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Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification?
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Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 20:23
Post #1 of 22
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Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification?
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In the well written article posted in tech - you said:
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These systems still relied on bearings that sat inside the bottom bracket shell. Cannondale rightly understood the bearing load placed on these larger, hollow spindles required a larger bearing altogether. They increased the 24mm diameter spindles to 30mm, which required an increase in the size of the BB shell as well, to 42mm in diameter. Cannondale introduced the BB30 standard, and this is in common use today by many companies. Note that the 68mm wide shell is still being used by those designing to the BB30 standard. This is important, as well, see in a few minutes.
Not to nit pick - but was it not Magic Motorcycle who came out with a crank set called "Sweet Wings" who invented the more modern way of doing things? Cannondale purchased Magic Motorcycle in part for the crank, and in part for the (since failed) motorcycle aspect of the company. Cannondale in turn changed the name "Magic Motorcycle" to "Coda Magic" and rapidly diluted the brand with second rate lower quality products bearing the name "Coda". While the boys at Cervelo of their own accord and research came up with BBRight, Cannondale (when not naming their company at a train station) purchased the tech for the crank / BB interface from a guy with a machine shop, a motorcycle passion and an equal passion for mountain biking.
Not to tell you you were wrong, just curious about my recollection of history.
http://mombat.org/...agic_Motorcycle.html
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 20:26
Post #2 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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styrrell
Apr 28, 12 20:36
Post #3 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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Sweetwings were a different crank from Alex Pongs Magic cranks (later licensed by cannondale). SW were steel, and pretty much styled like campy cranks with a portion of the axle attached to both arms, then bolted together. Pretty sure it used a normal screw in type internal bearing.
Pong was a external bearing I believe..
Styrrell
Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 20:44
Post #4 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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Correct, there were many iterations of the design. However, at the time there was a Mavic BB (threadless) that had external-ish bearings, leading to, oddly the Vitus 979's headset (the ubiquitous Mavic locking headset top nut). Mavic tried for a bit and got hung up with ZMS, but Magic (what ever) ---> But, Pong was the first that I had ever seen went to outboard bearings, non square taper and other things that now, 25years later we think are some new voodoo magic. Granted, leaving the 68mm shell is one thing. Cannondale is the first to do that in a non-eliptical (tandem) fashion - all taken from the effects of Pong and the Mavic 610 (square taper).
http://velo-pages.com/...mp;g2_serialNumber=5
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 20:47
Post #5 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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Oh, and no SweetWings - I think you are confusing them with Cook Bros (Steel)
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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styrrell
Apr 28, 12 20:47
Post #6 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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The mavic BB (still made) was internal bearing, it just didn't use the threads in a 68 mm BB shell, but other than that it was identical to a sq taper shimano cartridge BB. It helped save many a cross threaded steel frame in its day.
Styrrell
Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 20:52
Post #7 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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Yep, had a few - adjustable chain line too. Then it was all about the "Q" Factor for a few years and BioPace....
Was it not Tom Ritchey who came up with "Q" as relating to cranks - and just for an article in Winning or some other magazine, catching on like wild fire? Tom Kellog? No, he was Spectrum/Merlin....
Tom someone.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Slowman
Apr 28, 12 20:57
Post #8 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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magic never uttered "bb30". that was cannondale. magic was certainly the inspiration behind it. it was homo erectus. but c'dale was homo sapiens. it brought bb30 to market with its si crank.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
styrrell
Apr 28, 12 20:58
Post #9 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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Grant Petersen (sp) was the Q guy, but most of his bikes had Ritchey parts.
Styrrell
styrrell
Apr 28, 12 20:59
Post #10 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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Those cooks are aluminum, Sweetwings were steel.
Styrrell
Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 21:01
Post #11 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [Slowman]
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So I know. BB30 indicates that they had expanded the BB shell itself to 30mm? The outboard bearings were happenstance - but the system on a whole enabled a larger diameter ball to correspond in part with the larger diameter axle? I recall re-building some BB's at the time and either Shimano or Suntour had about 5000 (it seemed) itsy bitsy balls and even needle bearings in the BB's that were always pitted (Not to mention Stronglight needle bearing headsets).
