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Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start
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bufit323
Jun 2, 12 14:29
Post #1 of 20
(887 views)
Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start
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Heatwave Classic in Ridgeland Mississippi is a great mid summer race, usually hot as hell. This year for some reason, they switched from the traditional age group wave starts (used to be three or four waves) to a time trial start. Here is the kicker, the start was based on your bib number which was based on order of registration(exception was that first ten people were seeded from last year's finishing place).
Maybe I am a bad example, but I am a decent swimmer and pretty average otherwise. I started according to my bib number and passed at least 40 people in the swim (that is not an exaggeration) so there were 10 - 15 in front of me. I got onto the bike (where I usually get caught by the good folks) and I rode the whole course getting passed by 3 and passing 2.
I get onto the run and there are a few passing me and I am passing a few. Of course, I can't tell who I should be racing, if a guy passes me with my age group on his calf, that guy could be 1 minute in front of me or 3 minutes behind me.
Given that I was "out front" from the swim, and passed by a net 1 person on the bike, one would think that I performed pretty good, until you look at the results and see that I wasn't in the top 30 for men. I guess some people with a 300 bib number must have been pretty fast, too bad I never saw them on the course when they were kicking my ass.
It sucks to get beat by a few seconds and never even see the guy that beat you. A guy creeped past me at mile 5 and I worked my ass off to keep him close and try to pass at end (he was in my AG). When I look at results now, I don't know if he beat me by 2 minutes or I beat him by 2 minutes (though he did beat me to the line by about 5 seconds).
If organizers are reading this, I love your race, I do it every year. If we are going to have time trial starts, can we at least line up in age groups, or seeded based on estimated finish time? It sucks to get beat by a few seconds and never even see the guy that beat you or even figure out who the hell it was (bib numbers aren't shown in results, another small complaint).
Other than the above, the race was awesome, great facility, well organized, well stocked, well volunteered. The weather was even good this time (not nearly as hot as usual).
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
Terra-Man
Jun 2, 12 15:03
Post #2 of 20
(870 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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It is a wonderful race...great people, good food, and hardware worth keeping...I love it.
Today's race was a true race against the clock. I hear what you're saying, but I do think it is rare that you actually go faster based on those in your immediate vicinity. Memphis in May probably does it best, TT start by age, so then you're at least around those that you're racing. I did see very little pack riding today, and that has been a black eye on this race the past several years.
My guess is that race directors want to encourage early registration, rather than 100 people signing up in the last week, and perhaps the start order is to encourage that.
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bamatriguy
Jun 2, 12 15:27
Post #3 of 20
(853 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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I second terra man...... TT is fine as long as we are near our age group..... It was a great race today minus not closing the Natchez trace parkway..... Someone is going to get hurt out there one day..... 200 plus bikes all in 25 mile area (Spread out) is disaster with cars going both directions..... Close the road before someone gets hurt or dies. Overall great race minus the road closure problem.
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." JOHN 16:33
bufit323
Jun 2, 12 16:03
Post #4 of 20
(834 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [Terra-Man]
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Terra-Man wrote:
Today's race was a true race against the clock. I hear what you're saying, but I do think it is rare that you actually go faster based on those in your immediate vicinity.
I would note two things, it is not really a race against the clock when the guy with bib number 325 got to race the bike by passing a couple hundred people (and then compare his time to me who happened to register early). I know with wave starts, this can still happen, but at least it happens to everyone in the same wave (and competitive group) equally.
Regarding going faster, that is not really my point. My point is that it is a race and I would like to actually race against the guys that beat (or were beaten by) me. Finishing the race and then waiting 15 minutes to see if someone in my age group beat me is not really a race (my opinion only).
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
mccalip
Jun 2, 12 18:35
Post #5 of 20
(782 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Heart of Dixie does the same TT start based on when you register. I see your point about not knowing your position during the race. However, you knew that when you started the race. Bottom line: red line it the entire race and leave nothing on the course. Different race, different strategy.
jhightower
Jun 2, 12 19:19
Post #6 of 20
(766 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bamatriguy]
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Great racing today guys.
E- I would like to see it closed too but I'm not sure they are allowed to do that. Closing that section would make for a big detour.
I see the op's point to the tt start but like Larkin said, you just have to race your best race and let the results fall where they fall.
bufit323
Jun 2, 12 19:53
Post #7 of 20
(756 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [mccalip]
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mccalip wrote:
Bottom line: red line it the entire race and leave nothing on the course.
If a 30 year old male started in 335th and redlined the whole race, and the exact same 30 year old male red lined the exact same course in the exact same fashion but started in 45th, I think that one would beat the other (despite all being equal except starting position). All that has changed is the circumstance, and thus my point, when two people race under different circumstances and then their times are compared, it is not a race.
