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So I'm watching the Daily Show . . .
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vitus979
Apr 16, 12 20:13
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So I'm watching the Daily Show . . .
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. . . and Jon Steward has a clip of Romney saying that he wants mother of young children to experience the "dignity of work," even if it costs the state more.
During a campaign stop in New Hampshire in January, Mitt Romney said that mothers of young children who receive state assistance should have the "dignity" of going to work. "Even if you have a child two years of age you need to go to work," Romney said. "And people said, 'Well that's heartless.' And I said, 'No, no, I'm willing to spend more giving day care to allow those parents to go back to work. It'll cost the state more providing that daycare, but I want the individuals to have the dignity of work.'"
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
BarryP
Apr 16, 12 20:19
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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Interesting on a couple of levels.
1) "Dignity of work" is pretty much a BS phrase and I don't think it's fooling anyone.
2) Paying more - not a very republican position.
3) I kind of agree with him.....to a point. I think there should be unemployment for a while, then at some point you should have to do some work to keep it. I'm not trying to make a one size fits all blanket statement, but I don't necessarily think that work-fare is a bad idea.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
vitus979
Apr 16, 12 20:37
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [BarryP]
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You're missing the whole "motherhood IS work" thing.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
LorenzoP
Apr 16, 12 20:44
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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and missing Romney's point that his own wife Ann lacked (lacks) dignity by not being a working out of the home mother.
dave_w
Apr 16, 12 22:41
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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I see the where you're going with it, but I think the point of his thought is to break the cycle of poverty. Multiple generations on the dole creates that "culture of dependency" that the rest of society is beginning to realize is a problem...
sphere
Apr 17, 12 4:19
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [dave_w]
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As I mentioned in the other thread when these comments first surfaced, hurling these comments back in Mitt's face is the perfect response. He was, of course, speaking to the larger point of self-sufficiency when he included "dignity" in the conversation, just as Hillary Rosen was speaking to the point of economics when she said Ann had never worked a day in her life. Neither was intended as an assault on women, and only the combination of political spin and uncritical minds can make it so.
Both comments were distorted and blown out of proportion when stripped of context. For Mitt to point that out requires that he ignores that he and his wife did precisely the same thing with Rosen's comments. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine
vitus979
Apr 17, 12 4:42
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [sphere]
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I actually find Romney's comment (and position on sending moms to work) offensive.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
klehner
Apr 17, 12 5:22
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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vitus979 wrote:
I actually find Romney's comment (and position on sending moms to work) offensive.
Work will set you free, dont'cha know.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
xtremrun
Apr 17, 12 5:25
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [klehner]
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Anne Romney can see Work from her house!
Bumble Bee
Apr 17, 12 5:31
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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vitus979 wrote:
I actually find Romney's comment (and position on sending moms to work) offensive.
Why is it offensive? We all make choices in life. If someone makes the choice to bring a child into the world, they should realize there is sacrifice in properly raising that child.
I have two young mothers working for me who had the choice to seek aid or go to work. They both chose work. One of them is a single mom.
They chose work because they do not choose to feel sorry for themselves and they want to teach their children to be self sufficient.
sphere
Apr 17, 12 5:50
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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I'm not sure why you would find it offensive, given that he's talking specifically about sending unemployed TANF recipients to work (whether or not they're female or parents is essentially incidental) as a means to achieve self-sufficiency. I can, however, see how taxpayers would find it offensive if their tax dollars were used to subsidized adults who make no attempt to achieve self-sufficiency.
The argument isn't over the value of in-home parenting, it's over taxpayer subsidization, and yes, the dignity of self-sufficiency over dependency. All the world-class in-home parenting in the world won't get a family off welfare; education, training, and hard work, will.
"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine
(This post was
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vitus979
Apr 17, 12 5:57
Post #12 of 54
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [sphere]
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given that he's talking specifically about sending unemployed TANF recipients to work (whether or not they're female or parents is essentially incidental) as a means to achieve self-sufficiency.
