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Partially blind triathlete sues

 

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h2ofun

May 2, 12 14:40

Post #151 of 170 (1292 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:
sotto1 wrote:
Quote:

NO blind athlete that I know of is in favour of this rule...


Here's at least one. Two-time ITU World Champion Ivonne Mosquera-Schmidt (who is totally blind) sent this e-mail out in 2010 five months before Paratriathlon Nationals to race director, organizers, ITU and USAT staff and at least 30 visually Impaired triathletes.


This morals of this thread were much simpler when we could simply claim that anyone in favor of the rule was a sighted bigot.

Yep. Still looking forward to responses from the folks who implied that. So far, pretty quiet.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


CanadaPC

May 2, 12 17:48

Post #152 of 170 (1264 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There ya go, you found one!! If you notice my quote it states No athlete THAT I KNOW OF....I don't know Ivonne and apparently she is in favour...still is not trumping the 30+ athletes I currently know that are against the rule.
Fairness keeps getting tossed around...again see my previous note...putting glasses on Aaron won't make it fair... and that isn't really the issue.
The concern is SAFETY and FURTHER DISABLING another human being...Ivonne did not address that (that i saw).
Those against this rule and giving examples of Clydesdale and wetsuit rules are not being further disabled or disabled at all by these rules.
One issue that isn't being taken into account is that this rule in the Tri6 category is not being extended to other PC categories. You do not see amputees being told their "stump" is 2 inches longer then their competitor and in order to level the field they need to hack it off!?
The rule means a little bit something different to each blind/vi athlete..again Aaron is very concerned with safety (as i am), however I am very concerned with it further disabling me.
I again state that many people are choosing not to educate themselves on the issue and really show lack of empathy or the ability to put yourself in anothers shoes. However, it is no skin off my back as being "handicapped" i will never race against or take awards away from you "pro age groupers" who know everything. I'm just a blind guy looking to compete.....and enjoy a sport that we all share a passion for.
Healthy debate is a wonderful thing, ONLY if you choose to actually become informed on the topic.
Thanks to those out there that are, it is refreshing:)
Really in the grand scheme of things it is not worth getting into a "peeing match" over... as it is only a rule that will affect us poor blind folk:) :)


h2ofun

May 2, 12 18:06

Post #153 of 170 (1258 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

CanadaPC wrote:
There ya go, you found one!! If you notice my quote it states No athlete THAT I KNOW OF....I don't know Ivonne and apparently she is in favour...still is not trumping the 30+ athletes I currently know that are against the rule.
Fairness keeps getting tossed around...again see my previous note...putting glasses on Aaron won't make it fair... and that isn't really the issue.
The concern is SAFETY and FURTHER DISABLING another human being...Ivonne did not address that (that i saw).
Those against this rule and giving examples of Clydesdale and wetsuit rules are not being further disabled or disabled at all by these rules.
One issue that isn't being taken into account is that this rule in the Tri6 category is not being extended to other PC categories. You do not see amputees being told their "stump" is 2 inches longer then their competitor and in order to level the field they need to hack it off!?
The rule means a little bit something different to each blind/vi athlete..again Aaron is very concerned with safety (as i am), however I am very concerned with it further disabling me.
I again state that many people are choosing not to educate themselves on the issue and really show lack of empathy or the ability to put yourself in anothers shoes. However, it is no skin off my back as being "handicapped" i will never race against or take awards away from you "pro age groupers" who know everything. I'm just a blind guy looking to compete.....and enjoy a sport that we all share a passion for.
Healthy debate is a wonderful thing, ONLY if you choose to actually become informed on the topic.
Thanks to those out there that are, it is refreshing:)
Really in the grand scheme of things it is not worth getting into a "peeing match" over... as it is only a rule that will affect us poor blind folk:) :)

You were not the only one who said no one.

Why will you not answer where the line in the sand is for percentage. Is 50% okay, 80%?

He can race 3500 races w/o glasses minus 2, nationals and worlds. So, who is forcing him to race unsafely?

This topic should be dealt with via facts, not emotion, which is clearly how you and others have responded.

Folks said nothing got sent to USAT, etc either, but you have not responded about this that it had.

This is just an example, of many, where folks want special treatment. This for me has nothing to do about the specific issue.

