Juan Pelota confirms: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee - what about Macca + Whitfield? (Page 3): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

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Juan Pelota confirms: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee - what about Macca + Whitfield?

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psychosyd

May 25, 12 9:46

Post #51 of 172 (7651 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Love it!

I highly doubt that Simon and MACCA place a 1000th of the importance that slowtwitch does on the outcome of such a race.

canadiantriathlete@blogspot.com
NCCP certified Comp| CTC coaching and PT coming soon!

BLeP

May 25, 12 10:11

Post #52 of 172 (7602 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Rappstar wrote:

"Armstrong agreed to �throw in the bike,� Edeker said, as part of a deal that Hy-Vee worked out with Armstrong to promote its triathlon." Now, the question is, will HyVee offer Macca & SQW "a deal" as well? SQW & Macca have nothing to prove in triathlon. And if Lance wants to prove something to them, he should help to find a way to make it worth their while to show up. And don't point to the prize money. I can (almost) guarantee you that isn't what Lance is showing up for...

Jordan, don't take this as me taking anyone's side on this but what's so bad about a deal? Doesn't Macca have a deal to race Cairns? Are other pros being paid to hardly train for/"compete" in that event like him?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Rappstar

May 25, 12 10:29

Post #53 of 172 (7550 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [BLeP] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

BLeP wrote:

Rappstar wrote:

I may be misreading your question, and if so, my apologies. I do NOT object at all to the fact that Lance is being paid to show up in HyVee. Appearance fees are a long standing part of this sport. I've been paid a few myself. So, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Lance getting paid. What I object to is the attitude of, "hey, let's all do this race so that you can show me up. Oh, by the way, YOU should just show up for the 'privilege' of racing on the same course as me / proving me wrong / etc. I'm getting paid though."

Should Nolan Ryan show up to my house and throw some fast balls by me if I say, "hitting a MLB fast ball isn't that hard."?

Here's my point - Lance is cashing in on this whole adventure. And yet somehow every other triathlete - especially proven champs - should just show up to race against Lance for nothing more than the opportunity to "race with Lance"? I think that's ridiculous.

Lance is getting paid. So if you want to use other pros - like SQW or Macca - to make a better show out of it, which will certainly monetarily benefit those at the top, then just make sure that you are ALSO compensating those other guys. I think it's especially disingenuous when Lance comes on and says, "I don't need a job; I need a challenge," like somehow he's only there for "the love." However, even if he is, that still doesn't change the fact that this is a job to these other guys.

bhobbs

May 25, 12 10:33

Post #54 of 172 (7537 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Neither Macca or SQW "need to show up" to race Lance. Id imagine they will want to, however.

Lance and Hy-vee made a deal that's good for both. We don't know details or either party's motivations. Beyond money, the chance to race twitter adversaries is probably enticing.

This is all great news!! I can't wait. Why so bothered?

In Reply To:

BLeP

May 25, 12 10:37

Post #55 of 172 (7513 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I thought you were upset that he had a deal. I agree that Macca and Simon shouldn't then show up to prove something. But I am not certain that this is what Lance is saying, merely what people on this thread want to see.

Regardless, Hy-Vee is a non draft event anyway so this three way race wouldn't prove much of anything. I think Macca basically said come out and try ITU and see how hard it is. Hy-Vee isn't ITU.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

bhobbs

May 25, 12 10:47

Post #56 of 172 (7482 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] (Deleted by bhobbs) [In reply to]

Holyman

May 25, 12 11:29

Post #57 of 172 (7405 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Rappstar wrote:

What I object to is the attitude of, "hey, let's all do this race so that you can show me up. Oh, by the way, YOU should just show up for the 'privilege' of racing on the same course as me / proving me wrong / etc. I'm getting paid though."...Here's my point - Lance is cashing in on this whole adventure. And yet somehow every other triathlete - especially proven champs - should just show up to race against Lance for nothing more than the opportunity to "race with Lance"? I think that's ridiculous.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you take issue with the fact that Lance is being compensated for showing up, while the other pros are not. I can see how that comes across as a perceived slight, but bear in mind the following:

