Views: 13452

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The data supports it in some ways, but is inconsistent in others so, hence, cannot be trusted and shouldn't be used either for or against the claim. Those who think this data proves he cannot do what he says he did or does are wrong.

I completely disagree. 1) The main file IS consistent (except for the climb), and the data from the climb are NOT 'inconsistent', they're clearly manipulated--that's a big difference.

By 'clearly manipulated', I mean that any reasonable person with a modicum of knowledge about 1) how a power tap records data and 2) statistics, would come to that conclusion. Several people here have, and the only alternate theory you've put forward is along the lines 'alien mind control has corrupted the data'. An 'interference loop' cause several, identical and nearly identical patterns?? You can't really think that's a reasonable explanation, can you?

I'm sure that many people here have seen power tap files where the head or hub has had problems, or there has been interference or connectivity issues. The files just don't look like this, ever.

I tend to be a follower of Occam in these matters, however, just for the sake of discussion, isn't there a piece of software involved in the transfer between the PT hub and the computer? If so it would be possible (although unlikely) that corrupt data could've sent the program in an error state where it would just keep repeating the same data over and over and over for values it wasn't able to read. This would be a pretty bad bug in the software (in this case it ought to just zero out whatever it can't read, or abort with an error) but however it'd be super easy to double check, as if somebody else tries to download the same data from the PT hub with the same version of the application it should give the same result.

The fact that the data in the PT hub became bogus only after the climb started could happen because possibly the PT decided to pack it in once the power/torque went above a certain level (unlikely to have been reached while riding there). Again, I am not saying this is what happened, but if it did it'd pretty easy to repro, just take the hub, redownload the data with the same version of the software, and either you'll get the same bogus file or maybe this time you won't hit the bug and you'll get the right file out: of course if the hub is sent away for servicing and/or is completely reset this won't be possible anymore.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 8:32

Post #336 of 544 Views: 13447

In Reply To:

If the data is inconsistent, either high, low or otherwise, the data is pretty much worthless for proving anything!

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.

The data is NOT inconsistent. The data before the climb is consistent, and the data on the climb is NOT inconsistent--it's consistent with being manipulated.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 8:39

Post #337 of 544 Views: 13438

In Reply To:

what claim is that? that I expect our typical new user can gain 40% in cycling power in 6-9 months of exclusive PC use? Yes, I still make that claim and I admit it has not been scientifically proven. It is an expectation based upon my own early testing and from feedback from users as to what many (most) achieve. Some see more and some, of course, see less. Oh, and at the same time we expect them to run substantially faster also, most will see about a minute per mile in their marathon pace in about 3 months.

So let me get this straight. Your claim is that a "new user" can gain 40%? Not an untrained athlete? So if I put down my hard earned income I'll go from a FTP in the 280-290 range to something in the 380-390 range despite years of training? And I'll be able to run a marathon 30 minutes faster?

I can see this for an untrained athlete, but not for a trained one. Choice of words is important. No way, no how would a trained athlete gain 40%. An untrained athlete most certainly could gain that much, but all that takes is dedicated training. I.e., you can get there on proper training and not gizmos.

So which is it - "new user" or "untrained athlete"?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Marco in BC] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 8:50

Post #338 of 544 Views: 13428

In Reply To:

just for the sake of discussion, isn't there a piece of software involved in the transfer between the PT hub and the computer? If so it would be possible (although unlikely) that corrupt data could've sent the program in an error state where it would just keep repeating the same data over and over and over for values it wasn't able to read.

The fact that the data in the PT hub became bogus only after the climb started could happen because possibly the PT decided to pack it in once the power/torque went above a certain level (unlikely to have been reached while riding there). Again, I am not saying this is what happened, but if it did it'd pretty easy to repro, just take the hub, redownload the data with the same version of the software, and either you'll get the same bogus file or maybe this time you won't hit the bug and you'll get the right file out: of course if the hub is sent away for servicing and/or is completely reset this won't be possible anymore.

Nice try--but not quite (and I realize you're just playing devil's advocate here). 2 problems: 1) there are earlier sections of the ride with high power where the hub acts normally, and 2) while the data are identical in some sections, in other sections they're 'almost' identical, i.e. the power pattern repeats itself, but some of the other numbers may or may not repeat themselves. IOW, someone changed a couple of pieces in an attempt to 'not make it look like a clear cut and paste'. For me, THIS is the most obvious reason that the data are faked, and not an artifact of the PT. If you look closely at the raw data, you'll see exactly what I mean.

EDIT: oh yeah, and 3) if this were a software glitch, I think it's pretty likely that someone, somewhere, would have experienced or witnessed this before. I'm sure the folks contributing to this thread/comedy have seen a combined number of 'Tap files numbering in the 10's of thousands--and yet this is the first case--and the glitch just so happens to match up with a desired result?

Last edited by: roady: Nov 22, 07 8:55

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 9:02

Post #339 of 544 Views: 13418

In Reply To:

Frank, I see that you are finally in the "anger" stage. It even sounds as if you've progressed along to "bargaining"...but, I think you may be directing your anger in the wrong places. Don't shoot the messenger(s).

Anger stage? Not quite. Bemused perhaps. Hey, sh$# happens. Especially if one is collecting data. This is not quite the same as the laboratory losing an important tissue sample that was difficult to obtain. This is just a drop in the PC data bucket. It would have been nice if all the data was reliable but it isn't. And, if the data is still in Joaquin's CPU so it will be possible to prove, it would seem, as to whether the data was manipulated and/or, what the real data is, since it would seem impossible to change the data stored in the unit. Wouldn't it be interesting if the data came out exactly as presented by Joaquin or, even if different, confirms what he said he performed. Who would have egg on their face then? Even if manipulation was demonstrated I had nothing to do with it. And, besides, it is simply on ST. There may be 5 people posting negative things about Joaquin and there might be 100 people, 200 max, who will see this thread. What is to get angry about? Even if everything had been perfect in this data I doubt this would have sold you a set of cranks.

I can only think of one time when I really got mad at something like this. Many years ago I had a well known pro who I had given a set of PowerCranks to who stated he was embarrassed that I would refer to him as a PowerCranker after he won his first world championship (even though I had been doing so for three years, it was only after he won Kona that this became an issue), despite the fact we had been in regular e-mail contact for 3 years talking about his use of the product. That experience really made me mad and changed my relationship with every pro subsequently.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 22, 07 9:03

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 9:11

Post #340 of 544 Views: 13406

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

just for the sake of discussion, isn't there a piece of software involved in the transfer between the PT hub and the computer? If so it would be possible (although unlikely) that corrupt data could've sent the program in an error state where it would just keep repeating the same data over and over and over for values it wasn't able to read.

The fact that the data in the PT hub became bogus only after the climb started could happen because possibly the PT decided to pack it in once the power/torque went above a certain level (unlikely to have been reached while riding there). Again, I am not saying this is what happened, but if it did it'd pretty easy to repro, just take the hub, redownload the data with the same version of the software, and either you'll get the same bogus file or maybe this time you won't hit the bug and you'll get the right file out: of course if the hub is sent away for servicing and/or is completely reset this won't be possible anymore.

Nice try--but not quite (and I realize you're just playing devil's advocate here). 2 problems: 1) there are earlier sections of the ride with high power where the hub acts normally, and 2) while the data are identical in some sections, in other sections they're 'almost' identical, i.e. the power pattern repeats itself, but some of the other numbers may or may not repeat themselves. IOW, someone changed a couple of pieces in an attempt to 'not make it look like a clear cut and paste'. For me, THIS is the most obvious reason that the data are faked, and not an artifact of the PT. If you look closely at the raw data, you'll see exactly what I mean.

EDIT: oh yeah, and 3) if this were a software glitch, I think it's pretty likely that someone, somewhere, would have experienced or witnessed this before. I'm sure the folks contributing to this thread/comedy have seen a combined number of 'Tap files numbering in the 10's of thousands--and yet this is the first case--and the glitch just so happens to match up with a desired result?

regarding (3), I have worked in software development for nearly 10 years, and you wouldn't believe sometimes the strange issues you could get: once we hit a very strange bug in a piece of software that I was writing that happened only on one of 10 supposedly identical lab machines (identical meaning they had the exact same OS installed, patches, hard drives, memory, etc. etc.), so just the fact that it's never happened before is not enough to say it couldn't have... again, not saying it's likely, just that you can't say it's impossible.

Regarding 1 & 2, I have never looked at a PT file before, so I doubt I could bring any expertise to the table: from the graphs that were plotted it looked as if the cyclical data (repeating blocks) were exactly the same, hence why I was wondering if it was a software glitch where the program mistakenly did something like 'ok, get the block of data, oops we hit a bug, write out the previous block of data we have read again (instead of saying there is an error)'. I also didn't realize that there were high power sections before, from the graphs it looked like maybe there were a couple of spikes, but nothing like a sustained high power effort like a climb would be...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 9:13

Post #341 of 544 Views: 13403

Man, Frank, I had to pay for my powercranks, and have been positive about them. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 9:28

Post #342 of 544 Views: 13387

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

what claim is that? that I expect our typical new user can gain 40% in cycling power in 6-9 months of exclusive PC use? Yes, I still make that claim and I admit it has not been scientifically proven. It is an expectation based upon my own early testing and from feedback from users as to what many (most) achieve. Some see more and some, of course, see less. Oh, and at the same time we expect them to run substantially faster also, most will see about a minute per mile in their marathon pace in about 3 months.

So let me get this straight. Your claim is that a "new user" can gain 40%? Not an untrained athlete? So if I put down my hard earned income I'll go from a FTP in the 280-290 range to something in the 380-390 range despite years of training? And I'll be able to run a marathon 30 minutes faster?

I can see this for an untrained athlete, but not for a trained one. Choice of words is important. No way, no how would a trained athlete gain 40%. An untrained athlete most certainly could gain that much, but all that takes is dedicated training. I.e., you can get there on proper training and not gizmos.

So which is it - "new user" or "untrained athlete"?

Yes, our "typical" new user are trained athletes all. Why don't you see what some of them have reported, I am sure you will find someone there who has similar abilities to yourself before PC's.

http://www.powercranks.com/...stimonialsdialup.mov

Untrained athletes will see much bigger improvements (there is one on our testimonials - she reported a tripling of her power). So, if you are an elite (they are not our typical customer, although we have a lot of them using them) it is not likely you will see 40%. But if you are now at an FTP of 280-290 if would not surprise me if you could be at an FTP of 350 in 1 year. Joaquin went from an FTP of 280 to 390 in one year (per his doctors testing), but I wouldn't think everyone would see that who is at that level. Of course, the caveat is one must use the cranks exclusively in training. That is what Joaquin did. If you don't, all bets are off.

Regarding running. The improvements again depend upon your current ability. Someone currently running about a 3:10 marathon is likely to see about 15 minute improvement (that is what Tom Evans saw) while 20-30 minutes is more typical for our 4 hour customers. Here is another video link. Again, you might find someone of your capability there and see what they reported.

http://www.powercranks.com/...stimonialsdialup.mov

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 11:39

Post #343 of 544 Views: 13305

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If the data is inconsistent, either high, low or otherwise, the data is pretty much worthless for proving anything!

You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true.

The data is NOT inconsistent. The data before the climb is consistent, and the data on the climb is NOT inconsistent--it's consistent with being manipulated.

OK, the data is consistent with being manipulated. It is also consistent with other sources of error.

The data is pretty consistent before the climb but not perfect. The data for the climb is very flawed but there are parts of that data that are consistent with what is claimed. There are other parts that seem "inflated" above what is claimed. Anyhow, in my opinion, the data is worthless for proving anything as regards this ride or Joaquin's abilities.

Some have determined he had to manipulate the data and give as his motivation that he needed to stroke his ego. Perhaps. However, many here have claimed that my claims for my product are impossible and Joaquin is someone who has claimed (and given evidence) the claims are true, even at a very good level. I see a motivation here to discredit him however it must be done because, if it can't be done, that means they have been proven ignorant and wrong in the past so not much they say in the future can be relied upon. Who has the greater motivation here to "manipulate" the interpretation of the data?

In some ways I am actually surprised that any athletes come forward with data. The advantages of the product are so huge why would anyone want the competition to know about it? This has been an issue for us from the beginning. We have recently been approached by an intermediary for some big name pro on a major pro-tour team who wants to get on the cranks for a discount but wants to remain anonymous. If he wants to remain anonymous he can pay full price and have a friend buy them for him. We have heard of others who have done that. Now, I don't know who this guy is (I can guess) but why on earth would someone of this stature want to get on this product if they didn't think there might be an advantage to it? I doubt we would increase his power 40% but any improvement at his level is a big deal. So, Joaquin comes along and those here who have staked their reputation on the "sure knowledge" that pedaling style doesn't make a difference have a great deal to lose if what he has done is actually "proven" to be true. Best way to try to do that is to try to humiliate him such that he just wants to disappear into the woodwork. All it has done, it seems, is make him mad.

The truth will come out. It just isn't going to come out with this data.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 11:51

Post #344 of 544 Views: 13296

In Reply To:

Untrained athletes will see much bigger improvements (there is one on our testimonials - she reported a tripling of her power). So, if you are an elite (they are not our typical customer, although we have a lot of them using them) it is not likely you will see 40%. But if you are now at an FTP of 280-290 if would not surprise me if you could be at an FTP of 350 in 1 year. Joaquin went from an FTP of 280 to 390 in one year (per his doctors testing)... [blah blah blah]

LOL. You keep repeating this uncorroborated shite. Pure marketing BS. Do you take us for fools? Haha

For entertainment value, though, this thread is pure gold. Please carry on with the spin. :D

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 13:15

Post #345 of 544 Views: 13249

okay so how about a 90kg bloke in his early 30's with an FTP of 450W? What's his potential then? (not me BTW!).

I'm talking real watts now. Not JoaquinWatts (^TM).

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 14:58

Post #346 of 544 Views: 13194

In Reply To:

The data for the climb is very flawed but there are parts of that data that are consistent with what is claimed.

... and that's the point ...

xav

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 15:05

Post #347 of 544 Views: 13187

In Reply To:

okay so how about a 90kg bloke in his early 30's with an FTP of 450W? What's his potential then? (not me BTW!).

I'm talking real watts now. Not JoaquinWatts (^TM).

I have no clue but one might ask Magnus Backstedt how much improvement he has seen from training with them. I suspect it was at least a little bit as I understand he is still a fan and is still using them.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 15:22

Post #348 of 544 Views: 13173

So, Joaquin comes along and those here who have staked their reputation on the "sure knowledge" that pedaling style doesn't make a difference have a great deal to lose if what he has done is actually "proven" to be true.[/reply]

Pedaling style does make a difference but the problem here is that a PC rider is forced to use the "ankling" technique which is an extreme version of the circular style, this explains the low cadence and he is able to generate some power around the circle with each leg. As he gets accustomed to the PC's, his cadence will increase but his ability to generate additional power around the circle will decrease and when eventually he returns to normal cranks, he will have perfected the normal circular technique which is less powerful than the mashing style. It's as simple as that and except for a rider who has an awkward pedaling style or does not unweight, there is nowhere to gain additional power. Can you specify one area in the pedaling circle where it would be possible to generate extra power. As for the improvement in running, there is a simple explanation for that, PC's are a form of resistance training, some use water for this purpose to improve their running.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Laflore] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 15:41

Post #349 of 544 Views: 13160

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Untrained athletes will see much bigger improvements (there is one on our testimonials - she reported a tripling of her power). So, if you are an elite (they are not our typical customer, although we have a lot of them using them) it is not likely you will see 40%. But if you are now at an FTP of 280-290 if would not surprise me if you could be at an FTP of 350 in 1 year. Joaquin went from an FTP of 280 to 390 in one year (per his doctors testing)... [blah blah blah]

LOL. You keep repeating this uncorroborated shite. Pure marketing BS. Do you take us for fools? Haha

For entertainment value, though, this thread is pure gold. Please carry on with the spin. :D

Could I ask you a question or two?

Do you think you have some special insight into "pure hype" that you feel you need to protect the rest of the world (who lack this special factor) from marketing charlatan's like me?

Do you not find it just a little bit unusual that of the many people who have actually plunked down money for these things are not on here complaining about about how the product performs.

Let me give you a little history as I have been doing this for awhile. You are not the first to think by claims complete BS. Most of the most vocal naysayers are absolutely certain they are. However, I can think, right off the top of my head, at least two instances where the most vocal naysayers at the time agreed to a test of them. People thought I was crazy as I would surely be proven wrong. But, I was confident the product would perform well so I took the "chance". They would use them as I recommend and they would report back regularly to the group. The first was Phil Holman on the rec.bicycles.tech / racing listserve. You can look it up. He was a track racer and in 7 months he improved his pursuit speed from 30 to 32 mph and his top speed from 35 to 38 mph and won a bronze medal at masters track worlds.

The second was TTN on this very site. Unfortunately it was done on the old list and it has been lost so you can't see the thread, but he is still around and can confirm everything (or correct me if I am wrong). I gave him a set of cranks for him to use for his evaluation with the caveat that if he liked them he had to buy them. It took him a total of about 3 weeks to determine to buy them.

Now, if you want to prove me wrong, and demonstrate how wonderful your knowledge in this area really is I suggest you buy a pair and do a very open evaluation of them and see what they do for you. You can send them back in 3 months and your "proving me wrong" won't cost you anything but time. Many, I am sure, have bought them with that intention. No one, to my knowledge, who has used them anywhere close to as I recommend, has ever had a negative result. Do a search, maybe you can find one. Or, maybe you will be the first.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 15:55

Post #350 of 544 Views: 13150

In Reply To:

So, Joaquin comes along and those here who have staked their reputation on the "sure knowledge" that pedaling style doesn't make a difference have a great deal to lose if what he has done is actually "proven" to be true.[/reply]

Pedaling style does make a difference but the problem here is that a PC rider is forced to use the "ankling" technique which is an extreme version of the circular style, this explains the low cadence and he is able to generate some power around the circle with each leg. As he gets accustomed to the PC's, his cadence will increase but his ability to generate additional power around the circle will decrease and when eventually he returns to normal cranks, he will have perfected the normal circular technique which is less powerful than the mashing style. It's as simple as that and except for a rider who has an awkward pedaling style or does not unweight, there is nowhere to gain additional power. Can you specify one area in the pedaling circle where it would be possible to generate extra power. As for the improvement in running, there is a simple explanation for that, PC's are a form of resistance training, some use water for this purpose to improve their running.

Oh, phooey. If only you (and may others) knew what you were talking about when you talk about PC's. Again. PC'ers aren't "forced" to do anything except completely unweight on the upstroke. Other than that they can pedal in any "style" they wish including "mashing" (emphasizing the down stroke).

In my opinion, the part of the pedaling stroke where the most potential additional power lies is at the top of the stroke. A traditional "dead spot" for which a large muscle (the quads) would be the prime contributor here.

Yes, water running and PC's have similar effects. Only a couple of differences. PC's don't require a pool. Water running will probably have little effect on your cycling. And, it is hard to get in 1-3 hours a day in water running and do any other training (like swimming, or cycling, or actual running) if one is a triathlete. Time is your most precious resource. If one can accomplish 2 tasks at the same time, much is to be gained.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:10

Post #351 of 544 Views: 13549

You know, I'm having a crappy day (my car got broken into) and I've been drinkng a little bit, so I'm just gonna be blunt here:

Frank, what the F**k is wrong with you?

Seriously - if you worked for me, and posted the nonsense you have been putting up lately, and had my company name in your masthead, you would get the boot in about 5 seconds.

I literally don't think that it would be possible for you to diminish your reputation and credibility in a more effective manner than you have manifested in this thread, and it defies logic that an intelligent person such as yourself would persist in such an insane effort at self-immolation...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:14

Post #352 of 544 Views: 13549

In Reply To:

Yes, water running and PC's have similar effects. Only a couple of differences. PC's don't require a pool. Water running will probably have little effect on your cycling. And, it is hard to get in 1-3 hours a day in water running and do any other training (like swimming, or cycling, or actual running) if one is a triathlete. Time is your most precious resource. If one can accomplish 2 tasks at the same time, much is to be gained.

Funny you should mention that. From an article in today's NYTimes:

Quote:

Even exercises that seem similar are rarely similar enough, Dr. Coyle added. Some injured runners run in a pool, wearing a vest. That, Dr. Coyle said, is not the same as running on land. In fact, it is more like bicycling because it uses the quadriceps muscles to push against the water.

Yes, that's Ed Coyle.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:34

Post #353 of 544 Views: 13526

Guess it is a good thing I don't work for you, or that you don't work for me. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:40

Post #354 of 544 Views: 13519

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Yes, water running and PC's have similar effects. Only a couple of differences. PC's don't require a pool. Water running will probably have little effect on your cycling. And, it is hard to get in 1-3 hours a day in water running and do any other training (like swimming, or cycling, or actual running) if one is a triathlete. Time is your most precious resource. If one can accomplish 2 tasks at the same time, much is to be gained.

Funny you should mention that. From an article in today's NYTimes:

Quote:

Even exercises that seem similar are rarely similar enough, Dr. Coyle added. Some injured runners run in a pool, wearing a vest. That, Dr. Coyle said, is not the same as running on land. In fact, it is more like bicycling because it uses the quadriceps muscles to push against the water.

Yes, that's Ed Coyle.

From my perspective, the advantage of running in water is the additional training of the HF and hamstring muscles in a non-impact environment as lifting the knee requires substantial activation of the HF muscles and pulling the foot back the hamstrings, especially with the added resistance of the water. PC's offer the same advantages. Running in water has little to do with running form IMHO although it is possible to put some attention to this also, but most probably do a bad job at it.

I would disagree with Coyle as I don't see where the quads are used to any significant degree while running in water, at least as I understand it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:44

Post #355 of 544 Views: 13517

.
In my opinion, the part of the pedaling stroke where the most potential additional power lies is at the top of the stroke. A traditional "dead spot" for which a large muscle (the quads) would be the prime contributor here.
[/reply]

Yes that's correct, it's possible to apply max power in this area and it's done mainly with the hips but in your case it's not possible because you are using vertical pressure as your main power supplier to the pedal, this makes any effective power application between 11 and 1 o'c almost impossible with the higher cadences.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:51

Post #356 of 544 Views: 13511

Frank, I would never work for you. Not for all the money in the world.

