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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
So I'm doing 15 min intervals at 85% of FTP, maintaining the same power 220 at a cadence of 86 my HR is 141, at a cadence of 92-93 its 151

Is there any material benefit or cost to completing the interval at one cadence versus the other? which brings me on to if I were racing should I choose one over the other for a race distance (obviously % of FTP would be lower)

That is a big jump in heart rate for the same power for an increase of only 7 or 8 rpm.

What are you using to measure power?
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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If you are regressing in fitness, it's possible probable that even though you are following a polarized model, that your overall workload is lower. How many kJ were you doing per week in the under a threshold/SST model, vs. the polarized model?


Team RACC | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew, there are a couple ways you can increase your FTP.

One is to train close to and around your FTP which will yield fast results but may also break you down if you don't carefully manage the time on task and the load.
This is the place interval training lives.
Also the easiest way to maintain if on short training hours.
You are training with elevated lactate levels and this is the devil that will break you.
This is also the reason why you need the rest periods in interval training.

Now the lactate system can be though of as sitting on top of the aerobic system.
So even though training the lactate system will get you higher, so will training the underlying aerobic system as it gives the lactate system a bigger base to sit on top of.

The aerobic system can further be broken down into aerobic fat and aerobic sugar.
Again any lift in either of these processes will get you higher as the sugar sits on top of the fat and the lactic sits on top of the sugar.

At any level under FTP by any decent margin, there is simply no reason for rests, it's simply not interval training territory.
You can maintain it until the fuel runs out in the case of sugar and until you are bored shitless and get a sore bum in the case of fat.
Hence my comments.
You can spend a lot of your time here and it makes up the bulk of your training. Whether you need more fat or more sugar training can easily be gleaned from the shape of your heartrate/lactate curve, with a bias to suit the events you are aiming for.


Please note that I have tried to use very simple explanations here, because you obviously don't have much of a clue. (snarky remark because, well, you started it)

For anybody that does know, I apologise for using the generic lactate term as this seems to be the most comprehensible by the masses, even though it is strictly incorrect usage.


In answer to your original question re cadence, one reason a higher cadence leads to a higher HR is that you are not efficient at spinning that high because you simply don't do enough of it. Once you learn to time all those muscles in sync, your HR will drop and be very similar to your slower cadence, but it will never reach as low because the lower cadence tends to use a little bit of anaerobic power, which being without oxygen, doesn't require as many heart beats to fulfill.

Some studies show lower lactates as well which at first glance would seem to contradict this, but if you run the study at a power level much under your capabilities, then there are plenty of resting muscles to metabolise the lactate so there seems to be a lower level. but if you run it at close to FTP and for a decent length of time, then the lower cadence always comes up with higher HR and lactate levels.

All hour records have averaged around 100rpm.

If a lower cadence really gave you a lower oxygen consumption, then you would find that hour record rpm figure would be much lower.

So in short, you don't spin well and your testing is not comprehensive enough to tease out reality.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
So I'm doing 15 min intervals at 85% of FTP, maintaining the same power 220 at a cadence of 86 my HR is 141, at a cadence of 92-93 its 151

If you're doing it indoors, and the high cadence interval second, then *part* of the increase may be due to heat/humidity causing your body to work harder.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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As mentioned, higher cadence relies more heavily on your cardio system and lower cadence more on you muscular system. So, by varying cadence in training you can put some variation into what system you are stressing/training more. Therefore it is good to do some variable cadence efforts in training to put a bit more focus on where you are weak.

For example, if your heart rate goes up 10 bpm with just a 6 rpm cadence increase, some high cadence work might benefit you, even if in a race you are going to use a cadence of 86. That is not to say that kind of increase in HR is not necessarily bad, but it means you have stumbled on the point where you are shifting to more of a cardio based power output and you can use that knowledge to your make your training more effective.

In races cadence depends on what type of race it is. For a time trial, grinding way may be the best way to over the course most quickly. In crit or road race where quick accelerations are needed, riders need to find a cadence that allows them to quickly accelerate which may or may not be the one that would be most efficient at a steady state (generally a high, but not too high cadence). All racers benefit from having a range of cadences they can comfortably operate at so they can deal with special situations and fatigue.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
If you are regressing in fitness, it's possible probable that even though you are following a polarized model, that your overall workload is lower. How many kJ were you doing per week in the under a threshold/SST model, vs. the polarized model?