We don't know if HyVee (or Lance) will reach out to other notable athletes such as Macca or Simon with an offer of an appearance fee. It will be nice if they do, but not surprising if they don't, for reasons listed below.
Macca himself is champing at the bit to race Lance in Kona this year and has publicly expressed interest in doing so. Also, given his very vocal defense of ITU-style racing, why would Lance or HyVee not expect Macca to show up without additional compensation besides prize money? I also don't think Macca is financially motivated to race Lance. From what I gather from his interviews, he's motivated by the challenge to race someone he considers to be a smart and savvy athlete.
Non-champion triathletes have to pay $25,000 just to train with Lance and his friends. Can Simon or Macca fetch that same price? How much would they be able to charge if they kept everyone else on the team, but replaced Lance with either Simon or Macca (This isn't a slight on both Macca and Simon. I've met them both in-person and was very impressed with them)? Like it or not, the free-market values Lance more than Simon or Macca.
Macca or Simon don't have to show-up at HyVee. If it's not in their best interest as a professional athlete/husband/father, they don't have to race at HyVee.

I'm not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just pointing out the facts that may explain the economics of this decision.

(This post was edited by Holyman on May 25, 12 11:48)

devashish_paul

May 25, 12 11:33

Post #58 of 172 (7391 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [bhobbs] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

bhobbs wrote:

Neither Macca or SQW "need to show up" to race Lance. Id imagine they will want to, however.

Lance and Hy-vee made a deal that's good for both. We don't know details or either party's motivations. Beyond money, the chance to race twitter adversaries is probably enticing.

This is all great news!! I can't wait. Why so bothered?

In Reply To:

Whether it is wishful thinking on my part or not, I think the part in bold is the most important part of this post.

At some point, no matter how much the guys want to debate the business aspects, they get totally charged out of the same feeling that they and we all got in our first footrace in elementary school, or getting on our first bikes with training wheels and racing our best friends down the street.....just the pure competition.

I would not underestimate that underlying desire that all athletes have. Macca has already thrown some smack the way of Lance a few years ago, and I'm sure he is itching to go head to head. Simon is a former HyVee winner, although I believe in a different format. In the midst of this, there are a boatload of other pros who can/will have massive impact....let's not forget about defending champ Bennet!

cannondale.com |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 6/7 2013, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2013

devashish_paul

May 25, 12 11:48

Post #59 of 172 (7361 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Hey Jordan,

Taking a step back, this discussion is no different than football fans talking on an NFL forum. Some fans might want to see the Giants play the Jets in the superbowl....heck, the NFL would love that subway series. The players would eat it up not because of the money but the rivalry and the pure competiton (I accept that they are already well paid)....and while I wait for a subway superbowl, I'll catch the subway series NHL semi finals this weekend, and I'll wait with crossed fingers to see some of the biggest names in our sport take on Lance at the Olympic distance. If nothing else, I give Lance credit for having the guts to race the best in our sport in a distance that he has not raced in something like 24 years and potentially get his ass handed to him. You gotta give the guy credit for putting himself out there with a "come and get me" atttitude, and unlike cycling when he may have had the attitude and rarely got defeated in his A events, in triathlon he knows he can be beaten and beaten badly, yet he puts himself out there to be smacked.

Maybe that is why the guy is able to generate so much interest in the fan base (whether we love or hate him).

Dev

cannondale.com |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 6/7 2013, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2013

Scot

May 25, 12 12:53

Post #60 of 172 (7269 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dev,
As some one who has been involved in triathlon for thirty yeears and remembers the young kid from Plano ripping up short course races 25 years ago it is fun to see his return to his roots.
I am still so unsure of what his return will do for the sport. Kona is an extremely difficult sell.( Not here but in the main strea sports community) talk of Kona being televised live on national TV seems remote given the fact that it is held on the 5th or 6th week of college football. Even the taped highlight show is aired after the regular college football season is finished (mid December). So live coverage which i think would have the most benefit for the sports growth would be minimal if mainstream sports fans and recreational athletes in other sports do not see it. I also think that while we have excellent live coverage now that may go to a pay per view type setup used by Universal Sports for other prime events such as the Giro. If that is the case than even the modestly interested triathlon spectator may not watchit. Is that progress. Not sure. I recently did a clinic for a local triathlon club and while it had more than a dozen IM finishers within the last two years in the room not one could answer who won Kona last year, let alone who won the first one. These are the fans that Lance will bring to the viewing table and they may pay for a pay per view but i doubt it. College football is still the main draw especially here in Gator, and Seminole country
Now as far as HYVEE that is a huge payday for the sport and the WTC is really trying to bring that into a play as major series his involvement there will help considerably. This all comes down to business from a production standpoint. I think he is doing this sport for the love of it. he is financially secure enough to travel, train and race. he is picking and choosing his events.