Oh, and edit to add:

I would also never hire you; frankly, you don't meet the ethical standard required.

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Last edited by: fredly: Nov 22, 07 16:54

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 16:59

Post #357 of 544 Views: 13500

In Reply To:

.
In my opinion, the part of the pedaling stroke where the most potential additional power lies is at the top of the stroke. A traditional "dead spot" for which a large muscle (the quads) would be the prime contributor here.
[/reply]

Yes that's correct, it's possible to apply max power in this area and it's done mainly with the hips but in your case it's not possible because you are using vertical pressure as your main power supplier to the pedal, this makes any effective power application between 11 and 1 o'c almost impossible with the higher cadences.

It's not possible with PC's? Everything is possible with PC's, as long as you can fully unweight on the upstroke. First you get the benefit of the increase power from simply unweighting, then one can work on the other aspects of the stroke. LOL

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 17:00

Post #358 of 544 Views: 13498

In Reply To:

I would disagree with Coyle as I don't see where the quads are used to any significant degree while running in water, at least as I understand it.

Why am I not surprised? You clearly know more about exercise physiology better than anyone I've ever heard.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 17:00

Post #359 of 544 Views: 13497

In Reply To:

Frank, I would never work for you. Not for all the money in the world.

Oh, and edit to add:

I would also never hire you; frankly, you don't meet the ethical standard required.

.

Not low enough?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 17:22

Post #360 of 544 Views: 13484

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

okay so how about a 90kg bloke in his early 30's with an FTP of 450W? What's his potential then? (not me BTW!).

I'm talking real watts now. Not JoaquinWatts (^TM).

I have no clue but one might ask Magnus Backstedt how much improvement he has seen from training with them. I suspect it was at least a little bit as I understand he is still a fan and is still using them.

Is this a photo of Magnus at his team's recent training camp on a bike with regular cranks and a PowerTap? CycleOps is one of their sponsors.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 17:22

Post #361 of 544 Views: 13488

"Not low enough? "

Well Frank, I have hired more than one convicted felon, and I worked side by side with a convicted murderer for a while - and all of them exhibited a greater level of honesty and integrity than you do on this forum.

I know you're going to laugh this off, and I'm sure even this is great for your sales, but I honestly wonder if you ever give any thought to just what a colossal ass you have become? Seriously - do you ever have trouble looking in the mirror, or has your level of delusion become so pervasive that your psyche is completely devoid of any kind of introspective moderating element?

It really has been kind of amazing to watch you devolve from cantankerous maverick inventor to raving quack snake-oil salesman over the course of several years.

AS flippant as it sounds, my "what the f**k" question was essentially sincere; you've managed to turn yourself into a joke (literally,) and I just can't imagine what that must feel like...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 17:51

Post #362 of 544 Views: 13475

It's not possible with PC's? Everything is possible with PC's, as long as you can fully unweight on the upstroke. First you get the benefit of the increase power from simply unweighting, then one can work on the other aspects of the stroke. LOL[/reply]

No you can't, it can only be done when you are using an extended main power stroke with power applied in the same direction from 11 to 5, you don't have time to switch power application direction as would be necessary with the circular or PC style. I would also disagree with Coyle.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 18:46

Post #363 of 544 Views: 13454

In Reply To:

"Not low enough? "

Well Frank, I have hired more than one convicted felon, and I worked side by side with a convicted murderer for a while - and all of them exhibited a greater level of honesty and integrity than you do on this forum.

I know you're going to laugh this off, and I'm sure even this is great for your sales, but I honestly wonder if you ever give any thought to just what a colossal ass you have become? Seriously - do you ever have trouble looking in the mirror, or has your level of delusion become so pervasive that your psyche is completely devoid of any kind of introspective moderating element?

It really has been kind of amazing to watch you devolve from cantankerous maverick inventor to raving quack snake-oil salesman over the course of several years.

AS flippant as it sounds, my "what the f**k" question was essentially sincere; you've managed to turn yourself into a joke (literally,) and I just can't imagine what that must feel like...

.

Hey my man, I went to the US Naval Academy. The highest ethical standard was at the core of what we were taught there. Similarly at medical school. I remain what I was taught.

Please give me one specific example of where I have been dishonest or unethical in any way. If I have been so I will either apologize or correct it. The "fact" that you do not believe what I say or claim is not true does not make me unethical. If you have evidence that what I say or claim is not true please present it and I will change it. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 18:50

Post #364 of 544 Views: 13453

In Reply To:

It's not possible with PC's? Everything is possible with PC's, as long as you can fully unweight on the upstroke. First you get the benefit of the increase power from simply unweighting, then one can work on the other aspects of the stroke. LOL[/reply]

No you can't, it can only be done when you are using an extended main power stroke with power applied in the same direction from 11 to 5, you don't have time to switch power application direction as would be necessary with the circular or PC style. I would also disagree with Coyle.

So, you are saying that the fact that PowerCranks force the user to "unweight" somehow prevents them from "using an extended main power stroke with power applied in the same direction from 11 to 5"? Well, I don't get it but then, I have never "gotten" pretty much anything you have said.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 18:57

Post #365 of 544 Views: 13447

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

okay so how about a 90kg bloke in his early 30's with an FTP of 450W? What's his potential then? (not me BTW!).

I'm talking real watts now. Not JoaquinWatts (^TM).

I have no clue but one might ask Magnus Backstedt how much improvement he has seen from training with them. I suspect it was at least a little bit as I understand he is still a fan and is still using them.

Is this a photo of Magnus at his team's recent training camp on a bike with regular cranks and a PowerTap? CycleOps is one of their sponsors.

Your point? Did you expect him to have a picture taken at a team training camp using the product of a non-sponsor? Get real.

Magnus had agreed to ride the Silverman relay this year on PowerCranks if there had been a relay for the money. There wasn't. If there had been perhaps we would have a picture or two of him using them in an actual competition. We don't.

Again, your point?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:20

Post #366 of 544 Views: 13436

"Please give me one specific example of where I have been dishonest or unethical in any way. If I have been so I will either apologize or correct it."

Frank, you never cease to amaze.

Your single most gratuitous offense on this site is your continued refusal to ever admit to a wrong of any sort; to my mind, this gratuitous intellectual dishonesty is as immoral and unethical as it gets - and certainly not a credit to the institution(s) you cite.

Time after time, you have been called to the carpet on falsehoods, misrepresentation, and most recently blatant forgery of data by a surrogate, and far from "apologizing or correct(ing)," you have blustered, bluffed, changed the argument around, or/and refused to recognize or admit to, well, anything.

At a certain point, one really begins to wonder if you are merely putting us all on, or if your online persona is truly reflective of the man behind the keyboard, whether there is some underlying pathology that might explain all this...

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:26

Post #367 of 544 Views: 13434

In Reply To:

"Please give me one specific example of where I have been dishonest or unethical in any way. If I have been so I will either apologize or correct it."

Frank, you never cease to amaze.

Your single most gratuitous offense on this site is your continued refusal to ever admit to a wrong of any sort; to my mind, this gratuitous intellectual dishonesty is as immoral and unethical as it gets - and certainly not a credit to the institution(s) you cite.

Time after time, you have been called to the carpet on falsehoods, misrepresentation, and most recently blatant forgery of data by a surrogate, and far from "apologizing or correct(ing)," you have blustered, bluffed, changed the argument around, or/and refused to recognize or admit to, well, anything.

At a certain point, one really begins to wonder if you are merely putting us all on, or if your online persona is truly reflective of the man behind the keyboard, whether there is some underlying pathology that might explain all this....

All I asked for was a specific instance of an actual ethical failure. You have failed in that regard. That fact that someone or, even, everyone, has called me on the carpet for supposed failures does not make them true. Give me a specific instance you can point to where I failed to act ethically and if it is true I will correct it or apologize for the failure.

Continuing to amaze you I am sure.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:35

Post #368 of 544 Views: 13427

In Reply To:

Your point? Did you expect him to have a picture taken at a team training camp using the product of a non-sponsor? Get real.[/quote]
You are too funny. There he is, in Liquigas kit, at a Slipstream-Chipolte training camp, and you suggest he wouldn't dare to be seen with something from a non-sponsor?

The point was that here's your main man (according to you), not using your product but rather with a power meter; consider that in light of your dismissing the use of power in training because "it hasn't been proven". Ah, the irony.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:46

Post #369 of 544 Views: 13420

"That fact that someone or, even, everyone, has called me on the carpet for supposed failures does not make them true."

According to you, Frank, they're never true. Ever. Even when they are - perhaps most particularly when they are - true.

I'm actually not terribly interested in debating with you further... or at all, to be honest. You have answered my initial question, and really, that's all I was looking for.

Your reality is a place into which no light may enter.

Good luck with that.

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:49

Post #370 of 544 Views: 13414

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Your point? Did you expect him to have a picture taken at a team training camp using the product of a non-sponsor? Get real.[/quote]
You are too funny. There he is, in Liquigas kit, at a Slipstream-Chipolte training camp, and you suggest he wouldn't dare to be seen with something from a non-sponsor?

The point was that here's your main man (according to you), not using your product but rather with a power meter; consider that in light of your dismissing the use of power in training because "it hasn't been proven". Ah, the irony.

Huh, Magnus is our main man? Over the likes of Bettini and many others.

That picture was taken at the slipstream camp? Really?

Anyhow, I am not sure what you are hoping to "prove" by showing a picture of one of our athletes training on regular cranks. I think the vast majority of them do not use them exclusively despite my recommendations. Magnus has told us he has ridden them for as long as 6 hours and he likes training on them on the cobbles in preparation for PR and he is one of the few pros nice enough to actually send us a picture of himself with the cranks. So what is your point?

(edit: and regarding the power meter. I don't deny they could be useful. All I asked for is just one scientific study that "proves" that training with one is superior to training using other methods of evaluating effort. It doesn't exist. That is what is asked of me and we actually have one. That is all I am pointing out. There is a double standard here)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 22, 07 20:00

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 19:54

Post #371 of 544 Views: 13409

In Reply To:

"That fact that someone or, even, everyone, has called me on the carpet for supposed failures does not make them true."

According to you, Frank, they're never true. Ever. Even when they are - perhaps most particularly when they are - true.

If you can demonstrate to me that what I am saying or claiming to not be true beyond it goes beyond what you believe to be true then I will admit my mistake and correct it. that is all I am asking for, a specific instance in which I have had an ethical failure (and failing to admit to a mistake I would take as an ethical failure).

In Reply To:

I'm actually not terribly interested in debating with you further... or at all, to be honest. You have answered my initial question, and really, that's all I was looking for.

Your reality is a place into which no light may enter.

Good luck with that. .

Your failure to submit a single specific example makes me stronger. Thanks for that.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 20:12

Post #372 of 544 Views: 13398

"Your failure to submit a single specific example makes me stronger. Thanks for that. "

Yeah. Of course it does.

You're welcome.

.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 20:21

Post #373 of 544 Views: 13392

In Reply To:

Your failure to submit a single specific example makes me stronger. Thanks for that.

OK, I will. You claim that 'most users' can expect a 40% gain in power, and you also claim that most of your users are trained athletes. This, of course, is complete bullshit. And, of course, you can't provide a single case study where a well-trained athlete has experienced a 40% increase. NOT ONE. Yet MOST USERS will experience this gain? How the hell is that possible?

I know--Joaquin--or that 11 year old girl that was going to beat Lance up Ventoux or whatever....

It's funny. Most of your 'detractors' seem to think that you're an idiot or a scam artist--or both. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and just think that your passion for your product just manifests itself in a perfect demonstration of every cognitive bias ever defined. However, in your responses in this thread, you're really doing your best to prove me wrong.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 21:10

Post #374 of 544 Views: 13368

After you get Frank to say uncle, your next mission, if you accept it, will be to get Dave to admit that short cranks work as well for him as 200mm cranks.

By the way, what had been a rather stunning "gotcha' has now been obfuscated by several pages of "you are"/"no you are." (Not blaming you, and sorry about your car being broken into.)
.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 21:14

Post #375 of 544 Views: 13365

[/quote]
. Magnus has told us he has ridden them for as long as 6 hours and he likes training on them on the cobbles in preparation for PR and he is one of the few pros nice enough to actually send us a picture of himself with the cranks. So what is your point?[/reply] Post them up. It would be simple to prove that Maggie uses them.

______________
HEDmafia.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 22:41

Post #376 of 544 Views: 14415

In Reply To:

The data for the climb is very flawed but there are parts of that data that are consistent with what is claimed. [..] I see a motivation here to discredit [Joaquin] however it must be done [..] Who has the greater motivation here to "manipulate" the interpretation of the data?

Frank, I was trying to stay out of this any further, but you've dragged me back in. Are you saying that my analysis of the file was biased in order to discredit either you or Joaquin "however it must be done?" Had that been my goal, I surely would not have stopped when I did because what you've seen so far is not the entirety of what I looked at, and the oddities I've pointed out are not the only problems I've found. I held back for two reasons: first, it gave me no pleasure to point out the flaws in this file; and second, there's no sense in beating a very, very dead horse. That is not the behavior of someone who is trying to discredit you "however it must be done." However, since you brought it up, I will ask you to consider your own question: of the two of us, who has the greater motivation to "manipulate" the interpretation of the data?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 22, 07 23:38

Post #377 of 544 Views: 14398

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Frank, I see that you are finally in the "anger" stage. It even sounds as if you've progressed along to "bargaining"...but, I think you may be directing your anger in the wrong places. Don't shoot the messenger(s).

Anger stage? Not quite. Bemused perhaps. Hey, sh$# happens. Especially if one is collecting data. This is not quite the same as the laboratory losing an important tissue sample that was difficult to obtain. This is just a drop in the PC data bucket.

Just how big are buckets where you come? Are they really thimble-sized? I sure as heck wouldn't like to be bailing out a leaking boat with one of your Frank Day PC-buckets <TM>.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 1:58

Post #378 of 544 Views: 14370

I see Magnus out training fairly frequently. Everytime he passes me or approaches from the other direction, i only ever see him using SRMs. I've never seen him use Power Cranks. Every photo i see of him in racing or training he has normal cranks on, or SRMs.

I used to live about 5 km from him. I probably live about 20 km from him now, and see him fairly regularly (it's difficult to miss someone so big!)

ric

http://www.cyclecoach.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Ric_Stern] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 4:09

Post #379 of 544 Views: 14337

So your anti-PC delusion is so strong you're seeing SRMs when his cranks are actually PCs? Maybe you should get yourself examined.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [duncan] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:04

Post #380 of 544 Views: 14294

They're obviously the SRM powercranks prototype. Only Maggie gets them being a pro and all.

______________
HEDmafia.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [HH] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:05

Post #381 of 544 Views: 14294

Sorry, I do have the data to show my longer cranks have made me faster up the hills, IMO. You can look at my data,
and try to find where I "changed" it if you want. So, do the analysis of the data that I posted the link to.
For both the longer cranks, and when I started to use the PC's. Here is your chance to show, by the data,
that I did not get faster with longer cranks on my 30 mile hill ride, or did not get faster running when riding the PC's.
I wonder why no one has taken this opportunity to prove I am wrong, so I can eat crow.

http://www.h2ofun.net/...pbellTrainingLog.xls

I am serious wanting to have folks look at the data. Since, I may be totally out to lunch, but here is a chance,
with data, to prove your points.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Last edited by: h2ofun: Nov 23, 07 6:07

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:10

Post #382 of 544 Views: 14284

LOL! The link doesn't work!

http://www.h2ofun.net/...pbellTrainingLog.xls

That's VERY PowerCranks of you! (TM)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 23, 07 6:11

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [cslone] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:12

Post #383 of 544 Views: 14280

I still offer to Frank and Andrew that I would be glad to test out the SRM/PC combo, and see what my training does.
Frank, I am game. Want to loan me some? I could do PC's and longer cranks all at one time.
With adjustable cranks, I could try my route with 170', 175, 180,...., 200 and see what happens.
I just want to be the fastest I can, and if using 150s do this, on my bike they will be.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:16

Post #384 of 544 Views: 14273

Lets try again.

http://www.h2ofun.net/...pbellTrainingLog.xls

Again, I have no bias to anything. If things I use do not work, for me, I change faster than the wind.
So, I really am interested in my data being looked at since, w/o doing some control charts, my times
seem to show to me they have helped. But, this could just be another senior moment.
So, again, I am serious, lets look at the data honestly, and let me know. I reallly have nothing
to eat crow on, but I never have an issue doing this is if makes folks happy. (I use this strategy in life
all the time, since it does seem to help others egos. Smile

Smile

)

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:20

Post #385 of 544 Views: 14268

Here is another post I made on the race training thread that no one took my offer up on.

Another thing you can see is when I got hurt with my sports hernia on 4/22 and basically
stopped doing any run training. This is when I restarted using the PC's. Again,
Started PC's, basically stopped running except in races, kept running, for me,
great run times, and as can been seen, have improved my running times a lot, IMO
for my age and how little running I do!

On 12/25/2006 you can see I went to longer cranks. Do a pre and post 30 mile hill loop
ride, and lets see what the data says. Again, I am ready to change if I am all wet.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Ric_Stern] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 6:22

Post #386 of 544 Views: 14264

Here is my picture of my commute bike with PC's on, so there is no question I use them. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 7:38

Post #387 of 544 Views: 14225

Well, I brief review (and by brief, I mean BRIEF) of your charts shows me one thing: training more makes a person faster. Your training time hasn't gone down, even though you aren't running as much (so you keep reminding us). How do you know it wasn't the increase in swimming that made you faster starting in January? Or maybe it was the increased time on the bike, PC's or not?

Also, from weeks 1-15, you were only averaging 15.3-15.4 miles per week running. Weeks 16-47 you were averaging almost 11 miles per week running. That's HARDLY a big drop in mileage to say over and over again how little you've been running compared to before. Last year (for the whole year) you only averaged 15.4 miles per week running.

You averaged 68 miles per week for all of 2006 on your bike, but over 90 miles per week so far in 2007 on your bike.

You averaged over 4.1 hours per week in the pool in 2007, 2006 only got about 2.5 hours per week in the pool, 2005 only found you in the pool .95 hours per week.

NOW FOR THE KICKER: Let's look at your running chart: In 2005 you averaged about 1.88 hours of running per week. Guess what you've been averaging in 2007...wait for it....1.93! Your running TIME hasn't decreased at all compared to 2005! In 2006 you averaged about 2.3 hours, so your average weekly running has gone down about 20 minutes per week compared to 2006.

YOU NO LONGER GET TO TELL US ABOUT HOW LITTLE RUNNING YOU DO! YOU WEREN'T RUNNING TO START WITH AND ARE ONLY RUNNING 20 MIN LESS PER WEEK NOW!

Looking at your chart, if the PC's DID in fact help, it could easily be attributed to the extra volume and the PC's we're "just along for the ride". Same could be said for extra swimming, biking on regular cranks (or PC's), or running. Your volume is very similar to mine weekly, and we'll both greatly benefit from the famous ST More is More mantra (assuming we don't get injured).

One final note, let's look at your average weekly training time:

2005: 6.07 hours
2006: 8.89 Hours
2007: 11.5 hours

Shocker! You got faster from training more!!! Holy crap, how could this be?! You've nearly doubled your hourly training in 2007 compared to 2005.

This is FAR from conclusive that PC's helped. If I were Frank I'd be asking you to pipe down a little bit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 23, 07 7:46

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 7:42

Post #388 of 544 Views: 14219

In Reply To:

"Not low enough? "

Well Frank, I have hired more than one convicted felon, and I worked side by side with a convicted murderer for a while - and all of them exhibited a greater level of honesty and integrity than you do on this forum.

I know you're going to laugh this off, and I'm sure even this is great for your sales, but I honestly wonder if you ever give any thought to just what a colossal ass you have become? Seriously - do you ever have trouble looking in the mirror, or has your level of delusion become so pervasive that your psyche is completely devoid of any kind of introspective moderating element?

It really has been kind of amazing to watch you devolve from cantankerous maverick inventor to raving quack snake-oil salesman over the course of several years.

AS flippant as it sounds, my "what the f**k" question was essentially sincere; you've managed to turn yourself into a joke (literally,) and I just can't imagine what that must feel like...

.

That is pretty harsh and there was really no need for it IMHO.

------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

Last edited by: callidus: Nov 23, 07 7:42

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 7:49

Post #389 of 544 Views: 14210

That is the issue with most anything someone does. It is basically impossible to change just one piece, and not "add volume", etc.
Meaning, since I started back on PC's, I reduced my swimming time 25%. But, I increased my bike time, all of which the increase
was 100% PC's. So, if someone wants to find a way to say something did not, and could not have helped, you can ALWAYS
find this. But, I am totally convinced that my running is faster. All one has to do is look at my run time over the last year, and
see a change in the last few months. Was it because of 80 miles per week on the PC's I added, (and reduced swimming 25%)
or was it just being on the bike 80 miles per week more? Impossible to answer.

Now, did you look at the 30 mile data pre and post 12/25/2006 when I went to longer cranks?

Again, why some think some things can not work for anyone else, when they have never tried them, just is nuts!!
Why do some ride slack, and some steep, if only one way can be right?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 7:55

Post #390 of 544 Views: 14198

In Reply To:

"You crack me up. No, the data IS NOT the same as you posted on 10/28."

If I manipulated the data why would I be so stupid as to no even match the numbers I gave?

Why would I even give any numbers at all? Who cares if I do climb at 300; 320; 370 Watts. ANd if I cared at all about you I would manipulate everything from the beginning not even bothering to meet kendall. I would just manipulate any file up to 400 Watts or more; why not?

I have no idea why you did what you did...only you can enlighten us about that. I only know that you did it.

In Reply To:

But you did not answer one question I made you before: is it possible to manipulate de data still stored in the CPU?

Are you implying that the data from that ride is still in your PT head over one month later? This from a guy who didn't bother to save his all-time personal best file just because he was on travel? Sure it is....

Puh-leeze...do you really expect anyone (well...anyone besides Frank) to actually believe that ANY file that you present from this point on represents the truth? You yourself said that you could just have a stronger rider use your PT wheel and then present the file...of course, then there'd be a witness to your charade.

