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2012 Tour of the Catskills
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mopdahl
Apr 22, 12 17:24
Post #1 of 26
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2012 Tour of the Catskills
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So my friend, who just got into RR and made Battenkll his first Cat V race, wants me to come out for TOC in August. Im game, but looks like a serious kick in the nuts and im not built for it (205/6'3/4w/kg).
Anyone done it? For an out-of-shape 43 y.o., Masters 40+ or Cat IV (or 3--i might be able to upgrade by then)?
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
echappist
Apr 22, 12 18:47
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
So my friend, who just got into RR and made Battenkll his first Cat V race, wants me to come out for TOC in August. Im game, but looks like a serious kick in the nuts and im not built for it (205/6'3/4w/kg).
Anyone done it? For an out-of-shape 43 y.o., Masters 40+ or Cat IV (or 3--i might be able to upgrade by then)?
if you want to do well, 4w/kg ain't gonna cut it even in the 4 field, and master's races are often harder than Cat 3 races.
if you want to take in the beauty of the area, then by all means come out East and switch to a compact with 11x32 as you might be grinding up Devil's Kitchen at 6.5mph for a good 20 minutes.
mopdahl
Apr 22, 12 22:01
Post #3 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [echappist]
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4's out here (RR) are faster than masters or 3's. 4w/kg is fine out here for my size for rolling, but at 8% he wheels come off in a big way. 22%? Steeper than my 18% driveway which i walk up.
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
aidanlynch
Apr 23, 12 5:19
Post #4 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [echappist] [mopdahl]
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I raced TOC in the 5's last year and got blown away. Since then I've put a much larger focus on the bike and road racing.. currently cat 4, 160 lbs, ~4.10 w/kg. TOC is my ultimate goal for this summer after getting so humbled last year. Obviously so many other things go into bike racing, but what kind of w/kg output is necessary to hang with the leaders (say top 10) up the devil? It would be nice to have a tangible # goal to work on.
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klehner
Apr 23, 12 5:45
Post #5 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
(205/6'3/4w/kg)
You have an FTP of 372? Color me skeptical.
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
echappist
Apr 23, 12 5:45
Post #6 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [aidanlynch]
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mopdahl wrote:
4's out here (RR) are faster than masters or 3's. 4w/kg is fine out here for my size for rolling, but at 8% he wheels come off in a big way. 22%? Steeper than my 18% driveway which i walk up.
the famed Devil's Kitchen is 2 miles at 12% avg. Yes, this back in the late 80's when the lowest gear they had was probably a 39x21, but pros walked up the thing since it was hard to gain traction in the rain
aidanlynch wrote:
I raced TOC in the 5's last year and got blown away. Since then I've put a much larger focus on the bike and road racing.. currently cat 4, 160 lbs, ~4.10 w/kg. TOC is my ultimate goal for this summer after getting so humbled last year. Obviously so many other things go into bike racing, but what kind of w/kg output is necessary to hang with the leaders (say top 10) up the devil? It would be nice to have a tangible # goal to work on.
good rule of thumb is 4.4-4.5 w/kg. Funny thing is that to do well in cat 3's, you probably don't need a much higher w/kg
the other thing is that most cat 4's (myself included) probably don't have enough mileage in the legs to handle demanding stage races. The race next day isn't as bad, but still has a good amount of climbing. If you can't get your FTP higher, try to get in back-to-back hard days as that's what'll be required to do well on the second day.
AndrewM
Apr 23, 12 5:59
Post #7 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [echappist]
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I did ToC last year and it was by far the hardest race I've ever done.
Day 1: Not to bad, the TT is long enough to put a little sting in your legs, but not enough to really affect you the next day
Day 2: People push the pace on the climb, but then let up leading into Devil's Kitchen. I'm pretty sure it's longer than 2 miles (my Garmin file has it at 7.3km). I remember going into it with a 39x28 (I've done Sassafras, brasstown, etc. with that gearing without a problem) and feeling like I was dying. For the 20 or so minute climb my cadence was 51rpm. I was STANDING just to increase my leg speed. I had an FTP of about 4.2w/kg (I was overweight) and got shelled out the back quickly on that climb.
