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Venge vs S5

 

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seebritri

May 22, 13 23:29

Post #26 of 69 (2668 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [rcmioga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Answer: which one fits you?
Real answer: Venge. S5 is UGLY.

Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach


shamerli

May 23, 13 0:27

Post #27 of 69 (2648 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [seebritri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just my n=1 experience...

I have the S-Works Venge at size 54, (Matt-black with red colour) and SRAM Red group (+quarq PM) and ZIPP-202 wheelset with 25mm GP4000s tires at 85/90PSI. In my opinion, this combo looks just perfect... The decals on everything matches up nicely and it looks like a nice piece of bike-art that asks to be taken out.

I have ridden the bike for long-rides (+5hrs), done climbs on it (up to 17%) and rode it through typical Belgian crap weather on pothole-infested roads. I have yet to feel uncomfortable or feel the road sting me.

The 25mm tires make this bike the most comfortable road-bike I've had or have ever ridden (previous Giant TcR Carbon). The frame stiffness means you can hammer it on the straights, into bends and on the descends. Surely, it is not as light as the tarmac of other bikes,but I have not yet found the weight over the tarmac to play a major drawback. Then again, I haven't done any extensive climbing on it as well. Any time lost here, I'll probably can make up going downhill that much faster.

My advice is similar to others: It you can test, try both. then take into account what / where you will be using it much. If comfort is a issue for you, go with the 25mm tires. They help even Belgian cobblestone and pothole infested roads on a Venge feel smooth and that means something...

GReetz,

S.

Twitter Less, Tri Harder


jackmott

May 23, 13 6:08

Post #28 of 69 (2594 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [cerebis] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

well, the UCI has a weight limit, which most of these bikes can get well under quite easily. Even a large S5 can, with ultegra!

So yeah, generally frame weight is a total non issue. If you chose to abide by UCI weight limits, its *really* a non issue.



cerebis wrote:
I see a lot of MCippolini RB1000s at the pointy end of mountain stages and that is not a light frame.


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


Turd Ferguson

May 23, 13 6:11

Post #29 of 69 (2593 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

trail wrote:
You want to checkout Velonews' Aero Revisited article. The S5 beat the Venge by 5W @ 30MPH, and the Venge didn't beat the S5 in any way I consider noteworthy.

The Litespeed won the overall, but only because their "scientific weighting" scheme does not use Slowtwitch-approved relative weights, e.g. where attaching a sack of anvils to your top-tube is preferable to losing 0.0001CdA, and where stiffness is only important for "victory celebration" and not your bottom bracket.

Consider Noteworthy? You don't consider weight noteworthy? Per the article the Venge was the lightest bike they tested while the S5 was the heaviest.

And if Torstional stiffness is just a "victory celebration" than why is it so important to so many different manufactuers?

elburrito99 wrote:
As Velo News put it: "It is very nearly as good as the best here and is still faster than any traditionally shaped frame, making it the undisputable winner for your wallet."

Pretty sure that somebody planning on putting Super Record EPS (like the OP) on a bike isn't really worried about cost too much
_________________________________________________
When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey



jackmott

May 23, 13 6:57

Post #30 of 69 (2561 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [Turd Ferguson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Turd Ferguson wrote:
Consider Noteworthy? You don't consider weight noteworthy? Per the article the Venge was the lightest bike they tested while the S5 was the heaviest.

No, given the handful of grams difference, it is not noteworthy.

Quote:

And if Torstional stiffness is just a "victory celebration" than why is it so important to so many different manufactuers?

because it is really really hard to offer any meaningful differentiation with a bike. its a fucking bike. even the S5 aero features hardly matter unless you are doing an Eddy M TT at a competitive level, and that stuff takes big engineering brains and money to pull off.

so, you have marketing go on about stiffness and weight, even though you know full well all of the good bikes among your competition are WAY beyond stiff enough to do anything anyone on this planet will throw at it, and that the weight difference are too small to matter in any context other than a hill climb TT =)


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

May 23, 13 7:16

Post #31 of 69 (2538 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).
Styrrell


jackmott

May 23, 13 7:18

Post #32 of 69 (2533 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I didn't pick it!

styrrell wrote:
I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly
heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


rroof

May 23, 13 7:27

Post #33 of 69 (2521 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [Joe Santos] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow - that was a great read, thanks!
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD


styrrell

May 23, 13 7:36

Post #34 of 69 (2507 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So what would've you picked ;-)
Styrrell


jackmott

May 23, 13 7:38

Post #35 of 69 (2504 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The white one probably. But the 2012 VWD was pretty darn cheap round christmas time with the bro deal. So hard to say. I did like the paint on that one the best!


