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Most important run for marathon training?
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rpeterson
May 30, 12 13:34
Post #1 of 38
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Most important run for marathon training?
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So, I'm training for a marathon and a HIM, currently doing ~45mpw with 2 8 mile tempo runs and a long run of 15. The long run is right about 2 hours, and I have a hard time getting myself to run longer than that in training, so I was thinking of upping my tempo runs in both length and pace (though not at the same time).
I talked to some friends who do marathons, and they all say I should be getting my long run up first, but they're all pretty slow runners, and I'm trying to get a BQ, so I'm not sure if it's the most appropriate advice for me.
So, long run up, or harder runs up? What say you Slowtwitch brain collective.
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LTBlowUp
May 30, 12 13:37
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long runs. No point in being able to run 10 miles fast if you have to start walking at mile 20.
Cheesy Bottom
May 30, 12 13:41
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Do half marathons, you will be better prepared with that weekly volume and the long run you are doing.
There is no shame in halfs. Personally, my run funometer is empty at two hours.
PJG
May 30, 12 13:44
Post #4 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long Runs! I have learned the hard way.
I was a superstar through mile 16 of the NYC Marathon and barely remember 5th Ave.
After the race I found out my family was tracking me online and watched me self destruct in real time.
karma
May 30, 12 13:48
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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The most important run is your next run. If you don't treat them all as high quality workouts with a purpose you might as well be whistling dixie. Personally I do not beleive in running "junk miles". Run 6 days a week and get that mileage up to 60-75 per week and see how your body responds. You don't say how far out from either your HIM or your Marathon you are and which comes first. Not enough info to intelligently answer your question on volume versus speed/tempo.
Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Borden
May 30, 12 13:48
Post #6 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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When I was trying to squeak under 3 hrs, the big workouts of my last 4 weeks pre-taper were in 2 week cycles of
1st week of cycle
early week threshold like 3x1mile at threshold pace
mid week tempo as 15'WU, 45 (60' 2nd cycle) Marathon Pace, 5-10'CD
week end Long Run as 30' Easy, 60' MP, 30' Easy, 30' MP
2nd week of cycle
early week threshold like 3x1mile at threshold pace
mid week tempo as 15'WU, 60' Marathon Pace, 5-10' CD
week end medium-long run 15' easy, 60' MP, 15 easy, (30 more minutes 2nd cycle)
I built up to this and repeated it twice before my marathon. Then I would taper, recover and start it back up between races. But, I love running too. If I wasn't feeling a workout, I would break the time up (instead of 60', I'd do 20'x3 with short rests) or I would drop to easy pace and do the time. If easy pace was still uncomfortable, I'd bag it. I was not tri training. I hope that helps.
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rpeterson
May 30, 12 13:52
Post #7 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [karma]
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Good point, here's some more info.
I'm running 6 times a week, plan on working my way up to at least 60 before the race which is the first weekend in October (5 weeks after the HIM).
I can do a half in 1:21.
I just don't like running longer than 2 hours, it's mentally draining when I don't have a group, and no one wants to run with me for 2+ hours at a time.
So with all that, would I be better off increasing my 15 miles up to 20+, or get my 2 tempo runs up to 13-14 at a much higher pace. I can do the long runs if everyone thinks it's better, I'm just hoping someone has experience doing what I want with good results.
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jackmott
May 30, 12 13:53
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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the most important run is getting as many miles a week in as your body can tolerate.
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AMT04
May 30, 12 14:00
Post #9 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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I'll go against the grain here. Depending how far our you are from your marathon, I don't think there's any need to go above 2-2.5hrs on your long runs at this point. Leading up to the race I would add a few of race similation runs around 20 miles, but otherwise the extra distance on those long runs aren't helping you as much as their hurting you. Knock out solid long runs that finish at a tempo pace, and then focus on recovering for your next run.
I was able to run low 3hrs without any runs longer than 90 minutes, with a significant negative split on the two halves. Good tempo sessions and threshold interval sessions were very effective at increasing my run fitness and building endurance. Those sessions were short enough that I was able to recover and have another quality run my next session.
I'm certainly not the most experience runner though, so take my input as an n=1.
-Andrew
SpicedRum
May 30, 12 14:17
Post #10 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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all of them.
Bypasskid
May 30, 12 14:28
Post #11 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [SpicedRum]
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my longest run is 15 in training and i get very decent marathon results and IM results.
its quality over quantity. why kill yourself?
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DC Pattie
May 30, 12 15:16
Post #12 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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35K at race pace about 4 weeks out. That's my indicator piece.
But I think the most important aspect is just getting your weekly mile total up. Everyone (save the folks running 120 miles +) has room to go up and if done correctly will benefit from the extra milage. So if your running 40 MPW, try 55 MPW.