I like the banter back and forth with McCormack it is great for the sport. He certainly is not afraid to bait anyone including Lance. It is a shame that he is not racing Kona because he would be interesting to watch. He is not afraid to go on the limit and he can run so his strategy would be interesting. Better to see them race at Vegas as that distance has always been the place where IM and Olympic Distance athletes square off.
Still not so sure he really helps grow the sport it does spark interest among those of us who see this as a bridge between the sports history and present. He and Macca probably are the only ones left who raced against Scott and Allen and this group today.

http://futrmultisport.com/

Slowman

May 25, 12 13:07

Post #61 of 172 (7233 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Holyman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you take issue with the fact that Lance is being compensated for showing up, while the other pros are not."

as i understand it, no, that's not it. whether it's lance, or crowie, or simon, or rappstar, or macca, these are all athletes who routinely receive appearance fees. they've earned that right. if an athlete of this calibre doesn't show at a particular race, it's likely that it doesn't make business sense for him to do so. i don't think any of these athletes have heartburn if they aren't offered an appearance fee at a race.

but then don't fault these athletes for not racing a particular race. i think that's the point jordan's making.

i'm ambivalent. i can see several sides to this. i don't have any good wisdom about how the other pro triathletes should be approaching this.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

h2ofun

May 25, 12 13:39

Post #62 of 172 (7164 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Seems like they should decide what is best for their long term "brand".
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." � Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots� � Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

bhobbs

May 25, 12 13:39

Post #63 of 172 (7164 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

So it's a preemptive argument in support of a Macca and/or SQW no-show. They didn't pay me as much as Lance, so I'm not going. Fine, I won't fault either for choosing not to race. I will, however, be very bummed out.

Like Dev, I hope that ego and competitiveness trump personal finances. I hope WTC does whatever it takes to get them there. Pro sports is better when there's a little hate and anger. Think Isiah walking out before the game ends, slighting Jordan and the Bulls. Now these nerds hug and kiss after games.

Let anger and resentment fuel a great race. Let there be shit talking before the swim, maybe even a shove. Let this race happen. LET THIS NOT BE OUR PAQUIAU v. MAYWEATHER!!!!!!!!!!!

Slowman

May 25, 12 14:10

Post #64 of 172 (7113 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [bhobbs] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"They didn't pay me as much as Lance, so I'm not going. Fine"

you can hold whatever opinion you want, but you fabricated your own take-away out of what i wrote. that is certainly not what i wrote, or implied, nor do i believe that.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

devashish_paul

May 25, 12 14:27

Post #65 of 172 (7083 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Appearance fee or not, I am hoping that WTC can pull some Olympians over to HyVee. They have to do something in the aftermath of the hangover from the 4 year build to London...what better than taking a trip do HyVee.

You can fly from pretty well anywhere in the world to Chicago with a direct flight...hop in a rental car and you're there in 5 hours. Turn around on Monday, back to Chicago and hop on a $99 flt to Vegas, win more than your HyVee prize money gambling in Vegas and hang out for WTC's other championship. Heck WTC could charter an aircraft for the Chicago to Vegas leg and a few buses and make it really easy.

Maybe I should just take a week off work and organize a tour for all these guys, so they can just focus on racing. Or maybe Lance can put the boys at Trek travel to work to make this happen and at the same time, some fans can pay big coin and rub shoulders with the high star power in our sport :-)

cannondale.com |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 6/7 2013, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2013

bhobbs

May 25, 12 14:54

Post #66 of 172 (7053 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Slowman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I guess my simplification and interpretation of your simplification and interpretation of Jordan's opinion was off. :)

Ultra-tri-guy

May 26, 12 0:45

Post #67 of 172 (6790 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Scot] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Scot wrote:

Dev,

I like the banter back and forth with McCormack it is great for the sport. He certainly is not afraid to bait anyone including Lance. It is a shame that he is not racing Kona because he would be interesting to watch. He is not afraid to go on the limit and he can run so his strategy would be interesting. Better to see them race at Vegas as that distance has always been the place where IM and Olympic Distance athletes square off.
Still not so sure he really helps grow the sport it does spark interest among those of us who see this as a bridge between the sports history and present. He and Macca probably are the only ones left who raced against Scott and Allen and this group today.http://futrmultisport.com/[/quote[/url]]

---

You will find out in a couple of weeks if Macca is racing Kona...I'd say that he will be there..