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
lcreswell
Jun 2, 12 20:21
Post #8 of 20
(746 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Congrats to all for the good racing today.
Busy day at work. Sorry I couldn't race....or even make it there to cheer.
It does seem that TT starts have become popular in these parts. I agree that the Memphis in May version is my favorite, but I'd suggest different color swim caps for the age groups so that you could follow your progress (within your age group) during the swim.
I heard there was a smaller than usual crowd of athletes today. And looking at the results for the past few years, the number of individual finishers has been about:
295 in 2012
336 in 2011
420 in 2010
448 in 2009
Not a good sign that interest in the hometown race is waning. I also noticed that there were fewer than 1000 athletes at the Olympic-distance Memphis (Tunica!) in May triathlon for the 2nd year in a row.
Larry
Larry Creswell
ladnday
Jun 2, 12 20:35
Post #9 of 20
(739 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Did the race today. Great event. First time out for it. Loved the course. Awesome support from the volunteers and race staff.
I didn't mind the TT start. I passed a huge chunk of athletes in the water -- judged by how any bikes were on my rack still when I was leaving T1 and by the numbered caps I noticed running up the boat ramp exit -- and I felt like I had clean water for the entire swim.
As for the "wetsuit legal" 74 degree temps. I believe that was a complete screw-up by the officials. There is NO way that water was 74 degrees. I actually feel bad for the folks who wore their wetties, I was "warm" by the time I made it 200m into the swim.
With regard to not knowing who you are competing against due to TT start: I love the fact that #282 won OVERALL by almost 2 minutes but he had to pass pretty much everyone in the race to do it. Heck, he probably just used that as motivation to keep going like his hair was on fire... On the whole (and speaking from a front-of-the-middle-of-the-packer), I basically treat TT starts all the same in that if I come up on someone in my AG I do my best to pass with authority so there is no question I am going to beat them to the line then I hope for the best that the clock plays to my advantage.
(This post was
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bufit323
Jun 2, 12 20:55
Post #10 of 20
(732 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [ladnday]
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ladnday wrote:
#282 won OVERALL by almost 2 minutes but he had to pass pretty much everyone in the race to do it.
You do realize that #282 had a distinct advatange over #1 (last year's winner), right? I am not saying it made up 2 minutes, but it gave him extra time to legally draft/pass all those people.
Also, I saw #1 "leading" the race with 2 miles to go, he didn't have anyone anywhere near him. Don't you think he would have liked to race #282?
I am glad you posted, I think the example you gave makes my point more than anything else could.
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
ladnday
Jun 2, 12 21:14
Post #11 of 20
(714 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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"
I am glad you posted, I think the example you gave makes my point more than anything else could."
My suggestion that #282 had to pass everyone while dealing with athlete traffic, yelling "on your left," fighting for aide station support on the run, etc... coupled with your suggestion that #282 was legally drafting and that #1 had nobody to compete against on the run BOTH fall into the realm of nebulous speculation. It is called a "time trial" start for a reason. As stated above, TT starts are purely a race against the clock. Yes, it sucks that the one-on-one, competitive part of the sport (spotting a calf numbered with the same age grouping as you on the bike/run) is leveled off (or even negated -- open for debate) with a TT start, I still personally believe that the performance of ANYONE racing from behind such as the OA winner today did needs to be respected.
(This post was
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by ladnday on Jun 2, 12 21:20)
bufit323
Jun 2, 12 21:39
Post #12 of 20
(706 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [ladnday]
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ladnday wrote:
"
I am glad you posted, I think the example you gave makes my point more than anything else could."
My suggestion that #282 had to pass everyone while dealing with athlete traffic, yelling "on your left," fighting for aide station support on the run, etc... coupled with your suggestion that #282 was legally drafting and that #1 had nobody to compete against on the run BOTH fall into the realm of nebulous speculation. It is called a "time trial" start for a reason. As stated above, TT starts are purely a race against the clock. Yes, it sucks that the one-on-one, competitive part of the sport (spotting a calf numbered with the same age grouping as you on the bike/run) is leveled off (or even negated -- open for debate) with a TT start, I still personally believe that the performance of ANYONE racing from behind such as the OA winner today did needs to be respected.
First, I didn't show a lack of respect for the OA winner; the rules were established, he abided by them and posted the lowest time, he wins.
Second, we are not going to agree about 282's advantage or disadvantage, if you don't think it is advantageous to pass donzens and dozens of slower riders, I will not be able to convince you.
Third, as far as racer #1 being all alone on the run, I saw him. I didn't say he had no one to compete against, I said he didn't have the fastest guy in the race to compete against.