(This post was
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by DC Pattie on May 30, 12 15:19)
Thomas Gerlach
May 30, 12 17:23
Post #13 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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It probably really depends on your background more than anything. If you don't have the base miles in over many years then working on the long run can be a good thing. For me, the long run is absolutely worthless - in fact in my build up to St. George my longest continuous run was on the order of 10 miles and that was during my base building phase like 3-4 months before the event. I did go to the track though and bang out 4 or 5 x 3 miles at about open marathon pace and maybe descending down to a half marathon pace by the very end. I take about 5-10 minutes rest between each 3 miles and work on loosing up the body.
For the me, the bread and butter is going to the track and doing sub-threshold work working on raising my lactate threshold. If you raise that bar your sustainable pace at any distance moves up assuming your body has the proper durability. Knock out a quick 3-mile just under 5k pace and do that over and over again. People who talk about falling apart at mile 16, 18, 20 usually just went out too hard.
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Greggor
May 30, 12 17:45
Post #14 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long runs, you think it is draining to go 15 miles-try tacking on those extra 11 at the end having not gone longer than 15. Almost everyone fails to meet their "projected" marathon time using the various calculators or VDot tables (McMillan runnig calc most commonly used these days). Why is that? Lack of endurance. Worst I have been off is by 2 minutes over the distance of the marathon. Get in the long runs, get them up to 20-22 range, when they get easy but boring start picking up the pace the last 6 miles finishing 30s/mile faster than race pace. If you get in 5-8 long runs going into a marathon, you will be faster at all distances and BQ will likely be trivial.
Of course, this might come at a sacrifice of your optimal training for the HIM.
NAB777
May 30, 12 17:51
Post #15 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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A 2.14 marathoner once told me two things about training for a marathon.
1) If you only run once a week, make it a long run (inferring that it is the most important run)
2) Never run your long runs too hard.
Verbruggen said: “There is nothing. I repeat again: Lance Armstrong has never used doping. Never, never, never. "
wheels2
May 30, 12 17:54
Post #16 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [SpicedRum]
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SpicedRum wrote:
all of them.
Bingo....
rhayden
May 30, 12 17:57
Post #17 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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Greggor wrote:
Long runs, you think it is draining to go 15 miles-try tacking on those extra 11 at the end having not gone longer than 15. Almost everyone fails to meet their "projected" marathon time using the various calculators or VDot tables (McMillan runnig calc most commonly used these days). Why is that? Lack of endurance. Worst I have been off is by 2 minutes over the distance of the marathon. Get in the long runs, get them up to 20-22 range, when they get easy but boring start picking up the pace the last 6 miles finishing 30s/mile faster than race pace. If you get in 5-8 long runs going into a marathon, you will be faster at all distances and BQ will likely be trivial.
Of course, this might come at a sacrifice of your optimal training for the HIM.
x2 on this!
if the OP can run a 1:21 half then all that is required for BQ is endurance....which will only come with long runs.
Mad Jee
May 30, 12 18:16
Post #18 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [DC Pattie]
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35K at race pace about 4 weeks out. That's my indicator piece.
Almost 22 miles at race pace as a workout?
For me, 15 miles done at marathon pace 4 weeks out indicates I am on track.
You're doing 85% of the race in training? I don't do
any
runs that long, and anything 20+ is done at probably 1 minute slower than race pace per mile, if not more.
Portside Athletics Blog
WillyMFire
May 30, 12 18:37
Post #19 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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15 miles with a good chunk of race pace thrown in should be good if your overall weekly mileage is high (50+). I have found that at least for me, running over 18 is pretty pointless and does more harm than good.
"If he dies, he dies" -Ivan Drago
Green Barf
May 30, 12 18:45
Post #20 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [WillyMFire]
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This is the easiest question ever posed on here.
The most important run is the second run you do each day. End of story. Every serious marathoner, every, runs doubles.
You're welcome.
(This post was
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Green Barf
May 30, 12 19:28
Post #21 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf]
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http://www.letsrun.com/...d=2472389&page=0
For those of you who think the long run is the most important, I dare you to read this whole thread and stand by that comment. Malmo is a 2:12 marathoner and former American record holding in the half marathon, and is clearly one of the most knowledgeable runners out there.
Borden
May 30, 12 19:56
Post #22 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf]
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Green Barf wrote:
http://www.letsrun.com/...d=2472389&page=0
For those of you who think the long run is the most important, I dare you to read this whole thread and stand by that comment. Malmo is a 2:12 marathoner and former American record holding in the half marathon, and is clearly one of the most knowledgeable runners out there.
Are 2x/day runs beneficial for triathlete training?
At what mileage should we introduce the second run?
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DiMOND BiKES
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knobjob
May 30, 12 22:04
Post #23 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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All runs matter. But for marathons the long run matters most. Weird shit happens to you after 3 hrs of running. Best to work out those kinks in training.
LTBlowUp
May 31, 12 6:34
Post #24 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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So run the first 2 hours solo, and then have someone meet up with you for the last hour.
CJS25
May 31, 12 6:38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [PJG]
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Haha this happened to me at my first ever marathon in 2005 (Chicago)...went out with crazy expectations by starting to run in the 2:55 pace group...blew up after 25k, walked, shuffled and jogged the remainder for a horrid finish. This all while several close friends were getting text updates haha...pretty embarrassing.
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