---

Zimzala1

May 26, 12 4:23

Post #68 of 172 (6630 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Ultra-tri-guy] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Rappstar I have to say you posts on here are usually quite insightful and certainly well thought out. This whole Armstrong thing though seems to be knotting you up.

Armstrongs financial means and profile seems to bug the hell out of you yet you are content to use his profile to satisfy your own means.

I am sure there is part of you probably still trying to work out how to navigate the Armstrong thing. However you would do well to keep in mind the observations and judgements you keep making about the way he conducts himself are made without knowing him or having never met him.

People could make a stack of judgements about you and your sound bites on here in much the same way. For example it would be reasonable to conclude from your posts re Armatrong that their is a level of jealousy and hypocrisy in your personality....I am sure that is inaccurate but it is the conclusion that could be drawn without knowing you and merely reading what you post.

Mad Jee

May 26, 12 4:30

Post #69 of 172 (6613 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Should Nolan Ryan show up to my house and throw some fast balls by me if I say, "hitting a MLB fast ball isn't that hard."?

Do you think that you are to hitting fastballs what Lance is to triathlons?

He's not exactly some no talent ass clown...we know he's got some talent ;-)

Portside Athletics Blog

h2ofun

May 26, 12 5:51

Post #70 of 172 (6488 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Zimzala1] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Zimzala1 wrote:

I have to admit I have been surprised on how some of the pro's have reacted to the Lance factor. Some have been very positive and kept things relating to sportsmanship, and I have been very impressed. Others seems to as you have stated have shown their ego's, lack of self esteem, etc. on their sleeves. Now, maybe if I were a pro, I would need an ego to compete at that level. But, over the years the best folks I have done sport with did stay the high ground.

Even in the AGer's, I have meet a few that just could not get over themselves. They thought they were the big fish. I just smiled since unless they could show me a Kona AG title, or a ITU AG title, they were just a small fish.
Having raced thoughtout the world, it did not take long to get my butt handed to me on a platter. What is fun is to just have raced against the best. Win or lose, who cares!!! Best example one gave give their kids is you go out and try. You never know what will happen on race day. And even then, it really does not change anything. I beat Dean Harper at Wildflower. So what, I did not beat the real Dean Harper. With his medical issues, he will probably never be at 100% ever again. All of us will get where our day has passed.

I just wish the pro's could step back and see all the positives that Lance has brought back to our sport. Yea, it is not perfect, but why focus on the half empty side of life!

So yep, we can all have our opinions. I just have so much more respect based on the baggage Lance has, to read and watch the Pro's who stay on track with the half full side of this issue. Mac has been nothing be positive. Crowie positive. Whitefield positive. These are the folks I look to as my role model since it is so easy for me to grab the half empty glass. I no longer want to do this anymore. Life is way to short to be negative.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." � Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots� � Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

tigerpaws

May 26, 12 5:58

Post #71 of 172 (6467 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Zimzala1] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Zimzala1 wrote:

You said what I was thinking, but didn't have the vocabulary to articulate nearly as well.

I love the Rapp story and cheer like mad for him and given Rapp's history of observations I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. *Seems* out of character

(This post was edited by tigerpaws on May 26, 12 6:01)

sciguy

May 26, 12 6:18

Post #72 of 172 (6430 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [tigerpaws] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

tigerpaws wrote:

Zimzala1 wrote:

X3 Very well said. A statement like "Or just satisfaction of whipping you all over Des Moines" seems so out of character for someone we've come to respect.

Genetics load the gun, lifesyle pulls the trigger.

h2ofun

May 26, 12 6:35

Post #73 of 172 (6397 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [sciguy] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

sciguy wrote:

tigerpaws wrote:

Zimzala1 wrote:

X3 Very well said. A statement like "Or just satisfaction of whipping you all over Des Moines" seems so out of character for someone we've come to respect.

X4 Now, there is nothing wrong with smack talk, as long as it is good sportsmanship. I have had a few experiences this season with some top racers that really have floored me. Whether one wins or loses, and how one wins or loses is something I am really watching. Some do it with sportsmanship which I have nothing but respect for these folks. Who cares who "wins". It means NOTHING on our death bed. But I have now seen some win or lose and have been shocked on how they did it, or how they reacted after the event. For these, sportsmanship did not seem to be something they could even understand.

