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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [triblake] [ In reply to ]
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triblake wrote:
I guess my enthusiasm here came a little too soon. I did a recovery interval ride this morning and it was really disappointing. During rest or recovery intervals between efforts, I like to switch to manual or resistance mode, so I can ride at my own "pace". Today I did this, and after I switched back to erg mode for the next interval it wouldn't hold. The Kickr lowered resistance for a few seconds, then ramped up quickly, to a much higher level than specified. I couldn't ever get it back down. Tried restarting, unplugging the Kickr, nothing seemed to help. Has anyone tested this scenario (erg to manual or resistance, then back to erg) yet?


Ah, thanks for this! If someone switches out of ERG I'll reset everything.

Could you send me your logs so I can just confirm what I think is happening did happen?

Here's how to send me your logs:


Open the desktop app and click on the info tab.


Hold ctrl and click (hold command and click on Mac) on the support link on that tab. This will open the folder with a folder called TrainerRoadLogs.


Zip that folder up and email me at nate@trainerroad.com.


Thanks!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Latest beta is available here: https://www.trainerroad.com/install/beta

The app will check for new betas every time it loads.

I've tweaked it a bit. If you get more than 5 seconds of zeros in a row we reset the offset. That means you'll just need to ride for a bit for it to lock in again.

We also reset the offset if you go between ERG and Slope.

Again, if you find any bugs let me know at nate@trainerroad.com.

Thanks!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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OK, First we just wanted to say sorry for being a little quiet in here we had a lot of stuff in the works and attacking KICKR firmware from many different angles at the moment. We have been running a lot of closed beta testing and 100's of hours of robot testing, we really wanted to wait until we had the full picture before letting everyone here know.

Below are some details on our public (slowtwitch) beta of our new firmware. You can either try it now or wait a couple days until we push it live.

We understand that the most important factor for people using power meters outside is to have consistency. The ability for KICKR to be driven from a 3rd party power meter should solve this, just keep in mind that zeroing those power meters as you warm up is critical to getting accurate reported power. When riding outside, a lot of power meters might auto zero when coasting or pedalling backwards, since you don't normally coast indoors make sure you follow your manufacturer's recommendation for zeroing. Note: some power meters do have temperature compensation and don't require zeroing in the same way, ie Stages.

We would love for you to try out the new firmware and give us feedback. Initially it would be great if you could just update the firmware, do a spin down and compare the results to your power meter, ie don't link you power meter to the KICKR, we would love to hear how the raw numbers look.


What’s in the new firmware?

a) Applied temperature compensation to the power from the friction (1), this friction decreases as the KICKR warms up. We used thousands of spindown results from users around the world to help tweak this formula.
b) Updated our spindown calculations based on 100s of hours of dyno (robot) testing. We found particularly at the fringes, high and low spindown times we had room for improvement.
c) Added the ability to source power reading from a 3rd party power meter. This will allow the 3rd party power meter to essentially drive the KICKR's brake.

In our initial roll out we have seen improved results for users just from a) and b)

Getting KICKR Firmware v1.3.32 (will be 1.4.0 at release)


Currently you need the iOS Wahoo Fitness app to link (c) a 3rd party power meter, although once set you can go use the KICKR in another app. (until you power cycle the KICKR)

- Download the Wahoo Fitness app (iOS)
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR)
- Once connected tap the KICKR icon 6 times, it should show a list of beta firmware
- Select v1.3.32, the password is "publicbeta"


Configuring 3rd Party Power control


- You will need to know the ANT+ ID of the 3rd Party Power meter
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR)
- Once connected, if you have the correct firmware you will see 3 new options.
1. ERG Mode Speed simulation (virtual speed @ 0% grade when using ERG)
2. Cadence from ANT+ (steal your cadence from a nearby sensor - automatic if you use 3 below)
3. Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter
- Turn on Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter, you will see a new field
- Enter your ANT+ Power meter ID.
Here is a video of the setup, https://www.dropbox.com/...g30pi/Setup.mov?dl=0
NOTE: If you only see 1, but not 2 and 3 then please contact our support.
You can now start a workout, the Power icon should now have 2 arrows around in a circle (seen in the video), This icon will turn green when the KICKR is feeding power from your power meter.

NOTE: iPhone 4S and ipad users will still see the old red dot on the power page, this is just a bug and will always be red. The new icon indicates the 3rd party power meter status.


3rd Party Apps


Over the next month we will give access to 3rd parties to set the ANT+ ID information, while PerfPro and now TrainerRoad have a version of the power matching we think all users will benefit from the latest firmware.
If you have any questions, let us know and we will do our best to answer anything here. If anyone wants to speak to us directly, just email support@wahoofitness.com and we will keep an eye out for questions.

