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The number one problem with most run training

 

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Paulo Sousa

Aug 2, 12 9:36

Post #101 of 115 (1628 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I went through this thread and there's a lot of talk about "miles", about 32mi/week or 40mi/week or 50mi/week.

Just as a reminder, because I sure hope that everyone knows this, measuring total distance to quantify training and comparing between athletes is only helpful for athletes that are at the same level. So elite athletes can talk about how they do 100mi/week or 120mi/week, maybe HS runners can talk about doing 60-70mi/week, because these groups of athletes are very matched in their training speed and 60mi/week represents essentially the same training load for a particular group of athletes.

When talking about age-group triathletes, training paces vary quite substantially. A top age-grouper might run most of his miles at 7min/mi pace, a MOP ag might run at 9min/mi and a BOP older age-grouper might run 10-12min/mi pace. If we're talking about the MOP ag, then 50mi/week is 7.5 hours of running. That's a lot of running. It's a lot of running not only from the point of view of the time-constrained age-grouper, but also a lot of running from a training load point of view.

Instead of looking at miles, it's a lot more "productive" to look at training time. For most age-groupers, training time on the run should be around 30-35% of total training (yes, this can vary). So for an age-grouper training 12 hours/week, that's roughly 4 hours of run training.

With this starting point, the job of the coach/self-coached athlete is to work on a training progression that builds towards maximizing training load in an event-specific way.
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sentania

Aug 2, 12 9:38

Post #102 of 115 (1626 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Are you ever going to finish that blog post series?

/slacker



Team RACC | Emery's Third Coast Tri Shop | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo


Paulo Sousa

Aug 2, 12 9:39

Post #103 of 115 (1624 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I took it as the average triathlete should follow a plan like the one you posted, which I believe (i'm not a level anything coach of course) would lead to injury i.e. no "down" weeks and the increase appearing to me to be steep.


The highest injury risk for runners is inconsistency. You would be better off running xx miles over 6 days then running that same amount over 3. Running over 6 also allows you to add more time faster to increase your workload faster then running 3 days. ie if you were running 30min a day x 6 days you could add 5 min per run to get a 30min increase with little increase in the training stress. Now if you were running 3x a week for 60 min per run and added 10min per run your training stress would most likely be higher even though the increases and total duration are the same.

You have to look at 4 factors when trying to figure it all out. Frequency, duration, intensity, volume. You can keep volume the same but manipulate just intensity and get two weeks that have very different training stresses. Or you can have two weeks of the same volume but have different duration's or vice versa.

A good example of this is the post where the person stated that the progression show didn't account for down weeks or days off and would surely lead to injury. But if you manipulate the variables correctly you can see where this isn't the case.

In fact a 45mile week could be less stressful then a 35 mile week depending upon how you structure the week. Which means you could go from say 32, 33, 34, 36, 35 to 45 mpw and have those last two weeks be roughly equal in training stress.

Once you understand how these variables all interact with each other, manipulating your training load to meet your goals becomes much easier.

Very good post, Brian!
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Tribato

Aug 2, 12 10:15

Post #104 of 115 (1587 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [Paulo Sousa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I went through this thread and there's a lot of talk about "miles", about 32mi/week or 40mi/week or 50mi/week.

Just as a reminder, because I sure hope that everyone knows this, measuring total distance to quantify training and comparing between athletes is only helpful for athletes that are at the same level. So elite athletes can talk about how they do 100mi/week or 120mi/week, maybe HS runners can talk about doing 60-70mi/week, because these groups of athletes are very matched in their training speed and 60mi/week represents essentially the same training load for a particular group of athletes.

When talking about age-group triathletes, training paces vary quite substantially. A top age-grouper might run most of his miles at 7min/mi pace, a MOP ag might run at 9min/mi and a BOP older age-grouper might run 10-12min/mi pace. If we're talking about the MOP ag, then 50mi/week is 7.5 hours of running. That's a lot of running. It's a lot of running not only from the point of view of the time-constrained age-grouper, but also a lot of running from a training load point of view.

Instead of looking at miles, it's a lot more "productive" to look at training time. For most age-groupers, training time on the run should be around 30-35% of total training (yes, this can vary). So for an age-grouper training 12 hours/week, that's roughly 4 hours of run training.

With this starting point, the job of the coach/self-coached athlete is to work on a training progression that builds towards maximizing training load in an event-specific way.


you know for all of the people that crack on you (and you know there are many) AND for all of the smarta$$ coach responses you've posted in the past (yah i recall when that was your username) all of your critics should check out this post. it is well thought out, informative and quite helpful. you have a tremendous wealth of knowledge. kudos for not always being a smartass and posting something that would behoove the majority of this forum to learn and/or remember.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Michael in Fresno
"Do you spend time with your family? Good. Because a man that doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man" V. Corleone


sciguy

Aug 2, 12 10:31

Post #105 of 115 (1566 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [Tribato] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tribato wrote:
I went through this thread and there's a lot of talk about "miles", about 32mi/week or 40mi/week or 50mi/week.