Day 3: By far the hardest day. More climbing than the previous day, but your legs are already sore from day 2. I remember coming to the first climb and 2-3 people all said the same thing "Who the !@#$ designs these roads!?". The climbs were never nice and gradual but were in ramps and it destroyed my legs. I crossed the finish line, drove to the nearest restaurant, ate a families worth of food then passed out in my car for 3 hours.
echappist
Apr 23, 12 6:14
Post #8 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [AndrewM]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2Ql9sCbDrM
video from that infamous day. skip to 2:20 for just that one stage
Jon
Apr 23, 12 6:56
Post #9 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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I'm signed up for over 35 cat 5. I really really stink at bike racing, but I just bought a place in the Catskills, so I thought it would be fun to try some local races. I figure I will get dropped fairly quickly and then ride it like a century.
Jon
Apr 23, 12 6:57
Post #10 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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There is also a race put on by the same company at Hunter Mountain the second week in May that you may want to try.
mopdahl
Apr 23, 12 11:35
Post #11 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [aidanlynch]
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Thanks for the info. Any hotel recs for the area? We'll be driving up from CT the AM of the TT.
Resigned to getting spit out the back pretty quickly on the two steep climbs.
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
mopdahl
Apr 23, 12 11:36
Post #12 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [klehner]
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Ken, you are skeptical of everything, why should the FTP of someone you've never met, much less ridden with be any different?
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
(This post was
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klehner
Apr 23, 12 11:53
Post #13 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
Ken, you are skeptical of everything, why should the FTP of someone you've never met, much less ridden with be any different?
I would have thought that someone with such a remarkable FTP (especially after age 40) would have had more remarkable results. Like, say, a 52 minute 40km somewhere.
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
mopdahl
Apr 23, 12 12:38
Post #14 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [klehner]
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Haven't raced in over 2 years & was battling Afib before then for 5+. Furthermore where did I ever mention a 52 min TT? Heck, right now I don't even own a TT bike.
Why is my FTP / wkg such a concern to you?
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
(This post was
edited
by mopdahl on Apr 23, 12 12:48)
echappist
Apr 23, 12 13:53
Post #15 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
Thanks for the info. Any hotel recs for the area? We'll be driving up from CT the AM of the TT.
Resigned to getting spit out the back pretty quickly on the two steep climbs.
The town of Windham and Hunter are traditionally skiing towns, but recently, they've been hit quite hard. You can often find ski lodges for very cheap prices if you look. That's what my team did last year with a total of 5 people.
tri_yoda
Apr 23, 12 17:54
Post #16 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [echappist]
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echappist wrote:
mopdahl wrote:
So my friend, who just got into RR and made Battenkll his first Cat V race, wants me to come out for TOC in August. Im game, but looks like a serious kick in the nuts and im not built for it (205/6'3/4w/kg).
Anyone done it? For an out-of-shape 43 y.o., Masters 40+ or Cat IV (or 3--i might be able to upgrade by then)?
if you want to do well, 4w/kg ain't gonna cut it even in the 4 field, and master's races are often harder than Cat 3 races.
if you want to take in the beauty of the area, then by all means come out East and switch to a compact with 11x32 as you might be grinding up Devil's Kitchen at 6.5mph for a good 20 minutes.
I placed top 10 in the 4s last year, and I was probably only a shade over 4 w/kg. Actually was in 4th wheel over the Kitchen and 3rd wheel over the 2nd KOM climb on stage 3. Just did not have the fitness to close out either race, but I was third on KOM (1 and 2 were also 1-2 on the OA). So, 4 w/kg would be very competitive in the 4s and probably would podium in the 5s (1 or 2 sandbaggers aside).
The second climb on Day 3 actually seemed harder than Devil's kitchen the day before, just because you were more tired and did not expect something so nasty. It was a fucking wall, like 13% for like 600m.
Anyway, it is a pretty demanding race. Back to back 60+ mile stages with very steep climbs.
The Masters around here is usually very competitive, probably faster than the 3s.
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tri_yoda
Apr 23, 12 19:00
Post #17 of 26
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
4's out here (RR) are faster than masters or 3's. 4w/kg is fine out here for my size for rolling, but at 8% he wheels come off in a big way. 22%? Steeper than my 18% driveway which i walk up.
How are the 4s faster than the 3s? This should fix itself in short order, because the fast 4s would upgrade and then the 3s would be faster.