If someone sued because they thought the WTC changing the water temp cutoff for wetsuits at 76 was unsafe, (since no studies have been done that I am aware of) I would be asking the exact same questions.
So, step up to the larger issue about what this law suit is trying to do.

For me this is just a great example of what is wrong with our world nowadays, but just my opinion. :o)
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


Record10Carbon

May 2, 12 18:07

Post #154 of 170 (1257 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Christ, and I was called a jerk for asking the same questions......LOL
----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


h2ofun

May 2, 12 18:16

Post #155 of 170 (1255 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [R10C] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

R10C wrote:
Christ, and I was called a jerk for asking the same questions......LOL

I think we are both put in the same box. :o)

Just amazing how their is selective answering, or ignoring what some others said or ......

As I just wrote, the issue to me means nothing, it is the stepping way above it and asking tough questions about "fairness", "level playing field",
sue to get your way, etc. is what is interesting to see how most respond. But, as an engineer, am used to most folks getting emotional,
not having well thought out counter proposals, and not providing real facts to support things.

Everything has pro and cons. Nothing is perfect. But to keep trying to spin this as a "safety" or "fairness" issue when he can do 3500 out of 3502
(Others numbers which make the point even if not 100% accurate) races means, from the data presented so far, it just seems to be about something else.

And to say USAT, etc. ignored inputs, but when proven they were given at least one racers inputs that this was not true, where are the answers to this?
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


Record10Carbon

May 2, 12 18:18

Post #156 of 170 (1253 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Being "fair" is not why we have rules. We have rules to create standards. If you do not want to play by the standards set (rules)....DONT PLAY


Can a blind guy read that?
----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


oooo

May 2, 12 18:29

Post #157 of 170 (1240 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [R10C] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

R10C wrote:
Being "fair" is not why we have rules. We have rules to create standards. If you do not want to play by the standards set (rules)....DONT PLAY


Can a blind guy read that?


----

I've said it once and I'll say it again.....

If someone signs up for a race knowing the rules then don't cry like a fucking baby when the rules don't suit them..Instead,either petition the RD and ask for the rules to be changed and deal with the resulting action or just race the damned race that you signed up for.....I guess there is another option...don't do the damned race!!!


I'm sure the legendary blind Ironman/Adventure Athlete Ched Towns would be turning over in his grave to hear the petty bitching on this topic....
---


(This post was edited by Ultra-tri-guy on May 2, 12 18:33)


CanadaPC

May 2, 12 18:40

Post #158 of 170 (1230 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [R10C] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey i can take emotion out of it...i love a healthy debate...and really i was not really wanting to get in the "back and forth of it"...but if you want to ask the questions i'm totally open to answering with MY opionion and knowledge. However, i think you need to come to centre a little bit and take a bit of perspective on the situation too.
I'll ask you to pick a disability, any one you choose...put yourself in that situation!! :) Now think of it from that angle...
Actually the ones that show the best perspective are the guides that have chimed in...they get a front row seat to how the PC world works.
1) I'm from Canada...so i don't know exactly what was sent to USAT.. all i know is ITU has not showed interest in even discussing other options.
2) i'm not really sure what else to tell you, being blind is classified as best corrected vision of 20/200 or less... I have 6% of the vision of a "normal" human...Aaron has roughly 20% (i think?), however we see very differnetly. Yes i have less funcional vision then him, but his functional vision is definatley not safe enough to race solo.
3)Yes we are being asked to wear the goggles in a handful of races...but these are the big races. The ones that count.....If you were told that to qualify for Kona and Kona only, you'd have to hack off your hand, becasue that is the rule...you may take issue...although i should not assume anything:)

As to what exaclty the lawsuit is about? read it...what does it say?!
I can only give you my perspecitve a a partially sighted person who raced 10 years solo but due to degenerating vision, i switched to Paratri... why? becasue it was safer for me and my competition.
Why however should i know be made totally blind? Again i state, blindness is not an all or nothing proposition. Just like paralysis or amputation or CP or brain injury or nerve damage is not an all or nothing issue.

