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Is it better to train on your road bike?
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jaretj
Jul 18, 12 9:08
Post #26 of 44
(1115 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [kdw]
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kdw wrote:
"The saddest thing is watching the guy who brought the tri-bike to the group ride try to get out of the saddle on a climb."
I think this may be an individual thing as I don't have any trouble climbing on my tri bike.
I'm the same way
B.McMaster
Jul 18, 12 9:24
Post #27 of 44
(1103 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [JoeO]
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JoeO wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
For me, I think the better question is: Once you own and ride your tri-bike, why would you even consider the road bike?
I keep my road bike around in case of tragic tri-bike emergency. Otherwise, it's tri-bike all the way.
"Because tor riding in a group, a tri bike sucks." They seem to work fine for the groups that pass me in races - I just wish the official would catch them every-so-often.
"And for climbing, a tri bike sucks."
- Mine doesn't.
JoeO
Jul 18, 12 9:38
Post #28 of 44
(1089 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [B.McMaster]
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I'm speaking comparatively. I can come out of the saddle to climb pretty effectively on my tri bike too. Doesn't mean I'd ever prefer it over a road bike. But if you've got a seriously un-aggressive aero position on your tri bike or you just prefer to be hunched over when climbing, then you've got to go with what works..
Murphy'sLaw
Jul 18, 12 9:42
Post #29 of 44
(1081 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [jaretj]
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jaretj wrote:
kdw wrote:
"The saddest thing is watching the guy who brought the tri-bike to the group ride try to get out of the saddle on a climb."
I think this may be an individual thing as I don't have any trouble climbing on my tri bike.
I'm the same way
Ditto.
ALL my best hillclimb TT times, and Strava KOM's are on my P4.
Which is set up about as steep as a tri bike gets.
My "best" KOM is a 1/2m hill at 15% grade.
The 2 guys right behind me are a young, newly minted U23 state champ and Cat2, and a young, strong Cat3.
I ride w roadies occasionally on group rides, on my tri bike.
I hang w them on the flats and climbs (ok, sometimes I get gapped), but I drop them on descents - even technical ones.
Too bad tri bikes can't climb, handle, or descend...
float
,
hammer
, and
jog
Ultra-tri-guy
Jul 18, 12 9:52
Post #30 of 44
(1066 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Rappstar]
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Rappstar wrote:
http://iamspecialized.com/triathlon/rider/jordan-rapp/752/#/blog
---
I find it very interesting that ST's own bike guru and star Iron-dude posts a a link to his blog on the subject and nobody has responded to it...They must not be willing to accept that maybe a road bike 'aint such a bad thing to train on.
I have a road bike though,two in fact and a hybrid but no TT bike...Silly me..;-)
Where is jackmott when you need him?
--
(This post was
edited
by Ultra-tri-guy on Jul 18, 12 9:53)
bradl016
Jul 18, 12 10:49
Post #31 of 44
(1046 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [davearm]
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davearm wrote:
Let's unravel the math here a little.
Two identical riders produce 270W on a roadbike and 260W on a tri bike. So the tri positioning has a cost of 3.7% (10/270).
After a year of training on the roadbike, 270W has grown to 289W. Now if we put the same rider on a tri bike, and assuming the losses are the same as they had been originally, we'd expect him to push 278W (289 * (1-.037)).
Meanwhile after a year of training on the tri bike, 260W has grown to 278W.
278W = 278W.
Ergo, no difference in the training effect, assuming both riders increase FTP at the same rate (7% in your example).
Thank you, this solves it for me
---------------------------------
Oklahoma State Cycling Club
Bicycles of Tulsa Racing Team
District Bicycles - Stillwater, USA
B.McMaster
Jul 18, 12 10:58
Post #32 of 44
(1030 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Ultra-tri-guy]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
http://iamspecialized.com/triathlon/rider/jordan-rapp/752/#/blog
---
I find it very interesting that ST's own bike guru and star Iron-dude posts a a link to his blog on the subject and nobody has responded to it...They must not be willing to accept that maybe a road bike 'aint such a bad thing to train on.
I have a road bike though,two in fact and a hybrid but no TT bike...Silly me..;-)
Where is jackmott when you need him?
--
From the article - Whenever you are NOT in your aerobars, you would better off on a road bike.
Now - if you are racing Triathlon - you need to learn to ride in your aerobars all the time. Riding a road bike will not get you there.
Ultra-tri-guy
Jul 18, 12 11:01
Post #33 of 44
(1026 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [B.McMaster]
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B.McMaster wrote:
Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
http://iamspecialized.com/triathlon/rider/jordan-rapp/752/#/blog
---
I find it very interesting that ST's own bike guru and star Iron-dude posts a a link to his blog on the subject and nobody has responded to it...They must not be willing to accept that maybe a road bike 'aint such a bad thing to train on.
I have a road bike though,two in fact and a hybrid but no TT bike...Silly me..;-)
Where is jackmott when you need him?