Like I said before, after this fiasco, your credibility is non-existent.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [fredly] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 7:59

Post #391 of 544 Views: 14190

In Reply To:

You know, I'm having a crappy day (my car got broken into) and I've been drinkng a little bit, so I'm just gonna be blunt here:

Frank, what the F**k is wrong with you?

Seriously - if you worked for me, and posted the nonsense you have been putting up lately, and had my company name in your masthead, you would get the boot in about 5 seconds.

I literally don't think that it would be possible for you to diminish your reputation and credibility in a more effective manner than you have manifested in this thread, and it defies logic that an intelligent person such as yourself would persist in such an insane effort at self-immolation...

Unethical no. Delusional yes.

I think the poor guy actually believes everything he writes. In a way, that's even more sad...

But it makes for some good time wasting on the internet. :)

Last edited by: JustCurious: Nov 23, 07 8:02

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:02

Post #392 of 544 Views: 14185

so has anyone admitted (yet) to manipulating the file? Or apologized for posting fake data?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [callidus] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:03

Post #393 of 544 Views: 14184

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

"Not low enough? "

Well Frank, I have hired more than one convicted felon, and I worked side by side with a convicted murderer for a while - and all of them exhibited a greater level of honesty and integrity than you do on this forum.

I know you're going to laugh this off, and I'm sure even this is great for your sales, but I honestly wonder if you ever give any thought to just what a colossal ass you have become? Seriously - do you ever have trouble looking in the mirror, or has your level of delusion become so pervasive that your psyche is completely devoid of any kind of introspective moderating element?

It really has been kind of amazing to watch you devolve from cantankerous maverick inventor to raving quack snake-oil salesman over the course of several years.

AS flippant as it sounds, my "what the f**k" question was essentially sincere; you've managed to turn yourself into a joke (literally,) and I just can't imagine what that must feel like...

.

That is pretty harsh and there was really no need for it IMHO.

Agreed - seems like an angry man. How someone can get so bitter and upset (and self-righteous?) over a few of pieces of metal baffles me.

There are certain topics that I don't agree with. If I see them in the title of a post, I don't open it - Simple!
...this particular topic, however, NEVER ceases to amuse and amaze me:-)

When I think I'm being unreasonable, I read a PC thread and smile.

#######
My Blog

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:15

Post #394 of 544 Views: 14167

In Reply To:

And, if the data is still in Joaquin's CPU so it will be possible to prove, it would seem, as to whether the data was manipulated and/or, what the real data is, since it would seem impossible to change the data stored in the unit. Wouldn't it be interesting if the data came out exactly as presented by Joaquin or, even if different, confirms what he said he performed. Who would have egg on their face then?

You're assuming that any data that's still in his head unit over one month later is from him. He's already admitted that it would be easy for him to find a stronger rider to use his PT and do the climb. My bet is that any data that's downloaded from that head unit won't match exactly EITHER of the previous versions submitted by Joaquin. Why? Because they are both fabrications.

In Reply To:

Even if manipulation was demonstrated I had nothing to do with it.

Correction...the data HAS been demonstrated to have been manipulated. Nobody has said that you were involved. After all, the file came to all of us directly from Joaquin. The only thing unethical that you've done is to attempt to minimize the implications of the clear fabrication.

In Reply To:

What is to get angry about? Even if everything had been perfect in this data I doubt this would have sold you a set of cranks.

That is where you are wrong. I actually may have given them shot...not to mention how many others may have given them a try as well.

That is why you should be angry about this. A person claiming that your product has helped him immensely and is featured in the "success stories" on your website has been found to be an outright liar and fabricator. I don't see how that doesn't reflect badly on you and your product. It certainly isn't helping you.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:15

Post #395 of 544 Views: 14166

Dave,
The "data" from your 30 mile loop doesn't tell you much compared to your race splits. I see that you have done the Folsom int. the last 3 years, and that your bike speed was:

2005: 21.1(non-aero helmet, non-aero wheels)
2006: 21.2 (aero helmet, non-aero wheels)
2007: 21.4 (aero helmet, $3000 wheels)

Given that you have nearly doubled your bike mileage and are more aero now, why do you think your bike splits haven't improved more?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:21

Post #396 of 544 Views: 14158

No, but I've been working on an application that lets you "Joaquinize" your PT files.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:22

Post #397 of 544 Views: 14156

Credibility before whom? Do you know me? Do I know you?

I do not expect a nickname to believe anything. It is only you who has asked me for my file. I NEVER claimed anything. Claiming anything before nicknames who do not know me is just speaking to the moon.

I am almost 40 y/o any many things in my life so as to bother about my wattage up La Morcuera before Tom A. You must be very famous in your town, but I really have no clue who you are. And I guess you have no idea who I am.

If you insist so much that I, or Frank or anybody can spend hours of his time thinking on how to manipulate files to impress nicknames in a forum 4,000 miles away, it means that YOU have done such things and you see everybody doing like you.

Why are you so interested in discussing about my wattage? Are you a serial killer?

The data is in the CPU. If you are interested tell DHL to pick it up at my home.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:22

Post #398 of 544 Views: 14154

" That is the issue with most anything someone does. It is basically impossible to change just one piece, and not "add volume""

That's where you're wrong. Training volume can stay consistent with ANYTHING you add.

"Meaning, since I started back on PC's, I reduced my swimming time 25%. But, I increased my bike time, all of which the increase
was 100% PC's"

So maybe you got faster from reducing swim time and increasing saddle time, PC's or not. I'm not saying the PC's didn't make you faster, I'm just saying YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MADE YOU FASTER.

"So, if someone wants to find a way to say something did not, and could not have helped, you can ALWAYS find this"

I never said they CAN'T. Just in this case YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT DID. And if I had to put my money on why you got faster, it would go on increased volume alone. Had you done the exact same training but with regular cranks instead of PC's, I THINK (but of course neither of us know) you'd be just as fast.

"But, I am totally convinced that my running is faster. All one has to do is look at my run time over the last year, and see a change in the last few months"

I don't doubt that. BUT IS IT FASTER BECAUSE OF PC'S OR THE INCREASE IN VOLUME? My money goes on the doubling of volume in your training, but that's just a guess.

"Was it because of 80 miles per week on the PC's I added, (and reduced swimming 25%) or was it just being on the bike 80 miles per week more? Impossible to answer"

Agree, IMPOSSIBLE to answer. So it's about time to stop singing the praises of PC's SINCE YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY HELPED OR NOT.

"Now, did you look at the 30 mile data pre and post 12/25/2006 when I went to longer cranks?

Again, why some think some things can not work for anyone else, when they have never tried them, just is nuts!!
Why do some ride slack, and some steep, if only one way can be right?"

This thread isn't about you or your 200mm cranks. Remember Dave, it isn't "you, you, you" all the time. But I will check it out when I have time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [rmur] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:31

Post #399 of 544 Views: 14136

In Reply To:

so has anyone admitted (yet) to manipulating the file? Or apologized for posting fake data?

No, not yet.

And to make a semi-point here. I ride Q-rings. My personal testing is that I gained 8 watts on the same course. I rode the computrainer 6 times with a powertap. 3 with round rings and 3 with Q-rings, alternating weeks, same time, same course every Sunday for 6 weeks. After the 6 weeks I noticed while on that particular course, I gained an average of 8 watts while on Q-rings. Not very scientific, but hey I'm not that intelligent of a guy.

Now since last year, and switching to Q-rings, my threshold is up from 280(first time testing with a PM) to 315. I also have gone from training 4-5 hours a week last year to a 3:1 schedule preparing for an 8 day stage race in June. 13 hours, 17 hours, 20 hours, 8 hour rest week. So did the Q-rings give me a, 11% increase in FTP(so far), or would it be my increased training and racing over the past year?

Man, I better get Gary Tingley on this.

______________
HEDmafia.com

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:35

Post #400 of 544 Views: 14126

"Now, did you look at the 30 mile data pre and post 12/25/2006 when I went to longer cranks?

Again, why some think some things can not work for anyone else, when they have never tried them, just is nuts!!
Why do some ride slack, and some steep, if only one way can be right?"

OK, I just glanced at it, and from what I see in 2007 vs. 2006 you got about 3-4 seconds per mile faster at Folsom. Of course, in 2007 you also had $3000 wheels that you didn't have in 2006, right?

If it were me, I'd want to see a MUCH bigger drop in my bike splits after dropping $3g's on wheels.

Now at the Golden State Tri you got about 90 sec faster in 2007 vs. 2006 for your bike split. Were there any other changes OTHER than the 200mm cranks?

Granite Bay you SLOWED down 4.5 min on your bike split. That's surely not moving in the right direction.

Tri For Real you SLOWED down 50 seconds on your bike split...once again not moving in the right direction.

If I can see ANYTHING wrong here, it's that you're now on better wheels, have an aero helmet (or so I hear) have longer cranks, PC's, and are training MORE and you're bike splits aren't improving, and in some instances getting slower.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:49

Post #401 of 544 Views: 14001

JOaqu�n, Joaqu�n...no te enfades, je, je... no veas las risas que estamos echando...

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:54

Post #402 of 544 Views: 13996

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Your failure to submit a single specific example makes me stronger. Thanks for that.

OK, I will. You claim that 'most users' can expect a 40% gain in power, and you also claim that most of your users are trained athletes. This, of course, is complete bullshit. And, of course, you can't provide a single case study where a well-trained athlete has experienced a 40% increase. NOT ONE. Yet MOST USERS will experience this gain? How the hell is that possible?

I know--Joaquin--or that 11 year old girl that was going to beat Lance up Ventoux or whatever....

It's funny. Most of your 'detractors' seem to think that you're an idiot or a scam artist--or both. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and just think that your passion for your product just manifests itself in a perfect demonstration of every cognitive bias ever defined. However, in your responses in this thread, you're really doing your best to prove me wrong.

Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more. Second, that claim requires the user to use the cranks exclusively (or nearly so) for a period of 6-9 months. To see the benefit one must do the hard work. Since many users do not use them exclusively, the fact that "most" users do not report such improvements is not evidence the claim is hogwash. Those who use them as I suggest frequently and regularly see such improvements well exceeding the 50% mark. Those who do not, do not.

And, that is a marketing claim in order to try to let the potential buyer understand what we believe the potential of the product is. It is what we believe the evidence shows. We don't have proof of the claim and we don't claim to have proof of the claim. However, we give a 90 day money-back guarantee to the buyer, just in case he or she might feel we misrepresented it.

Anyhow, there is soon to be a study underway to test the claim. We will see what we see.

While you may disagree with the claim thinking that if someone buys it and puts it under their pillow at night and doesn't see 40% improvement that my claim is bogus. I disagree. Such disagreements do not constitute ethical lapses on either one of our parts :-) Where a marketing or product claim starts to cross the ethical barrier is perhaps something like "it is still not proven that cigarettes cause cancer" despite massive amounts of evidence they do. There is not a single shred of scientific evidence that the PC marketing claims are false.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [cslone] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 8:57

Post #403 of 544 Views: 13990

In Reply To:

[/quote]
. Magnus has told us he has ridden them for as long as 6 hours and he likes training on them on the cobbles in preparation for PR and he is one of the few pros nice enough to actually send us a picture of himself with the cranks. So what is your point?

Post them up. It would be simple to prove that Maggie uses them.[/reply] http://www.powercranks.com/v4pages/sp-cycling-pros.htm

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:00

Post #404 of 544 Views: 13982

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [josegordo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:02

Post #405 of 544 Views: 13979

�qui�n eres?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:06

Post #406 of 544 Views: 13969

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The data for the climb is very flawed but there are parts of that data that are consistent with what is claimed. [..] I see a motivation here to discredit [Joaquin] however it must be done [..] Who has the greater motivation here to "manipulate" the interpretation of the data?

Frank, I was trying to stay out of this any further, but you've dragged me back in. Are you saying that my analysis of the file was biased in order to discredit either you or Joaquin "however it must be done?" Had that been my goal, I surely would not have stopped when I did because what you've seen so far is not the entirety of what I looked at, and the oddities I've pointed out are not the only problems I've found. I held back for two reasons: first, it gave me no pleasure to point out the flaws in this file; and second, there's no sense in beating a very, very dead horse. That is not the behavior of someone who is trying to discredit you "however it must be done." However, since you brought it up, I will ask you to consider your own question: of the two of us, who has the greater motivation to "manipulate" the interpretation of the data?

No, your analysis is correct. My only problem is the attribution that the only explanation for this "corruption" is the deliberate manipulation of the file by Joaquin to make himself look better than he is. There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct), only the speed and HR numbers are truly bizarre as I understand it. So, such a "deliberate manipulation" explanation makes little sense to me, even though i cannot come up with another one.

The file is corrupted. How it got that way is unknown although some here have speculated nefarious intent, even though they have no proof of same. Anyhow, IMHO, the data should not be used to try to "prove" anything. I think it should be left at that.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:10

Post #407 of 544 Views: 13958

[reply]Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more. Second, that claim requires the user to use the cranks exclusively (or nearly so) for a period of 6-9 months. To see the benefit one must do the hard work.

However, we give a 90 day money-back guarantee to the buyer, just in case he or she might feel we misrepresented it. [/reply]

So it takes 180-270 days to see the "true" benefit, yet you lock potential users into 90 days? Why not extend that guarantee to at least 6 months?

I'll tell you what. If you give me a 6-9 month money back guarantee, I'd be more than happy to train with them exclusively. I've been stuck at 270-285 W for my threshold for 3 years now. I put 12-17 hours a week on the bike in on terrain that would be ideally suited for powercranks - flat flat flat (coastal Texas). I'm a scientist at heart, and I analyze data endlessly and I'd judge the data fairly. I'd love to even get a 10% increase in hour power but what impetus is there for me to try if I can only get 3 months risk free?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:31

Post #408 of 544 Views: 13933

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:33

Post #409 of 544 Views: 13929

Estos guiris son la hostia...Joaqu�n, no te mosquees, "catedr�tico", que ya sabemos que vas como una moto en bici con las bielas esas raras que usas

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:54

Post #410 of 544 Views: 13906

In Reply To:

There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct)

Ummm...you must have missed about 5 pages of this thread:
1. There's overwhelming evidence the power numbers are suspect, and manipulated.

2. The 'witness', by his own admission, didn't actually witness much of anything.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [tigermilk] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:55

Post #411 of 544 Views: 13904

In Reply To:

[reply]Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more. Second, that claim requires the user to use the cranks exclusively (or nearly so) for a period of 6-9 months. To see the benefit one must do the hard work.

However, we give a 90 day money-back guarantee to the buyer, just in case he or she might feel we misrepresented it. [/reply]

So it takes 180-270 days to see the "true" benefit, yet you lock potential users into 90 days? Why not extend that guarantee to at least 6 months?

I'll tell you what. If you give me a 6-9 month money back guarantee, I'd be more than happy to train with them exclusively. I've been stuck at 270-285 W for my threshold for 3 years now. I put 12-17 hours a week on the bike in on terrain that would be ideally suited for powercranks - flat flat flat (coastal Texas). I'm a scientist at heart, and I analyze data endlessly and I'd judge the data fairly. I'd love to even get a 10% increase in hour power but what impetus is there for me to try if I can only get 3 months risk free?

Most people are sold on them in 2 weeks. All they need see is the potential for them, not that they will be seeing any specific benefit "promised" by me. In 2-3 weeks almost everyone is getting through the transition and starting to see improvement at least for short efforts. Three months is not long enough to really make any "permanent" neurological pattern changes but is long enough to let everyone get through the transition and see the potential. If we gave a 9 month guarantee some of you "cheaper" folks would just order the product, derive a large portion of the benefits, then send them back. Hey, we are in business to make money, not to provide you folks with free training aids. :-)

In view of your problem about training for the mountains but living in a flat area you might be interested in this blog entry on our web site:

http://www.powercranks.com/...e-Norseman-2007.html

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [kdw] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:56

Post #412 of 544 Views: 13900

As I have posted, I only see the improvement with the longer cranks on the hills. Seems like no change on the flats.
So, other than Berkeley, none this year had real hills. Now, when I get back to Donner, that will be a compare point.

So, again, look at all the times pre and post 30 mile loop. Same HILLY course.

My best with 180's was like 1:45. My best with 200's is 1:41. I seem to average going up the 12 mile hill about 3 to 5 minutes faster.
But, going back down the rest of the 18 miles, I really have seen no change.

This comment about better hills with longer cranks I have seen posted many times on ST. Flats, yep, no change.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 9:59

Post #413 of 544 Views: 13897

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

So, in other words, there's not a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power by 40%. That's what I thought.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:00

Post #414 of 544 Views: 13896

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct)

Ummm...you must have missed about 5 pages of this thread:
1. There's overwhelming evidence the power numbers are suspect, and manipulated.

2. The 'witness', by his own admission, didn't actually witness much of anything.

OK, fine. I don't see it on the power numbers but I will accept your assertion. The data is bad. It shouldn't be used to prove anything. I have already said that since if any of the numbers are obviously wrong, all of them should be suspect.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:07

Post #415 of 544 Views: 13887

Thanks for looking at the data.

Folsom is pretty flat, and longer cranks do not see to help on the flats. In 2006 I had Zipp 404's.

Golden state is a draft legal race, so I would not do any bike to bike compare that I could support.

Granite Bay, wow, I was a real wuss, but got first in my AG. ;o(

Tri for reals, lots of changes at that race. Distance changed one year because of road construction.
Heat and wind change all the time. But, not sure if this was 06 or 05. Again, I just won all my AG races with TBF this year so I am a wuss.

Yep, getting older, slower, and placing better. Guess I will take that. Smile

Smile

I won one race outright. I placed better in all races than I ever have. So, I guess it was just me slower,
what do you call all the other folks then, since I moved up in every race overall?

Oh well, I will take the results I got this year, and continue my non ST approved training methods.
See ya at worlds. Smile

Smile

I have the same aero helmet as last year. No idea if the new zipps are really any faster then my zipp 404's.

Oh well, just finished my hour swim at the pool 5 minutes away from me. Will do do a PC ride after lunch in the hills
around my house and see how far I can get.

Now, when I see Dev and Chad stop using the PC's totally, then I will have to revisit if they are helping at all.
But, they have about more years on them than anyone on ST, and they continue to use in their training plans.
Good enough for me to follow studs like them.

Dave (the going slower guy)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:11

Post #416 of 544 Views: 13879

In Reply To:

No, your analysis is correct. My only problem is the attribution that the only explanation for this "corruption" is the deliberate manipulation of the file by Joaquin to make himself look better than he is. There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct), only the speed and HR numbers are truly bizarre as I understand it.

I'm not letting you off the hook. You cast aspersions on my analysis as biased and motivated by a desire to discredit your PC's. I remind you that I gave you (and Joaquin) a heads-up that there were oddities so you (and he) could get out in front of this. Then I delayed showing my analysis until you'd already posted about it. Then I specifically withheld any judgement about how the oddities occurred and only described (some of) them. I repeat your question and ask that you answer it: of the two of us, who has the greater motivation to manipulate the interpretation?

And, your understanding of what was "truly bizarre" is incorrect. Frank, how much riding with a Power Tap, or analysis of Power Tap files, have you done? The oddities I described are not the only oddities. It's too late to get out in front of this but you can stop digging a hole.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [josegordo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:17

Post #417 of 544 Views: 13868

No s� qui�n eres, pero si tienes algo que ver con esto, no veo qu� est�s buscando. Te he hecho yo algo? Es divertido?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:20

Post #418 of 544 Views: 13865

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

I promised myself to stay out of this thread but I just have to say this...

I know various cases of overstimated VO2Max tests from joaquin's doctor, for instance, a man who is over 50 years old, weights a little over 60kg and climbs morcuera in 38-40 minutes was tested by this doctor and 'diagnosticated' a VO2Max above 70.

I suspect the equipment that this doctor uses is not working well, or at least has not been working well during a certain period of time.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:28

Post #419 of 544 Views: 13845

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

So, in other words, there's not a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power by 40%. That's what I thought.

Ah, yes, if you are requiring well-documented improvements I would pretty much agree. All the reports are anecdotal. That is pretty much the "data" I have to work with. So, it is not that there is no data, just that there is not "well-documented" (in the scientific sense) data. I have enough data that I am comfortable making the claim I do but it has not been scientifically validated. It is why I am so interested in getting a good long-term study done, so I can answer critics like yourself. Hopefully, we will have an answer within a year but I may not be able to present it immediately if it will potentially interfere with publication. May have to wait longer until it is published. I want the data published, if possible. I could care less, what you, as an individual, desire or demand. Unfortunately, it will not last as long as the long end of our claim. Six months is enough to answer the major questions I have but I may try to see if I can get the 100% PC group extended to a full year or, even, two, so we can better "document" the long-term potential.

Would you agree though that Skufka's reported improvement calculates to an almost doubling of power for that 12 mile loop. That is substantially more than 40%.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [alvaro] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:33

Post #420 of 544 Views: 13830

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

I promised myself to stay out of this thread but I just have to say this...

I know various cases of overstimated VO2Max tests from joaquin's doctor, for instance, a man who is over 50 years old, weights a little over 60kg and climbs morcuera in 38-40 minutes was tested by this doctor and 'diagnosticated' a VO2Max above 70.

I suspect the equipment that this doctor uses is not working well, or at least has not been working well during a certain period of time.

alvaro, your posts are pretty tiring. Any "test" that doesn't meet your expectation means nefarious intent or poorly calibrated equipment. Pretty much everyone knows that performance has little to do with VO2 max. One can have a large VO2 max and very poor efficiency and perform poorly or a low VO2 max and high efficiency and perform well. Or, high VO2 max and high efficiency (Lance) and kick everyone's butt.

Anyhow, why don't you meet up with Joaquin (and bring some of your friends) and ride up this mountain, then go have a beer with him, and report on the result to everyone here. Be sure to bring your working PT with you.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 23, 07 10:35

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:43

Post #421 of 544 Views: 13817

So, you are saying that the fact that PowerCranks force the user to "unweight" somehow prevents them from "using an extended main power stroke with power applied in the same direction from 11 to 5"? [/reply]

What I am trying to say is that it is the objective of the circular pedaler (and PC rider) to attempt to apply continuous tangential force to the crank throughout its full rotation, this means that he will be continually changing the direction through which he will be applying the power. His attempted power application will be forward at 12 o'c and vertical at 3 o'c. With the extended main power stroke which gives max power from 11 to 5, the direction will be at a 45 degree angle all the way, all it takes is a simple knack to be able to do this.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [josegordo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:53

Post #422 of 544 Views: 13799

Te he mandado un mensaje. Espero que contestes....pero las fuerzas gu�rdalas para las carreras, no para cachondearte...y si tienes c... contestame en privado

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:53

Post #423 of 544 Views: 13798

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

So, in other words, there's not a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power by 40%. That's what I thought.

