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DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5)
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A rider in the Grand Rapids Triathlon was DQ'd for endangerment. I looked up the rule (below), but what are some examples of such actions? Seems like one would really have to be a douche to get this called.



5.5 Endangerment. No cyclist shall endanger himself or another participant. Any cyclist, who intentionally presents a danger to any participant or who, in the judgment of the Head Referee, appears to present a danger to any participant shall be disqualified.

Below are the other penalties from the race (HIM). I removed bib numbers since I don't care about who did what. Is this a 'normal' amount of penalties for a HIM (438 entries)? One guy was nailed for 12 minutes. Damn. The Oly penalties were mainly drafting and blocking. Standard stuff.

BIB NUMBER RULE VIOLATED PENALTY
5.10A 4:00
5.10F 4:00
5.10A 4:00
3.4D 4:00
5.10G 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10G 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.5 (endangerment) DQ
5.10A 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10A 4:00
5.10A/5.10G (drafting +overtaking) 12:00
5.10F 4:00

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Last edited by: Economist: Jun 20, 15 7:30
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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please no twitchhunt on this. no trying to identify and name and shame any contestant on this thread.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Reality is what the official sees. Officials in all sports interpret the rules.


#howihammer #swimmingmatters
Those who can tri. Those who can't du. Those who won't cycle.
http://www.swimmertri.com
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
please no twitchhunt on this. no trying to identify and name and shame any contestant on this thread.



Yes, agree. I removed bibs, although easy to find. I just never seen endangerment called before. That's why I asked.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Last edited by: Economist: Jun 20, 15 7:30
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Crossing the double yellow line?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Crossing the double yellow line?

I was thinking that too. I crossed the double yellow when a biker reached for his water bottle causing him to veer right into my path. My option was cross yellow or hit him. I crossed yellow. If I could be DQ'd for that, I'd be better off pushing him back (which could be a penalty) or just hitting him and we both fall. At which point I beat him and get penalty.





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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Blowing snot rockets.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Printer] [ In reply to ]
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Printer wrote:
Blowing snot rockets.

Yes, but since it's illegal to draft, that is not a douche move

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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I was standing around the awards area post race when, I believe, overhead an athlete questioning and pleading his case with an official about his endangerment penalty. So this may be it.

What I remember hearing was the ref saying the athlete drew the penalty during a bike aid station. Something about either slowing down to a near stop or cutting off another athlete trying to grab a bottle. It was after the race, and I was pretty exhausted, so I did not hear the whole story.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
I was standing around the awards area post race when, I believe, overhead an athlete questioning and pleading his case with an official about his endangerment penalty. So this may be it.


What I remember hearing was the ref saying the athlete drew the penalty during a bike aid station. Something about either slowing down to a near stop or cutting off another athlete trying to grab a bottle. It was after the race, and I was pretty exhausted, so I did not hear the whole story.

That may do it. I know during HIM Steelhead, the aid-stations are a train wreck. I'm guessing his actions would seem very intentional given the DQ.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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I've DQ'ed people in the past for endangerment. Sometimes it's a clear-cut case: Crossing over into the opposite lane gets a DQ no matter what, though if you can prove that was to avoid a worse situation that was unavoidable (say, avoiding a crash or some other hazard you couldn't account for in advance) then an appeal is likely to clear you. Other than that, it's usually a subjective thing: There was a case where a rider was obviously not capable of safe riding, veering all over the place in a way that made even a quick pass with my moto unsafe. Or a guy who cut into a rider's path halfway through after an overtaking manoeuvre, touching the passed rider's wheel and crashing him.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Someone tried to have me DQ'd for endangerment once. It was a short course multi-loop race. I kept overtaking an athlete who was slow on the climbs and descents and she would overtake me on the flats. The first time I passed was on a descending corner where she had slowed practically to a stop. I came around the outside (not crossing the yellow line) and said "on your left". As I went by she began a diatribe that lasted the rest of the race - what a terrible, unsafe rider I was; how I should never, ever, ever pass on a corner; how was I even allowed in the race, etc.. In the first two turns I let her know I was coming but after that she was always looking back and waiting so I stopped giving warnings. It got to be really no fun and I let her go. Saw her in transition and I noticed that she had been riding her clipless pedals in running shoes. Because that is safe. She complained to the officials and to the RD but nothing came of it. Everyone has their own ideas about what is dangerous - even when there are rules that explain it.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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My first thought guy was crossing the double yellow line. I know that traffic was backed up where Grand River makes the jog to the left on the way out. I slowed down and wasn't sure how to proceed. Cops waived me through so I ended up passing all of the stopped cars and ended up crossing the double yellow a bit. It was even more confusing coming back.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
My first thought guy was crossing the double yellow line. I know that traffic was backed up where Grand River makes the jog to the left on the way out. I slowed down and wasn't sure how to proceed. Cops waived me through so I ended up passing all of the stopped cars and ended up crossing the double yellow a bit. It was even more confusing coming back.

