I would try and sneak an extra .5 in there on day per week… OOC is your time and course consistent?
Time drops a bit from Dec-Jan. Has gone from 108-110ish to 103-60ish. Half of the days are on a treadmill, half outside on the same course, although things like wind and weather change. Outdoors I always build into the workout. In doors I do it differently, it was a of MS 4.5x @ 8mph increase mph by .1 every minute for 10 minutes, incline 1% for 45 minutes. I just moved that 4.5x to 5x this past week. Indoors I have just focused on increasing distance, but given that might heart rate is now only peaking at about 132 on the 1 minute at 8.9 mph I’m going to have to move the pace up at some point as I’m well below where I want to be with my HR and I really don’t want to move the distance to much further as I have other sports to focus on as well.
Thomas, if you are doing that much treadmill time, is there a reason you don’t do some work at 8-12% incline…seems like that offers the cardio benefits with almost no pounding. I’ve even seen my bike wattages go up with I go on biz travel and do some treadmill runs in between 4-12% for the entire run and end up with a ton of intensity with close to no pounding. Most people don’t like to use incline because they don’t get credit for as much mileage though…’
No there is no reason, actually will probably move to hill work - I’m a huge fan of it, The biggest thing right now is that unlike a lot of triathletes I don’t have a permanent home and I’m always on the move. In this rare case I have a mirror in front of my current treadmill situation so I am trying to use that to work on my form as much as possible as well.
Dev, what pace are you doing the incline runs (relative to flat run pace)? I have been doing a runs like that once or twice a week warming up for 5 to 10 mins and then spending most of the run in 4 to 8%. Its been too icy to do my standard outdoor hilly routes so treadmill is pretty much all I have for a quality workout. I have IMLP this year and am planning on a strong run so hill work is definitely needed.
What I do is I run the hills at 7-8 mph 8-12% range and recover in between 7 mph at 2% if I want to feel like I am getting on flat, but if I want to do a continuous uphill run then I don’t go below 4% grade. The mix between steep and recovery is typically 50/50 and I keep it short…45-60 seconds so there is a fair amount of “button pressing”. I find the treadmill hill work seems to translate well to IM running on the flats where your legs feel heavy like you are running up a hill.
to add on what desert dude said, i think if you’ve got good run fitness, then you really only sacrifice a few watts if you ride in the evening after running in the morning. it’s not about riding on tired legs, it’s just getting in as much training load as possible. also, if i’m riding the same day, then I really don’t worry about running hard at all. I’ll just let the pace settle where it does.
Averaging my pacing for a whole week, I will hit 40+ miles in roughly 5~6 hours of running. I take half of those hours and divide them up: 2 hours steady long run, and 1 hour of quality work. That 1 hour of quality is not all in the same run though, I’ll divvy that time up among hill repeats, track intervals, tempo work, quick running off the bike etc. So that gives me roughly 3 hours of easy pace running that I use as warmup/cooldown for the quality work.
This week I’m actually going to be doing 7 hours of running, so while I’ll keep my long run the same length, I might stretch out my quality work into an hour and a half. But, this is the first time in months I’ve hit this kind of volume, so I’ll probably keep to an hour of quality work until I’ve gotten more used to running this much.
I think more importantly than being a slave to “hard-coded” workout days like that week in & week out, as you crank up mileage you need to build up to it over time to support any structure if over 40 mpw. Why? When you finally get there–to 40 mpw, how you structure the runs really should be flexible so that you can be prepared to heal the body from being beat up too much. If you’re older (40+), the body can bark at you really quick in high mileage run training.
I suggest using a loose structure but listen to your body to steer how mileage is doled out on a week to week basis. You may have a 10 miler scheduled today but may need an extra day off or two from a hill or speed workout. You may also need to bail on a land-contact run & replace it with an aqua jog session because your legs are too hammered from a previous day. Just say’n…body responses trump “hard coded scheduled training” in a long & healthy training program–another good reason to have a coach, they can protect you from yourself!
Running a little under 40mbps now. Well, with a broken toe I’m currently running 0 miles this week… but normally I try to get in a run of some kind each day. Week looks like this:
M- 4
T-6
W-4
T-4
F-5
S-4
S-10ish
Those aren’t always exactly the same but it’s pretty much how each week ends up. I alternate easy runs with some tempo and occasionally Wednesday is some track work. When I recover from the toe, ill get back to that schedule and then ramp the 4s to 5s and extend the Sunday long run to get up around 42ish mpw.
The timing of this thread is interesting to me as I was just trying to figure out how to fit in higher run volume into training this year. After doing the Pfitzinger 12week, peak 55mi training plan for a recent marathon, I felt that this was the minimal mileage necessary to come close to my potential for the marathon. There is no way I could fit in a similar plan, plus adequate swim and cycling volume for IM, into my available time. I am looking to devise a plan that will allow for high peak running mileage by building/alternating between weeks of high run volume or high cycling volume without losing cumulative gains. Maybe one of the coaches on the forum has found a way to cycle his/her age group athletes in a way to allow for peak run/cycling volume and still balance life ?