Ah, yes, if you are requiring well-documented improvements I would pretty much agree. All the reports are anecdotal. That is pretty much the "data" I have to work with. So, it is not that there is no data, just that there is not "well-documented" (in the scientific sense) data. I have enough data that I am comfortable making the claim I do but it has not been scientifically validated. It is why I am so interested in getting a good long-term study done, so I can answer critics like yourself. Hopefully, we will have an answer within a year but I may not be able to present it immediately if it will potentially interfere with publication. May have to wait longer until it is published. I want the data published, if possible. I could care less, what you, as an individual, desire or demand. Unfortunately, it will not last as long as the long end of our claim. Six months is enough to answer the major questions I have but I may try to see if I can get the 100% PC group extended to a full year or, even, two, so we can better "document" the long-term potential.

Would you agree though that Skufka's reported improvement calculates to an almost doubling of power for that 12 mile loop. That is substantially more than 40%.

have you heard of performance (IOW: speed) enhancers like:
1. ducking your head?
2. upgrading equipment?

I'm thinking not.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 10:54

Post #424 of 544 Views: 13798

Dave, you are hilarious. You offer up your training log as proof about how you've gotten faster on less running while using PC's. I spend about 90 seconds finding out your running hasn't really been reduced much, you actually haven't gotten any faster on the same courses year to year, but you continue to claim PC's are making you faster and totally disregard the fact that you've DOUBLED your training volume as POSSIBLY just part of the reason you think you're faster.

You are about as blind to the facts as Frank is.

"I won one race outright"

Which race was that? Lake Orroville? What happened to that other guy who finished before you? Oh wait, I remember....

"So, I guess it was just me slower, what do you call all the other folks then, since I moved up in every race overall?"

Dave, I'm ONLY USING THE DATA YOU SUBMITTED. I have no idea what happened to everyone else. Hell, they may have all doubled their splits, but we're not talking about them, as always, we're talking about you. YOU WERE THE ONE WHO SUBMITTED THE DATA TO ANALYZE. All I can analyze is what I have.

"Oh well, I will take the results I got this year, and continue my non ST approved training methods.
See ya at worlds.

"

Knock yourself out, just don't keep trying to tell everyone your increased speed while using PC's and running less is the reason. Because as I said, it took me about 90 seconds with your log to poke holes through that theory.

Oh, and I didn't know you were going to be at Maui next year! I'm hoping to make it to XTERRA Worlds as well....oh yeah, you mean short course worlds. I didn't know they even had those ;-)

"I have the same aero helmet as last year. No idea if the new zipps are really any faster then my zipp 404's"

No biggie, you don't know if the PC's made you faster, why would you know if the wheels did? For an engineer, you sure don't know much about analyzing data and crunching numbers.

"Oh well, just finished my hour swim at the pool 5 minutes away from me. Will do do a PC ride after lunch in the hills around my house and see how far I can get"

I don't care. But have fun! This has nothing to do with our conversation.

"Now, when I see Dev and Chad stop using the PC's totally, then I will have to revisit if they are helping at all"

Why would someone else stopping with a training aid change how well they are working for you? I won't be changing my golf shoes to Nike's because Tiger's a good golfer.

Dave, I would have no issues with you at all if you'd just admit that you like using PC's because they are fun, or they make you train more because you have them. BUT PIPE DOWN ABOUT HOW THEY ARE MAKING YOU FASTER until you KNOW they are making you faster.

This whole "how could they know without using them" BS is really old. You HAVE used them and you STILL DON'T KNOW!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:04

Post #425 of 544 Views: 13786

As I said, two people can look at the same data and get two different answers, depending on what they are trying to "prove".

I, and others, believe PC's help. I will continue to use how I think they help me, which is not the 100% what Franks recommends.
Now, if they loan me a SRM/PC setup, I might have to change that statement.

And, I totally believe the PC's, with my data, show I am running faster. It might all be in my head,
but, that is what I believe, and I am sticking with my training plans. I like my results. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:08

Post #426 of 544 Views: 14399

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

[ Ugh, "most" does not mean all, it would simply mean about half or more.

Ugh, but I'm not asking for 'most', I'm asking for a single documented case of a well-trained athlete increasing his or her power 40%. Just one.... If you're going to claim 'most', you'd think there'd be at least ONE out there.

I know--the guy who increased his speed 8mph...

Phooey.

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

I promised myself to stay out of this thread but I just have to say this...

I know various cases of overstimated VO2Max tests from joaquin's doctor, for instance, a man who is over 50 years old, weights a little over 60kg and climbs morcuera in 38-40 minutes was tested by this doctor and 'diagnosticated' a VO2Max above 70.

I suspect the equipment that this doctor uses is not working well, or at least has not been working well during a certain period of time.

alvaro, your posts are pretty tiring. Any "test" that doesn't meet your expectation means nefarious intent or poorly calibrated equipment. Pretty much everyone knows that performance has little to do with VO2 max. One can have a large VO2 max and very poor efficiency and perform poorly or a low VO2 max and high efficiency and perform well. Or, high VO2 max and high efficiency (Lance) and kick everyone's butt.

Anyhow, why don't you meet up with Joaquin (and bring some of your friends) and ride up this mountain, then go have a beer with him, and report on the result to everyone here. Be sure to bring your working PT with you.

it's pretty funny that you say that anyone else's posts are tiring...

I'll have that beer with him if we meet some day, but I'm certainly not going to go up that mountain in a few months, I don't want to die frozen.

Anyway, what would that prove? I'm not saying that joaquin can't hold 360w for 30m, that would be very good, but nothing unbelievable, his time in that climb is really good, better than mine, but certainly not unbelievable. I just chime in whenever I read someone say something that I know is wrong, as I live in Madrid and have climbed that mountain a few times.

All I know is:

Morcuera is 9.2km long, 6,9% steep, sheltered form the wind but for the last km that usually has a headwind, the summit is almost at 1800m.

It takes 309 PT watts with a total mass of 75kg (rider+bike+extras), a front 404 tubular with a vittoria crono and a rear open pro clincher with a veloflex record to climb it in 29m16s (tha's my PB if you haven't guessed it).

If anyone posts any data that contradicts what I know, I will say so, that's all, I have no reason not to believe joaquin, and I don't care if he is fast or not, in fact I just find it amazing that he can ride up that mountain using your funny cranks, even if it took him an hour

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:10

Post #427 of 544 Views: 14396

" As I said, two people can look at the same data and get two different answers, depending on what they are trying to "prove""

I haven't tried to prove anything, other than the fact that you have no idea WHY you have gotten faster, even though you want to pin it on PC's. You don't KNOW that, in any sense of the word.

"I, and others, believe PC's help"

I, and others, aren't convinced.

"I will continue to use how I think they help me, which is not the 100% what Franks recommends"

As I said, knock yourself out. BUT, until they are proven to me that they work, I won't be dropping $1k on them.

"Now, if they loan me a SRM/PC setup, I might have to change that statement"

Why would they do that? Your irrational devotion to PC's leaves Frank zero reason to give you something. He gets more than enough mention on ST about your PC's. Now, if I were Frank, I'd be asking for to pipe down about your PC's. Your slower bike splits and only slightly faster run times after DOUBLING your volume isn't exactly the PR I'd be wanting for my product.

"And, I totally believe the PC's, with my data, show I am running faster"

Dave, I said that I don't doubt that. BUT DO YOU THINK THERE IS AN OUTSIDE CHANCE YOU ARE RUNNING FASTER BECAUSE OF YOUR DOUBLED TRAINING VOLUME? Probably not, because that doesn't support your use of PC's.

"It might all be in my head"

It's good to know something is in there ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:10

Post #428 of 544 Views: 14396

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

No, your analysis is correct. My only problem is the attribution that the only explanation for this "corruption" is the deliberate manipulation of the file by Joaquin to make himself look better than he is. There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct), only the speed and HR numbers are truly bizarre as I understand it.

I'm not letting you off the hook. You cast aspersions on my analysis as biased and motivated by a desire to discredit your PC's. I remind you that I gave you (and Joaquin) a heads-up that there were oddities so you (and he) could get out in front of this. Then I delayed showing my analysis until you'd already posted about it. Then I specifically withheld any judgement about how the oddities occurred and only described (some of) them. I repeat your question and ask that you answer it: of the two of us, who has the greater motivation to manipulate the interpretation?

And, your understanding of what was "truly bizarre" is incorrect. Frank, how much riding with a Power Tap, or analysis of Power Tap files, have you done? The oddities I described are not the only oddities. It's too late to get out in front of this but you can stop digging a hole.

Your "heads up" said I was being "snookered". You analyzed a corrupted file and then attributed nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation to it. Perhaps, but the data is the data. I will accept that and deal with it. I don't run and hide under a rock just because someone might have done something untowards in supporting my product. His improvements are right in line with what many have reported. His is the first to give us numbers. Unless you have evidence that his doctor's testing has also been manipulated or that he didn't really do that climb in the time reported (even though there was a witness there who believes he did) this "manipulation" of this one particular set of data says nothing about PowerCranks and their potential nor does it mean there could not be other explanations for the data.

It will be interesting to see what the data in the unit still says. Would you agree it would be impossible to manipulate the data in the unit? What if it is downloaded and comes out corrupted again (with the same or, even, different values). How would you interpret that? What if the data comes out uncorrupted but confirms what Joaquin originally claimed?

I just think it premature to assign nefarious intent. While it may be true that when a woman is murdered the first person the police usually suspect is the spouse, they usually don't charge on that data alone. They usually would like some corroborating evidence to confirm their suspicion. I think it would have been better to say the data was inconsistent. What bothers me about assigning nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation are two things. First the speed data. The speed data is high by about 16%. Putting that speed into analyticcycling.com for the same climb would have required about 424 watts. Why on earth would someone manipulate this data to this result then not claim the result? And, why would they also manipulate the HR data to have a repeating pattern? Where is the purpose there? There is some stuff here, on close analysis, that makes no sense? I am not quite ready to jump on the "joaquin is an untrustworth con artist band wagon" in view of the fact that he waited until there was an observer there as someone requested and the observer thinks his climb is about as advertised which would have required the power numbers found in the file (according to analyticcycling.com). So, there is evidence to support his claim and the the file is definitely corrupted, possibly manipulated.

You have not manipulated the data. The data file is what it is. The only question is how did it get that way? Many have made their determination of that. I don't think there is enough evidence for that to be "proven". It is my opinion. You are welcome to yours also.

I am not digging a hole as I have not made a judgment here. What are earth are you (or the other accusers) going to do if it is discovered that the data is corrupted in the unit?

Why don't you just encourage Alvaro to go ride the climb with him?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [joaco21] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:33

Post #429 of 544 Views: 14366

In Reply To:

Te he mandado un mensaje. Espero que contestes....pero las fuerzas gu�rdalas para las carreras, no para cachondearte...y si tienes c... contestame en privado

This thread just keeps on giving! After the dog finally threw up the homework, it morphed into Slowtwitch's very own version of the Schon case. (Indeed the protagonist(s) are showing the classic pyschosis found in scientific fraud in their conviction of being correct even when the data itself has been proven to be doctored or fraudulent.) And now we've got this new Spanish soap opera/mafiosi angle - superb.

The question is, who is "the professor"? Or should that be: qui�n es "catedr�tico"?

Last edited by: duncan: Nov 23, 07 11:36

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:33

Post #430 of 544 Views: 14365

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

(even though there was a witness there who believes he did)

Stop saying that. The 'witness' by his own admission didn't witness much of anything...I'm going to keep typing that every time you say it.

It will be interesting to see what the data in the unit still says. Would you agree it would be impossible to manipulate the data in the unit?

I wouldn't. It IS possible to manipulate the data in the head unit. As a matter of fact, it's possible to write information TO the head unit.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:40

Post #431 of 544 Views: 14351

[reply]
[reply]
Why don't you just encourage Alvaro to go ride the climb with him? [/reply]

what would that prove?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 11:55

Post #432 of 544 Views: 14329

In Reply To:

Your "heads up" said I was being "snookered". You analyzed a corrupted file and then attributed nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation to it. Perhaps, but the data is the data. I will accept that and deal with it. I don't run and hide under a rock just because someone might have done something untowards in supporting my product. His improvements are right in line with what many have reported. His is the first to give us numbers. Unless you have evidence that his doctor's testing has also been manipulated or that he didn't really do that climb in the time reported (even though there was a witness there who believes he did) this "manipulation" of this one particular set of data says nothing about PowerCranks and their potential nor does it mean there could not be other explanations for the data.

It will be interesting to see what the data in the unit still says. Would you agree it would be impossible to manipulate the data in the unit? What if it is downloaded and comes out corrupted again (with the same or, even, different values). How would you interpret that? What if the data comes out uncorrupted but confirms what Joaquin originally claimed?

I just think it premature to assign nefarious intent. While it may be true that when a woman is murdered the first person the police usually suspect is the spouse, they usually don't charge on that data alone. They usually would like some corroborating evidence to confirm their suspicion. I think it would have been better to say the data was inconsistent. What bothers me about assigning nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation are two things. First the speed data. The speed data is high by about 16%. Putting that speed into analyticcycling.com for the same climb would have required about 424 watts. Why on earth would someone manipulate this data to this result then not claim the result? And, why would they also manipulate the HR data to have a repeating pattern? Where is the purpose there? There is some stuff here, on close analysis, that makes no sense? I am not quite ready to jump on the "joaquin is an untrustworth con artist band wagon" in view of the fact that he waited until there was an observer there as someone requested and the observer thinks his climb is about as advertised which would have required the power numbers found in the file (according to analyticcycling.com). So, there is evidence to support his claim and the the file is definitely corrupted, possibly manipulated.

You have not manipulated the data. The data file is what it is. The only question is how did it get that way? Many have made their determination of that. I don't think there is enough evidence for that to be "proven". It is my opinion. You are welcome to yours also.

I am not digging a hole as I have not made a judgment here. What are earth are you (or the other accusers) going to do if it is discovered that the data is corrupted in the unit?

Why don't you just encourage Alvaro to go ride the climb with him?

Frank, I usually cut down the extraneous stuff from messages I reply to, but in this case I am going to leave your entire loopy message as it is.

1. Find the message where I said you were being "snookered." You can't. You're lying. That's unethical for a Naval Academy graduate, and a physician. Admit your error and apologize.

2. Find the message where I attributed "nefarious intent." You can't. You're lying. That's unethical for a Naval Academy graduate, and a physician. Admit your error and apologize.

3. You've accused me of bias without support and, although you demand the answer from others you have twice evaded answering the same question yourself. Of the two of us, who has greater motivation to "manipulate" the interpretation?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 12:05

Post #433 of 544 Views: 14315

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.[/reply]
You're amazing Frank, I don't use the site much but when i do i can't get enough of your innate ability to ignore every single opinion offered to you that differs to yours, and anytime it looks like you're losing you start veering off subject and brush the damage under the carpet.

You're saying the cranks haven't been proven to give the marketed claim. Is that not illegal in the States? It is in Ireland. And then you say that the claim hasn't been disproved so your satisfied with it. Of course you're satisfied with saying it, it is supposed to help people to buy your product and give you money. Why not change your promotion of the PC's to "Can increase performance by up to or over 40%. Well no one can say it can't. Actually, I am sure it can. Honest folks, we just decided to make a claim with no proof and expect you to believe it cause we think its true"

And since you like the smoking analogy, you using the above examples as proof or evidence of the 40% increase is like smoking companies, before being proven otherwise, saying "hey smoke up guys, an 8 year old girl just broke the world most cigerettes in a day record and she's still healthy" or "some random spanish guy smoked for years and he lived longer than loads of other people". Of course certain people will get quicker, people train more, they gain from years of other training, they focus more, they improve racing, pacing, nutrition, health, just because there are a few scant random and containing no direct relation to PCs exceptions, doesn't prove anything.

You amaze me, honest, amaze me

__________________________________________________

Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 12:31

Post #434 of 544 Views: 14278

Your treatment of RChung on this thread is distasteful, and says quite a bit about your character. He's done nothing but state the facts, and he's been extremely even-handed and fair in doing so. Don't attack him just because his accurate analysis didn't say what you hoped it would.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 13:25

Post #435 of 544 Views: 14228

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Your "heads up" said I was being "snookered". You analyzed a corrupted file and then attributed nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation to it. Perhaps, but the data is the data. I will accept that and deal with it. I don't run and hide under a rock just because someone might have done something untowards in supporting my product. His improvements are right in line with what many have reported. His is the first to give us numbers. Unless you have evidence that his doctor's testing has also been manipulated or that he didn't really do that climb in the time reported (even though there was a witness there who believes he did) this "manipulation" of this one particular set of data says nothing about PowerCranks and their potential nor does it mean there could not be other explanations for the data.

It will be interesting to see what the data in the unit still says. Would you agree it would be impossible to manipulate the data in the unit? What if it is downloaded and comes out corrupted again (with the same or, even, different values). How would you interpret that? What if the data comes out uncorrupted but confirms what Joaquin originally claimed?

I just think it premature to assign nefarious intent. While it may be true that when a woman is murdered the first person the police usually suspect is the spouse, they usually don't charge on that data alone. They usually would like some corroborating evidence to confirm their suspicion. I think it would have been better to say the data was inconsistent. What bothers me about assigning nefarious intent and deliberate manipulation are two things. First the speed data. The speed data is high by about 16%. Putting that speed into analyticcycling.com for the same climb would have required about 424 watts. Why on earth would someone manipulate this data to this result then not claim the result? And, why would they also manipulate the HR data to have a repeating pattern? Where is the purpose there? There is some stuff here, on close analysis, that makes no sense? I am not quite ready to jump on the "joaquin is an untrustworth con artist band wagon" in view of the fact that he waited until there was an observer there as someone requested and the observer thinks his climb is about as advertised which would have required the power numbers found in the file (according to analyticcycling.com). So, there is evidence to support his claim and the the file is definitely corrupted, possibly manipulated.

You have not manipulated the data. The data file is what it is. The only question is how did it get that way? Many have made their determination of that. I don't think there is enough evidence for that to be "proven". It is my opinion. You are welcome to yours also.

I am not digging a hole as I have not made a judgment here. What are earth are you (or the other accusers) going to do if it is discovered that the data is corrupted in the unit?

Why don't you just encourage Alvaro to go ride the climb with him?

Frank, I usually cut down the extraneous stuff from messages I reply to, but in this case I am going to leave your entire loopy message as it is.

1. Find the message where I said you were being "snookered." You can't. You're lying. That's unethical for a Naval Academy graduate, and a physician. Admit your error and apologize.

2. Find the message where I attributed "nefarious intent." You can't. You're lying. That's unethical for a Naval Academy graduate, and a physician. Admit your error and apologize.

3. You've accused me of bias without support and, although you demand the answer from others you have twice evaded answering the same question yourself. Of the two of us, who has greater motivation to "manipulate" the interpretation?

You are right. It was someone else who emailed me to warn me. the words were "you have been had. . ." I apologize for mis-attributing that.

I see no evidence you have attributed nefarious intent to this file. Certainly others have. If I mistakenly put you in this group, I apologize.

No, I have not accused you specifically of bias, at least that I know of. Your analysis of the file is correct in that the file is considerably flawed with substantial inconsistencies. I checked and I can't find that you have made any statement as to how this occurred. I apologize if I implied or said otherwise.

All I can say is we are going to try to take some steps to answer the question as to whether the file was changed after it came out of the unit or whether the data is flawed from the get-go. Joaquin has noticed some other problems with the data, in that a lot is missing after the ride. We are going to be sending the unit to Cycle-ops and let them download the file and see what they get, since it is still there. Hopefully, with Murphy's law and all, it will not get lost in the mail. :-) Anyhow, we will see what we will see, won't we?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [legs11] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 13:50

Post #436 of 544 Views: 14202

In Reply To:

Well, Joaquin for one. He has submitted 3 tests showing such an improvement over one year, increasing his FTP 40%. Now people have a lot of heartburn with the methodology used by his doctor, but his doctor, who did the test, is experienced in this area and it just happens to be the methodology he uses.

I would also use the example of Phil Holman. He did not train with a power meter but his documented speed improvements (increasing his top speed on the track from 35 to 38 mph) in 7 months calculate to about a 30% increase in power and got him to a world class level. It isn't 40% but it is about 40% and he probably started at a higher level than our average new user.

And, Joe Skufka, an experienced triathlete, who reported improving his monthly 12 mile TT loop in 6 months from an average speed of 20 mph to over 25 mph. Even though he again did not have a power meter I defy anyone to get that kind of speed improvement without seeing at least a 40% increase in power! And, the next year he was up to 27 mph. And the next year 28 mph.

Or, Tom Evans. Again no power meter but he improved his best IM bike split from over 5 hours to about 4:30, although it took him a little more than a year to do so.

Anyhow, lots of these examples exist. Just go listen to the cycling improvements testimonials video on the web page. I have put a link to in in this thread already so I won't repeat it here.

You're amazing Frank, I don't use the site much but when i do i can't get enough of your innate ability to ignore every single opinion offered to you that differs to yours, and anytime it looks like you're losing you start veering off subject and brush the damage under the carpet.

You're saying the cranks haven't been proven to give the marketed claim. Is that not illegal in the States? It is in Ireland. And then you say that the claim hasn't been disproved so your satisfied with it. Of course you're satisfied with saying it, it is supposed to help people to buy your product and give you money. Why not change your promotion of the PC's to "Can increase performance by up to or over 40%. Well no one can say it can't. Actually, I am sure it can. Honest folks, we just decided to make a claim with no proof and expect you to believe it cause we think its true"

And since you like the smoking analogy, you using the above examples as proof or evidence of the 40% increase is like smoking companies, before being proven otherwise, saying "hey smoke up guys, an 8 year old girl just broke the world most cigerettes in a day record and she's still healthy" or "some random spanish guy smoked for years and he lived longer than loads of other people". Of course certain people will get quicker, people train more, they gain from years of other training, they focus more, they improve racing, pacing, nutrition, health, just because there are a few scant random and containing no direct relation to PCs exceptions, doesn't prove anything.