All of the above though is secondary, my argument is not against a TT start. It is against a TT start where people are lined up based upon when they clicked "register."
Can you justify that?
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
bamatriguy
Jun 3, 12 5:48
Post #13 of 20
(675 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [jhightower]
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I feel ya Jeff....... Just need to close them or go one lane or something..... It is deadly out there..... So far knock on wood all has been okay but could be an issue especially if the Pre 2009 numbers where racing.... I enjoyed the race just worry about safety. Bottom line change the bike course or start the race at 6am would help. I had a car come within inches of me three or four times.... Pretty sure the trace and nps would be okay with a Saturday closure for 3 hours. Or move the race to Sunday. I follow and love Jesus and have no problem racing on a Sunday with less traffic.
As far as the TT and Aaron's win we all had different pros and cons. No drafting in the top ten but also no traffic to slow us down either. Bottom line Nathan and Aaron are studs. Who knows what would happen if all the top folks started together. Great race I have a feeling the issues come from NPS and the federal government not ridgeland time to call your congressman!.
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." JOHN 16:33
Terra-Man
Jun 3, 12 6:51
Post #14 of 20
(649 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Aaron Ainsworth is an exceptional athlete and won on having the best fitness in the field. Period. He raced as number 1 last year at Heart o Dixie and was out front the whole race, by himself...and guess what? He still won by minutes.
Later starters have to deal with swim traffic, car traffic on the bike, potentially warmer conditions (not a factor yesterday), and do not have the advantage of bike pacing with the front of the race. I started 188 and had one of the faster bike splits. If I would have started in top 10, I would have had one of the faster bike splits. Not sure which would have been faster, but would have likely been within 10 seconds.
I do agree that it is best when you start by age group with the TT format...but the people with the best fitness are always going to come out on top regardless of start order.
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Partial to: Zipp, Quarq, & SRAM, Newton Running (haha not holding my breath for a swim sponsor)
jwrdds
Jun 3, 12 8:14
Post #15 of 20
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Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Let me assure you that having to ride through all that traffic was definitely not an advantage! FYI I started #273 and had to slow for cars that were trying to get around the slower bikers etc.. It was not helping to make it faster. The TT start I believe was to cut down on the excessive drafting that has been rampant at this race for a while.
zeusrun
Jun 3, 12 9:41
Post #16 of 20
(602 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [jwrdds]
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I have raced the Heatwave since 1988 and it is a great race. Sorry to see the numbers going down. BTW, the Grandman in Fairhope, AL. is the same day and their numbers are going up---shorter distance is more attractive for newbies. I am a triathlete, a USAT Official, and a race director. I have no problem with Heatwave, or any other race, doing a TT start as long as they advertise it as such. Our races are TT starts for several reasons: 1. It spreads out athletes on the swim and makes for less of a "contact sport" during the swim and a safer swim. This is a benefit to all racers, but especially newbies. 2. It helps to spread out athletes on the bike course which leads to fewer position penalties (drafting, blocking, etc.) 3. It does encourage early registration so we (race organization) can plan accordingly for the race. Also, first in line for registration means first in line to race. An ideal way to do it is like Memphis, TT start lined up according to age groups.
Back in the day, races used to ask for estimated swim times to seed athletes in waves and TT starts. Guess what? People lie! I was always honest with my times and I passed lots of people during the swim. It made the swim more difficult by having to deal with all the traffic and congestion in the water.
Finally, it requires a bit of math during the race, but to figure out "where you are" during the race and to determine the start time difference between you and another athlete just find the difference between you race number and their race number and multiple it by the time difference between starters. (Example--#200 minus #100 = 100 x 5 seconds between starters = 500 seconds divided by 60 = 8 minutes and 20 seconds.)
bufit323
Jun 3, 12 10:39
Post #17 of 20
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Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [zeusrun]
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zeusrun wrote:
I have no problem with Heatwave, or any other race, doing a TT start as long as they advertise it as such
.
They didn't
zeusrun wrote:
It spreads out athletes on the swim and makes for less of a "contact sport" during the swim and a safer swim. This is a benefit to all racers, but especially newbies.
Not if those nubies registered in the top 50 people and got swam through by all the fast people behind them. There was plenty of this going on, as noted, I am not very good and I passed over 40 people in the water.
zeusrun wrote:
Finally, it requires a bit of math during the race, but to figure out "where you are" during the race and to determine the start time difference between you and another athlete just find the difference between you race number and their race number and multiple it by the time difference between starters. (Example--#200 minus #100 = 100 x 5 seconds between starters = 500 seconds divided by 60 = 8 minutes and 20 seconds.)