--
From the article - Whenever you are NOT in your aerobars, you would better off on a road bike.
Now - if you are racing Triathlon - you need to learn to ride in your aerobars all the time. Riding a road bike will not get you there.
----
Have you ever watched a triathlon? Not the pointy end but the rest.....and no I'm not going to get into an argument about this topic as I am quite happy riding the bikes I have.
---
Murphy'sLaw
Jul 18, 12 11:06
Post #34 of 44
(1019 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Ultra-tri-guy]
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I'd posit that the very reason the non-pointy-end of a tri looks like it does - is because they haven't properly trained to be able to maintain a good aero position for the duration of the bike.
Riding a road bike in training ain't gonna fix that.
I think a road bike is a wonderful thing. I really enjoy mine.
But, since this time of year I'm racing Tris, and I only have (or choose to use) so many hours to bike train, I do nearly 100% of them on the tri bike.
Specificity.
float
,
hammer
, and
jog
B.McMaster
Jul 18, 12 11:07
Post #35 of 44
(1014 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Ultra-tri-guy]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
Have you ever watched a triathlon? Not the pointy end but the rest.....and no I'm not going to get into an argument about this topic as I am quite happy riding the bikes I have.
---
I'm "the rest" and I agree that we should all ride the bike we want, we should also use the wetsuit we want (or not use one) and use the shoes we want.
davearm
Jul 18, 12 11:55
Post #36 of 44
(972 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [B.McMaster]
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B.McMaster wrote:
From the article - Whenever you are NOT in your aerobars, you would better off on a road bike.
My takeaway from reading that article is that hip angle is critical. From here, the assumptions that Rapp seems to make are as follows:
1) Hip angle is correct on a tri bike when in the aero position.
2) Hip angle is incorrect on a tri bike when on the basebars.
3) Hip angle is correct on a road bike in all positions.
Assumption #3 in particular strikes me as faulty. The picture he shows of the rider in yellow (Fabian) on the hoods of a roadbike shows a pretty close to 90* elbow bend. I would suspect that most sub-elite riders are not normally positioned so aggressively on their hoods... their arms are going to be much straighter -> torsos more upright -> hips more open. I would further suspect that riding a road bike on the hoods with nearly-straight arms puts you in a position (hip angle) not unlike what you'd be in on a tri bike riding the basebars.
So the upshot is that it's easier to get into the proper hip angle on a road bike. I would surely not feel comfortable assuming that most riders are, in fact, putting themselves in that proper position... instead many will ride more upright than is ideal.
And moreover, on a tri bike you could ride the basebars with bent elbows and achieve the same result as riding a road bike in the proper position, calling into question assumption #2 as well.
B.McMaster
Jul 18, 12 12:12
Post #37 of 44
(955 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [davearm]
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Right - getting back to ML's comment. If you want to get better riding (and racing) a tri-bike in the position it was designed for, ride a tri-bike in the position it was designed for in practice. If every-one racing tri's rode their tri-bike all the time as they should to gain the most advantage, they would be better at it. Now if we all had lots of time to ride, we "may" have some benefit to riding a road bike as well, but given the limited time we all have - we "should" ride our tri-bikes (in AERO position).
All that being said - if any-one reading this is M40-44, please don't practice on your tri-bike, just ride your road bike ALL THE TIME.
Murphy'sLaw
Jul 18, 12 12:18
Post #38 of 44
(945 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [B.McMaster]
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Nah - you want everybody in your AG to ride a recumbent spin bike at the gym for all their training rides.
Then on race day - hilarity ensues.
float
,
hammer
, and
jog
G-man
Jul 18, 12 12:37
Post #39 of 44
(919 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [B.McMaster]
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If every minute we spend on the computer were spent riding either of those bikes we wouldn't have these discussions. I think for the average newer guy triathlete if they had a road bike and rode with the local bike racers hammerfests three times a week they would see far more improvement over the first five years than training on their tribike alone or with a buddy or two. After you get competent on any bike , i am thinking riding your cross bike, mtb, fixed gear,road bike or your TT/tribike are all good and would lead to less strains and overuse injuries than just riding the aero position.
I always advise to look at the long haul view. I have noticed the last twenty years or so have not been too friendly on my neck. I try and get 13 hours a week on some kind of bike and usually settle for 10, I am glad I have all of the above to mix it up on. Riding in a fairly agressive tri/TT position is hard on the neck compared to a cyclocross,mtb or even riding the hoods in a pack. Think of the next 30 or so years of your ortho future. Riding a variety of riding bikes keeps it interesting. I have road, tri,cross fixed, and track friends that i sometimes don't get to see if I don't join them on their turf once in a while . When it is all said and done the, journey to the goal should be as rewarding and as fun as the goal itself. Because you will spend a hundred times more time training for the race than you will be in the race. With less than 1% of triathletes doing it for a living, the rest of us do it for fun.