You amaze me, honest, amaze me[/reply] I am sorry. There are degrees of proven. There is "proven" enough to satisfy me that the claim is probably pretty good and there is "proven" to a scientific certainty. There is enough data for the first, there is not for the second. If there is ever any data to suggest the claim is inflated (not simply opinions that it is inflated) I will change it.

Continuing to amaze is my goal. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 13:59

Post #437 of 544 Views: 14192

So, in essence, unless someone comissions a controlled study of powercrank effectiveness, and the study shows that improvement is less than 40%, you wouldn't consider rescinding the claim? Even then you might stand behind your claim, though, citing the fact that the study merely "failed to support" your hypothesis, and that technically a scientific study never "disproves" anything.

Whatever happened to "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"? You don't even have one well-documented case that suggests the 40% number is accurate. How can a guy who went to medical school stand behind that claim?

As this thread continues it's becoming ever clearer that you'll believe whatever portrays your invention in a positive light, and whatever makes you a buck.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 14:09

Post #438 of 544 Views: 14179

In Reply To:

So, in essence, unless someone comissions a controlled study of powercrank effectiveness, and the study shows that improvement is less than 40%, you wouldn't consider rescinding the claim? Even then you might stand behind your claim, though, citing the fact that the study merely "failed to support" your hypothesis, and that technically a scientific study never "disproves" anything.

Whatever happened to "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"? You don't even have one well-documented case that suggests the 40% number is accurate. How can a guy who went to medical school stand behind that claim?

As this thread continues it's becoming ever clearer that you'll believe whatever portrays your invention in a positive light, and whatever makes you a buck.

Well, we have "commissioned" such a study, or perhaps you missed that. Such a study, that lasts for that long is exceedingly hard to do but we are going to try. Anyhow, there could be other data I suppose but as long as we keep getting reports from the field (there are well known relationships between power and speed such that power improvements can be inferred from speed improvements, all else being the same, in case you didn't know) that support the claim and no scientific study exists to refute it, I suspect it will remain.

I guess in our case the "extraordinary proof" we offer is an extraordinary money-back guarantee. Not many products offer what we do, in fact, I don't know another one. Whether we give 40% or not to each person, they can feel certain that whatever improvement they see from using the product the cost of the cranks is worth it to them to see it.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 14:31

Post #439 of 544 Views: 14159

"there are well known relationships between power and speed such that power improvements can be inferred from speed improvements, all else being the same"

There's the crux of it. You have no idea if all else was the same. You have no idea if the improvements in speed these people report was due to equipment changes, differences in wind or course conditions, or changes in training that have nothing to do with power cranks.

"Whether we give 40% or not to each person, they can feel certain that whatever improvement they see from using the product the cost of the cranks is worth it to them to see it."

So it doesn't matter if there is any substance to the 40% claim, as long as customers like their power cranks? Great (and convenient) logic, Frank!

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 15:28

Post #440 of 544 Views: 14119

"Not many products offer what we do, in fact, I don't know another one"

Costco. Sure, Costco isn't a product, but they offer money back on the products they sell....without a time limit (other tha mp3 players, tv's, etc which are 90 days)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 15:43

Post #441 of 544 Views: 14112

In Reply To:

"Not many products offer what we do, in fact, I don't know another one"

Costco. Sure, Costco isn't a product, but they offer money back on the products they sell....without a time limit (other tha mp3 players, tv's, etc which are 90 days)

Then I suggest you buy all your triathlon or cycling related needs at Costco. I bought my current bike there and I am quite happy with it.

But, if you don't find that Costco meets all your cycling or triathlon needs, give me another instance that might relate to this group. wheels, bikes, frames, coaching services, pedals, cranks, tires, energy bars, etc.

I can think of one that has a "similar" guarantee, but you got to jump through a lot of hoops to qualify for the refund. No hoops at PowerCranks. You are either happy with the purchase or you return it for your money back

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 15:45

Post #442 of 544 Views: 14111

In Reply To:

"there are well known relationships between power and speed such that power improvements can be inferred from speed improvements, all else being the same"

There's the crux of it. You have no idea if all else was the same. You have no idea if the improvements in speed these people report was due to equipment changes, differences in wind or course conditions, or changes in training that have nothing to do with power cranks.

"Whether we give 40% or not to each person, they can feel certain that whatever improvement they see from using the product the cost of the cranks is worth it to them to see it."

So it doesn't matter if there is any substance to the 40% claim, as long as customers like their power cranks? Great (and convenient) logic, Frank!

OK Mr. Donm, I was out for a ride and thinking about this. Here are a few reasons I continue to make my 40% power improvement claim even though many like yourself think it is completely off the wall for me to do so.

1. Almost every critic of this claim has never trained with the product. Many of them have never even seen it. What do they know what it can do or what it can not?

2. I cannot think of a single instance where a customer has come back to us and said they felt our claim was outrageous or that it mislead them. Occasionally customers do send their cranks back for refund but, when asked for a reason, it is usually something like "I could never learn to do it" or "they take the fun out of riding for me", things like that. Never, you mislead me with your outrageous claim.

3. Customers who do report substantial improvement in the 40% range do, occasionally, tell us it is the only change they made. The customers, many of whom are not neophytes to cycling, attribute the improvement to the PowerCranks. Isn't their opinion worth something? Isn't their opinion worth more than the opinion of people who have never trained with the product?

4. There are a lot of PowerCrankers here at slowtwitch. How many of them are bashing the claims?

5. People seem to think I am posting here to make sales. while some of these threads undoubtably lead to a few sales, it cannot be a huge number as the number of people who see these threads is very limited. The biggest factor in our increasing sales is word of mouth. Something has to account for this. One explanation might be that the product just might do what we claim, or close thereto.

I know pretty much all the data that has ever been accumulated on this product. I believe it supports our claim. If future data suggests the claim should be modified, I will do so.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 15:45

Post #443 of 544 Views: 14110

"But, if you don't find that Costco meets all your cycling or triathlon needs, give me another instance that might relate to this group. wheels, bikes, frames, coaching services, pedals, cranks, tires, energy bars, etc"

Performance Bicycle. http://www.performancebike.com/index.cfm

No coaching services, but you can get wheels, bikes, frames, pedals, cranks, tires, energy bars, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 15:55

Post #444 of 544 Views: 14102

from the site:
Performance guarantees satisfaction with every product we sell. If an item does not meet your expectation, please follow these procedures to insure a prompt replacement, refund, or credit:

Using a good carton, return package via insured US Mail or other Parcel Carrier of your choice. (Performance will refund the actual ground shipping costs to return damaged merchandise or to return merchandise due to a mis-shipment).
Complete the returns form on the back of your packing slip. If you do not have your packing slip, please include a note stating purchaser's name, address and approximate date of purchase.
Send returns to: PBS Returns Dept., 144 Old Lystra Road, Chapel Hill, NC 27514-2741 (we do not accept CODs).
Keep a record of shipment until you have received credit or replacement merchandise.

For additional information on our return policies, please contact our Customer Service department at 800-727-2433, or e-mail us at customerservice@performanceinc.com."
I guess they might refund the full amount on a set of wheels after you have put on a couple of thousand miles on them in 90 days but it is not entirely clear since one might need some "additional information" to know for sure.
But, let us assume it is true, they are a retailer trying to get a competitive edge. Give me a manufacturers then. Such that it doesn't matter where you make your purchase.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:08

Post #445 of 544 Views: 14092

"OK Mr. Donm, I was out for a ride and thinking about this. Here are a few reasons I continue to make my 40% power improvement claim even though many like yourself think it is completely off the wall for me to do so"

"1. Almost every critic of this claim has never trained with the product. Many of them have never even seen it. What do they know what it can do or what it can not?"

That doesn't back your claim of a 40% increase.

"2. I cannot think of a single instance where a customer has come back to us and said they felt our claim was outrageous or that it mislead them. Occasionally customers do send their cranks back for refund but, when asked for a reason, it is usually something like "I could never learn to do it" or "they take the fun out of riding for me", things like that. Never, you mislead me with your outrageous claim"

That doesn't back your claim of a 40% increase. What about all of the pairs for sale on eBay and the ST classifieds at any given time? I wonder why they don't want theirs. If they see the benefit, why would ANYONE want to sell their set?

"3. Customers who do report substantial improvement in the 40% range do, occasionally, tell us it is the only change they made. The customers, many of whom are not neophytes to cycling, attribute the improvement to the PowerCranks. Isn't their opinion worth something? Isn't their opinion worth more than the opinion of people who have never trained with the product?"

So occasionally it works, or so people say. Of course, this is opinion. And since they aren't beginners, they must know better than people with PhD's in exercise phys or guys who have been coaching endurance athletes for years...at least they and you think so; but then again, you can't prove it.

"4. There are a lot of PowerCrankers here at slowtwitch. How many of them are bashing the claims?"

A few don't speak highly of them. Then again, had I paid $1k for a training aid and decided I didn't think it worked well, I'd keep quiet about it as well. It'd be embarrassing to me to have all of these naysayers, go against them, then admit they were right. But that's just me.

"5. People seem to think I am posting here to make sales. while some of these threads undoubtably lead to a few sales, it cannot be a huge number as the number of people who see these threads is very limited. The biggest factor in our increasing sales is word of mouth. Something has to account for this. One explanation might be that the product just might do what we claim, or close thereto"

That doesn't back your claim of a 40% increase.

"I know pretty much all the data that has ever been accumulated on this product. I believe it supports our claim"

Believing something doesn't make it true.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 23, 07 16:19

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:16

Post #446 of 544 Views: 14088

Does that sound difficult to you? Put what you want to return into a box, and toss in a slip to let us know who you are. Drop in the mail with some type of delivery confirmation.

Wow, I can't believe all of those hoops you have to jump through! Frank, that's the basic procedure to mail ANYTHING. There is no possible way, that I can see, to make returning something via mail any easier.

And just so you know, I bought a set of Mavic CrossMax SL's from performance this spring. I rode them in 4 races (3 XTERRA's and 1 XC MTB race), and through probably 200 training miles. I couldn't get a set of brake pads to work quietly for the life of me, so I sent them back. Dropped them in the same box they were shipped to me, and had my money back in my account in about 6 days from the day I took them to the UPS Store. I just dropped the receipt in the box that I received when I bought them, and BAM, no problem. I think I had those wheels from Feb-July, so about 5 months or so. No questions asked.

So no Frank, no additional information is needed. But nice try.

"But, let us assume it is true, they are a retailer trying to get a competitive edge. Give me a manufacturers then. Such that it doesn't matter where you make your purchase"

What do you want now? Another manufacturer that gives a 90 day return policy? How about you give me another manufacturer that makes such outrageous claims with no data to back them up. I've given you two examples already, you give me one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:25

Post #447 of 544 Views: 14075

"How about you give me another manufacturer that makes such outrageous claims with no data to back them up. I've given you two examples already, you give me one. "

Computrainer.

30 minutes off your IM bike split, Guaranteed.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 23, 07 16:28

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:32

Post #448 of 544 Views: 14060

I can't find that on their site, though I trust you (I do see where they say a 20-30% increase in power, so they are saying somewhere between 50-75% of the increase you are claiming). So, let's get the inventor of Computrainer on ST and ask him where his proof is. I won't discriminate, I'm happy to ask for proof from them as well as you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:37

Post #449 of 544 Views: 14054

Holy crap, are you kidding me? Yes, RacerMate has some hoops to jump through, but they give you 12 months!!! 365 days against your 90! And their stipulations just make you use it.

The original purchaser of a CompuTrainer may return it within 12 months of the purchase date for a refund of the purchase price if his/her cycling power (watts) and speed have not increased by 2 MPH or more after training on it for a minimum of 3 days/week, a minimum of one hour per day, for 5 consecutive months. The following conditions apply to this Guarantee.

1) The 5 month period begins as soon as the purchaser starts using the CompuTrainer. The date of first use must be within 6 months of the purchase date. The 5 month period ends 22 weeks from the date of first use.

2) The Racelog option within the 3D software �Options menu� must be activated and the actual racelog.csv (which lists the dates and actual training times for the 22 weeks use on the CompuTrainer) must be provided.

3) The beginning power and speed used as the basis for the determination of the percentage increases are to be determined within 3 days of the date of first use. Power and speed are defined as the average speed and average watts recorded on the standard CompuTrainer 10K Time Trial course which can be downloaded from the web site. The beginning 10k time trial performance must be saved in the CompuTrainer 3D software to substantiate the initial average power and average speed results.

4) At approximately one month intervals four additional 10K time trials are to be saved (recorded) using CompuTrainer 3D as evidence of the continuous 5 month training program with the last time trial recorded at the end of the 5 month period.

5) It is assumed that a CompuTrainer returned under this Guarantee will show signs of normal use. An adjustment in the refund amount of the original purchase price, excluding freight, will be made for damages which occur during return transportation, for missing parts, and for water damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:41

Post #450 of 544 Views: 14051

In Reply To:

I can't find that on their site, though I trust you (I do see where they say a 20-30% increase in power, so they are saying somewhere between 50-75% of the increase you are claiming). So, let's get the inventor of Computrainer on ST and ask him where his proof is. I won't discriminate, I'm happy to ask for proof from them as well as you.

Look on the right at the ads right here on ST. Look for the CT ad. That is where it is. Why hadn't you noticed it? Our ad makes no specific claim. Why is there no outrage here about that claim? They are guaranteeing race performance improvement and you can be sure no study exists to support it. Even I am not so bold to do that as lots of things can hurt race performance? While I suggest how much improvement one might see all I really guarantee is that one will be happy with what improvement they actually see for how much they spent, whatever their level. That doesn't seem to outrageous to me.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 16:49

Post #451 of 544 Views: 14362

In Reply To:

Holy crap, are you kidding me? Yes, RacerMate has some hoops to jump through, but they give you 12 months!!! 365 days against your 90! And their stipulations just make you use it.

The original purchaser of a CompuTrainer may return it within 12 months of the purchase date for a refund of the purchase price if his/her cycling power (watts) and speed have not increased by 2 MPH or more after training on it for a minimum of 3 days/week, a minimum of one hour per day, for 5 consecutive months. The following conditions apply to this Guarantee.

1) The 5 month period begins as soon as the purchaser starts using the CompuTrainer. The date of first use must be within 6 months of the purchase date. The 5 month period ends 22 weeks from the date of first use.

2) The Racelog option within the 3D software �Options menu� must be activated and the actual racelog.csv (which lists the dates and actual training times for the 22 weeks use on the CompuTrainer) must be provided.

3) The beginning power and speed used as the basis for the determination of the percentage increases are to be determined within 3 days of the date of first use. Power and speed are defined as the average speed and average watts recorded on the standard CompuTrainer 10K Time Trial course which can be downloaded from the web site. The beginning 10k time trial performance must be saved in the CompuTrainer 3D software to substantiate the initial average power and average speed results.

4) At approximately one month intervals four additional 10K time trials are to be saved (recorded) using CompuTrainer 3D as evidence of the continuous 5 month training program with the last time trial recorded at the end of the 5 month period.

5) It is assumed that a CompuTrainer returned under this Guarantee will show signs of normal use. An adjustment in the refund amount of the original purchase price, excluding freight, will be made for damages which occur during return transportation, for missing parts, and for water damage.

The ad on ST guarantees one will take 30 minutes off their IM bike split. The fine print you have provided seems to say one will see 2 mph improvement over 10 k. Where is the 30 minutes off an IM bike split guarantee? That is what the ad says. Where is the meat? As you said: "Holy crap, are you kidding me?" Holy crap indeed batman.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 17:09

Post #452 of 544 Views: 14347

Ah, I see your problem. COMPUTRAINER HAS THE USER TESTING AT 10K INTERVALS. They are guaranteeing a 2mph increase, but not 2mph just for the 10k test. The 10k is only there to do benchmarks.

22.4 mph for an IM would give you a 5h split. 24.4 mph would give you a split just a hair over 4:30...4:36 I think. Regardless, as I said, let's get their inventor on here and ask them where their data comes from to make that guarantee. It seems possible, but tough. It would take a lot of work.

On a side note, keep this in mind: they guarantee a 2 mph increase over 5 months. They also give you a 12 month time frame. Do you see a difference between this claim and yours? Oh yeah, their claim is actually possible INSIDE the time limit! Your guarantee takes what, 9 months? You give someone 90 days? Oh wait, seeing the improvement you guarantee isn't possible inside the time frame.

The BIG difference is that someone can test their guarantee to full extent of it, and evaluate for themselves if it works. With your guarantee, they can try it for the first 90 days and hope that they improve/continue to improve to the point you claim for the next 6 months (after day 90 to the 9 month claim time it takes to see 40%).

Holy crap indeed catwoman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 23, 07 17:13

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 17:16

Post #453 of 544 Views: 14341

One final point, then I am out for the night:

If you're really upset about the Computrainer claim, ask them about it. Not me. I would be MUCH more likely to take them up on their product based on the possibility of taking them up on their guarantee. If your guarantee was for 12 months, you might have sold me a pair....maybe. but when you make a claim that something takes 9 months (or whatever your claim is) and only give someone 90 days to evaluate, well, then the customer is SOL when the 9 months is up and don't get the results you guarantee.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 17:28

Post #454 of 544 Views: 14337

In Reply To:

One final point, then I am out for the night:

If you're really upset about the Computrainer claim, ask them about it. Not me. I would be MUCH more likely to take them up on their product based on the possibility of taking them up on their guarantee. If your guarantee was for 12 months, you might have sold me a pair....maybe. but when you make a claim that something takes 9 months (or whatever your claim is) and only give someone 90 days to evaluate, well, then the customer is SOL when the 9 months is up and don't get the results you guarantee.

No, I am not upset about their ad. You asked me for an example of another manufacturer with an "outrageous" claim. I consider a 30 minute IM bike split improvement guarantee to be pretty outrageous. I, at one time, considered a performance improvement guarantee, and decided the requirements required would be unworkable for us. At least CT has a built in method of documenting work done and performance improement. We don't. 30 minutes isn't much if you are currently at a 7 hour split. It is a lot if you are at 5:30. I decided on a satisfaction guarantee instead.

3 months is plenty for our users to understand the potential of the product. Ask any of them. You wouldn't know because you, apparently, haven't used it. Read the what I say and claim. I don't guarantee a specific result in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, or forever. I suggest what our typical new user will see after one season with them. But, I only guarantee they will be happy with the the cost benefit relationship they see in the product within 3 months. If they think their benefits are not going to live up to my "claims" or to their expectation based upon my claims within three months they have risked essentially nothing. That doesn't seem so outrageous to me.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Last edited by: Frank Day: Nov 23, 07 17:32

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 18:48

Post #455 of 544 Views: 14303

Frank:

Fair enough. Thanks.

--Robert

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [House] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 19:34

Post #456 of 544 Views: 14273

In Reply To:

You know I read the first couple of pages when this thread started and then saw it devolve into the typical "Frank vs. Everyone Who Does Not Claim PC's Are God's Gift To Us" thread so i stopped reading it, but these last few pages have been gold. It's like being sucked into a tv show that starts out good, becomes predictable and then throws a tasty new plot line in. Thanks!

I let this thread run up a couple hundred posts before I picked it up again today. The sudden spike told me everything I needed to know... a faked file somehow showed up. And then I open up the thread and EXACTLY what I expected. This is as predictable as Melrose Place. And that data is clearly maipulated, and NOT the fault of the PT.

Is there ANYONE else who didn't think this would be the result weeks ago when we were waiting for the file???

MOST____CLASSIC_____THREAD_____EVER!!!

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 21:01

Post #457 of 544 Views: 14246

For once I'm going to stop hassling you on this. Let me ask you something that isn't a loaded question: How are these MTBers using PC's? And are they sponsored or did they pick them up on their own? Also, do they have any data at all (I know it can be touch for MTB data since power is tough/impossible to get accurately off-road with consistency)? If they don't have power data I wouldn't be surprised at all, and it'd be NO knock on your part all for them.

Kiara Bissaro
Ryder Hesjedal
Andreas Hestler
Geoff Kabush
Steve Larsen
Ned Overend
Chrissy Redden
Peter WedgeI have a lot of respect for what all of these people can do on a MTB, and I'd like to know what they think. I already watched the interview you had with Conrad, thanks for that. I'm hoping to see him next season and actually talk to him a bit as well. One of the guys on my team knows him fairly well, so I bet I could steal a little of his time.

As much as I hassle you (and especially Dave), if Ned, Geoff, Steve, and Conrad all say PC's helped them, by golly, I might be persuaded to at least give them a shot!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 21:19

Post #458 of 544 Views: 14241

I don't mean to pile on but if this is the "most classic thread ever", it's a sign of how slowtwitch is co-dependent with powercranks....

the evening starts merrily with a quick round at the ST bar, but somehow there's always time for another round and somebody insists on toasting powercranks... before you know it, bar stools and bottles are flying,...

and yet, the ST bar opens right back up for business in the morning... and there's a guy in his wrestling shorts slowly waking up at the end of the bar claiming 40% power increase, and across the room, there's another dude who stirs and shouts "no way" as he bolts up and hits his head on the underside of a table ... but if you ask either of them to explain what the other is saying, they just give you a blank look, shake their head and order another drink...

maybe it is the most classic thread ever!

gotrime
-
the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step or swim or bike

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 21:49

Post #459 of 544 Views: 14214

In Reply To:

No, your analysis is correct. My only problem is the attribution that the only explanation for this "corruption" is the deliberate manipulation of the file by Joaquin to make himself look better than he is. There is actually no evidence the power numbers are suspect (since his reported time and power comports with the analyticcycling estimate for this climb and there was a witness to the effort who states he believes the reported time to be correct), only the speed and HR numbers are truly bizarre as I understand it.