Thanks
The Wahoo Team
Last edited by: WahooMurray: Apr 7, 15 16:23
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all of this info. I will be doing a power comparison with the new firmware tonight.

A while back I bought the calibration kit. Can you say what the current recommendation is regarding the kit? Do you expect it to provide even better results over the new firmware, or do you think the new firmware makes the calibration kit unnecessary?

I really like the ability to bridge the cadence sent from my ANT+ power meter to Bluetooth. This lets me use the cadence from my Garmin Vectors (ANT+) with my iPad without any dongles or a Bluetooth cadence sensor. Is there any chance you would be able to pair to a heart rate strap as well? It would be great to bridge an ANT+ heart rate strap to Bluetooth in the same way.

Thanks again.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
astig wrote:
Nate, although on the average it's spot on, how come the power seems to wander more on your fix vs using the wahoo hack? Thanks again for your great work!

here's my ride yesterday using the wahoo hack prior to your beta release.




here's todays ride with your beta




In the graph at the top you only had your Wahoo Kickr's ANT+ power paired with TrainerRoad, even the the PM was driving the offset.

The Wahoo Kickr's power is heavily smoothed when it's broadcasted. I think this is because the heavy fly wheel.

A good test to demonstrate this is to use the Wahoo beta firmware and just pair the ANT+ power meter like you did above, then pair your power meter with your garmin. Take the two TCX files in the end and compare them. Your PM will be much more jumpy than the Kickr if there's no smoothing applied to the display.

That's just the nature of measuring power at the crank or pedals. It's generally pretty jumpy, even if the Kickr has someone locked in exactly at 200, your Quarq or SRM is going to go 190, 205, 192, 210, 200, 198, 212, ect. No one is perfectly smooth.

Does that help?

At least in this particular case, I wonder if scaling of the graphs on the y-axis is also an issue as HR and cadence visually appear more smooth.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [J_R] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you are correct on the HR and cadence.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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So what does this Wahoo beta software update really do for anybody? It only helps out those people who 1) have a Wahoo 2) have a crank PM that they can use on their trainer bike 3) don't use TR or PerfPro - seems like that is a pretty small group of people. What about those people who don't have a crank based PM and/or expected the Wahoo to produce watts that were within an acceptable margin of error compared to other PM's? OK, so supposedly less drift and better spin down..............
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
So what does this Wahoo beta software update really do for anybody? It only helps out those people who 1) have a Wahoo 2) have a crank PM that they can use on their trainer bike 3) don't use TR or PerfPro - seems like that is a pretty small group of people. What about those people who don't have a crank based PM and/or expected the Wahoo to produce watts that were within an acceptable margin of error compared to other PM's? OK, so supposedly less drift and better spin down..............

If you're on iOS with TR you'd be able to use their solution without having an extra ANT+ dongle.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
So what does this Wahoo beta software update really do for anybody? It only helps out those people who 1) have a Wahoo 2) have a crank PM that they can use on their trainer bike 3) don't use TR or PerfPro - seems like that is a pretty small group of people. What about those people who don't have a crank based PM and/or expected the Wahoo to produce watts that were within an acceptable margin of error compared to other PM's? OK, so supposedly less drift and better spin down..............


The new firmware now has temperature compensation and better spin-down calculations, everyone will benefit from these changes. Lots of people will also love being able to bridge there ANT+ based cadence sensors via Bluetooth.

Linking 3rd party power meters is not to correct the error in the KICKR, its to match the power readings. All power meters (including KICKR) have a margin of error and read power from different points in the system so we are simply offsetting the readings so they match. Unfortunately this isn't available for hub based power meters.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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WahooMurray wrote:

The new firmware now has temperature compensation and better spin-down calculations, everyone will benefit from these changes.

Thanks for the update. I applied the firmware this afternoon before my workout.

Just a question regarding the spin down calculations. If one is using TR or PP for the workout with the power meter in control is it necessary to do a spin down? I stopped since power meter control and everything seems to track okay without a spin down. The Kickr resistance adjusts pretty well based on the power meter.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like the password is "publicbeta", not "public beta" (no space).
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
WahooMurray wrote:


The new firmware now has temperature compensation and better spin-down calculations, everyone will benefit from these changes.


Thanks for the update. I applied the firmware this afternoon before my workout.

Just a question regarding the spin down calculations. If one is using TR or PP for the workout with the power meter in control is it necessary to do a spin down? I stopped since power meter control and everything seems to track okay without a spin down. The Kickr resistance adjusts pretty well based on the power meter.


You wouldn't need to do a spin down on the KICKR but you should follow the manufactures instructions for calibration on your power meter, you may need to do a manual zero depending on the brand you have.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
So what does this Wahoo beta software update really do for anybody? ... OK, so supposedly less drift and better spin down..............