4 w/kg has nothing to do with your overall size, that is why it is W/kg. If you weigh 50 kilos and someone else weighs 100 kilos and you are both 4 W/kg, you are going to climb at the same speed and the bigger (100 kilos) is going to crush everyone on the flats.
gregn
Apr 23, 12 19:29
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [tri_yoda]
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"4w/kg is fine out here for my size
for rolling"
Guess he could mean rolling terrain.
mopdahl
Apr 23, 12 19:54
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [tri_yoda]
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4s are consistently faster than 3s & Masters out here for RR. Crits depend on who show up. TT's--the top 5 are usually pretty close but the fall-off on 4s vs 3/Masters is much greater. Why the discrepancy in SoCal vs everywhere else in the US? 20 million people in SoCal, only 1-2 races every weekend (actually was worse up until this year b/c CBR finally caved & became USAC certified), TONS of new faces in cycling, and even more 20 somethings with no jobs with endless time to train. It wasn't this way 4-5 years ago, but come the recession & the 4s became super, super competitive with everyone trying to upgrade. Makes me wish I had actually cared about upgrading a few years ago as now it requires consistency in training & racing, something that my current lifestyle just doesn't provide.
And yes, my w/kg in the hills has me being dropped consistently with guys that I can crush on the flats. Nature of the beast of being a big guy.
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
mopdahl
Apr 23, 12 19:56
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [gregn]
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Correct. Flat to rolling terrain + 4 w/kg is competitive out here in 4s thru Masters....except for the hard accelerations. Climbs are another matter; even short + steep = doom for me.
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
gregn
Apr 23, 12 20:04
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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Serve you up a fat pitch outta pity...and ya fouls it off.
echappist
Apr 23, 12 20:21
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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mopdahl wrote:
4s
are consistently faster than 3s & Masters
out here for RR
. Crits depend on who show up. TT's--the top 5 are usually pretty close but the fall-off on 4s vs 3/Masters is much greater. Why the discrepancy in SoCal vs everywhere else in the US? 20 million people in SoCal, only 1-2 races every weekend (actually was worse up until this year b/c CBR finally caved & became USAC certified), TONS of new faces in cycling, and even more 20 somethings with no jobs with endless time to train. It wasn't this way 4-5 years ago, but come the recession & the 4s became super, super competitive with everyone trying to upgrade. Makes me wish I had actually cared about upgrading a few years ago as now it requires consistency in training & racing, something that my current lifestyle just doesn't provide.
And yes, my w/kg in the hills has me being dropped consistently with guys that I can crush on the flats. Nature of the beast of being a big guy.
If the 4's are indeed faster, it's more an indication that the 4s will chase everything that moves and don't race tactically whereas 3s and the masters do. Plenty of riders with no tactical sense willing to keep the collective pace high doesn't mean that they are actually stronger individually. Also, it doesn't seem to hold true at San Dima, which is one of the most prestigious races in So Cal.
http://www.usacycling.org/...91&info_id=35542
More telling of individual fitness is the time trial times from a race. Here's the one from San Dima:
http://www.usacycling.org/...26&info_id=46572
. And one from Madera:
http://www.usacycling.org/...25&info_id=46394
.
The 35+ masters are basically as fast as the 3's, and you get the big guns like Thurlow, and two of slowtwitch's finest posting times that would be the envy of most cat 2's.
Since you are a big guy with good FTP, why not look at the "Roubaix" style races? A friend of mine is 205lbs with a FTP of 380. He can cruise up 2% slopes below his FTP, and i'd have to go into VO2max in order to do that solo. You can put a lot of hurt in people in races with strong crosswinds.
mopdahl
Apr 24, 12 6:59
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [echappist]
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True all dat except San Dimas, which was an exception this year due to rain. San Dimas' TT course also favors the climbers (except last year where Dana Skriver did the big guys proud).
And yeah, 4s out here are usually anything but smooth as all the kids have dreams of breakaway glory.
____________
“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.” John Rogers
Shoopdawoop
Apr 24, 12 8:27
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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I'll be there; I'm racing 4s.
Are you guys going to bring two bikes? As in a TT and road or are you supposed to do the TT on a road bike? It says aero bars are ok for the TT but I looked at some videos online and no one seemed to be using them.
aarondavidson
Apr 24, 12 8:47
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Re: 2012 Tour of the Catskills [mopdahl]
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There is also Green Mountain in late August to consider.
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