I have talked to a former pro about this and he told me he had some of these same experiences during his pro career. The ones that showed poor sportsmanship he never forgot about, and never looked at them again the same way during future races.

Whether the pro's really understand that every word they say, every look they make, is making their "brand". When things get tough is when ones true character comes out. For whatever reason, some are really going into backup mode when Lance's name gets involved. Some have used this to improve their brand, others have, well, .........

Since Jordan could have been killed with his bike accident, of anyone who you would think would lead by example on how to smell the roses, it would be him. No matter what he does in life, he has won, he is still alive.
So he races Lance and gets his butt kicked, who cares, he is alive and well enjoy to even try. Talk about a story that could make his brand. But, ....
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." � Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots� � Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

Rappstar

May 26, 12 7:46

Post #74 of 172 (6275 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Zimzala1] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Well thought out criticism on several levels. I am not at all bothered by Lance's financial means and profile. I am certain that there is some envy and jealousy of course. I'm a human being. I would love to fly to races in a G-V. But I absolutely do not begrudge Lance his successes. He earned them. The debate about whether or not he "really" earned them is, I think, secondary. For some people it's primary. For some people, it's irrelevant. I will say that, for me, the whole US Attorney's investigation seemed a bit much, just as it did for Clemens and Bonds. I think doping is the province of USADA, not the US Attorney's office. So I certainly don't have some burning desire to see Lance ruined financially "because he is/was a 'doper'." I'm glad that USADA has pledged to continue to investigate, but I'm also glad that the US Attorney's office may focus - though I doubt it - on crooks like Mozilo instead of on Armstrong/Clemens/Bonds/et al.

The other thing that I would do well to remember is that I know a lot more than most people here about what goes on inside the sport. That isn't meant to imply that I have some sort of secret knowledge, just that the business side of this sport is MY business, both as a pro athlete and as an employee of Slowtwitch. So I get a lot of how this business works. And that obviously colors my opinions. But other people don't have that information - and they don't want it. As with most businesses, there is a lot of stuff that is necessary for a business to function that people don't really want to think about. Sponsorship is a great example. I ride Specialized bikes because they pay me to. I *ALSO* really like the bikes and the company. But I think people sort of want to ignore that. That's a bit of the premise of sponsorship. People want to think that Tiger Woods uses Nike clubs because he loves them. I'm lucky that pretty much everything I use is something I'd use even if I had to buy it. BUT, would I use it if the choice was between buying it and getting paid to use something else? That's not so clear. It is my business. But that's not stuff that's fun to talk about. I have been paid to do some races. But when people ask, "what do you like about this race?" they don't want to hear, "I like that I'm getting paid to be here." Not because they don't understand the reality of that, but because it sort of takes away from the pro/amateur camaraderie that is such a great part of this sport. I know I'm uncomfortable in a lot of ways when I am paid to be at a race. It's seems so strange in a lot of ways. But it's the reality of the business. And I don't actually think anyone begrudges that I make a living, but they don't necessarily want to be privy to the details of how.

Add in that with triathlon, the financial side is really pretty well concealed. In a sport like the NBA, player contracts are a matter of public record. And even sponsorship deals are relatively public. Certainly much more than in triathlon, where EVERYTHING is under the table. And I think that the industry likes it that way, because knowledge is power. But aside from when Macca first signed the deal with Specialized, I don't think I've ever seen it made public what an athlete was getting paid. And that's very hard on pros. When I go in to negotiate a contract, I'm pretty much in the dark about what to ask for. Why? Because I have no idea of precedent. I've worked to change this by being more open with some of my friends about what I'm getting and some of them have shared the details of their contracts as well, but generally, we all seem to be siloed from each other. And that clearly benefits the payers, not the payees.

The Lance Armstrong deal with WTC is a great example of this. The deal was announced as, "Lance has agreed to race WTC events. And WTC has agreed to partner with Livestrong with the goal of raising $1mil." That's a great, great feel good story. Lance goes on and says, "I don't need a job; I need a challenge." And everyone feels great about it. Except that I am 99.9% certain that Lance is getting paid. And getting paid well. AND HE SHOULD BE.