What else would you want it to provide? Obviously the improvement is yet to be demonstrated, but this is exactly what people on this thread have been asking for.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [agg] [ In reply to ]
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agg wrote:
Looks like the password is "publicbeta", not "public beta" (no space).

Thanks for that, I've edited the original post.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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WahooMurray wrote:

Linking 3rd party power meters is not to correct the error in the KICKR, its to match the power readings. All power meters (including KICKR) have a margin of error and read power from different points in the system so we are simply offsetting the readings so they match. Unfortunately this isn't available for hub based power meters.

.

Murray,

Just for the record what is Wahoo's current claim in regards to the Kickr's margin of error? If I remember correctly back at the time of introduction, the claim was + or - 2% with the potential to eventually be within .5%. Do you feel that the 2% value is being met?

Thanks for joining the thread.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [ccassidy] [ In reply to ]
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ccassidy wrote:
So what does this Wahoo beta software update really do for anybody? It only helps out those people who 1) have a Wahoo 2) have a crank PM that they can use on their trainer bike 3) don't use TR or PerfPro - seems like that is a pretty small group of people. What about those people who don't have a crank based PM and/or expected the Wahoo to produce watts that were within an acceptable margin of error compared to other PM's? OK, so supposedly less drift and better spin down..............

Well. Some people (myself included) do use KICKR in Simulation mode rather then ERG. While it is very easy for 3rd party apps (at least conceptually) to correct KICKR so it matches external power meter in ERG mode it is very difficult/impractical to implement for Sim mode. In firmware however the latter is just as simple as for ERG mode.

http://veloreality.com
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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Murray,

First of all, thanks for addressing the issues. I'm looking forward to see what effect the new firmware has.

Can I ask you to clarify a few things in the above ? It's not quite specific enough for me to understand fully what you mean.

WahooMurray wrote:
Linking 3rd party power meters is not to correct the error in the KICKR, its to match the power readings. All power meters (including KICKR) have a margin of error and read power from different points in the system so we are simply offsetting the readings so they match.

I had previously understood 'linking 3rd party power meters' to mean that the KICKR used that external PM as the basis of its decision to increase or decrease resistance. For example, if the workout software (e.g. Wahoo Fitness) asks for 200W, then the KICKR adjusts the resistance until the external PM reports 200W load, and *completely ignores* the internal PM. Here there is only one feedback loop, involving the brake and external PM. That's a perfectly valid approach, especially for those who want to use the same PM on the road.

Or does it mean that the internal firmware conducts power measurements using both the internal and external PM, and determines an offset between the two, but still uses the internal PM with the offset applied to get an alternative estimate of applied resistance which better matches the external PM. Here there are two feedback loops - a high bandwidth loop involving the brake and the internal PM, and a low bandwidth loop involving the internal PM and the external PM. This could also work well, and possibly even better if the bandwidth of the internal brake/PM feedback loop is higher than the ANT+ based external one, and the offset is measured sufficiently often to compensate for any temperature related drift (or drift for any other reason).

There's a third explanation, which I suspect (sincerely hope) you're not doing: measuring the offset between the internal PM and the external PM, and adjusted the reported power from the internal PM by the offset amount. That would mean you report a certain power value, even though the resistance isn't being adjusted accordingly - that would be misleading. Anyone with two power meters would uncover that very quickly indeed...

There may be other explanations, but I can't see what they are right now.

WahooMurray wrote:
Unfortunately this isn't available for hub based power meters.

Presumably because said hub-based power meters need to be removed from the bike to fit it on the KICKR! Or am I missing something?

Finally, I'd also like to hear the estimated accuracy with these fixes to the internal PM. I'd love to be able to believe my KICKR's reported power without having to use an external PM.
Last edited by: marting: Apr 8, 15 1:33
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

Your 2nd explanation is about right, we still use the internal power meter to control the KICKR and this needs to be fast and responsive. We simply use the external power meter to adjust this feedback loop. For this reason users should see slightly better performance than software based solutions.


marting wrote:
Or does it mean that the internal firmware conducts power measurements using both the internal and external PM, and determines an offset between the two, but still uses the internal PM with the offset applied to get an alternative estimate of applied resistance which better matches the external PM. Here there are two feedback loops - a high bandwidth loop involving the brake and the internal PM, and a low bandwidth loop involving the internal PM and the external PM. This could also work well, and possibly even better if the bandwidth of the internal brake/PM feedback loop is higher than the ANT+ based external one, and the offset is measured sufficiently often to compensate for any temperature related drift (or drift for any other reason).

marting wrote:
WahooMurray wrote:
Unfortunately this isn't available for hub based power meters.