"Even if you have a child two years of age you need to go to work," Romney said.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
sphere
Apr 17, 12 6:00
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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Yeah?
He's talking about getting back to work and off welfare, regardless of whether or not you have young children. Again, I don't find anything to be offended by.
To be clear, he's not talking about financially self-sufficient parents, here. Only those receiving TANF assistance.
"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine
sphere
Apr 17, 12 6:03
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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I suppose your disagreement is specific to parents of young children, and that you believe that they should stay in the home with a parent, rather than attend day care, regardless of their financial situation?
I've met my share of welfare moms and dads in my day. On average, I'd say their children are much better off spending time outside of that environment, with other children their own age, and with adults who are trained in the art of early childhood education.
"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine
vitus979
Apr 17, 12 6:09
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [sphere]
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He's talking about getting back to work and off welfare, regardless of whether or not you have young children.
It's that "regardless of whether or not you have young children" bit that bugs me, and the notion that mothers of those children can find dignity in leaving those kids in daycare to go off to join the labor force. Dignity, I suppose, that is somehow lacking if they stay home, even on government assistance, to raise their children in the early years of their lives.
I sometimes think you have more of a Puritanical ethic than you realize. This is one of those times.
Dependency on others is not obviously and necessarily undignified.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
ScottyBoy
Apr 17, 12 6:10
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [Bumble Bee]
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Bumble Bee wrote:
I have two young mothers working for me who had the choice to seek aid or go to work. They both chose work. One of them is a single mom.
They chose work because they do not choose to feel sorry for themselves and they want to teach their children to be self sufficient.
Do you think that a majority of mothers choosing to work do so for the reason of "teaching their children self sufficiency"? My assumption is that it has much more to do with A) having affordable health insurance for their children, B) more money in their pocket (depending on price of daycare), C) are career driven, and D) American corporate culture of women in the workplace.
I definitely see your point (and you have two examples to justify your opinion). But many women I know, including my wife, work because it is much harder for a middle class family to live on one household income today than it has ever been. Come to think of it, out of all of our friends the only 3 wives (who are also mothers) we know that do not work are either married to a professional baseball player, are the only child of a wealthy family, and the third just remarried and stopped working because the new husband is a pro golfer.
YaHey
Apr 17, 12 6:13
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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[
quote vitus979] . . . and Jon Steward has a clip of Romney saying that he wants mother of young children to experience the "dignity of work," even if it costs the state more.
During a campaign stop in New Hampshire in January, Mitt Romney said that mothers of young children who receive state assistance should have the "dignity" of going to work. "Even if you have a child two years of age you need to go to work," Romney said. "And people said, 'Well that's heartless.' And I said, 'No, no, I'm willing to spend more giving day care to allow those parents to go back to work. It'll cost the state more providing that daycare, but I want the individuals to have the dignity of work.'"[/quote]
Yes, but when he was saying that, he was referring to the 99% of moms. He wants, you know, "those peoples moms", to all get jobs.
Besides, his wife is a genius on economic issues, advising Mitt on global affairs, and she knows how hard it is to manage nannies and maids.
Old Hickory
Apr 17, 12 7:08
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [YaHey]
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YaHey wrote:
Besides, his wife is a genius on economic issues, advising Mitt on global affairs, and she knows how hard it is to manage nannies and maids.
Well it appears to be "game on" with the The White House's campaign of distractions. And YaHey is showing to be a good foot soldier.
Yo, hey... look over here!!! Hey, yoo hoo!
iron_mike
Apr 17, 12 7:11
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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vitus979 wrote:
He's talking about getting back to work and off welfare, regardless of whether or not you have young children.
It's that "regardless of whether or not you have young children" bit that bugs me . . .
Dependency on others is not obviously and necessarily undignified.
hey, i'm all in favour of the state making it much easier for women (and men) to raise their kids full-time. but - BUT - you've gotta be willing to pay for it. since i'm a pinko socialist, i have no problem with everyone paying taxes to support such things. but you - i never knew you were one of us.