[EDIT #2] It's come to my attention that this is not actually true. Lance is not being paid by WTC. He does have a deal with HyVee, which I think the Des Moines Register article is clear about. I wouldn't have a problem if he was being paid by WTC, but my information that Lance was being paid by WTC is incorrect.[END EDIT]

But no one talks about that. And I don't think that Macca or Simon has the same value as Lance. And I don't think that I have the same value as Macca or Simon. But I think that there was the potential to really show that the pro race had some value. And that pros had some value. And I think that is what really irked me with that article in the Des Moines register. THAT was the first time that it was ever even mentioned that Lance was doing all this for something other than "the love of the game." Everyone here wants to see Macca and Simon race Lance. Including me. But what I think is upsetting - perhaps more than it should be - is the idea that Simon and/or Macca should do it because they are "twitter nemeses" or because it's a "privilege to race Lance" or...

Now, I don't think it's Lance's responsibility to broker a deal for Simon. Or for Macca. But one of the things that I think irks me - and irks some other pros is this sense that Lance is racing in the pro ranks, but that he's not really a peer. I mean, I get that he is - as a celebrity - on a totally different level than I'll ever be - or want to be. That's not what I mean. I don't need to pal around with Lance the way I pal around with Matt Lieto. What I want to know is that Lance respects other pros (he doesn't need to respect me) - especially guys like Simon and Macca - not just as athletes, but also as businessmen. That he respects that this is their job. Lance doesn't need to play "agent." But he has a good agent. And he has sway. And, with Simon, he shares a major sponsor - Nike. I think that it'd be great if - in sync with proposing the showdown at HyVee on twitter - Lance also called up Bill Stapleton (who was actually Simon's agent after Sydney before he realized there was was less money to be made focusing on Simon instead of focusing on Lance) and say, "Bill, let's get Nike to do a big thing about Simon racing me at HyVee after the Olympics."

Does he NEED to do that? Of course not. SHOULD he do that? I think that's pure opinion, and I don't think any one of them is right. But I think EVERYONE involved - including Lance - would benefit, not only in terms of good will, but also in terms of profit.

[EDIT #3]Apparently, Lance did reach out to Simon privately about racing. But Simon can't do the race because of a prior commitment. I will very loosely blame Simon for not telling me this. But really, it's also my fault for not checking with him.[END EDIT]

Some of you may have read about the big event at the end of the year with triathletes and cyclists that Macca is a part of. And I'm also a part of it. And I am a part of it because Macca brought me on board. Is Macca making more money from it than I am? Of course he is. And he should be. And yes, Macca is my friend. But I know Macca well enough to know that if there was someone else that would have been a better business decision, he would have picked that person. And he should have. But I think he respects me as an athlete and a businessman and thought I could profit from being a part and that he could profit from my being a part, so he brought me on board. This sort of thing is easier for me to talk about, because I think it's pretty obvious that we are all getting paid to do it. That's not something that people would be uncomfortable with, unlike at a race where people might not really want to think about that.

This all sort of ties in with the Melissa Rollison thread, and Monty's comments that we are athletes, not "actors." But that's where I disagree. There's a huge amount of "acting." Not like lying or being disingenuous. But just in terms of the back and forth that goes on between pro athletes and spectators/age-groupers/whatever. I don't really want to talk about getting paid to ride the bike, and you don't really want to hear about it. Even though you know I'm getting paid, and I'm getting paid because a given company thinks that I might help them to sell more stuff. That's what I mean by "acting." I am getting paid to sell you something. That doesn't mean, of course, that I'm trying to lie to you or trick you or anything. I wouldn't represent a product I didn't believe in. But, to return to the topic of bikes, there are a LOT of great bikes. I would like you to pick Specialized from those great bikes. And Specialized would like me to get you to pick Specialized. But that's never talked about. And maybe it never will be. And maybe it shouldn't be.

Or races. I really, really wanted to race IMSG. But it never fit into my schedule. But this year, I thought it might. But ultimately, I chose to race Texas instead because it had 3x as much prize money. But when I talked about all the things I liked about the race in Texas, I never mentioned that. And it's not because WTC asked me not to. I mean, they make the prize money public, so it's no secret. But I just dont' like talking about that. I like talking about the awesome run course through the mall with a ton of spectators. And I do love that. And somehow I think that talking about the money cheapens that. BUT, I think the money IS important. I think $5000 to win an Ironman is pretty sad (what Ben got for IMSG). But I also don't think that there's inherently more value to it than that. It's just that I think there could be - and should be - more value for everyone. And, even more, that there WILL BE. Except that when you look at prize purses - at individual races - over the past twenty years, the trend isn't exactly encouraging.