By all means, if you wish to discuss...discuss, take your emotion and sarcastic and somewhat narrowminded approach out of it. Meet in the middle. My emotion only comes into play when i feel others choose to be ignornant of facts:)


Jaymz

May 2, 12 19:38

Post #159 of 170 (1210 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [AaronT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AaronT wrote:
It's not always possible for people with disabilities to compete directly with the able-bodied

You are absolutely right. Like many people doing triathlon there seems to be a limitation as to why you can't win outright. Why not just join the rest of us in enjoying the process?

Is there an advantage to you having partial sight over someone who has none?


oooo

May 2, 12 19:49

Post #160 of 170 (1208 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [Jaymz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jaymz wrote:
AaronT wrote:


Is there an advantage to you having partial sight over someone who has none?

---

Such a simple question and yet is the only one that matters..


---


Record10Carbon

May 2, 12 19:52

Post #161 of 170 (1205 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Okay....to concur with Ultra Tri Guy.....


Fact....there are rules.

Fact...if you dont like the rules....do not enter.



Pretty cut and dry. Like all the others, I have no skin in the dame.
----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


styrrell

May 2, 12 20:17

Post #162 of 170 (1196 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [Jaymz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

To the guy who asked, there is a definition for blind in the rules, and for years, you were allowed to race under these rules without BO glasses. This is a rule change and many athletes are fighting it. I'm not sure what the definition is, but its in the rules.

I think almost anyone could see that even amongst the able bodied that would create a stink. Look at the endless threads about WS rules saddle positon and bike tube shapes, most of which don't involved the PITA ramifications of having to race blind folded.

As far as is partial sight an advantage. From knowing and training with Aaron a bit I'd say a bit, though more in training than racing. In a race he is only as fast as his guide would have big issues without a guide. Transitions are likely a help, Years ago when you put him next to the bike he could see the helmet and shoes, riding no help at all. on run maybe. If the guide doesn't call out a curb or post he may see something and avoid hitting it. But absent avoiding a large obstacle I don't see a big advantage for him or the other legally blind/partially sighted people I've captained.

One thing to keep in mind.is that Aaron chose to have guides for the Boston marathon. He needs them, he could've not had them but its dangerous.

My final thought is that able people have differing abilities. I'm not tall, but I don't get to stand on something when I serve in tennis, tall guys aren't told to wear some sort of arm tether so they can't raise their arms higher than mine in basketball. Oh well.

For years Aaron has been deemed blind BY the paralymic federation. Now they are changing the rules. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable fight, particularly compared to say a floaty wetsuit.
Styrrell


Record10Carbon

May 2, 12 20:19

Post #163 of 170 (1194 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey, my "floaty" wetsuit is NOT cheating, it is taking my financial abilities to give me the best advantage I have to offset my total lack of training and preparedness for an event....where did I leave the keys to my P5?
----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


styrrell

May 2, 12 20:32

Post #164 of 170 (1190 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [R10C] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Make you a deal, get the rules changed to only allow EM fixed gears and no WS for able bodied tri and I promise I will try to get Aaron to drop his lawsuit.
Styrrell


AaronT

May 2, 12 20:44

Post #165 of 170 (1189 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [Jaymz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jaymz wrote:
AaronT wrote:
It's not always possible for people with disabilities to compete directly with the able-bodied


You are absolutely right. Like many people doing triathlon there seems to be a limitation as to why you can't win outright. Why not just join the rest of us in enjoying the process?

Is there an advantage to you having partial sight over someone who has none?

Because some people like to compete and some people are blind and there is overlap and someone made up a race and then there were rules and now we are here.

I don't know how many times I have to tell you people I am not blind or visually impaired.


sotto1

May 2, 12 23:50

Post #166 of 170 (1169 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

CanadaPC wrote:

One issue that isn't being taken into account is that this rule in the Tri6 category is not being extended to other PC categories. You do not see amputees being told their "stump" is 2 inches longer then their competitor and in order to level the field they need to hack it off!?....Healthy debate is a wonderful thing, ONLY if you choose to actually become informed on the topic.