I think more importantly than being a slave to “hard-coded” workout days like that week in & week out, as you crank up mileage you need to build up to it over time to support any structure if over 40 mpw. Why? When you finally get there–to 40 mpw, how you structure the runs really should be flexible so that you can be prepared to heal the body from being beat up too much. If you’re older (40+), the body can bark at you really quick in high mileage run training.
I suggest using a loose structure but listen to your body to steer how mileage is doled out on a week to week basis. You may have a 10 miler scheduled today but may need an extra day off or two from a hill or speed workout. You may also need to bail on a land-contact run & replace it with an aqua jog session because your legs are too hammered from a previous day. Just say’n…body responses trump “hard coded scheduled training” in a long & healthy training program–another good reason to have a coach, they can protect you from yourself!
This is actually why I made my first post in the thread…note the very “loose” schedule around swim and bike training with lots of runs filling up gaps in the day (or going with slightly shorter swims and rides to tack on some running)…it allows one to adjust to deal with the body’s needs with the only goal to average around 45 minutes per day through the weekdays. If I feel good, then maybe it ends up being 60 with some intensity…not so good, maybe only 20 min today and super easy. Goal is to just to aggregate mileage because in the end mileage trumps almost everything you can possibly do on less miles (to a degree). As Thomas noted, part of the goal is to log enough today to comfortably get to the start line of tomorrow’s training. Getting to the start line of tomorrow’s training is more important than squeezing out the last 5% of training load in today’s workout…better to sacrifice the last 5% today to get 95% out of tomorrow’s load than to get the full 100% today and 0% tomorrow.
I think more importantly than being a slave to “hard-coded” workout days like that week in & week out, as you crank up mileage you need to build up to it over time to support any structure if over 40 mpw. Why? When you finally get there–to 40 mpw, how you structure the runs really should be flexible so that you can be prepared to heal the body from being beat up too much. If you’re older (40+), the body can bark at you really quick in high mileage run training.
I suggest using a loose structure but listen to your body to steer how mileage is doled out on a week to week basis. You may have a 10 miler scheduled today but may need an extra day off or two from a hill or speed workout. You may also need to bail on a land-contact run & replace it with an aqua jog session because your legs are too hammered from a previous day. Just say’n…body responses trump “hard coded scheduled training” in a long & healthy training program–another good reason to have a coach, they can protect you from yourself!
This is actually why I made my first post in the thread…note the very “loose” schedule around swim and bike training with lots of runs filling up gaps in the day (or going with slightly shorter swims and rides to tack on some running)…it allows one to adjust to deal with the body’s needs with the only goal to average around 45 minutes per day through the weekdays. If I feel good, then maybe it ends up being 60 with some intensity…not so good, maybe only 20 min today and super easy. Goal is to just to aggregate mileage because in the end mileage trumps almost everything you can possibly do on less miles (to a degree). As Thomas noted, part of the goal is to log enough today to comfortably get to the start line of tomorrow’s training. Getting to the start line of tomorrow’s training is more important than squeezing out the last 5% of training load in today’s workout…better to sacrifice the last 5% today to get 95% out of tomorrow’s load than to get the full 100% today and 0% tomorrow.
We just have different thoughts on this. I do 27 miles a week. 3 days of 90 minute LSD hills, cross country. When one is younger, yep, one might get away with all this running. But once folks hit in their 50’s, one
no longer worries about run speed. One just needs to worry about being able to run either at all, or with some type of speed. Just staying in shape to me is more important. I am putting my bet on riding my
indoor bike trainer with powercranks 90 minutes a day, 7 days a week. I few 10 minute bricks on the treadmill.
I have no idea why so many put so much focus on the run. It just beats one up. I know it is easy but. I see so many getting their butts kicked on the bike, and this means me. Very few win on the run,
most lose it on the bike.
Oh well, we just come at this from about 10 years difference of age. All one needs to ask is why are there so few folks racing in the 55 and over AG, let alone can run fast at all.
Dave…don’t forget that not everyone on this forum is 55-59 and they might not even care to do triathlon at 55-59. Thy might be 25-29 and trying to be as fast as they can possibly be. While breaking down is a big reason why less people race at 55+, there are also many good reasons why guys don’t race anymore at that age outside of physical ability. They may have chosen other pursuits in life. Triathlons fit in nicely around work life in the sense that they are a great challenge and you can break the training up around work. Other pursuits may need full time focus that then consumes the entire focus when one no longer works and people may choose to retire from both work and triathlon and do other things that have been put on hold.
By the way, your three days of 90 minutes probably beats you up much more than 8-12 shorter runs that add up to 40 miles. I’ll let Desertdude comment on that though. From a time management perspective, allocating 3x 90 min runs makes opening up time for swim and bike which tend to be more time consuming more difficult. For most working athletes with kids, opening up big blocks of time is the single biggest challenge which is why I suggest to not worry too much about major run workouts and just long mileage a gradually over the week while devoting the big blocks of time to swim and bike.