Rappstar
Jul 18, 12 13:40
Post #40 of 44
(887 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [davearm]
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#3 is actually that your hip angle CAN BE correct on a road bike in all positions, precisely because you can bend your elbows more/less to achieve the desired hip angle. This is theoretically also true on a tribike, but it's harder to do for long periods of time because of the increased load on the front end when riding a steep seat angle, hence the reason that #2 is *generally* true.
Weight distribution plays in an important role in why #2 & #3 are - in general - true. It's much harder to support the majority of your weight muscularly (what's required if you ride on your base bar on your TT bike) than it is skeletally (what's required to ride in aerobars); the reason that it's doable on a road bike is because the slacker seat angle greatly reduces the amount of weight your hands/arms/neck/back are supporting.
The majority of the "adaptation" to riding in aerobars is also a myth with some important caveats. Your neck is the big one. Once you actually know how to handle a bike with aerobars, I don't find it particularly demanding to ride a bike with aerobars *IF YOUR POSITION IS CORRECT.* The idea of "getting used" to a position is, in my opinion and experience, generally quite faulty. I usually go at least two months without riding my tribike at all. It takes about three rides before I'm just as comfortable as I ever was on it with the exception of my neck not getting sore, which takes about a month in total.
However, the neck is not an insignificant issue, and certainly you need to spend "enough" time in the aerobars that your neck is used to holding your head up so you can look down the road. However, if you are doing at least one long ride per week in the aerobars, that's more than enough to achieve this.
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raz
Jul 18, 12 13:53
Post #41 of 44
(868 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Rappstar]
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I'm enjoying the information in this thread. Unlike a lot of riders, I actually started out on a Tri bike (well actually a beach cruiser in my first Tri but let's not go there) and I have had a hard time adjusting to riding a road bike.
I don't race Triathlon much any more, except for sprints and the occasional Oly. A lot of my riding is done with a group so I wanted a road bike. I have nice road bike, have been fitted and re-fitted but I feel like I lack power on the road bike. Part of the problem is that I feel extremely comfortable on my TT bike, I ride it in a fairly aggressive position and the road bike feels "heavy". I have compared my pace on various rides and I am not imagining it, I am slower on the road bike. I don't use power so i don't have that sort of data. I also feel more fatigued after riding the road bike and struggle to keep up with the group. On my Tri bike, I never ride in aero with the group but it still feels more comfortable to sit up on my TT bike than it does on the road bike.
From what I am hearing here, it seems that I should feel more comfortable on the road bike. Does it just require more time or should I go back for another fitting?
OneGoodLeg
Jul 18, 12 16:07
Post #42 of 44
(830 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [bradl016]
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Why do you assume both are gaining the exact same 7% if one is putting out more power to begin with? Seems to me the more you put out/improve, the harder it is to keep increasing at the same rate.
OneGoodLeg
Jul 18, 12 16:12
Post #43 of 44
(828 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Tri-Banter]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
JoeO wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
For me, I think the better question is: Once you own and ride your tri-bike, why would you even consider the road bike?
I keep my road bike around in case of tragic tri-bike emergency. Otherwise, it's tri-bike all the way.
Because tor riding in a group, a tri bike sucks.
What's "riding in a group"? People do this?
And for climbing, a tri bike sucks.
What are you climbing up? Tri-bikes aren't that much worse off. If you have a mountain section, like the Le Tour, agreed. The rest of the hills we call climbing... not so much.
I'd also add lots of traffic and/or starting & stopping... I live on the hilly side of my town, so if I want some flat TT training I have to go out past the opposite side of town, which means I often choose to drive to the other side of town to start my ride, which sucks. Usually if I'll be riding through town quite a bit I prefer my road bike since I'd be sitting up out of aero most of the time on the Tri bike anyway.
JourneyToGoPro
Jul 18, 12 22:13
Post #44 of 44
(757 views)
Re: Is it better to train on your road bike? [Murphy'sLaw]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
jaretj wrote:
kdw wrote:
"The saddest thing is watching the guy who brought the tri-bike to the group ride try to get out of the saddle on a climb."
I think this may be an individual thing as I don't have any trouble climbing on my tri bike.
I'm the same way
Ditto.
ALL my best hillclimb TT times, and Strava KOM's are on my P4.
Which is set up about as steep as a tri bike gets.
My "best" KOM is a 1/2m hill at 15% grade.
The 2 guys right behind me are a young, newly minted U23 state champ and Cat2, and a young, strong Cat3.
I ride w roadies occasionally on group rides, on my tri bike.
I hang w them on the flats and climbs (ok, sometimes I get gapped), but I drop them on descents - even technical ones.
Too bad tri bikes can't climb, handle, or descend...
Seriously. A lot of people don't know what a well setup TT bike can do, even when slammed. At my last race I think the guy on his road bike that I flew past on the descent (it was one climb, one descent) in a tight corner was a bit surprised. Too bad I couldn't hold him off on the run...
And on climbs... the only difference I feel on my TT bike is the extra 2lbs of weight (3lbs if I'm lugging the disc cover too).
-Bryan Journey
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