Presumably because said hub-based power meters need to be removed from the bike to fit it on the KICKR! Or am I missing something?

Correct.

marting wrote:
Finally, I'd also like to hear the estimated accuracy with these fixes to the internal PM. I'd love to be able to believe my KICKR's reported power without having to use an external PM.

Its a really tuff question, yes I can get you the accuracy against our baseline but that doesn't tell you how well does it match your own power meter. For example, if 2 power meters have a +/- 3% accuracy thats unto 6% assuming they used the same baseline and thats not even taking into account the different locations power is collected. A pedal based power meter should always report a higher power compared to a hub based because of the loss in the chain etc. Just ask Ray how hard it is to compare 2 different power meters.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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WahooMurray wrote:
marting wrote:
Finally, I'd also like to hear the estimated accuracy with these fixes to the internal PM. I'd love to be able to believe my KICKR's reported power without having to use an external PM.


Its a really tuff question, yes I can get you the accuracy against our baseline but that doesn't tell you how well does it match your own power meter. For example, if 2 power meters have a +/- 3% accuracy thats unto 6% assuming they used the same baseline and thats not even taking into account the different locations power is collected. A pedal based power meter should always report a higher power compared to a hub based because of the loss in the chain etc. Just ask Ray how hard it is to compare 2 different power meters.

Thanks Murray, understood. There's no way you can know either (a) where in the spectrum my Vectors sit, or (b) what my drivetrain losses are. So an estimate of the absolute accuracy of the KICKR's internal measurement as delivered to the cassette is about as good as you'll be able to do. If you're able to repeatedly deliver +/-2% across a specified range of operating conditions (e.g. ambient temperatures appropriate for commercial, indoor electronics), that's comparable with others' claims, and would be "trustworthy" enough for me, and I suspect for many others too.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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WahooMurray wrote:

You wouldn't need to do a spin down on the KICKR but you should follow the manufactures instructions for calibration on your power meter, you may need to do a manual zero depending on the brand you have.

Thanks
Certainly something I need to get into a new habit with using the training applications. I've been so accustomed to doing it with the Garmin Edge for so many years that I forgot to do it last night in the software. Your post reminded me that I forgot because I am now comfortable not using the Garmin to record the power meter and just use the application data. :-)

I appreciate you revealing that your team spent a good number of hours testing and tweaking. I hope you all (including TR and PP) will refine as things come up.
For me, at this moment and for the past weeks, my training is going in the right direction.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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WahooMurray wrote:
For example, if 2 power meters have a +/- 3% accuracy thats unto 6% assuming they used the same baseline and thats not even taking into account the different locations power is collected. .

Murray

Since you mention +/- 3% here and didn't get a chance to answer my more specific earlier question, am I to take it that Wahoo is now aiming at the +/- 3% value? It's interesting that the vast majority of reports of Kickrs that are "off" are showing power a good bit higher than the external power meters on the bikes of the reportees. I'd think that a pedal or crank based power meters would read a bit higher than the Kickr due to drive train losses.

Thanks again for participating in this thread.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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My KICKR starts out 10-15 watts higher than my P2M and then as it warms up settles in to 20-25 watts higher as it warms up. I'd prefer to use a training bike without a PM attached semi-permanently to the KICKR, so I'm really hoping that the new firmware helps with the offset and drift. If not, I'd really like a way just to be able to increase the resistance of the KICKR by 20W and know that it's going to read low for the first 15 minutes of my warmup.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [bloodninja] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Murray - Did few hrs on trailen tonight, it's much improved or more accurate compared to my PM. I rode in erg and SIM mode (2%). Was within 2% or better for Z 5/6 intervals and also on longer Z2/3 efforts.........not so close on recover power.

will play some more this week - didn't bother with PM control option

thanks
Last edited by: gormleyflyer: Apr 8, 15 20:39
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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Just tested my Kickr with the publicbeta firmware. The kickr took about 4-5 mins to start accurately applying the target resistance that TrainerRoad program was asking for. After that it was extremely accurate until an acceleration in cadence (rpm) which it took approx 7-10 seconds to stabilize. Where the real problem arose was 30sec on 30sec off intervals. These intervals had rpm accelerations from 100rpm to 130 rpm.The kickr would initially apply enough resistance to see the power overshoot the target power and then after peaking within 5 or seconds the resistance would gradually decrease to about 20 below the target power all while the cadence remained between 130-135rpm.
Tomorrow I will try a 3x10min interval session and see how that works.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Bonedog] [ In reply to ]
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Power is derived from a combination of cadence speed and pedal force.
The erg unit will always be guessing everytime there is a change in rpm
If to increase or decrease the resistance.

Making this guessing as immediate as possible is tricky
Whilst being able to provide smooth resistance at the same time.
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