Huh? Frank, the average power number which you say isn't "suspect" is created DIRECTLY from the values in the file which are obviously false. How can the individual data points be "suspect", yet the average of those values NOT be "suspect"? Look at this plot and tell me that it's not obvious that the power data isn't fudged with the blatant "cut and pasting" and repetition of power sequences. In fact, the beginning sequence is EXACTLY repeated at around minute 368 with the huge power spike up to EXACTLY 539 watts:

You also hang your hat on the fact that the overall distance is correct. Well, what happens if we calculate the apparent speed values by simply taking the distance increment recorded every 1.26s and multipy by 3600/1.26 to get km/hr? Here it is:

Look at that. Besides the long periods of EXACTLY constant speeds, the first few minutes of the file show multiple step changes in velocity between EXACTLY 25.71 km/hr and 17.41 km/hr in 1.26s!

BUT, and this is what you want us to believe, that data is no good, but somehow the averages are miraculously correct? Are you serious??

So, let's summarize:
1. The power data is obviously false and "cut and pasted"...yet the average is somehow OK because it's close to what he said it would be?
2. The speed calculated from the distance data requires massive step changes in velocity...yet the average is OK?
3. The speed data recorded in the file doesn't come close to matching the distance data recorded, even though both are calculated from the same internal signal in the PT hub...yet the distance is OK?
4. The data summary from downloading the head unit (as reported by Joaquin on 10/28) doesn't match the summary from this file...yet it's from the same file, right? So the problem is in the hub or the head unit? Really? How does that work?
5. As far as we know, the only person who has had access to this file prior to it's dissemination is Joaquin. That seems to cut down the possible "suspects" pretty quickly.

In Reply To:

So, such a "deliberate manipulation" explanation makes little sense to me, even though i cannot come up with another one.

How about someone trying to come up with a file that gives an average power and distance that they said it should have, yet not being "savvy" enough to realize that the way they are going about it would be VERY easy to be detected? No need to figure out any Machiavellian intent when simple incompetence will suffice.

In Reply To:

The file is corrupted. How it got that way is unknown although some here have speculated nefarious intent, even though they have no proof of same. Anyhow, IMHO, the data should not be used to try to "prove" anything. I think it should be left at that.

Oh, I'm SURE you wish it would just be left alone and discarded. The problem is, it clearly demonstrates unethical actions...in many ways. No proof? See summary above.

BTW, you keep using that word "corrupted" hoping that it will catch on (and since it must make you feel better.) In the words of another Spaniard, Inigo Montoya:

Quote:

You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 21:57

Post #460 of 544 Views: 14202

In Reply To:

For once I'm going to stop hassling you on this. Let me ask you something that isn't a loaded question: How are these MTBers using PC's? And are they sponsored or did they pick them up on their own? Also, do they have any data at all (I know it can be touch for MTB data since power is tough/impossible to get accurately off-road with consistency)? If they don't have power data I wouldn't be surprised at all, and it'd be NO knock on your part all for them.

Kiara Bissaro
Ryder Hesjedal
Andreas Hestler
Geoff Kabush
Steve Larsen
Ned Overend
Chrissy Redden
Peter WedgeI have a lot of respect for what all of these people can do on a MTB, and I'd like to know what they think. I already watched the interview you had with Conrad, thanks for that. I'm hoping to see him next season and actually talk to him a bit as well. One of the guys on my team knows him fairly well, so I bet I could steal a little of his time.

As much as I hassle you (and especially Dave), if Ned, Geoff, Steve, and Conrad all say PC's helped them, by golly, I might be persuaded to at least give them a shot!

I don't have a clue how each of these people actually use them. I know they all have and I suspect some use them much more than others. As I remember, each of them asked us to get on them, we don't force the cranks on anyone. As a pro each would have gotten a reduced "sponsorship" price and a few may have gotten a free set (used to do that in the old days).

I believe Conrad uses them a lot, as he said on his video interview done last summer. He continues to do so.

Steve got on them because he was told about them by Greg Lemond. I got a phone call one day saying something like "This is Steve Larsen and I have heard about your product and would like to try them" I believe he used them exclusively for about 3 months until MTB season started. What he told me was it was a week before he started referrring to me by terms found in the dictionary and he called Greg at least twice that first week and Greg told him to just stay with them. Once the season started he told me he dropped to twice a week on them "because I can't do my recovery rides on them yet, these are not recovery for me". It was when he started seeing his running improve that he started to think about doing triathlon. I am not sure he thought we helped his riding much (he was pretty good before us) but I know he thought we did big things for his running. Steve was one of the few pros who used these enough in the early days that he could have raced on them without losing anything. Of course, he never did. Another story about Steve is his coach was Max Testa. We made an appointment to go show the cranks to Max after he came to Davis. After we made the appointment he picked up the phone and called Steve and asked him if he knew anything about these things called PowerCranks. Steve told him he had been using them for about 3 weeks and they were great. Because of that when we showed up Max picked up the phone and called Mapei and told them they needed to take a look at these. We sent them 5 pair. That is when Bettini got on them. They gave him a pair to evaluate and when they asked for them back he refused to give them back, or so we were told.

Geoff Kabush was probably our first mountainbiker on them. He has been on them about 6 years. I suspect he uses them a lot as his coach (Herb Chlebek) sells a lot of these things for us. He surprised everyone and made it to the Olympics that first year after he got on them and has continued to do pretty well.

All I know about Ned is he came by our booth at Sea Otter about 5 years ago and said he had written a book and would like to try these. A year ago in Kona he wandered by our booth and was commenting to someone else how good they were. I got the impression he rode them perhaps 50% of the time but I didn't talk with him directly about his experience. It was clear he still used them.

I know almost nothing about the others except they have (or had) a pair. Most of these people are Canadians and the Canadian National Cycling coaches are big fans.

Anyhow, you are welcome to talk to any of them if you get a chance.

Of course, probably none of the people mentioned above saw a 40% power improvement - proving again my marketing is all hype. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 23, 07 22:15

Post #461 of 544 Views: 14191

In Reply To:

Oh, I'm SURE you wish it would just be left alone and discarded.

Actually, I don't care if you keep bringing it up. I had nothing to do with it so, however the corruption of this data occurred it doesn't reflect on me. The file is obviously corrupted and is pretty much worthless in proving how much power he sustained on this climb. That was the question as I remember it, not whether Joaquin is some sort of criminal or not.

Anyhow, thanks for the analysis.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 6:35

Post #462 of 544 Views: 14113

In the words of another Spaniard, Inigo Montoya:

Quote:

You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means.

[/reply]

__________________________________________________

Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 6:53

Post #463 of 544 Views: 14102

Brandon, you really should give it a try. Meaning, what do you have to lose? You can try them for 3 months, (or less),
and find they do nothing for you, are terrible, and really let Frank and I have it since you would have tried. Or, ... Smile

Smile

Now, I just did my first long hilly ride on the PC's yesterday. Rode 20 miles around the lake in the hills for 1:20. I was pretty impressed
I could do it. So, the more I use, the more confidence, and skill, I have using them. (Still have not tried to get out
of the saddle with them) Now, Franks "data" says most folks need to use
for a long time before they would see biking time improvements. Well, 2 months is not a long time. So again, I will continue to give
them a honest effort for the off season. This is giving me some reasons to get on the bike, since I do want to be able to say after
next season if they seemed to help me or not. I want to put this to bed once and for all for me.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:17

Post #464 of 544 Views: 14090

In Reply To:

Brandon, you really should give it a try. Meaning, what do you have to lose? You can try them for 3 months, (or less),
and find they do nothing for you, are terrible, and really let Frank and I have it since you would have tried. Or, ... Smile

Smile

Now, I just did my first long hilly ride on the PC's yesterday. Rode 20 miles around the lake in the hills for 1:20. I was pretty impressed
I could do it. So, the more I use, the more confidence, and skill, I have using them. (Still have not tried to get out
of the saddle with them) Now, Franks "data" says most folks need to use
for a long time before they would see biking time improvements. Well, 2 months is not a long time. So again, I will continue to give
them a honest effort for the off season. This is giving me some reasons to get on the bike, since I do want to be able to say after
next season if they seemed to help me or not. I want to put this to bed once and for all for me.

Dave

Dude, this thread isn't about you. Go away. You'd never admit it if they didn't "work" for you anyway because you'd still find a way in your subconscious to think they did (as evidenced by your insistence that they've worked so far). Again, beat it.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:20

Post #465 of 544 Views: 14086

Sorry, not going anywhere. This is about PC's, I use them, and will continue to give my opinion.

Clearly you have not seen the post where I was asked what I stopped using, and the post with
all the stuff I got rid of. Was interesting the person who accused me that I had never stopped
using stuff never replied to that response to him.

Anyway, have you ever tried them?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:22

Post #466 of 544 Views: 14082

what do you have to lose?

1. Access to just under $1000 until you can get the refund.
2. Valuable training time wasted on a product that provides no verifiable benefit.
3. Hassle of installation, adaption/learning curve, removal, package, etc.

Well, 2 months is not a long time. So again, I will continue to give
them a honest effort for the off season.

In other words, you need more than 90 days to see if they're worth it.\

Franks done more in this thread than anyone could have to make me less interested in powercranks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:22

Post #467 of 544 Views: 14081

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Oh, I'm SURE you wish it would just be left alone and discarded.

Actually, I don't care if you keep bringing it up. I had nothing to do with it so, however the corruption of this data occurred it doesn't reflect on me. The file is obviously corrupted and is pretty much worthless in proving how much power he sustained on this climb. That was the question as I remember it, not whether Joaquin is some sort of criminal or not.

Anyhow, thanks for the analysis.

Corrupted implies (to me) that something just went bad. I would use the term "tampered with" or "manipulated", which indeed reflects poorly on you for a couple reasons 1) was it not you that last had the file and passed it on to someone else?, and 2) this is the nth time you've had a chance to "prove" something and come up booooooooooooone dry with yet another fishy excuse (alone, it's not enough to convict, but combined with the other "mishaps" such as the chick showing up on the wrong day, etc., it all fits a pattern).

My advice to you... if you are going to try and "prove" anything in the future here, make D*MN sure it holds water first.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:26

Post #468 of 544 Views: 14080

Lets see. For me, in 1 month I was running faster than before. That is all I need to have it worth it.
If my bike gets stronger, that will be icing on the cake.

When I was hurt during the summer, they saved my season since I was not able to do any run training.
They allowed me to compete and helped me qualify for 2 worlds. Again, they were worth every dollar.

They are very easy to put on and off, if you work on your bike.

Nope, if you give them a month, IMO, you will know if you think they are worth anymore effort on them.

The more folks who have never tried them say they can not work, the more I want to put more miles on them.
I now might even give them a try on my really hilly 30 mile loop. I want to see how much slower I will be. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:40

Post #469 of 544 Views: 14068

"For me, in 1 month I was running faster than before. That is all I need to have it worth it"

Not to mention the fact that you doubled your average training load as well. Convenient fact to leave out.

"If my bike gets stronger, that will be icing on the cake"

A BIG "if" right now. See my sig line. You are saying that with no basis whatsoever. It's like me saying, "Man do I love to eat cake, now if eating cake makes me faster on the bike, well that will just be the sh!t!"

"When I was hurt during the summer, they saved my season since I was not able to do any run training"

Your run training has only averaged about 4 miles per week less than the last 2 years.

"They allowed me to compete and helped me qualify for 2 worlds. Again, they were worth every dollar"

Again, you don't know if it was the PC's, the increased swimming, or the DOUBLED TRAINING LOAD. Dave, ONE LAST TIME, DO NOT STATE SOMETHING HELPED IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF IT DID OR NOT. Let's also remember that your race times were slower in 2007 than in 2006.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:45

Post #470 of 544 Views: 14066

Suggestion...

Just for fun, see if you can do five posts in a row without using the word ' I '.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:49

Post #471 of 544 Views: 14060

In Reply To:

Corrupted implies (to me) that something just went bad. I would use the term "tampered with" or "manipulated", which indeed reflects poorly on you for a couple reasons 1) was it not you that last had the file and passed it on to someone else?, and 2) this is the nth time you've had a chance to "prove" something and come up booooooooooooone dry with yet another fishy excuse (alone, it's not enough to convict, but combined with the other "mishaps" such as the chick showing up on the wrong day, etc., it all fits a pattern).

My advice to you... if you are going to try and "prove" anything in the future here, make D*MN sure it holds water first.

Even if Frank says this doesn't bother him, it does.

What percentage of his waking hours over the last few days has he spent defending himself and his product in this thread?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:50

Post #472 of 544 Views: 14057

All my race times were slower. Guess you did not look at them all.

And, I believe you posted things change. So, what was more important to me,
independent of times, is I won my AG in most races I did, I moved up in relative position,
my USAT ranking went way up, (I guess everyone else get much slower than me).

The only thing I changed in the last 2 months is about 5 hours a week on the PC's, and a reduction
of swimming 25%.

I was thinking. Never ever would I spend my time attacking a product and others for something I NEVER tried.
I wonder what our personality expert on ST has to say about folks who do this. I know I sure have my opinion,
but not being an expert in this field, I will keep to myself.

So, all the folks who have never tried them are right. I guess you are trying to save the world getting us to stop using
them and save us from the evil Frank. Again, everyone just is helping me keep more focus on seeing what happens
using them for a long period of time. Since I have nothing left in this sport that I really need to achieve, this is actually
more fun to focus on.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:51

Post #473 of 544 Views: 14055

Why? Are you reading half empty into my poor writing skills?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 7:54

Post #474 of 544 Views: 14054

"Brandon, you really should give it a try"

I wasn't asking you.

"Meaning, what do you have to lose?"

Access to $1000. installation/removal time. wasted 90 days of training. Should I continue?

"You can try them for 3 months, (or less), and find they do nothing for you, are terrible, and really let Frank and I have it since you would have tried"

Why would I let you have it? I wouldn't be taking your advice if I got them or not, since I'm not asking you nor talking to you until you pipe in. If I were to get them and return them, I'd be VERY hush hush about it because I wouldn't want people to know I bought into the hype.

"Now, I just did my first long hilly ride on the PC's yesterday"

I don't care.

"Rode 20 miles around the lake in the hills for 1:20"

I don't care.

"I was pretty impressed I could do it"

It's never anything other than "I, I, I" with you. I don't care.

"So, the more I use, the more confidence, and skill, I have using them"

Shocking. You do something, you get better at it. Wow, ground breaking stuff here. Although again, I don't care.

"Still have not tried to get out of the saddle with them"

Still, I don't care.

"Now, Franks "data" says most folks need to use for a long time before they would see biking time improvements"

I'm glad you put "data" in quotation marks. Calling it "data" is almost a farce there, Dave. Have you actually seen Frank's "data"?

"Well, 2 months is not a long time"

Depends on the context. Ask something in a POW camp and I bet 2 months is a long time ;-)

"So again, I will continue to give them a honest effort for the off season"

I don't care. And even more, again if I were Frank I'd be asking you to pipe down with your PC praise, since you don't seem to have improved your race times and have actually gotten a little slower in 2007. Now, since you are a VERY VOCAL PC user, and are getting slower despite more aero stuff, I'd be a bit embarrassed.

"This is giving me some reasons to get on the bike, since I do want to be able to say after next season if they seemed to help me or not"

Again, I don't care. BUT, I do think it's funny how you pipe up about the 90 day guarantee but are giving them a year to see if they work....my point exactly.

"I want to put this to bed once and for all for me"

Dave, so far everything you've said about getting faster and PC's helping I disproved in a matter of seconds based on your training log. How will you know if PC's helped if you don't control the variables? I tell you how: you'll justify just about anything to yourself without any information to back it up.

But, if you talk to Frank, thank him for me. Your ignorance on this was enough to help me reconsider my purchase, and him allowing you to go on and on about PC's helped me to make my choice. I honestly last night was figuring out how I was going to get a pair without people knowing so I could train in peace and report back 90 days later. But the way you have been brainwashed on PC's scares the sh!t out of me, and helped me to realize I'm not ready nor willing to join the ranks of you. So thank you for saving me $1000 and preventing me from drinking the Kool Aid and becoming one of the irrationally devoted PC users.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:05

Post #475 of 544 Views: 14042

"And, I believe you posted things change. So, what was more important to me, independent of times, is I won my AG in most races I did, I moved up in relative position, my USAT ranking went way up, (I guess everyone else get much slower than me)"

Dave, I think you are missing my point. I don't doubt that these things changed. BUT KEEP IN MIND YOU ALSO DOUBLED YOUR TRAINING VOLUME IN 2007 VS. 2005 AND ALMOST DOUBLED VS 2006. To account your increased placing solely to PC's is outrageous!

"The only thing I changed in the last 2 months is about 5 hours a week on the PC's, and a reduction of swimming 25%"

But the 8 months before the last 2 also included double your normal training volume.

"Never ever would I spend my time attacking a product and others for something I NEVER tried"

No, you wouldn't. But again, I'm not attacking you or the product, just the claim of how well it works. But, what you WOULD do is defend a product that you HAVE NO IDEA IF IT HELPED OR NOT.

"I wonder what our personality expert on ST has to say about folks who do this"

That they don't blindly buy into marketing claims?

"I know I sure have my opinion"

You always do.

"but not being an expert in this field, I will keep to myself"

I find that IMPOSSIBLE to believe. If you keep something to yourself it will be a FIRST.

"So, all the folks who have never tried them are right"

Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. The point we are making is that Frank doesn't have any proof behind his claims.

"I guess you are trying to save the world getting us to stop using them and save us from the evil Frank"

I couldn't care less if you used them. hell, use 'em 19 hours/day for all I care. Just understand that when you double your training volume you haven't controlled the variables and you have no idea why you got faster (if you did)

"Again, everyone just is helping me keep more focus on seeing what happens using them for a long period of time"

Here we go again, "it's all Dave, all the time!" (TM). But this is good, does this mean you now are tracking power numbers to see if you get stronger? are you going to control the variables now (training volume, type, etc. consistent testing methods, etc.)? If not, don't bother us with your "data" when you have this "long period of time" under your belt.

"Since I have nothing left in this sport that I really need to achieve, this is actually more fun to focus on"

Good! I'm glad we've given you motivation to train. But again, I don't care.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:07

Post #476 of 544 Views: 13593

Brandon, you are welcome. I always love to save folks money and from going to the dark side.

I would much rather continue to be honest with what I do, and what I think. I have nothing to hide.
And, I have no problem finding out I am wrong. But, I do have a lot more respect for folks who are
willing to try new things in life. Since sport is all about fun, and new things to try. Why some get
so so hung up on they could "lose" something. What is there really to "lose".
I bet on your death bed if you were to say I got brain washed, tried PC's, they did not work and it ruined
the rest of my life, that would be ..... Or, I got brain washed, tried PC's, and they actually "worked" for me.
Is either case going to really make any difference? I just know I enjoy being the type of person who
is never will to accept the status quo. Life would be very very boring if I was just a lemming.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:09

Post #477 of 544 Views: 13592

"Just for fun, see if you can do five posts in a row without using the word ' I '."

Or "me", my", etc. He uses those just as ineffectively and often. :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:10

Post #478 of 544 Views: 13589

Again why? I love to be different. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:20

Post #479 of 544 Views: 13581

"I have nothing to hide"

That's VERY clear with as often as you use the word "I"

"I have no problem finding out I am wrong"

No? Well you're wrong in saying PC's made you faster for sure, since you have no idea. Did they make you faster? Maybe, but we don't know since you changed too much in your training to KNOW.

"But, I do have a lot more respect for folks who are willing to try new things in life"

Are you implying I don't try new things? If so, you're WAY off base.

"Since sport is all about fun, and new things to try"

Interesting, I've never heard sport defined as "new things to try".

"Why some get so so hung up on they could "lose" something. What is there really to "lose""

Because we don't want to waste our money, we are hung up on it? How about this: you buy me a set, I'll ride the hell out of them, then if I don't like them I'll send them back. If I do, I'll pay you. That reduces the possible loses of PC's by one. And I've already (as have others) told you what there is to lose, stop asking that question.

"I bet on your death bed if you were to say I got brain washed, tried PC's, they did not work and it ruined the rest of my life, that would be ..... Or, I got brain washed, tried PC's, and they actually "worked" for me."

You're nuts if you think I'll be talking about anything triathlon related on my death bed, not to mention PC related. Let me also mention that neither of those sentences make sense. Luckily, I've learned how to read "Dave".

"Is either case going to really make any difference?"

Yes, one case leaves me $1k poorer.

"I just know I enjoy being the type of person who is never will to accept the status quo"

Nor have I. But that doesn't mean I rebel for the sake of rebelling.

"Life would be very very boring if I was just a lemming"

And this has what to do with PC's again? How many thousands of set has Frank sold? Trust me Dave, you aren't breaking any new ground by getting them. In fact, I think you are MORE of a lemming by trying them because people like Dev say they work. You have yet to do (from what I can tell) and honest assessment of their usefulness. Crap, you ARE a lemming...go follow the other PC users off the cliff Dave, blindly following what they say, because if Dev claims they work and are kept in his training schedule they must work for you!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Last edited by: brandonecpt: Nov 24, 07 8:21

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 8:37

Post #480 of 544 Views: 13566

Off the cliff I go.....................

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Aztec] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:23

Post #481 of 544 Views: 13537

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Oh, I'm SURE you wish it would just be left alone and discarded.

Actually, I don't care if you keep bringing it up. I had nothing to do with it so, however the corruption of this data occurred it doesn't reflect on me. The file is obviously corrupted and is pretty much worthless in proving how much power he sustained on this climb. That was the question as I remember it, not whether Joaquin is some sort of criminal or not.

Anyhow, thanks for the analysis.

Corrupted implies (to me) that something just went bad. I would use the term "tampered with" or "manipulated", which indeed reflects poorly on you for a couple reasons 1) was it not you that last had the file and passed it on to someone else?, and 2) this is the nth time you've had a chance to "prove" something and come up booooooooooooone dry with yet another fishy excuse (alone, it's not enough to convict, but combined with the other "mishaps" such as the chick showing up on the wrong day, etc., it all fits a pattern).

My advice to you... if you are going to try and "prove" anything in the future here, make D*MN sure it holds water first.

It is possible to suggest certain outcomes or theories from anecdotal reports but it is not possible to "prove" anything using anecdotal reports. You will find that very little that is discussed here at this forum has ever been proven despite the fact that people believe in the product or technique deeply.
Corrupted
adj 1: containing errors or alterations; "a corrupt text"; "spoke a
corrupted version of the language" [syn: corrupt]
2: ruined in character or quality [syn: debased, vitiated]

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:31

Post #482 of 544 Views: 13531

In Reply To:

There is not a single shred of scientific evidence that the PC marketing claims are false.