Actually in each of the three 8 week blocks where I performed polarized trials, I had to significantly increase my kj of total work in order to match
the weekly TSS I'd been generating just with daily sweet spot training. One of the interesting things I noticed during my trial was that on the second easy day in a row I'd start pissing away blood volume. Normally I never need to get up in the middle of the night to urinate. During polarized training every second easy day/night I'd be pissing like a race horse. I do find Seiler's research/arguments compelling and have been surprised and disappointed to not see positive results from polarization.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
sentania wrote:
If you are regressing in fitness, it's possible probable that even though you are following a polarized model, that your overall workload is lower. How many kJ were you doing per week in the under a threshold/SST model, vs. the polarized model?


Actually in each of the three 8 week blocks where I performed polarized trials, I had to significantly increase my kj of total work in order to match
the weekly TSS I'd been generating just with daily sweet spot training. One of the interesting things I noticed during my trial was that on the second easy day in a row I'd start pissing away blood volume. Normally I never need to get up in the middle of the night to urinate. During polarized training every second easy day/night I'd be pissing like a race horse. I do find Seiler's research/arguments compelling and have been surprised and disappointed to not see positive results from polarization.

YMMV,

Hugh


How do you know the water you are dumping is from your blood volume?
Last edited by: Bill Tyndale: Nov 23, 15 9:04
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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What basis were you using to judge your progression/regression on?


Team RACC | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Nick B] [ In reply to ]
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I had good luck with 15:00 intervals @ 85% of FTP in the past. I think it was new years day 2011 a bunch of us attempted 15 x 15:00 @ 85% with 1:30 easy between. It was epic. Pretty damn hard, but fuel well and it was within reach.

Finding Freestyle - We don't critique your swim. We free your mind.

Formerly and currently Dave Luscan
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I had good luck with 15:00 intervals @ 85% of FTP in the past. I think it was new years day 2011 a bunch of us attempted 15 x 15:00 @ 85% with 1:30 easy between. It was epic. Pretty damn hard, but fuel well and it was within reach.

That's a lot different than what the OP suggested.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
sentania wrote:
If you are regressing in fitness, it's possible probable that even though you are following a polarized model, that your overall workload is lower. How many kJ were you doing per week in the under a threshold/SST model, vs. the polarized model?


Actually in each of the three 8 week blocks where I performed polarized trials, I had to significantly increase my kj of total work in order to match
the weekly TSS I'd been generating just with daily sweet spot training. One of the interesting things I noticed during my trial was that on the second easy day in a row I'd start pissing away blood volume. Normally I never need to get up in the middle of the night to urinate. During polarized training every second easy day/night I'd be pissing like a race horse. I do find Seiler's research/arguments compelling and have been surprised and disappointed to not see positive results from polarization.

YMMV,

Hugh


I've also had very good results doing 2x20's at 93-95% of FTP. I found I was able to do them every other day and recovered sufficiently session to session. This winter I'm going to experiment with some polarization and introduce Seiler's "Magic" 4x8s. What I've noticed so far is that I'm not sufficiently recovered 2 days after 4x8s to do 2x20s at 95%. I guess i'll try my 2 day after at 90% and see how it goes.

There were some posts in the cycling physiology forum (https://groups.google.com/...m/cycling-physiology) attempting to explain how or why those 4x8s are so good, but I just wonder if enough controls were put in place to truly differentiate 4x8s from 8x4s or 2x16s. Supposedly the HIIT sessions were "self paced". Does that perhaps mean folks didn't push themselves hard enough in 4x8s. Who knows. They also tried to explain it as hyper activation of PCG1-a.


Quote:
We know that PCG1-a (a master gene regulator that switches on mitochondrial biogenesis and new capillary growth amongst other things) is switched on during exercise and the effect is amplified when you train with low glycogen


That still doesn't explain the better results they reported from 4x8s over other durations.




Last edited by: mcmetal: Nov 23, 15 12:10
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Does that perhaps mean folks didn't push themselves hard enough in 4x8s

Means as hard as you can without blowing up before the set is over.


Team RACC | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Bill Tyndale] [ In reply to ]
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Bill Tyndale wrote:
sciguy wrote:

How do you know the water you are dumping is from your blood volume?

Bill,

It's an assumption but one I firmly believe.