Dave…don’t forget that not everyone on this forum is 55-59 and they might not even care to do triathlon at 55-59. Thy might be 25-29 and trying to be as fast as they can possibly be. While breaking down is a big reason why less people race at 55+, there are also many good reasons why guys don’t race anymore at that age outside of physical ability. They may have chosen other pursuits in life. Triathlons fit in nicely around work life in the sense that they are a great challenge and you can break the training up around work. Other pursuits may need full time focus that then consumes the entire focus when one no longer works and people may choose to retire from both work and triathlon and do other things that have been put on hold.
By the way, your three days of 90 minutes probably beats you up much more than 8-12 shorter runs that add up to 40 miles. I’ll let Desertdude comment on that though. From a time management perspective, allocating 3x 90 min runs makes opening up time for swim and bike which tend to be more time consuming more difficult. For most working athletes with kids, opening up big blocks of time is the single biggest challenge which is why I suggest to not worry too much about major run workouts and just long mileage a gradually over the week while devoting the big blocks of time to swim and bike.
Dev, I understand that. But if you blow your legs out young, you will lose a lot more than just the ability to do tri’s.
You and others can push to run, run, run until you break. I get it. I just come from the other side offering to folks to think about why so many older folks cannot race, or run. Is it worth the short term risk
and maybe glory to be limping around when one gets older.
I just hardly see folks who push the running talk about this risks they are taking.
So let folks go for it, they just need to realize their are some long terms risks involved. Will most young folks care? Nope. But with age comes wisdom. Most young folks ignore listening to older folks, I get it.
You aren’t basing your anti running push in scientific facts. The more recent research doesn’t support your theory that running destroys your legs later in life. As Dev points out, the reasons for fewer racers at the 50+ age groups has much more to do with life choices that an inability to run.
And, you run 27miles. That isn’t exactly a small amount of running on a weekly basis. I’ve never in my life run over 27 miles in a single week. Everyone has their own bias in life, but most can recognize it. You seem to think 40miles is crazy but 27 is low for a 57 yr old. Some might not see the world as you do.
I disagree with h20run strongly that you have ‘limited miles’ in your legs. This has never been shown to be the case, and in fact the reason why I, and many others run MORE, both now and in our younger days, is to preserve our ability to run (and run fast for our level).
I found from direct experience, that cycling, no matter how hard I go and regardless of how good a cardio exercise it is, is no substitute for the pounding of running. I can be in the best shape ever for cycling for myself, yet be physically unable to run a half marathon at even what I consider a borderline respectable pace and will likely have to walk parts of it, if I don’t put in at least a semblance of normal run training in terms of volume.
I think one of the worst pieces of advice I see for non-hardcore triathletes who aren’t already pushing their training volume very high, and don’t have significant run experience/background, is to ‘focus on the bike’ and neglect the run.Can’t tell you how many people I’ve met in races who thought they’d PR it by crushing the bike, but don’t realize they’ll lose 2x the time gained by being subtrained on the run. Heck, that’s what I did last season as a test, with a bike focus, and a cutback of run volume (still over 25mpw), and I absolutely ate it on the run - worst race run ever.
What I’m really liking about running at least at my nonelite level, is that the leg and cardio endurance from the run training seems to carry extremely well to triathlon cycling. Like a nearly 1:1 rate of return for me, meaning I near equality from running as I do from doing actual cycling training in terms of prepping for HIM distance triathlon racing. I definitelly would be underpeforming in bike criteriums or anything requiring a lot of high peak power without dedicated bike training, but for a HIM, where I’m finding that the goal for an AGer like myself is NOT to ‘win the bike’ but to ‘go easy enough that I can hammer the run’, tough hilly run training is pretty much as good as bike training for me. (The only real limiter is avoiding 4hr runs from the injury risk, so a few long rides def help.)
The only problem with too much hill running is that I think it can promote a quad heavy running style. Triathletes have “shuffle” enough as it is. I hear your point on less pounding but you gotta run if you expect to run on race day.
I’m in that category (with some weeks down to probably 30-35 miles due to life happening). What has worked well for me is focusing on 2 or 3 key sessions of 60-75 minutes (one or two of those are a hard workout and the rest is easy running with a lot of strides). The rest of the days are easy blocks of 20-40 minutes, normally attached to a bike or swim workout. I would find it hard to hit 40+ in just 4 runs, but running pretty much everyday makes it achievable. I run a lot of shorter races (mile-5K - and only do sprint triathlons) and this schedule suits me well. If I were training for something longer (e.g. a 10K), I would probably focus more on a longer run of 90+ minutes once a week.
I’m just getting back into triathlon training after spending most of 2014 and this past month focusing on the run stuff. My approach is not a weekly plan, but a daily plan. I have two types of days that I alternate during weekdays. I take rest days or modify my plan based on how I feel and/or my travel schedule.
Weekday training:
Day A: Swim in the AM plus an 8-11 mile run workout in the PM
Day B: Bike trainer workout plus 4-6 mile easy run
On the weekends, I’ll do a longer ride one day and a longer run on the other.