If so, I was not aware of the larger ID of the shell and corresponding OD of the BB unit itself.
Thanks!
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 21:05
Post #12 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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styrrell wrote:
Grant Petersen (sp) was the Q guy, but most of his bikes had Ritchey parts.
Yep, now I remember.
First "wings" I ever saw in person was at CABDA - they did not have a booth and had a suite instead. They also had some Specialized / DuPont wheels at the time called "Tri Spokes" - designed by NASA ;-)
Steel Cooks (special BB needed).
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
(This post was
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styrrell
Apr 28, 12 21:09
Post #13 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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The 30 in BB30 refers to the diameter of the spindle. The shell is quite a bit bigger. Shimanos octalink Dura Ace BB had lots of balls and needle bearings. But octalink still fits inside a normal 68 mm wide english threaded bb. Hollowtech is the outboard bearing system for 68 mm english BBs.
Styrrell
Record10Carbon
Apr 28, 12 21:13
Post #14 of 22
(1207 views)
Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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I think that we are aging ourselves.
My next question for Dan (Now that I read his Q article) is how a potential player like SMp and its offset Q with an outward splay to the pedals could possibly alter the bio-mechanics of the pedal stroke. But, that is maybe another thread :-)
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
SMp
May 3, 12 20:08
Post #15 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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It was all about rocking torque. BTW, Peterson who came up with the ideas about a narrow Q factor, has some of the widest ones on his Rivendale line. Hmmmmmmmmm
Steve
SMp
Record10Carbon
May 3, 12 20:17
Post #16 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [SMp]
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I do like (a lot) the way the SMp feels when riding, a lot. It took some seat manipulation but the feel - and I do not know why - maybe it is the wider Q - does feel more natural than my Time pedals or any "Look" that I have ever been on.
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
styrrell
May 3, 12 20:22
Post #17 of 22
(1046 views)
Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [SMp]
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Rivendell bikes have normal 68 mm english BB shells. You can pretty much put any crank with any Q factor you want on them. He tends to spec a sugino crank that takes a fairly narrow BB and gives a pretty narrow Q compared to typical Shimano and campy offerings these days.
Styrrell
SMp
May 3, 12 22:09
Post #18 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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I do not believe that a narrow b.b. means a narrow Q factor. The more correct meas. would be outboard side of one crankarm, at the pedal spindle, to the other.
Steve
SMp
Record10Carbon
May 3, 12 22:39
Post #19 of 22
(1007 views)
Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [SMp]
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Oh, here we go with facts again...watch that around here will ya?
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
styrrell
May 4, 12 7:20
Post #20 of 22
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Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [SMp]
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I do not believe that a narrow b.b. means a narrow Q factor.
Correct, thats why I didn't say it did.
The more correct meas. would be outboard side of one crankarm, at the pedal spindle, to the other.
Correct again, so why did you state that Rivendell frames have a wide Q if the ccrank determines it? here is what I described
"
He tends to spec a sugino crank that takes a fairly narrow BB and gives a pretty narrow Q"
Styrrell
SMp
May 4, 12 19:25
Post #21 of 22
(882 views)
Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [styrrell]
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In the past I have had three Rivendales come into my shop. They were stock, and they had some of the widest Q factors I had ever seen on a road bike. But I must add this was back many years ago. Maybe things have changed since.
Steve
SMp
duncan
May 5, 12 1:18
Post #22 of 22
(849 views)
Re: Slowman - BB Spec's - Clarification? [R10C]
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As has already been said, styrell has it right about Sweet Wings, who were nothing to do with Magic Mountain. Sweet Wings, made from steel, were indeed very sweet:
Sweet Wings is now EEcycle Works, purveyors of fine brakes.
A crankset
- the successor to Sweet Wings - has been in the works for a few years now. If it ever sees the light of day it should be killer:
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