This assumes several things that are simply not true, first of all, your math only works if evey person shows up, if number 51 shows up, then 50 and 52 are 10 seconds apart, if 51 does not show up, then 52 and 50 are only 5 seconds apart, compound this throughout the field and the math is not very useful.
Also, if you are approaching an athlete from behind on the run or bike, you can't see their bib number, when they pass you, if you don't happen to catch their shulder marking, you can't see their bib number.
Finally you are assuming that the people were going off at 5 second intervals, which may have generally been the idea, but execution was not nearly perfect.
ALL OF THE ABOVE ASIDE; can we address the fact that this is supposed to be a competitive event and that having athletes compete under different conditions will cause a competitive disadvantage to one of them and thus make the competition unfair?
While I am arguing that it is an advantage to start from behind, many in this thread are arguing that it is an advantage to start from the front! Either way, this is not longer a level playing field. To base the advantage on time of registration is just crazy.
BLeP wrote:
"I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"
zeusrun
Jun 3, 12 11:17
Post #18 of 20
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Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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Any timing co. worth their salt will place a "ghost" racer when someone does not show up. That is #50 starts, then 51 and 52, but 53 and 54 are no shows. The timer still waits the determined time gap between all the numbers. They do not start any racer early because of a no show. Also, a cure all is to go back to the way we used to:1 wave and everyone goes when the cannon is fired!
Terra-Man
Jun 3, 12 11:27
Post #19 of 20
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Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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There is no such thing as an even playing field in any race where all racers don't start at exactly the same time. There are too many variables. Even in the TDF time trials there is a large difference in starting times, though those with similar standing should have at least similar conditions.
Golf is the worst, when players tee off in morning and afternoon the first 2 days, often facing remarkable differences in conditions.
And back to our sport and this particular race, even if you do wave starts by age group or TT start by age group, there are some racing who are more interested in overall, or even masters, than age group...you can never make it even and exactly fair for each racer that toes the line, short of a mass start.
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tri_yoda
Jun 3, 12 14:36
Post #20 of 20
(551 views)
Re: Heatwave Classic 2012 - Random Time Trial Start [bufit323]
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bufit323 wrote:
Heatwave Classic in Ridgeland Mississippi is a great mid summer race, usually hot as hell. This year for some reason, they switched from the traditional age group wave starts (used to be three or four waves) to a time trial start. Here is the kicker, the start was based on your bib number which was based on order of registration(exception was that first ten people were seeded from last year's finishing place).
Maybe I am a bad example, but I am a decent swimmer and pretty average otherwise. I started according to my bib number and passed at least 40 people in the swim (that is not an exaggeration) so there were 10 - 15 in front of me. I got onto the bike (where I usually get caught by the good folks) and I rode the whole course getting passed by 3 and passing 2.
I get onto the run and there are a few passing me and I am passing a few. Of course, I can't tell who I should be racing, if a guy passes me with my age group on his calf, that guy could be 1 minute in front of me or 3 minutes behind me.
Given that I was "out front" from the swim, and passed by a net 1 person on the bike, one would think that I performed pretty good, until you look at the results and see that I wasn't in the top 30 for men. I guess some people with a 300 bib number must have been pretty fast, too bad I never saw them on the course when they were kicking my ass.
It sucks to get beat by a few seconds and never even see the guy that beat you. A guy creeped past me at mile 5 and I worked my ass off to keep him close and try to pass at end (he was in my AG). When I look at results now, I don't know if he beat me by 2 minutes or I beat him by 2 minutes (though he did beat me to the line by about 5 seconds).
If organizers are reading this, I love your race, I do it every year. If we are going to have time trial starts, can we at least line up in age groups, or seeded based on estimated finish time? It sucks to get beat by a few seconds and never even see the guy that beat you or even figure out who the hell it was (bib numbers aren't shown in results, another small complaint).
Other than the above, the race was awesome, great facility, well organized, well stocked, well volunteered. The weather was even good this time (not nearly as hot as usual).
I don't understand how going by AG would help in a TT start. If there are 40 people in your AG, you still don't necessarily know the time delta to each individual, just because you started closer together. Yes, the delta is smaller, but it could still easily be a minute or more either way.
For a USCF TT start it is usually a 30 second stagger (and they start you within your field), but this is no help in knowing how you are stacking up. You might never catch your 30 second man and be 2nd overall, or you could pass 5 people and be 6th from last. A TT means go balls out, embrace it for what it is, don't use it as an excuse for why someone was faster than you.
I think its cool to mix it up with a TT start. Teaches you the lesson that you always need to remember and that is you are racing the clock. Even in a wave start you can't get complacent about where you think you are in your AG, you may be dropping back in the OA. A tri is always a TT, so go as hard as you can and then you don't have to pretend you have regrets about getting beat by someone.
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