I was pretty concerned that I was doing the wrong thing on that turn. Certainly felt wrong, but everyone else seemed to be doing it and the cops were waving everyone through without an issue. Maybe the race meeting covered it but that is a pretty funny maneuver in a busy intersection, should have put some guidance in the book.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Economist wrote:
I was thinking that too. I crossed the double yellow when a biker reached for his water bottle causing him to veer right into my path. My option was cross yellow or hit him. I crossed yellow. If I could be DQ'd for that, I'd be better off pushing him back (which could be a penalty) or just hitting him and we both fall. At which point I beat him and get penalty.

Cycling refs are pretty good about this. They'll only DQ riders who cross the double yellow with the intent of advancing position. If you look like you're just dumb or didn't know the race had gone to 1-lane you'll be warned. If you get pushed by the peleton over the line they don't say anything as long as you make a reasonable attempt to get back over when you get the chance.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [beercity] [ In reply to ]
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beercity wrote:
Toefuzz wrote:
My first thought guy was crossing the double yellow line. I know that traffic was backed up where Grand River makes the jog to the left on the way out. I slowed down and wasn't sure how to proceed. Cops waived me through so I ended up passing all of the stopped cars and ended up crossing the double yellow a bit. It was even more confusing coming back.



I was pretty concerned that I was doing the wrong thing on that turn. Certainly felt wrong, but everyone else seemed to be doing it and the cops were waving everyone through without an issue. Maybe the race meeting covered it but that is a pretty funny maneuver in a busy intersection, should have put some guidance in the book.

Of all the years I've done the race, I've never seen traffic backed up like that, but I'm guessing it was because the intersection in Lowell was closed for construction. They would have been better of sending cars up to Saranac to cross the river. Certainly would have been faster for them.

I was definitely splitting lanes, per the cops orders. I heard from another rider that some drivers had heated words with the cops about the back-up.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Economist wrote:
beercity wrote:
Toefuzz wrote:
My first thought guy was crossing the double yellow line. I know that traffic was backed up where Grand River makes the jog to the left on the way out. I slowed down and wasn't sure how to proceed. Cops waived me through so I ended up passing all of the stopped cars and ended up crossing the double yellow a bit. It was even more confusing coming back.



I was pretty concerned that I was doing the wrong thing on that turn. Certainly felt wrong, but everyone else seemed to be doing it and the cops were waving everyone through without an issue. Maybe the race meeting covered it but that is a pretty funny maneuver in a busy intersection, should have put some guidance in the book.

Of all the years I've done the race, I've never seen traffic backed up like that, but I'm guessing it was because the intersection in Lowell was closed for construction. They would have been better of sending cars up to Saranac to cross the river. Certainly would have been faster for them.

I was definitely splitting lanes, per the cops orders. I heard from another rider that some drivers had heated words with the cops about the back-up.

I was honestly concerned about getting doored.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [Economist] [ In reply to ]
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Saw a guy cross the yellow line to pass in a no pass zone at Syracuse this weekend. Didn't get caught.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
I've DQ'ed people in the past for endangerment. Sometimes it's a clear-cut case: Crossing over into the opposite lane gets a DQ no matter what, though if you can prove that was to avoid a worse situation that was unavoidable (say, avoiding a crash or some other hazard you couldn't account for in advance) then an appeal is likely to clear you. Other than that, it's usually a subjective thing: There was a case where a rider was obviously not capable of safe riding, veering all over the place in a way that made even a quick pass with my moto unsafe. Or a guy who cut into a rider's path halfway through after an overtaking manoeuvre, touching the passed rider's wheel and crashing him.