The quickest response to endurance training that begins to take place within the first few hours of hard training is an increase in blood volume. A VO2 max test done after just a few days of training will show improvement due to this before there has been any measureable uptick in mitochondria numbers or enzymes that facilitate aerobic activities. Conversely, the first thing we begin to lose when training ceases or the intensity is greatly deminished is blood volume. I drink a very consistant amount day to day and "to thirst" while and after exercise. I always notice a substantial increase in urine output any time I've had a large drop off in intensity of training even if addtional duration more than makes up for kj burned. Perhaps it's all "in my head" but needing to get up to urinate in the night is easy to notice when one doen't normally do so.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
Quote:
Does that perhaps mean folks didn't push themselves hard enough in 4x8s


Means as hard as you can without blowing up before the set is over.

They were all self regulated so the parameters were the same for folks doing 4x8s vs 8x4s, yet his study found the 4x8s to give better gains (over 8x4 and 2x16s). It's not clear why.

Here is another interesting study:

http://www.researchgate.net/...uman_skeletal_muscle


Personally, I think tolerance to long steady state efforts plays a part in TT performance and thus doing repeated efforts in the range of 90-100% of FTP helps you to better mentally withstand those efforts even though short hard efforts SIT or HIIT clearly improve mitochondrial respiration.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
What basis were you using to judge your progression/regression on?

There is a decrease in the power I can output for 20,30 and 60 minutes as well as great durations. Interestingly, over a period of weeks my 8 minute power decreases as well. This when I'm doing doing the Seiler 4 X 8 at maximal sustainable power for 20% of my sessions. My best 4 X 8 sessions are the very first ones done after a good long block of 2 or 3 by 20s at 90 to 95% FTP. I've tried both decreasing the time between hard days and increasing it with neither being successful.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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Fortunately there is this concept called periodization:)


Team RACC | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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I asked because I have also noted the tendency to suck up,water like a sponge and an increase of weight after hard training. Particularly when the bout of hard training comes after a period of little or no training.

Not sure I believe it is all blood volume though. I also tend to eat a lot as a response to hard training and get thirsty.

I'm inclined to believe it's more multi factorial, the body knows it's got to re build and respond so it sucks in everything and retains it.

More scope for water retention in muscles than increased blood volume?
Last edited by: Bill Tyndale: Nov 23, 15 13:19
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Bill Tyndale] [ In reply to ]
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Bill Tyndale wrote:
I asked because I have also noted the tendency to suck up,water like a sponge and an increase of weight after hard training. Particularly when the bout of hard training comes after a period of little or no training.

Not sure I believe it is all blood volume though. I also tend to eat a lot as a response to hard training and get thirsty.

I'm inclined to believe it's more multi factorial, the body knows it's got to re build and respond so it sucks in everything and retains it.

More scope for water retention in muscles than increased blood volume?

You can store roughly a metric shit ton of water in your glycogen stores so yes water storage with increased training is certainly multi factorial in nature. When athletes go on very restrictive diets they will blow off a good deal of "water weight" as they burn down their glycogen stores. It's that easy first few pounds we all lose before reality sets in. Training hard in a glycogen depleted state is no fun at all.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [TeJa] [ In reply to ]
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TeJa wrote:
In my experience (kona Q and top age grouper), polarized training only works well if you have major volume. Ie. You are riding 500+km a week, running 100km and swimming 20km, etc

For most people, I would recommend one V02 max workout (115%+), 1 upper sweet spot to threshold workout (95-105%), and one or two long endurance rides at conversation pace. Combine this with a run after each ride and you are being very time efficient.

Polarized training work fine for all level.


Member of Valhalla Racing Team
XC-skiing coach at Momentum Northwest
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Re: Cadence, power and HR in sweetspot - Riddle me this [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Often on slowtwitch perfect is the enemy of the good. Also, people have shitty reading comprehension. You are very time-crunched and want to cycle at a moderate to high intensity level every day that is repeatable. People bash on 85% intervals, saying that you need to do a higher % of FTP and longer duration of intervals. And yet there is general consensus that if you do 2x20 at 95%, say, you will very quickly run yourself into the ground.

Some options given your constraints:
1) ride at higher % of threshold or VO2Max, but do this every other day, and then in between take bike recovery days or swim/run instead.
2) ride daily at a sustainable % of FTP, which is what you are doing
3) vary your approach

My guess is that you (like me and most on this forum) are relatively un-trained, and you will improve greatly with either approach. The key is that you train regularly for months on end. Some people prefer option 1, others prefer option 2. Whatever approach you adopt that fits with the rest of your life and enables you to train consistently will result in large gains. At some point you will plateau, at which point you change your training approach.

It is really not much more complicated than that.

I have similar time constraints: very intensive job, two little kids, not a ton of time to train. I take option 1 using trainerroad's plans and have had great success. Have increased my FTP 20W in just two months.
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