Considering your extraordinary claims, the above standard to which you hold yourself, and your product, really speaks volumes. So does the fact that Joaquin's story is still on your website.

Phooey.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [JustCurious] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:41

Post #483 of 544 Views: 13520

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Corrupted implies (to me) that something just went bad. I would use the term "tampered with" or "manipulated", which indeed reflects poorly on you for a couple reasons 1) was it not you that last had the file and passed it on to someone else?, and 2) this is the nth time you've had a chance to "prove" something and come up booooooooooooone dry with yet another fishy excuse (alone, it's not enough to convict, but combined with the other "mishaps" such as the chick showing up on the wrong day, etc., it all fits a pattern).

My advice to you... if you are going to try and "prove" anything in the future here, make D*MN sure it holds water first.

Even if Frank says this doesn't bother him, it does.

What percentage of his waking hours over the last few days has he spent defending himself and his product in this thread?

The only thing that bothers me about this is the personal attacks on Joaquin. While the corruption of the file may seem to be deliberate to many of you there is no proof that this occurred. The file is clearly corrupted but corruption can come about through both error or manipulation. There seems to be a great amount of glee associated with demaining the person here, probably simply because he has spoken positively about my product. The purpose of this "test" was simply to "prove" he was capable of doing what he said he was capable of doing. The file is useless to this purpose. The observation of the witness who started this thread also supported this contention. Why on earth would someone take a great deal of effort to modify a file to show what they are doing anyhow (or close thereto)? The motivation to manipulate the file makes no sense to me and there is no proof it occurred so I support someone who is, imho, being "unfairly" pilloried because he is seen as being somehow associated with me.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:51

Post #484 of 544 Views: 13513

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There is not a single shred of scientific evidence that the PC marketing claims are false.

Considering your extraordinary claims, the above standard to which you hold yourself, and your product, really speaks volumes. So does the fact that Joaquin's story is still on your website.

Phooey.

Until there is some evidence to suggest that his claims are false I think we will let them stand. He does have a series of testing done by an experienced third party to support his story. This one "corrupted" file does little to suggest the whole story is false. Is the doctor made up? I don't think so. Has the doctor denied running the tests or that the test results do not reflect what was done? I don't think so. We are doing some stuff to independently verify things because of the controversy, like having him tested at another center. If that testing shows a substantial inconsistency I would probably remove it. I won't do so just because of your suspicions. What on earth do you know?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:54

Post #485 of 544 Views: 13510

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"The only thing that bothers me about this is the personal attacks on Joaquin. While the corruption of the file may seem to be deliberate to many of you there is no proof that this occurred. The file is clearly corrupted but corruption can come about through both error or manipulation."

We've been through this 1,000 times--yet you keep coming back to it. I mean, define 'proof'? I'm reminded of the ol' line "well, it depends on what your definition of 'is' is...". Either the file was manipulated deliberately, or the earth tilted severely on it's axis. Who did it? Joaquin? Aliens? CIA operatives? Again, there's no 'proof'....gimme a fucking break.

The observation of the witness who started this thread also supported this contention.

STOP SAYING THAT. KENDALL DIDN'T REALLY WITNESS ANYTHING, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION!!!

The motivation to manipulate the file makes no sense to me and there is no proof it occurred so I support someone who is, imho, being "unfairly" pilloried because he is seen as being somehow associated with me.

It's funny--the manipulation makes plenty of sense to others. But, as I said earlier, we're all out to get you........

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 9:59

Post #486 of 544 Views: 13504

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It's funny--the manipulation makes plenty of sense to others. But, as I said earlier, we're all out to get you........

The fact that something makes sense to people, even lots of people, does not make it true. Just like many here believe that training with a power meter is more effective than training without one. It may be true but their belief that it is true does not make it so. Until there is proof, there is doubt.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 10:08

Post #487 of 544 Views: 13498

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The fact that something makes sense to people, even lots of people, does not make it true. Just like many here believe that training with a power meter is more effective than training without one. .

Of course it doesn't. But the clear deliberate manipulation of the file does make it true--or overwhelmingly likely.

As far as your constant hard-on for Andy's book and training with a power meter, I don't see anything on Saris' website, SRM's website--or anything about Andy/Hunter's book making the bullshit claims that you do--yet you keep whining about it 'why doesn't anyone ask them for proof, blah, blah...'

I'm done. You've gone from 'delusional' to 'shameless huckster' in my book.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 10:12

Post #488 of 544 Views: 13494

I have to agree with you. Until there is PROVEN data, I would think removing any comments from the website
would be the correct thing to do at the moment.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 10:31

Post #489 of 544 Views: 13484

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The fact that something makes sense to people, even lots of people, does not make it true. Just like many here believe that training with a power meter is more effective than training without one. .

Of course it doesn't. But the clear deliberate manipulation of the file does make it true--or overwhelmingly likely.

As far as your constant hard-on for Andy's book and training with a power meter, I don't see anything on Saris' website, SRM's website--or anything about Andy/Hunter's book making the bullshit claims that you do--yet you keep whining about it 'why doesn't anyone ask them for proof, blah, blah...'

I'm done. You've gone from 'delusional' to 'shameless huckster' in my book.

If only it could be proven it was a "deliberate manipulation", that is the rub. The file clearly has errors. How they got there is the issue. You are assuming they got there is a specific way. You know what happens when you ASSUME something!

Anyhow, the power meter analogy has nothing to do with "Andy's" book specifically. There is lots that is discussed here that people express strong opinions about which they have no proof.

Tell you what, you send me a PT file of yours for about a 30 minute climb (or any ride). I suspect in less than 30 minutes I can alter it to show any specific power you would like (something feasible and reasonably close to the original file, not a 1000 watt average) in a manner that would be undetectable to any of the experts here. I suspect than any of you who sat down and thought about this would do it similarly to me. There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 10:55

Post #490 of 544 Views: 13467

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The fact that something makes sense to people, even lots of people, does not make it true. Just like many here believe that training with a power meter is more effective than training without one. .

Of course it doesn't. But the clear deliberate manipulation of the file does make it true--or overwhelmingly likely.

As far as your constant hard-on for Andy's book and training with a power meter, I don't see anything on Saris' website, SRM's website--or anything about Andy/Hunter's book making the bullshit claims that you do--yet you keep whining about it 'why doesn't anyone ask them for proof, blah, blah...'

I'm done. You've gone from 'delusional' to 'shameless huckster' in my book.

If only it could be proven it was a "deliberate manipulation", that is the rub. The file clearly has errors. How they got there is the issue. You are assuming they got there is a specific way. You know what happens when you ASSUME something!

Anyhow, the power meter analogy has nothing to do with "Andy's" book specifically. There is lots that is discussed here that people express strong opinions about which they have no proof.

Tell you what, you send me a PT file of yours for about a 30 minute climb (or any ride). I suspect in less than 30 minutes I can alter it to show any specific power you would like (something feasible and reasonably close to the original file, not a 1000 watt average) in a manner that would be undetectable to any of the experts here. I suspect than any of you who sat down and thought about this would do it similarly to me. There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done.

I thought this issue was already discussed and the conclusion was that it was very difficult to alter a file so that power, speed, distance, etc all were consistent, and that there would very likely be tell-tale signs that the file was manipulated.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [perfection] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 11:01

Post #491 of 544 Views: 13463

ok, just a thought.
you say that there isnt any evidence to prove that they work so to you that means they dont. i cant think of any single thing that is proved to make you faster can you, does that mean nothing is gonna help you?

at the opposite end of it can you think of anything that proves they dont work?

impossible to put improvment or lack of it down to one thing. Training with PCs is just as likley to make you 2 or 20mph quicker than training with anything else

Last edited by: bikedoc: Nov 24, 07 11:02

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [donm] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 11:30

Post #492 of 544 Views: 13441

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

The fact that something makes sense to people, even lots of people, does not make it true. Just like many here believe that training with a power meter is more effective than training without one. .

Of course it doesn't. But the clear deliberate manipulation of the file does make it true--or overwhelmingly likely.

As far as your constant hard-on for Andy's book and training with a power meter, I don't see anything on Saris' website, SRM's website--or anything about Andy/Hunter's book making the bullshit claims that you do--yet you keep whining about it 'why doesn't anyone ask them for proof, blah, blah...'

I'm done. You've gone from 'delusional' to 'shameless huckster' in my book.

If only it could be proven it was a "deliberate manipulation", that is the rub. The file clearly has errors. How they got there is the issue. You are assuming they got there is a specific way. You know what happens when you ASSUME something!

Anyhow, the power meter analogy has nothing to do with "Andy's" book specifically. There is lots that is discussed here that people express strong opinions about which they have no proof.

Tell you what, you send me a PT file of yours for about a 30 minute climb (or any ride). I suspect in less than 30 minutes I can alter it to show any specific power you would like (something feasible and reasonably close to the original file, not a 1000 watt average) in a manner that would be undetectable to any of the experts here. I suspect than any of you who sat down and thought about this would do it similarly to me. There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done.

I thought this issue was already discussed and the conclusion was that it was very difficult to alter a file so that power, speed, distance, etc all were consistent, and that there would very likely be tell-tale signs that the file was manipulated.

That is what someone said. Let's see how right they are.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 11:32

Post #493 of 544 Views: 13434

Frank, why do you so feverishly pimp your product here? I mean seriously, do you even have a life aside from these forums?

You know, I'm sure that powercranks could be a useful training tool akin to single legged pedalling (not that I've ever done that in all my years of cycling). But you come and put forth nutty claims of massive improvements with no evidence whatsoever over.and.over.again. Why? Because of the ridiculous price tag, that's why. Most people won't pay that much for a marginal training aid and so you need to push your device as literally the holy grail of triathlon training. Sorry, but most reasonable people want evidence over blind faith in the pusher of some gimmick.

When a pretty damning piece of evidence comes forth in this thread (and data manipulation is VERY BAD), you do your best to obfuscate the conversation away. What you should be doing is removing all association with Joaquin, assuming that only you two had access to that manipulated file. Not doing so only reduces your credibility further, if that is even possible.

One thing I'd like to see is just one photo of a pro cyclist out training on powercranks. A real training photo -- not just posing with them as (most likely) part of the deal to receive a free set from you.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Laflore] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 11:45

Post #494 of 544 Views: 13418

there is/was a whole pro team that trained on them i believe, just cant remember who. Will try to find out.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:01

Post #495 of 544 Views: 13403

" there is/was a whole pro team that trained on them i believe, just cant remember who. Will try to find out"

You're right, but I don't remember what team either. I wonder why this team didn't win the TdF though? I mean, a team full of CAT 1 guys getting a 40% increase in power should put them off the charts! ;-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:07

Post #496 of 544 Views: 13394

how many people have to gain 40% for the quote to be true??

zipp say 30sec in a 40kn TT for thier wheel, ive tryed it and so have many others and has anyone gone 30sec faster??

for me to go 30sec's faster would be a hugh increase in power proberly not short of the 40%gain PC claim. Rmur could proberly work out how much extra power i would need as he has my data

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:26

Post #497 of 544 Views: 13379

"how many people have to gain 40% for the quote to be true??"

Let's look at the claim: first, Frank says "most increase cycling speed 2-3 mph (that is about 40% in increased cycling power)", so if we need a number, that would be "most". Second, it's not a number of people we are looking for to make the claim true. We are looking for the evidence behind the claim (that isn't corrupt/manipulated) that proves PC's do what Frank says. So far, he's had a tough time producing that information.

"zipp say 30sec in a 40kn TT for thier wheel, ive tryed it and so have many others and has anyone gone 30sec faster??"

I don't know, you tell me. 30 seconds faster that what? A set of box-shaped rims? On foot? I need more information on their claim. Although, I've never bought a pair of Zipps and probably never will. This whole thing bugs me because I almost bought a pair of PC's on Frank's claim.

And for God's sake man, check your spelling/grammar. Mine surely isn't perfect, but wow....

"for me to go 30sec's faster would be a hugh increase in power proberly not short of the 40%gain PC claim"

Then get PC's and take those 30 sec off your time, we'll call it a day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:41

Post #498 of 544 Views: 13366

so if i got a set and went 30sec's faster would it just be down to the cranks, or could it be that maybe a did a bit more training, changed my position a bit, did less training so was better rested, faster day, better diet, the list goes on. Impossible to pin down just the one thing that made the difference, BUT if you think that PCs are the reason then they are, simple. If you ride your bike more because youve spent the money on them and what to make sure you get your moneys worth and you go faster then its still the cranks that have done it because they gave you the reason to train.

Just like all the aero kit you buy, how much of it is the fact its areo and how much it is your head telling you that you will be quicker now. Amazing how putting a new set of wheels or a new pair of bars on your bike enables you to put out a few more watts the first time out with them

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:44

Post #499 of 544 Views: 13364

In Reply To:

The BIG difference is that someone can test their guarantee to full extent of it, and evaluate for themselves if it works. With your guarantee, they can try it for the first 90 days and hope that they improve/continue to improve to the point you claim for the next 6 months (after day 90 to the 9 month claim time it takes to see 40%).

Tell you what, if you don't trust your ability to judge the worth of these in 3 months, for an extra $100 I will give you a 12 month money back guarantee. That still puts our price at less than a CT and it will still be an unconditional guarantee, no need to keep track of anything.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:47

Post #500 of 544 Views: 13361

In Reply To:

so if i got a set and went 30sec's faster would it just be down to the cranks, or could it be that maybe a did a bit more training, changed my position a bit, did less training so was better rested, faster day, better diet, the list goes on. Impossible to pin down just the one thing that made the difference, BUT if you think that PCs are the reason then they are, simple. If you ride your bike more because youve spent the money on them and what to make sure you get your moneys worth and you go faster then its still the cranks that have done it because they gave you the reason to train.

Just like all the aero kit you buy, how much of it is the fact its areo and how much it is your head telling you that you will be quicker now. Amazing how putting a new set of wheels or a new pair of bars on your bike enables you to put out a few more watts the first time out with them

Or, you can do all that training and not see the improvement you wanted then all you have is an opportunity lost. Life is filled with tough decisions.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 12:56

Post #501 of 544 Views: 13340

"so if i got a set and went 30sec's faster would it just be down to the cranks"

Their guarantee isn't to make you 30 sec faster, you just came up with that. Now, if you kept EVERYTHING consistent other than PC's, trained on them for 9 months, then raised your cycling power 40% then I would say they worked for you.

"or could it be that maybe a did a bit more training, changed my position a bit, did less training so was better rested, faster day, better diet, the list goes on"

That's the crux of it, now isn't it? So if I were to offer you coaching services and a "magical pill", where my pill gives you a 40% increase in power, but you have to increase your training load by 100%, would that mean my "pill" was working? Of course not. So if you train more, change your position, were more rested, had a better diet, etc, you can't attribute the increased speed to PC's.

"Impossible to pin down just the one thing that made the difference, BUT if you think that PCs are the reason then they are, simple"

So now if we think something, it's true? That's good to know....hmmm....I "think" I have $1m in my checking account....let's see what Chase has to say about that.

"If you ride your bike more because youve spent the money on them and what to make sure you get your moneys worth and you go faster then its still the cranks that have done it because they gave you the reason to train"

I'm fine with that excuse. I spend money on stuff all the time for the placebo effect. But, if that's the case let's be honest and say that PC's make you faster because you train more, not because they work.

"Just like all the aero kit you buy"

I don't have an aero kit.

"how much of it is the fact its areo and how much it is your head telling you that you will be quicker now."

Don't know, I don't have one. But I think questions are supposed to end with a question mark.

"Amazing how putting a new set of wheels or a new pair of bars on your bike enables you to put out a few more watts the first time out with them"

If I spend $1k I want put out 40% more watts ALL the time after the training period, not just the FIRST TIME OUT WITH THEM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 13:00

Post #502 of 544 Views: 13332

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. You are assuming they got there is a specific way. You know what happens when you ASSUME something!

There's a clear difference between making an assumption and drawing a conclusion. You've made it abundantly clear that you are incapable of or unwilling to understand the difference.

"There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done."

Classic. 'It was so poorly manipulated, that I couldn't have been deliberately manipulated.' Lucky that you're a doctor and not a lawyer. I don't think that works very well as a defense strategy--nor does 'send me a file and I'll show you how well I can manipulate it'.

Last edited by: roady: Nov 24, 07 13:00

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 13:36

Post #503 of 544 Views: 13307

In Reply To:

"how many people have to gain 40% for the quote to be true??"

Let's look at the claim: first, Frank says "most increase cycling speed 2-3 mph (that is about 40% in increased cycling power)", so if we need a number, that would be "most". Second, it's not a number of people we are looking for to make the claim true. We are looking for the evidence behind the claim (that isn't corrupt/manipulated) that proves PC's do what Frank says. So far, he's had a tough time producing that information.

"zipp say 30sec in a 40kn TT for thier wheel, ive tryed it and so have many others and has anyone gone 30sec faster??"

I don't know, you tell me. 30 seconds faster that what? A set of box-shaped rims? On foot? I need more information on their claim. Although, I've never bought a pair of Zipps and probably never will. This whole thing bugs me because I almost bought a pair of PC's on Frank's claim.

And for God's sake man, check your spelling/grammar. Mine surely isn't perfect, but wow....

"for me to go 30sec's faster would be a hugh increase in power proberly not short of the 40%gain PC claim"

Then get PC's and take those 30 sec off your time, we'll call it a day.

Here is the way to look at it. What we say is most of our users are seeing about 2-3 mph speed increases. Now the slower you are the "easier" it is to improve, the better you are the harder, I think everyone would agree with this. So, our slower people frequently are on the 3-4 mph improvement range of that scale, while our elites are rarely above 2 mph. What does that mean power wise?

Power at the various speed below according to analyticcycling.com

speed, power
12, 39.4
14, 56
16, 77.1
18, 103.6
20, 135.8
22, 174.5
24, 220.9
26, 274.6
28, 337.6
30, 408.2
32, 491.2
34, 582.9
36, 685.7
38, 800.2

Increasing speed from 12 to 16 mph requires a power increase from 39 to 77, a 96% increase, almost a doubling, well over our 40% "claim". Of course, this is pretty easy to do even without powercranks if one puts enough time in the saddle.
Increasing speed from 20 to 23 mph requires a power increase from 136 to 197, a 45% increase, still over our 40% claim and not quite so easy to do.
Increasing speed from 36 to 38 mph requires a power increase from 686 to 800, a huge absolute increase but only a 17% increase and very difficult to do. The size of the percentage increase in power does not represent how hard it is to obtain. The percentage increase claim only applies, on average, for the vast majority of the non-pros riding and racing who get our product, those currently with an FTP between 150 and 220. If you are currently below or above that range what you can expect can be more or less than that percentage change. If you want to misconstrue the claim to mean we think we can give the best pros a 40% increase in power on average you misrepresent what we say.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [bikedoc] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 13:44

Post #504 of 544 Views: 13300

[reply]ok, just a thought.
you say that there isnt any evidence to prove that they work so to you that means they dont. i cant think of any single thing that is proved to make you faster can you, does that mean nothing is gonna help you?
at the opposite end of it can you think of anything that proves they dont work?
impossible to put improvment or lack of it down to one thing. Training with PCs is just as likley to make you 2 or 20mph quicker than training with anything else[/reply]

It depends on what you expect them to do. They are ideal, the best equipment ever invented for teaching the circular pedaling style but that is all they are capable of doing for cycling. After a year on PC's when a rider returns to normal cranks, how will his circular pedaling differ from a natural circular pedaler, where in the pedaling circle will the PC'er be able to inject more pedal power. Maybe if Frank could compare these two types of rider on independent crank torque measuring equipment, he would soon get an answer. But if this same PC user set about perfecting the mashing technique, he would find that he would be able to apply even more power with the mashing style than with the circular way of doing it. I can think of one single thing that is likely to make you faster, it is the ability to apply max power through 12 o'c as nobody else can do it. The proof lies in the fact that Anquetil is still recognised as the world's greatest ever TT rider, he used that technique, the evidence can be found in his pedaling footage on video.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 13:47

Post #505 of 544 Views: 13296

"If you want to misconstrue the claim to mean we think we can give the best pros a 40% increase in power on average you misrepresent what we say"

Whoa, where did I say that the best pros would gain 40%? I made a joke about a team winning the TdF, but I'm pretty sure I put a little winky-guy following saying that. I quoted "most increase cycling speed 2-3 mph (that is about 40% in increased cycling power)" directly from your site.

Please point me to the post that I said "PC's would give the best pros a 40% increase in power on average." If I said that, my apologies. If I did not, I will remind you, for I think the 5th time in this thread, to stop putting words in my mouth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 14:23

Post #506 of 544 Views: 13274

In Reply To:

"If you want to misconstrue the claim to mean we think we can give the best pros a 40% increase in power on average you misrepresent what we say"

Whoa, where did I say that the best pros would gain 40%? I made a joke about a team winning the TdF, but I'm pretty sure I put a little winky-guy following saying that. I quoted "most increase cycling speed 2-3 mph (that is about 40% in increased cycling power)" directly from your site.

Please point me to the post that I said "PC's would give the best pros a 40% increase in power on average." If I said that, my apologies. If I did not, I will remind you, for I think the 5th time in this thread, to stop putting words in my mouth.

No, I wasn't referring to you specifically. However, there are many here who have made that leap. I bunched them into my reply to you. They read what they want to read so they can try to dismiss what we really do say. Hey, it is the internet.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 14:36

Post #507 of 544 Views: 13261

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Tell you what, you send me a PT file of yours for about a 30 minute climb (or any ride). I suspect in less than 30 minutes I can alter it to show any specific power you would like (something feasible and reasonably close to the original file, not a 1000 watt average) in a manner that would be undetectable to any of the experts here. I suspect than any of you who sat down and thought about this would do it similarly to me. There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done.

I thought this issue was already discussed and the conclusion was that it was very difficult to alter a file so that power, speed, distance, etc all were consistent, and that there would very likely be tell-tale signs that the file was manipulated.

That is what someone said. Let's see how right they are.