-mike
____________________________________
http://utoronto.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
xtremrun
Apr 17, 12 7:12
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [Old Hickory]
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Old Hickory wrote:
YaHey wrote:
Besides, his wife is a genius on economic issues, advising Mitt on global affairs, and she knows how hard it is to manage nannies and maids.
Well it appears to be "game on" with the The White House's campaign of distractions
. And YaHey is showing to be a good foot soldier.
Yo, hey... look over here!!! Hey, yoo hoo!
HAAAA! HAAAAA! Coming from the right that is freaking hilarious!
Hubblesmith
Apr 17, 12 7:13
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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I'd like them to have the dignity of supporting themselves while not being on the dole. Welfare is immoral.
iron_mike
Apr 17, 12 7:15
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [xtremrun]
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xtremrun wrote:
HAAAA! HAAAAA! Coming from the right that is freaking hilarious!
at least ann romney doesn't have a fat butt. that's still, apparently, fair game and an unpardonable sin in a first lady.
-mike
____________________________________
http://utoronto.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
vitus979
Apr 17, 12 7:19
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [iron_mike]
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I have no problem with various social safety nets. I just object when the need for those safety nets is used to rationalize universal "solutions" that sweep everyone up in them, needed or wanted or not.
What I find offensive here is the charge that needing that social safety net, or using it, is inherently lacking in dignity, and that joining the commercial labor force, no matter what one's individual circumstances are, is the only path to regaining one's dignity.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
iron_mike
Apr 17, 12 7:25
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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believe me, i'm totally with you on that one. i think spending the cash on making it easier for babies to be born into happy, healthy families is a very smart investment that pays huge dividends. i've got some swedish friends starting a family now, and they're looking at 400 paid days off . . . per child. they're not welfare bums, they're both doctorates. but the benefits structure allows them to spend more time as a family, raising their child. that's priceless and all the data i've seen says it pays off in a tonne of different areas.
i really do think there's value in work outside the home, and dignity in it too. but it's not the only work, and to take for granted that it is, is a big problem. i think you should instead start from a place of believing in the importance the family (however that family looks) and try to facilitate decisions that support the family.
-mike
____________________________________
http://utoronto.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan
http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
sphere
Apr 17, 12 7:28
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Re: So I'm watching the Daily Show . . . [vitus979]
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It's that "regardless of whether or not you have young children" bit that bugs me, and the notion that mothers of those children can find dignity in leaving those kids in daycare to go off to join the labor force.
Again, he's not prescribing this in a vacuum, and he's not talking about acquiring dignity by passing off the kids. He's talking about the dignity of self-sufficiency for those who are capable, and regardless of how important the job of parenting is, staying home with children doesn't get anyone off welfare, and weaning people from welfare and launching them to a place of self-sufficiency is the primary stated function of TANF.
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Dignity, I suppose, that is somehow lacking if they stay home, even on government assistance, to raise their children in the early years of their lives.
This is the gotcha interpretation that one can extrapolate, absent the context of the larger conversation, that I was referring to. Yes, you can read it that way if you choose, but I don't think that's really what he was getting at, any more than was Rosen in her comments about Ann never working a day in her life.
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I sometimes think you have more of a Puritanical ethic than you realize. This is one of those times. Dependency on others is not obviously and necessarily undignified.
No, it's not inherently undignified for those incapable of caring for themselves. For those capable, yes, I think it is, and I think people receiving assistance from their fellow citizens bear an obligation to minimize or eliminate their dependency as quickly as possible. As for my ethic, yes, I've always had a strong work ethic. It's how I'm wired. But as for my position on TANF, I think it's as moderate and mainstream as it gets. The far left/permissive view would attach no work requirements to welfare, and the far right would eliminate welfare almost entirely. I think TANF strikes the perfect balance, in that it provides a means for citizens in unfortunate circumstances to become self-sufficient in a reasonable amount of time, and that providing day care assistance is an essential part of it. It's not as if poor women are the only ones utilizing day care, either, so it's not some draconian punitive measure that tears apart poor families for the sake of feeding the economy.
"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine
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