Just as a reminder, because I sure hope that everyone knows this, measuring total distance to quantify training and comparing between athletes is only helpful for athletes that are at the same level. So elite athletes can talk about how they do 100mi/week or 120mi/week, maybe HS runners can talk about doing 60-70mi/week, because these groups of athletes are very matched in their training speed and 60mi/week represents essentially the same training load for a particular group of athletes.

When talking about age-group triathletes, training paces vary quite substantially. A top age-grouper might run most of his miles at 7min/mi pace, a MOP ag might run at 9min/mi and a BOP older age-grouper might run 10-12min/mi pace. If we're talking about the MOP ag, then 50mi/week is 7.5 hours of running. That's a lot of running. It's a lot of running not only from the point of view of the time-constrained age-grouper, but also a lot of running from a training load point of view.

Instead of looking at miles, it's a lot more "productive" to look at training time. For most age-groupers, training time on the run should be around 30-35% of total training (yes, this can vary). So for an age-grouper training 12 hours/week, that's roughly 4 hours of run training.

With this starting point, the job of the coach/self-coached athlete is to work on a training progression that builds towards maximizing training load in an event-specific way.


you know for all of the people that crack on you (and you know there are many) AND for all of the smarta$$ coach responses you've posted in the past (yah i recall when that was your username) all of your critics should check out this post. it is well thought out, informative and quite helpful. you have a tremendous wealth of knowledge. kudos for not always being a smartass and posting something that would behoove the majority of this forum to learn and/or remember.

X 2 This was absolutely the most useful and clearly articulated post I've ever seen from Paulo. Thank you for your insight.

Hugh
Genetics load the gun, lifesyle pulls the trigger.


h2ofun

Aug 2, 12 11:04

Post #106 of 115 (1552 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [Tribato] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tribato wrote:
I went through this thread and there's a lot of talk about "miles", about 32mi/week or 40mi/week or 50mi/week.

Just as a reminder, because I sure hope that everyone knows this, measuring total distance to quantify training and comparing between athletes is only helpful for athletes that are at the same level. So elite athletes can talk about how they do 100mi/week or 120mi/week, maybe HS runners can talk about doing 60-70mi/week, because these groups of athletes are very matched in their training speed and 60mi/week represents essentially the same training load for a particular group of athletes.

When talking about age-group triathletes, training paces vary quite substantially. A top age-grouper might run most of his miles at 7min/mi pace, a MOP ag might run at 9min/mi and a BOP older age-grouper might run 10-12min/mi pace. If we're talking about the MOP ag, then 50mi/week is 7.5 hours of running. That's a lot of running. It's a lot of running not only from the point of view of the time-constrained age-grouper, but also a lot of running from a training load point of view.

Instead of looking at miles, it's a lot more "productive" to look at training time. For most age-groupers, training time on the run should be around 30-35% of total training (yes, this can vary). So for an age-grouper training 12 hours/week, that's roughly 4 hours of run training.

With this starting point, the job of the coach/self-coached athlete is to work on a training progression that builds towards maximizing training load in an event-specific way.


you know for all of the people that crack on you (and you know there are many) AND for all of the smarta$$ coach responses you've posted in the past (yah i recall when that was your username) all of your critics should check out this post. it is well thought out, informative and quite helpful. you have a tremendous wealth of knowledge. kudos for not always being a smartass and posting something that would behoove the majority of this forum to learn and/or remember.

Anyone who knows Paulo understands he is one smart dude.

.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


BarryP

Aug 2, 12 11:23

Post #107 of 115 (1541 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [Paulo Sousa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've certainly made the same mistake in the past. Coaching high school girls made me realize male college-centric training loads were not appropriate for most runners.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


Printer86

Aug 2, 12 12:04

Post #108 of 115 (1503 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I was going to respond, but Paulo and Brian said it better than me. Now, if everyone would just run 5-6 days a week, we can end this thread.
___________________________________________

I will be back for the 2014 Boston Marathon just to say FU to the bad guys.

(This post was edited by Printer86 on Aug 2, 12 12:11)


lightheir

Aug 2, 12 13:38

Post #109 of 115 (1454 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [Printer86] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm onboard with Paolo's post, but honestly it's not that an impressive conclusion. Of COURSE you're going to have vastly different standards for BOP vs FOP or elite athletes. That's pretty much what it comes down to.

If you want to get better at running as a triathlete, for most of us AGers, running more is the first and most important step. And even with different paces, the overall times for the middle of the range AGer training isn't that huge. For 30 miles a week run, 1min/mile difference of average pace will give the slower runner an extra 30 minutes of running per week. That's not likely going to break you at the 10-12hr or more training volume range.

And as most folks here know, the ability to average a full min/mile difference in the AG category for weekly training is a huge gap - like the difference between dead MOP and very FOP. Unless you're intentionally comparing groups that are so far apart in ability that it's ludicrous, the overall time differential in training even at 40mpw isn't that big. Heck, in my last Oly, where I ran a 6:50/mi, that was good enough for a AG finish that was only in the front 20%. Had I run 1 entire min/mile faster, I would have won the AG group run by a fair margin. I don't think you can even consider comparing runners who are more than 1min/mile apart, as it's obviously so different that even a nonathlete would know that you need different standards for training volume and speed.