Hmmm. Well, first, let's all agree that whether you could or couldn't do such a thing is not dispositive about this particular case. Second, as I've said, I didn't show all of the things I looked at or analyses I did. Just 'cuz you can't think of a way to detect alterations or manipulations doesn't mean no one can.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 14:55

Post #508 of 544 Views: 13251

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Tell you what, you send me a PT file of yours for about a 30 minute climb (or any ride). I suspect in less than 30 minutes I can alter it to show any specific power you would like (something feasible and reasonably close to the original file, not a 1000 watt average) in a manner that would be undetectable to any of the experts here. I suspect than any of you who sat down and thought about this would do it similarly to me. There are so many glaring inconsistencies in this file it actually suggests something other than deliberate manipulation to me, as it is so "inexpertly" done.

I thought this issue was already discussed and the conclusion was that it was very difficult to alter a file so that power, speed, distance, etc all were consistent, and that there would very likely be tell-tale signs that the file was manipulated.

That is what someone said. Let's see how right they are.

Hmmm. Well, first, let's all agree that whether you could or couldn't do such a thing is not dispositive about this particular case. Second, as I've said, I didn't show all of the things I looked at or analyses I did. Just 'cuz you can't think of a way to detect alterations or manipulations doesn't mean no one can.

Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 15:47

Post #509 of 544 Views: 13212

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

What will happen when you are shown to be wrong? (And I am confident that you won't be able to pull it off.) Will you finally admit that your "Joaquin's data is all horked up, but the averages are reasonable and can be plausible" theory is pure fantasy? Or, will you minimize it all saying something like "Ugh, how I did it isn't anything close to what's in the Joaquin file, so it doesn't show anything"??

I have a feeling I know how this will all end up...

BTW, if someone takes you up on it, the ground rules of this "challenge" need to be the same as "The Morcuera Incident", i.e. known length of climb and elevation profile, known rider + bike weight, etc.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 15:50

Post #510 of 544 Views: 13206

No no, it has to be called "La Morcuera Incidente" :-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 15:52

Post #511 of 544 Views: 13203

As I've already said, it makes no difference in the case of this file--all it will show is that Frank is better at, um, doctoring files than Joaquin.

That said, I'm game. I can provide a file to Frank of a ride up Casitas Pass (sign to the water tower) if you have the profile available (I don't).

edit: um--and no, it's not 30 minutes.....

Last edited by: roady: Nov 24, 07 15:53

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:00

Post #512 of 544 Views: 13192

In Reply To:

As I've already said, it makes no difference in the case of this file--all it will show is that Frank is better at, um, doctoring files than Joaquin.

That said, I'm game. I can provide a file to Frank of a ride up Casitas Pass (sign to the water tower) if you have the profile available (I don't).

edit: um--and no, it's not 30 minutes.....

Hey...I just did that climb today! And I've got 2 power files I could contribute...one from the PT and one from the Ergomo :-)

But if I contributed a file, that would prevent me from the pleasure of showing Frank to be wrong...again.

Someone needs to toss him a file from climbing up Gibraltar Rd. ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:01

Post #513 of 544 Views: 13188

In Reply To:

No no, it has to be called "La Morcuera Incidente" :-)

Excelente! Muy bueno.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 24, 07 16:03

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:03

Post #514 of 544 Views: 13187

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Hmmm. Well, first, let's all agree that whether you could or couldn't do such a thing is not dispositive about this particular case. Second, as I've said, I didn't show all of the things I looked at or analyses I did. Just 'cuz you can't think of a way to detect alterations or manipulations doesn't mean no one can.

Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

Well, this is an interesting challenge and from a purely egotistical point of view I'm very tempted -- but, really, what would we learn? You could, after all, be quite clever and deceitful, or you could just be bad at fakery. In either event, it tells us nothing about the current case. More importantly, I might have to reveal some of the other analytical approaches I've used and I'm not too keen on doing that at the moment.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:03

Post #515 of 544 Views: 13186

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In Reply To:

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Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

What will happen when you are shown to be wrong? (And I am confident that you won't be able to pull it off.) Will you finally admit that your "Joaquin's data is all horked up, but the averages are reasonable and can be plausible" theory is pure fantasy? Or, will you minimize it all saying something like "Ugh, how I did it isn't anything close to what's in the Joaquin file, so it doesn't show anything"??

I have a feeling I know how this will all end up...

BTW, if someone takes you up on it, the ground rules of this "challenge" need to be the same as "The Morcuera Incident", i.e. known length of climb and elevation profile, known rider + bike weight, etc.

Well, how I would do it is not anything close to the Joaquin file. And it would be exceedingly easy. One would simply have to ask, in this day and age, why someone would try to "physician" such a file in any other way. The test would not be proof of anything. Simply a little test of what is possible, at least by me if I ever decided to take up "professional file manipulation" and by some of those who claimed that detecting such manipulation is "easy".

Send me the file and let me see what I can do. I don't care how long it is. It is the principle. Shouldn't make much difference if it is a 5 minute climb or 2 hour climb (where would you find one of those).

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:04

Post #516 of 544 Views: 13184

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In Reply To:

As I've already said, it makes no difference in the case of this file--all it will show is that Frank is better at, um, doctoring files than Joaquin.

That said, I'm game. I can provide a file to Frank of a ride up Casitas Pass (sign to the water tower) if you have the profile available (I don't).

edit: um--and no, it's not 30 minutes.....

Hey...I just did that climb today! And I've got 2 power files I could contribute...one from the PT and one from the Ergomo :-)

But if I contributed a file, that would prevent me from the pleasure of showing Frank to be wrong...again.

Someone needs to toss him a file from climbing up Gibraltar Rd. ;-)

I have one from a rest day ride! I can send it to him--Frank, what's your e-mail address?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:09

Post #517 of 544 Views: 13173

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In Reply To:

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Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

What will happen when you are shown to be wrong? (And I am confident that you won't be able to pull it off.) Will you finally admit that your "Joaquin's data is all horked up, but the averages are reasonable and can be plausible" theory is pure fantasy? Or, will you minimize it all saying something like "Ugh, how I did it isn't anything close to what's in the Joaquin file, so it doesn't show anything"??

I have a feeling I know how this will all end up...

BTW, if someone takes you up on it, the ground rules of this "challenge" need to be the same as "The Morcuera Incident", i.e. known length of climb and elevation profile, known rider + bike weight, etc.

Well, how I would do it is not anything close to the Joaquin file. And it would be exceedingly easy. One would simply have to ask, in this day and age, why someone would try to "physician" such a file in any other way. The test would not be proof of anything. Simply a little test of what is possible, at least by me if I ever decided to take up "professional file manipulation" and by some of those who claimed that detecting such manipulation is "easy".

Send me the file and let me see what I can do. I don't care how long it is. It is the principle. Shouldn't make much difference if it is a 5 minute climb or 2 hour climb (where would you find one of those).

You didn't answer the question. When it is shown that what you think is an easy task is not, how will that change how you feel about "La Morcuera Incidente"?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:10

Post #518 of 544 Views: 13169

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Well, this is an interesting challenge and from a purely egotistical point of view I'm very tempted -- but, really, what would we learn? You could, after all, be quite clever and deceitful, or you could just be bad at fakery. In either event, it tells us nothing about the current case. More importantly, I might have to reveal some of the other analytical approaches I've used and I'm not too keen on doing that at the moment.

Personally, I have the same concerns as Robert. You would have to be satisfied with people identifying which files have been "physicianed" without an exact explanation of how it was determined.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:19

Post #519 of 544 Views: 13159

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Hey...I just did that climb today! And I've got 2 power files I could contribute...one from the PT and one from the Ergomo :-)

But if I contributed a file, that would prevent me from the pleasure of showing Frank to be wrong...again.

Someone needs to toss him a file from climbing up Gibraltar Rd. ;-)

I have one from a rest day ride! I can send it to him--Frank, what's your e-mail address?

We need a stop and start point. Typically the start is from the "mailboxes" (where Gibraltar Rd. crosses El Cielito.) Is the "top" at the intersection of Camino Cielo, or all the way up to La Cumbre Peak (In keeping with the spanish theme, yes...I realize that name is redundant :-)

If you do that, I'll even contribute a "map my ride" link so that more can "play along".

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:20

Post #520 of 544 Views: 13157

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Well, this is an interesting challenge and from a purely egotistical point of view I'm very tempted -- but, really, what would we learn? You could, after all, be quite clever and deceitful, or you could just be bad at fakery. In either event, it tells us nothing about the current case. More importantly, I might have to reveal some of the other analytical approaches I've used and I'm not too keen on doing that at the moment.

Personally, I have the same concerns as Robert. You would have to be satisfied with people identifying which files have been "physicianed" without an exact explanation of how it was determined.

If he (and others) could reliably identify which files are which I would accept that they understand this stuff way beyond my own abilities without an explanation as to how, even though I would like to know how. If we only have one case he would have a 10% chance of getting it right even with random guessing so if he gets it right we might want to do 2 or 3 others. Soon the odds would "prove" his assertion right.

What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:22

Post #521 of 544 Views: 13154

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What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

Umm...so what's the point??? Sheesh...you're SOO predictable.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:28

Post #522 of 544 Views: 13148

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In Reply To:

What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

Umm...so what's the point??? Sheesh...you're SOO predictable.

??? I intend to manipulate the file substantially differently than was "apparently" done by Joaquin. What would my manipulation say about the current issue. People here claimed it was "easy". I just want to test that.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:28

Post #523 of 544 Views: 13148

Hmmm....I started at the driveway and went up to 'the top'. Sorry...I'm only a local 2 weeks a year! (and I know, you'd like it to stay that way ; )....)

I could send you the file and you could probably figure it out--but at that point, I'm sure we'd just colluding to prove Frank wrong......

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [roady] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 16:34

Post #524 of 544 Views: 13139

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Hmmm....I started at the driveway and went up to 'the top'. Sorry...I'm only a local 2 weeks a year! (and I know, you'd like it to stay that way ; )....)

Naah...if you can afford to move here, have at it! It's a free country ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Nov 24, 07 22:52

Post #525 of 544 Views: 13066

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If he (and others) could reliably identify which files are which I would accept that they understand this stuff way beyond my own abilities [..] What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

Well, the claim isn't that it's easy to find a manipulated file -- sometimes it's a lot of work. The claim is that it's hard to manipulate a file so that the manipulation is not detectable. Your claim was that you could do this in less than 30 minutes.

As I said above, at the moment I'm a little reluctant to reveal all the ways to detect a file whose integrity has been breached, and since it won't say much about the current issue I don't really see the point of doing this simply to satisfy your curiosity about whether anyone understands "this stuff" way beyond your own abilities. A shorter path to answering that question is actually to ask another question: "Frank, how much riding with a Power Tap, and how much analysis of Power Tap files, have you done?"

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 25, 07 7:48

Post #526 of 544 Views: 14694

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In Reply To:

If he (and others) could reliably identify which files are which I would accept that they understand this stuff way beyond my own abilities [..] What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

Well, the claim isn't that it's easy to find a manipulated file -- sometimes it's a lot of work. The claim is that it's hard to manipulate a file so that the manipulation is not detectable. Your claim was that you could do this in less than 30 minutes.

As I said above, at the moment I'm a little reluctant to reveal all the ways to detect a file whose integrity has been breached, and since it won't say much about the current issue I don't really see the point of doing this simply to satisfy your curiosity about whether anyone understands "this stuff" way beyond your own abilities. A shorter path to answering that question is actually to ask another question: "Frank, how much riding with a Power Tap, and how much analysis of Power Tap files, have you done?"

I have ridden with a PT, but never really analyzed my files. I no longer have one since the bike with the hub was stolen. So my experience with these files is essentially zero. I believe the first raw data file I have ever seen is Joaquin's. Seems to me it would be pretty easy to manipulate to give a different result. It would be possible to detect what I would do if you had additional information that was not included in the file but if you did not have that information I think it would be impossible.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 25, 07 8:07

Post #527 of 544 Views: 14684

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If he (and others) could reliably identify which files are which I would accept that they understand this stuff way beyond my own abilities [..] What we would learn is that the claim that it is easy to find a manipulated file is true or not or we might find that I don't know how to manipulate a file very well. It won't say much about the current issue.

Well, the claim isn't that it's easy to find a manipulated file -- sometimes it's a lot of work. The claim is that it's hard to manipulate a file so that the manipulation is not detectable. Your claim was that you could do this in less than 30 minutes.

As I said above, at the moment I'm a little reluctant to reveal all the ways to detect a file whose integrity has been breached, and since it won't say much about the current issue I don't really see the point of doing this simply to satisfy your curiosity about whether anyone understands "this stuff" way beyond your own abilities. A shorter path to answering that question is actually to ask another question: "Frank, how much riding with a Power Tap, and how much analysis of Power Tap files, have you done?"

RChung, I know not who you are, but I dig your style.

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Nov 30, 07 23:23

Post #528 of 544 Views: 14507

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Hmmm. Well, first, let's all agree that whether you could or couldn't do such a thing is not dispositive about this particular case. Second, as I've said, I didn't show all of the things I looked at or analyses I did. Just 'cuz you can't think of a way to detect alterations or manipulations doesn't mean no one can.

Here is my thought. Someone send me a PT file of a climb (it could be done on anything but if it is on the flat it is harder to do do and make it undetectable if there is substantial variation and we are dealing with a climb in this particular instance). I will then make 9 variations of the file showing 9 different average powers varying as much as 20% and see if the experts can detect which one is the original out of the 10. If randomized properly I say they will get it right about 10% of the time. If they get it right substantially more than that then they know a lot more of the nuances of this stuff than I do (they probably do anyhow, but I don't see how what I would do to "manipulate the file" could be detected)

Well, this is an interesting challenge and from a purely egotistical point of view I'm very tempted -- but, really, what would we learn? You could, after all, be quite clever and deceitful, or you could just be bad at fakery. In either event, it tells us nothing about the current case. More importantly, I might have to reveal some of the other analytical approaches I've used and I'm not too keen on doing that at the moment.

Just an update here folks, I thought it would be possible to modify a PT file in a fashion that it would be "undetectable". It may still be possible but I couldn't do it. Ken Willet sent me a PT file and I modified it 9 different ways then sent 10 files to Dr. Chung to see if he could find the "unaltered" one. First he came back and told me they were all altered. Well, they were as I didn't want the file times to give it away so one was "modified" with zero change and ten new files were produced identically within a few minutes. Despite that he was able to choose the correct one, rather easily I presume also. While there is a 10% chance he got it right by chance I suspect this is not the case. If Dr. Chung says a file is altered you can safely assume it is. If he says it is unaltered, I would even give that a greater chance of being right.

I am totally impressed. Sort of like some of the "tricks" doctors have to pick up malingering I suppose.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 3:38

Post #529 of 544 Views: 14477

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One final point, then I am out for the night:

If you're really upset about the Computrainer claim, ask them about it. Not me. I would be MUCH more likely to take them up on their product based on the possibility of taking them up on their guarantee. If your guarantee was for 12 months, you might have sold me a pair....maybe. but when you make a claim that something takes 9 months (or whatever your claim is) and only give someone 90 days to evaluate, well, then the customer is SOL when the 9 months is up and don't get the results you guarantee.

No, I am not upset about their ad. You asked me for an example of another manufacturer with an "outrageous" claim. I consider a 30 minute IM bike split improvement guarantee to be pretty outrageous. I, at one time, considered a performance improvement guarantee, and decided the requirements required would be unworkable for us. At least CT has a built in method of documenting work done and performance improement. We don't. 30 minutes isn't much if you are currently at a 7 hour split. It is a lot if you are at 5:30. I decided on a satisfaction guarantee instead.

3 months is plenty for our users to understand the potential of the product. Ask any of them. You wouldn't know because you, apparently, haven't used it. Read the what I say and claim. I don't guarantee a specific result in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, or forever. I suggest what our typical new user will see after one season with them. But, I only guarantee they will be happy with the the cost benefit relationship they see in the product within 3 months. If they think their benefits are not going to live up to my "claims" or to their expectation based upon my claims within three months they have risked essentially nothing. That doesn't seem so outrageous to me.

Wait? So 40% power increase is reasonable, but 30 minutes off an IM bike leg isn't? Riding at 200W sustainable, isn't an additional 40% of that going to drop your time by an unbelievable amount? Like significantly more than a half hour?

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 4:45

Post #530 of 544 Views: 14466

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If Dr. Chung says a file is altered you can safely assume it is.

IOW, you now admit that the file that Joaquin sent to various people had, in fact, been altered, as everyone has been telling you all along. I'm sure, however, that that still won't stop you from touting his "results" as evidence of the efficacy of your cranks.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 5:06

Post #531 of 544 Views: 14457

And whatever happened to the "new" file Joaquin was going to send? Didn't he say he had found a way to get the file off of the PT head unit "unaltered"?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 7:16

Post #532 of 544 Views: 14432

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If Dr. Chung says a file is altered you can safely assume it is.

IOW, you now admit that the file that Joaquin sent to various people had, in fact, been altered, as everyone has been telling you all along. I'm sure, however, that that still won't stop you from touting his "results" as evidence of the efficacy of your cranks.

True, true, unrelated

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [brandonecpt] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 7:21

Post #533 of 544 Views: 14424

In Reply To:

And whatever happened to the "new" file Joaquin was going to send? Didn't he say he had found a way to get the file off of the PT head unit "unaltered"?

I suspect the truth of that file will be known plenty soon enough.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 7:26

Post #534 of 544 Views: 14422

"I suspect the truth of that file will be known plenty soon enough"

Meaning? I think we know the truth about the first time it was sent out....but what about the second time?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 9:55

Post #535 of 544 Views: 14392

In Reply To:

If Dr. Chung says a file is altered you can safely assume it is. If he says it is unaltered, I would even give that a greater chance of being right.

Thanks, but I think that's overstated. My only claim was that it is hard to alter a file in a way that makes it undetectable, not that it's impossible.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [RChung] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 10:37

Post #536 of 544 Views: 14376

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If Dr. Chung says a file is altered you can safely assume it is. If he says it is unaltered, I would even give that a greater chance of being right.

Thanks, but I think that's overstated. My only claim was that it is hard to alter a file in a way that makes it undetectable, not that it's impossible.

I did my best to fool you using all the "tricks" I could think of to alter a file in an "undetectable" manner. I know you told me it was not impossible but it is not clear that anyone who hangs out here has the expertise (except, perhaps, you) to do it and certainly Joaquin does not possess such expertise.

Anyone can be fooled. When someone claims they cannot be fooled they are simply setting themselves up to be more easily fooled, although it may take someone very good to do it. By the same token, when someone claims something is impossible they are setting themselves up to look foolish if ever it is proven possible.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 1, 07 15:17

Post #537 of 544 Views: 14327

In Reply To:

when someone claims something is impossible they are setting themselves up to look foolish if ever it is proven possible.

Obviously nothing is impossible when one is willing to make up numbers to "prove" it to be true.

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 11:55

Post #538 of 544 Views: 14229

I'm still waiting for this second "uncorrupted" file to show up so we can see what really happened on the ride. Maybe it'll show up as an early Christmas present!!! YAY!

Mad

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [triguy42] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 12:20

Post #539 of 544 Views: 14208

In Reply To:

I'm still waiting for this second "uncorrupted" file to show up so we can see what really happened on the ride. Maybe it'll show up as an early Christmas present!!! YAY!

You are going to wait a very long time. Even though he has sent it to me (I see none of the "problems" that were described in the first one but I am no expert) and to Robert Chung, he has asked each of us to not post it here as he is tired of the crap he has received here and has no desire to prove anything to anyone here. He did send it to Robert Chung because he was the only one here he saw as acting professionally, in that he pointed out the discrepancies but made no judgment call as to how they occurred. He came here to have a discussion about the cranks and to provide his experience to those who were interested and simply got called a liar. I support him in his decision.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 12:33

Post #540 of 544 Views: 14193

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I'm still waiting for this second "uncorrupted" file to show up so we can see what really happened on the ride. Maybe it'll show up as an early Christmas present!!! YAY!

You are going to wait a very long time. ..blah.. he has asked each of us to not post it here. ..blah.. I support him in his decision.

Well that certainly is convenient. =)

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 12:44

Post #541 of 544 Views: 14177

Thank you ST, another person who could and was willing to provide his experiences has said
life is TOO short for the ST BS. But, ST has no personal attacks right Frank. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 14:00

Post #542 of 544 Views: 14131

In Reply To:

Thank you ST, another person who could and was willing to provide his experiences has said
life is TOO short for the ST BS. But, ST has no personal attacks right Frank. Smile

Smile

Dave

No "personal attacks" but does anyone have a single doubt as to how the "discussion" would have gone regardless of how his new file looked? It would have simply been the same people espousing how he did a "better" job of manipulating it this time. Why waste the time and bandwidth?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 14:09

Post #543 of 544 Views: 14112

Na, he just would have had the best rider on his team do the ride. Smile

Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: I got my ass beat by Joaquin riding his Powercranks up La Morcuera with a Powertap [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]

Dec 5, 07 18:53

Post #544 of 544 Views: 14052

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

I'm still waiting for this second "uncorrupted" file to show up so we can see what really happened on the ride. Maybe it'll show up as an early Christmas present!!! YAY!

You are going to wait a very long time. Even though he has sent it to me (I see none of the "problems" that were described in the first one but I am no expert) and to Robert Chung, he has asked each of us to not post it here as he is tired of the crap he has received here and has no desire to prove anything to anyone here.

This sounds like a bullshit copout. All of the "unprofessional people" like apparently myself are more than happy to look at a file that doesn't have clear signs of blatant manipulation (by some thing whether human or not) and give their honest opinion. I personally believe that the time/power estimate will probably land him in the 330ish range for an FTP (as I said earlier). Given the earlier 400ish claims and recent injuries and it being off-season this wouldn't be out of the realm of expected. But to cut and run like this just reinforces the liar label. Enough said.

Edit: FWIW I was doing 6x4min intervals in the 375W range a few months ago during the build segment of summer training. Last weekend I just spontaneously decided to do a 4 min interval and was nearly maxed out at 340W. Totally maxed out would have probably been 350ish, maybe. Dropping 30-40W is probably expected when not training hard.

Mad

Last edited by: triguy42: Dec 5, 07 19:36

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