I'm all on board with this kind of enforcement. I've seen some pretty stupid moves in races and had a couple of close calls due to other's poor judgement. There are definitely a few folks out there that put gaining a few seconds here and there ahead of their own and other's safety.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [ensonik] [ In reply to ]
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ensonik wrote:
Saw a guy cross the yellow line to pass in a no pass zone at Syracuse this weekend. Didn't get caught.

I was running and saw the same thing...was like "what the hell is he thinking"...silly
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [ensonik] [ In reply to ]
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ensonik wrote:
Saw a guy cross the yellow line to pass in a no pass zone at Syracuse this weekend. Didn't get caught.

Surprisingly, a lot of people don't read rules or don't go to pre-race meetings, or both.

Two no-pass zones in Tremblant (2 narrow bridges). Saw tons of people pass, even though it was mentioned in meeting and there was a big NO-PASS sign before both bridges.

Tons of people crossing the line, especially on climbs.

A few people with ipods and cellphones as well. Or running half naked (even though the race was broadcasted on TV and it was mentioned that even unzipping much wasn't allowed).

I mean... it's one thing to judge whether these were terrible offenses or not, or justifiable, or anything, but man, why don't people read the rules?
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [ensonik] [ In reply to ]
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ensonik wrote:
Saw a guy cross the yellow line to pass in a no pass zone at Syracuse this weekend. Didn't get caught.

I don't understand this - I've done Syracuse, as well. The no pass zone (at least in previous years) was relatively long, but at the end of the bike.

N = 1, but the biggest problems have been caused by relay team cyclists who probably didn't attend prerace meetings and probably don't care.
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [ridinggiants] [ In reply to ]
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The first time I passed was on a descending corner where she had slowed practically to a stop. I came around the outside (not crossing the yellow line) and said "on your left". As I went by she began a diatribe that lasted the rest of the race - what a terrible, unsafe rider I was; how I should never, ever, ever pass on a corner; how was I even allowed in the race, etc..

I did a Tri cycling leg once and should have been DQ'd. I was used to cycling races not tris, so wasn't prepared for all the obstacles. Since teams went last there were a ton of people to pass (and cars!), and it was a hilly course. Right near the start there was a descent where I was going about 40 and approaching curve with a girl ahead of me going about 20. And a cop car is in the other lane parked (?). Barely missed hitting her when she cut the apex. After that I was only endangering myself by passing cars. I had it stuck in my head that it was a race and I wasn't slowing down for anything... doh. Oddly no one cussed me out afterwards... maybe they didn't recognize me without my pointy hat.

Last edited by: rruff: Jun 22, 15 8:51
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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lordhong wrote:
Or running half naked (even though the race was broadcasted on TV and it was mentioned that even unzipping much wasn't allowed).

As a non-triathlete, forgive my ignorance, but what was the rule against "unzipping" and why is there such a rule? If it's hot out, you can't unzip to cool off?
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Re: DQ For Endangerment (USAT 5.5) [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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lordhong wrote:
ensonik wrote:
Saw a guy cross the yellow line to pass in a no pass zone at Syracuse this weekend. Didn't get caught.



Surprisingly, a lot of people don't read rules or don't go to pre-race meetings, or both.

Two no-pass zones in Tremblant (2 narrow bridges). Saw tons of people pass, even though it was mentioned in meeting and there was a big NO-PASS sign before both bridges.

Tons of people crossing the line, especially on climbs.

A few people with ipods and cellphones as well. Or running half naked (even though the race was broadcasted on TV and it was mentioned that even unzipping much wasn't allowed).

I mean... it's one thing to judge whether these were terrible offenses or not, or justifiable, or anything, but man, why don't people read the rules?

Ironman Steelhead has a no passing on the boardwalk that runs about 400 yards (ends at T2). It's about 5-6 feet wide. Last year I came up on a guy going so slow I don't know how he stayed up right. There were about 10 of us behind him. Some of the guys started yelling at him to speed up. I considered dismounting and running past him with my bike. I ended up rolling the dice and passing him. I figured all the other riders would follow and maybe one of them would get caught. I don't think any of us did. I know it was only 400 yards, but I can't stress enough how slow he was going. I initially thought he was a spectator but the area is fenced in.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
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