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


bobby11

May 23, 13 7:45

Post #36 of 69 (2490 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [cidewar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

A lot of people say the Venge is to "harsh" - but ultimately I've been able to do 3 to 3.5 hour rides on it without major issues... I will say when comparing the two I found the S5 way more comfortable climbing but the front end on the Venge seem stiffer to me and definitely was more comfortable (and faster for me) descending.

If you want a road racing and crit bike - I would get the Venge... but if you want a bike you can ride through the mountains all day long I'd go for the S5... (although to be honest for an all day riding bike I'd get an R3 or an R5...).


Wow. I have both bikes (currently) and ride them interchangeably and I would assess them EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. That's not to say you're wrong and I'm right. That's probably to say that only so much can be attributed to the frame and the rest comes down to how long your stem is, are you slammed or upright, what wheels/tires/tubes, etc. Though my fit parameters are as close as I can make them between the two bikes, there are some small differences and, to achieve the similarity in fit, I have a longer stem on one than the other, different stem angle, etc. I'm also running Firecrest 404 clinchers on one and Enve 6.7s on the other. I love both bikes, but I do agree with your final statement as regards the all day ride. That's on my R5.


Tom A.

May 23, 13 7:47

Post #37 of 69 (2489 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

styrrell wrote:
I just like the comedy of an avowed anti weight weenie arguing the point when he rides a S5 VWD. If only Cervelo offered that bike in a slightly heavier, greatly lower cost version, Oh wait ;-).

Which is why have the "base model" :-P

Besides, I don't think Jack and I are so much "anti-weight-weenie" as we are "pro-what-really-matters-for-going-faster". Weight-weenism is rampant because people like easy things to measure...


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


jackmott

May 23, 13 7:49

Post #38 of 69 (2482 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Saves me a lot of anxiety when picking bikes at least =)

I only have to consider wind tunnel, paint, and price!


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

May 23, 13 7:52

Post #39 of 69 (2481 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Take cost out of the picture and you wouldn't want a S5 VWD? Any way you slice it a lighter frame with the same aero properties will be faster. The cost to benefit ratio can be absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of aeo benefits. I don't doubt the hydraulic magura brake on the rear of a S5 is more aero than a 105 brake but with careful cable routing you're looking at a tiny benefit for $300 or so.
Styrrell


Carl Spackler

May 23, 13 7:53

Post #40 of 69 (2481 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [Joe Santos] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'd put the Boardman slightly ahead of SLR01 in handling department and slightly behind in comfort; we're talking small amounts and rider preference. The SLR is probably the best do-everything bike I've been on, while the SL4 handles a little better but comes with a rougher ride. IMO the Boardman falls between the two, but the added advantage of aero. It really does feel lighter than it is when climbing and I was scratching my head how that could be. Your comments make sense as to why. From a crit to fondo, the AiR would be my choice.

Why are so many Specialized riders on an SL4 instead of Venge? That's tough to answer. Some people think it's too harsh a ride, others say it's fine. The SL4's ride is already "racey" so the inconsistent peer reviews and comments of it being even harsher might scare people off. The Tarmac is a fantastic bike and hard to go wrong with, which is why I chose it instead of the Venge. A lot of crit guys are riding it but not so many road racers, for obvious reasons.

__________________________________________________


bobby11

May 23, 13 8:15

Post #41 of 69 (2460 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Come ride the roads I ride. You will. I know wheels, tires and pressures all weigh in enormously, but I can put the same wheels, tires and pressures on two bikes and go ride my Carolina pave and cross the RR tracks a few dozen times and all and ... well, I know the difference.


rruff

May 23, 13 8:40

Post #42 of 69 (2441 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Every time I go for a ride the same bike feels different. If I have a hangover, my bike is a rough riding, poor handling, slow POS. On better days I glide on clouds and fly down the switchbacks...





jackmott

May 23, 13 8:41

Post #43 of 69 (2439 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [rruff] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mine just feels like a bike. I only notice if it starts making noise. I hate noise!