I've already written way more than I intended to - and way more than you wanted to read, I'm sure. So how does this translate into me launching the jab at Lance on Twitter? When Lance races, he's a pro. At least from the time the guns goes off until the tape is broken, Lance is the same as every other pro athlete. But the rest of the time, he's on the sponsor/race side of the fence. When you go on Ironman.com, Lance Armstrong has his own section of the website. I think that's great. What bothers me is not that Lance has his own section. It's that there isn't a section anywhere on that site for all the other pros. It's not like there is "click here for Lance news." "Click here for news on the 1,000 or so other pros that do our races." Of course, Ironman does certainly give pro athletes - including me - some great exposure. I was honored to have my Rhapsody playlist covered in a neat spot after IMTexas. So I certainly don't think that WTC doesn't recognize us. It's just the disparity between the two. But WTC is a business. And while Lance is also, now, a business - like the Jordan (#23) everyone knows, he only needs one name - he was once just like the rest of us. A lot has been made about Lance returning to his roots as a triathlete. And I think that's where I get upset. Superficially, he's returning to his roots. He shows up in transition the same way he did 25 years ago. And I just think it would be nice if he acknowledged that as hard as he worked, that he got some lucky breaks (and some really unlucky breaks), and that he was once in the same place as the rest of us. That, for a while, he did need a job and not just a challenge. But I haven't seen that.

Unfortunately, what I wrote above doesn't fit into 140 characters.

EDIT: I'm not a fan of redacting stupid stuff that I say, because I think I should have to stand for it. But, as Zack C. pointed out, I should have left off that very last paragraph. And in re-reading it, I wish I had. So, I wish I had just written what I wrote above. But I didn't. I also wrote what's below. Though I wish I hadn't. But I'd like to remain accountable, even if only to myself, for having done so.

I wish I hadn't written this.

Everyone keeps talking about how much money Lance is going to bring "to the sport," or even "to other pros," as if Lance is just like one of us. But what I've seen is that Lance racing triathlon is really good for Lance. And it's really good for WTC. But like the trickle down economics argument that is so popular - and so full of crap - in the discussions about the larger economy, I think it's pretty much crap here too. I'm not saying Lance needs to give Macca or Simon or any other pro a hand out. I'd just like to see him at least off a bit of a hand up. Does he need to? Absolutely not. But I also think I should be free to dislike him for not doing so. And so when the Des Moines Register article came out, and it was - for the first time - made so clear that he's cashing in while it seems everyone else ought to just do it for any one of the reasons trotted out that have nothing to do with making money, it upset me enough that I wrote something that perhaps I shouldn't have. I have emotions, and while I might apologize for how I wrote what I wrote and the particular words I chose, I will not apologize for having an issue with the fact that Lance races on the course as a pro athlete, but that off the course, he's treated like a business partner, and that he doesn't seem to give a shit about that. Yes, it was big news when Lance won Florida 70.3, despite beating a field of nobodies (except Max Kriat). But how long will the public care about Lance winning races against empty fields? I don't know, but I don't think that long. And I don't think Lance really wants to race against nobody. I think he values the competition as an athlete. But I also think he values the competition as a businessman. But I don't think he's willing to actually help create that value, even though he wants to profit it from it. And that's what pisses me off. So, as I wrote, "do those other guys get deals too? Or just the satisfaction of whipping you all over Des Moines." Because I think they deserve the former. And I think it's no skin off Lance's back to help them get it. And I think EVERYONE would win the process.

Rappstar

May 26, 12 8:02

Post #75 of 172 (6228 views)

Re: Shampoo + Blowdry Smackdown in HyVee: Lance + Macca + Whitfield [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

TL;DR version, courtesy of EricM35-39

ericM35-39 wrote:

my view: you are encouraging LA to stop being a triathlon celebrity and start being a triathlon professional.

As in, professions have barriers to entry, codes of conduct, certifications and re-certifications, and memberships in professional organizations, etc.

IOW, look out for the sport at large, your fellow athletes, *and* yourself, in addition to the league or brand or corporation you affiliate with as an athlete.

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