Two things here:

1. "this rule in the Tri6 category is not being extended to other PC categories" Not true. TRI 1 (Wheelchair) athletes were asked to accept a new rule at the very same time. They now are not allowed to race in a "kneeler" used by less disabled handcycle athletes. All must lay down (prone) in a "recumbent" used by severely affected paraplegics. They can't go as fast but it makes things a bit more fair. The difference is that they got together and decided to accept the rule even though it cost some of them thousands of dollars to buy new machines. Surprising enough, even though there were athletes who made the same arguments about being made "more disabled", in the end they saw the big picture...even the playing field a bit and get the sport into the Paralympic games then increase participation. "The good of the sport." What a concept!

2. "...choose to actually become informed on the topic". Physician, heal thyself.

.


(This post was edited by sotto1 on May 3, 12 0:20)


sotto1

May 3, 12 0:05

Post #167 of 170 (1164 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

CanadaPC wrote:
Fairness keeps getting tossed around...and that isn't really the issue.
The concern is SAFETY and FURTHER DISABLING another human being.

Regarding fairness: Of course its the issue. Fairness is the only issue that brought about these rule changes.

Regarding safety: Please name one documented instance (in the two full years that this rule has been in effect) of an athlete or spectator or guide or official...ANYONE who has ever been injured by an athlete running while wearing the blackout glasses in an officially sanctioned triathlon. Just one. (Didn't see one cited in the lawsuit...maybe I missed it.)

.


sotto1

May 3, 12 0:19

Post #168 of 170 (1151 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Finally, I want to ask point blank a question I posted earlier that nobody seems to want to address:

Why in the ten years Mr. Scheidies has competed against totally blind athletes did he not propose any "workarounds", remedies or even raise the issue? When he was easily beating every totally blind athlete over and over again, why did he not speak up for them?

Still waiting.

.


aconcagua

May 3, 12 0:36

Post #169 of 170 (1140 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [CanadaPC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Could someone please let me know:

- Are your required to have a partner on the run as a legaly blind person when NOT WEARING the black-out-goggles?
- Are you required to have a partner on the when WEARING the goggles?

I could thing of being it more dangerous for those legaly bling with minimal vision racing solo on the run without accompanying partner. But if the rule was made the way, that they are required to have one when wearing the goggles, where's the problem?


sotto1

May 3, 12 0:48

Post #170 of 170 (1139 views)
Re: Partially blind triathlete sues [aconcagua] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


Yes. All visually impaired triathletes are required to race with a guide:

Quote:
P 2.0 TRI 6 Paratriathlete and Guide Conduct.
The following additional rules apply to TRI 6 Paratriathletes and their guides:
a) TRI 6 competitors must furnish and use one guide of the same gender in competition.
b) Guides must be a minimum of 18 years of age on the day of the event.
c) The TRI 6 competitor may choose to use an elbow lead, tether lead or to run free.
d) All TRI 6 competitors must be tethered during the swim. The tether may be used around the waist, leg or foot.
e) During the run portion, TRI 6 competitors may receive verbal instruction only from their guide.
f) All TRI 6 competitors shall use approved “black out glasses” during the entire run portion (beginning at their assigned space in the transition area.)
g) Bicycles, paddle boards or any other mechanical means of transport may not be used by guides on the swim or run.
h) TRI 6 competitors must use a tandem bicycle. The specifications of the tandem bicycle are:
1) The tandem bicycle is a vehicle for two riders, with two wheels of equal diameter, which conforms to the general principles of UCI construction for bicycles. The front wheel shall be steerable by the front rider, known as the ‘pilot’. The guide shall be the front rider and the TRI 6 competitor will ride in the rear. Both riders shall face forward in the traditional cycling position and the rear wheel shall be driven by both cyclists through a system comprising pedals and chains.
2) The tandem top tube, and any additional strengthening tubes, may slope to suit the morphological sizes of the riders.

i) At no time may the guide lead or pace the athlete or propel the athlete forward by pulling or pushing. Time penalty.
j) Whether or not a tether is being used, the athlete and guide shall not be more than 0.5meters apart at all times. Time penalty.
k) As the TRI 6 athlete crosses the finish line, the guide must maintain no more than the required 0.5 meter maximum separation distance and may not precede the athlete. Time penalty.
l) Guides shall be subject to all USA Triathlon Competitive Rules, including membership requirements.
Infringement of any these rules shall result in a disqualification (DQ) unless otherwise indicated.

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