I do notice that TT bikes are fast though. Yay TT bikes!

rruff wrote:
Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Every time I go for a ride the same bike feels different. If I have a hangover, my bike is a rough riding, poor handling, slow POS. On better days I glide on clouds and fly down the switchbacks...




Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

May 23, 13 8:46

Post #44 of 69 (2428 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is one of the most interesting articles about frame stiffness I've seen (also some pics of some beautiful frames). It even has some anecdata in it.
Styrrell


rroof

May 23, 13 8:50

Post #45 of 69 (2425 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bobby11 wrote:
Every now and then I try to notice comfort and stiffness differences between bikes but I still can't.

Come ride the roads I ride. You will. I know wheels, tires and pressures all weigh in enormously, but I can put the same wheels, tires and pressures on two bikes and go ride my Carolina pave and cross the RR tracks a few dozen times and all and ... well, I know the difference.

I'm with 'ya Bob. I've got the luxury of a large stable of bikes as well (9!) and they definitely all ride/feel different and I "like" each one for different reasons. Such is the life of a bike racer. I actually use a different bike for a tight, technical crit vs. an more open crit for example. TT bike though, just one (P5). Couple of cross bikes, etc.

Stiffness pretty hard to discern unless very obvious (like my BMC TMR01 vs. a Ti bike - huge difference). Actually the BMC is the first bike I've ever owned that I feel is TOO stiff. My foray into aero road bikes (2003 Soloist Carbon) was definitely NOT a great crit bike and on the other end though.
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD


Derf

May 23, 13 8:51

Post #46 of 69 (2425 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man, I can't even tell speed differences. If anything my tt bike "feels" slower given the significantly less drag I feel riding it.

I thought I was the most fit agnostic person around, but maybe I'm wrong! I'm pretty happy on any bike (and most any road saddle) as long as my touchpoints are set.

23's vs 25's I can feel, though. Love me some biggie tires. Can't tell a wide rim from a narrow one, though. (On the same tire)


Tom A.

May 23, 13 8:56

Post #47 of 69 (2412 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

styrrell wrote:
Take cost out of the picture and you wouldn't want a S5 VWD?

There you go moving the goal posts again. Of course, if cost was not an issue (i.e. let's say they cost the same) why wouldn't one get the lighter model? Even though the mass difference we're talking about here is a MUCH lower factor in overall performance, it's still a factor.

However, you asked Jack why he went for the lighter model even though there is a less expensive model that gives the same aero performance. I did that analysis and made the logical choice of getting the less expensive model despite it being slightly higher mass.


styrrell wrote:
Any way you slice it a lighter frame with the same aero properties will be faster.


Of course.

styrrell wrote:
The cost to benefit ratio can be absurd, but the same can be said for a lot of aeo benefits.


Exactly. But the opposite can be said many times as well. For example, you need to buy a bike frame anyway, so you might as well get the one that actually makes you faster (if going faster is a priority, that is). There usually isn't much, if any, incremental cost to do so.


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


jackmott

May 23, 13 8:57

Post #48 of 69 (2405 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm searching and searching through this thread but don't see the article you are referring to

styrrell wrote:
This is one of the most interesting articles about frame stiffness I've seen (also some pics of some beautiful frames). It even has some anecdata in it.


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

May 23, 13 9:01

Post #49 of 69 (2400 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Never moved the goal posts at all, And I wouldn;t consider the costs of a S5 vs a VWD design incremental, nor would I consider the cost of a Magura rear brake over a 105 bike given the performance benefits but both seem to sell pretty well.
Styrrell


jackmott

May 23, 13 9:07

Post #50 of 69 (2387 views)
Re: Venge vs S5 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

2012 models around christmas were pretty incremental cost wise.

Magura brakes for aero alone are a lot of $ per watts saved, but they are also a braking performance improvement, which might be a big deal for people who ride in the rain a lot, or on carbon braking surfaces a lot.

I don't do that, which is why I don't have maguras!

styrrell wrote:
Never moved the goal posts at all, And I wouldn;t consider the costs of a S5 vs a VWD design incremental, nor would I consider the cost of a Magura rear brake over a 105 bike given the performance benefits but both seem to sell pretty well.


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

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