(This post was edited by lightheir on Aug 2, 12 13:38)


sentania

Aug 3, 12 5:48

Post #110 of 115 (1377 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

When you look at the volume of "How do I get faster threads?" on slowtwitch and some of the numb nutz answers that are posted in response it's pretty obvious that very few people approach it in the manner Brian and Paulo suggest. So while it may not be an "impressive" conclusion, it obviously isn't the "typical" conclusion.







Team RACC | Emery's Third Coast Tri Shop | scottbowe.com

"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo


masterslacker

Aug 3, 12 6:19

Post #111 of 115 (1365 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BarryP wrote:
I've certainly made the same mistake in the past. Coaching high school girls made me realize male college-centric training loads were not appropriate for most runners.

I think background comes into play as well. For example, an "older" runner who's been running all his life can handle different types of training loads than someone the same age/sex who was a cyclist all his life and just started running 5 years ago. Another factor is "talent", I think. Some people are just gifted at running so they can handle certain workouts while another person would get injured.

But those are very specific things that you can worry after you get the consistency into the run training which I agree like everyone else here is one of most important things.


h2ofun

Aug 3, 12 7:57

Post #112 of 115 (1317 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

lightheir wrote:
I'm onboard with Paolo's post, but honestly it's not that an impressive conclusion. Of COURSE you're going to have vastly different standards for BOP vs FOP or elite athletes. That's pretty much what it comes down to.

If you want to get better at running as a triathlete, for most of us AGers, running more is the first and most important step. And even with different paces, the overall times for the middle of the range AGer training isn't that huge. For 30 miles a week run, 1min/mile difference of average pace will give the slower runner an extra 30 minutes of running per week. That's not likely going to break you at the 10-12hr or more training volume range.

And as most folks here know, the ability to average a full min/mile difference in the AG category for weekly training is a huge gap - like the difference between dead MOP and very FOP. Unless you're intentionally comparing groups that are so far apart in ability that it's ludicrous, the overall time differential in training even at 40mpw isn't that big. Heck, in my last Oly, where I ran a 6:50/mi, that was good enough for a AG finish that was only in the front 20%. Had I run 1 entire min/mile faster, I would have won the AG group run by a fair margin. I don't think you can even consider comparing runners who are more than 1min/mile apart, as it's obviously so different that even a nonathlete would know that you need different standards for training volume and speed.

For the vast majority of folks, the first thing to do in order to get faster running is to lose weight!!!

I also do not believe the second step is to run more only. My experience is one needs to build the lungs up, and a good balance of cross training with a good amount of swimming and biking will keep most folks healthy.

And the third step is 6 days a week, 12 months a year, for a few years.

Anything less than the above means the person really is only looking for a quick solution, which does not work for most folks.

.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


BarryP

Aug 8, 12 11:29

Post #113 of 115 (1164 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [sentania] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


Quote:
When you look at the volume of "How do I get faster threads?" on slowtwitch and some of the numb nutz answers that are posted in response it's pretty obvious that very few people approach it in the manner Brian and Paulo suggest. So while it may not be an "impressive" conclusion, it obviously isn't the "typical" conclusion.



I've geared a lot of my posts with this in mind, and I will freely admit that a lot of things that seem obvious to verans came as a result of some "ahah" moments that many of us have had.

A big mistake I've seen a lot (and made myself) is to think, "This elite runner runs 100 miles a week with a 20 mile long run, an 8 mile tempo run, 8,000 meters of interval work, and a speed session of 200s, so I'm going to do th esame thing." Clearly only an elite can handle this training load, so what ends up happening is that the MOPer ends up doing the same sessions, but on a quarter of the mileage, which just is no tan effective approach. And even I have caught myself thinking, "if I just keep pounding out these intervals, I'll eventually get to the point where I can actually handle them."



-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


desert dude

Aug 8, 12 13:24

Post #114 of 115 (1090 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
And even I have caught myself thinking, "if I just keep pounding out these intervals, I'll eventually get to the point where I can actually handle them."

I can remember catching you doing this as well ;-)

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3

(This post was edited by desert dude on Aug 8, 12 13:25)


kvn371

Aug 10, 12 15:35

Post #115 of 115 (991 views)
Re: The number one problem with most run training [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sorry if anyone hoped this thread would peter out, but I'm trying to build run volume with the hopes of running a fast (for me) Turkey Trot and get my run training amped up. It was sacrificed for swim and bike this year, and it showed in my run times. I've got the base to safely start 100 runs in 100 days, albeit at a lower distance per run.

So, my question for all of you running guru's... can you back down to say 5 runs a week and still reap the benefits of all of the consistent training you just applied? Is the consistency more for improvement or maintenance (to stay at the same level)?

I know this thread is about consistency, so try not to flame me for this question. :-)
------------------------
If you never did, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good.
- Dr. Seuss

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