Legal advice: Re: Paypal (Page 6): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Bike Shops Coaches Fitters Race Calendar Running Stores Store Stack & Reach Training Log Triathlon Clubs We Noticed
		MAIN INDEX	RULES & LEGEND	LOG IN

Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Legal advice: Re: Paypal

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All

Alfalfameister

Apr 13, 12 14:29

Post #126 of 138 (1338 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [packetloss] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I agree that once Paypal says the transaction is completed, then it should be "completed".

The OP got that (i.e., the "completed" transaction); then he received the money into his Paypal account, and therefore was able to WITHDRAW the money. Then he gets a chargeback?!? I'd say, Paypal's fault. Heck, Paypal already gave him the money, and now wants it back.

Besides, this "verified shipping address" thing... what if nothing was shipped? What if, say, it was software that was downloaded? Or someone sending a journalist an exclusive image of the US and Russian presidents (both male) making out? Or whatever...?

We keep blaming the OP, and I understand that such culpability has merit in it. But, let's not also forget, that he is also a victim here, and that there's a thief out there on the loose (whose address, "apparently", is a seminary, haha!).

~C

Apr 13, 12 14:47

Post #127 of 138 (1331 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [packetloss] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

If you went to a brick and mortar and purchased something using a credit card, and then disputed it, I would almost guarantee the same thing would happen.

The credit card processor is never going to be the one left holding the bag.

If a merchant is defrauded by a stolen credit card and even if they do due diligence by check id (fake id's etc) have signed receipt and it is disputed, again the credit card processor will not be left holding the bag. The merchant will end up eating the cost. This is figured into the cost of doing business for large retailers. They figure on a certain perctange of their sales being fraudulent and just jack prices for everyone else accordingly.

It just hurts when its a mom and pop operation or an individual as is this case.

Again though the credit card processor will not be left holding the back. It will always be charged back to the merchant.

Bell Head

Apr 13, 12 16:30

Post #128 of 138 (1309 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Alfalfameister] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Alfalfameister wrote:

The OP got that (i.e., the "completed" transaction); then he received the money into his Paypal account, and therefore was able to WITHDRAW the money. Then he gets a chargeback?!? I'd say, Paypal's fault. Heck, Paypal already gave him the money, and now wants it back.

If they had to abide by those rules, then they would sit on the money for a few months just to make sure the charge wasn't challenged. Would you prefer that?

I don't mean to be sticking up for big, bad PayPal, but there are risks in all transactions. All you can do is try to minimize the risk, and making sure the address is verified, staying within the ebay structure, etc. minimizes those risks. If you don't take steps to protect yourself then you only have yourself to blame. And sometimes, unfortunately, even when people do everything you can to minimize the risk they still get burned, but at least then you can point the finger at paypal/ebay.
================================
blog
twitter

Aust1227

Apr 13, 12 17:22

Post #129 of 138 (1282 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Bell Head] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Certainly the OP can take his customs form as proof of theft, and file a claim with his homeowners insurance...

Wait... What???

The item was only claimed for $150 in order to avoid customs???

Pretty tough to feel bad for the OP in this story.

mistergomez

Apr 13, 12 17:55

Post #130 of 138 (1262 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Alfalfameister] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Go read the Paypal forums on this. Other people have raised this and the people from Paypal explain that
Its "completed" means the funds were moved from one account to another, from the buyer's account to paypal. It doesn't mean the rest of their rights or actions for this including charging back, just conclusively disappear. Paypal isn't "waiving" their rights in the contract the Paypal user agreed to, by telling you "completed" when funds go from A to B.

The paypal user signs the agreement.

If we don't like this, then don't sign it.

==================

4.4 Risk of Reversals, Chargebacks and Claims. When you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason. This means that, in addition to any other liability, you will be responsible for the amount of the payment sent by the sender, plus the applicable Fees listed in Section 8 (Fees) of this Agreement if you lose a Claim or a Chargeback, or if there is a Reversal of the payment. You agree to allow PayPal to recover any amounts due to PayPal by debiting your Balance. If there are insufficient funds in your Balance to cover your liability, you agree to reimburse PayPal through other means. If a sender of a payment files a Chargeback, the credit card issuer, not PayPal, will determine who wins the Chargeback.

=================

Now, the way I read the agreement and maybe this is derived from the EFTA, I think there are limitations periods for chargebacks Paypal imposes for credit card theft and its something to the effect of 30 days from the date a credit card statement was sent to the credit card holder who was defrauded. Read Paypal about the length of time the credit card company has to do a chargeback on paypal. Surely there is an online merchant here who can confirm this.

Thomas Gerlach

Apr 13, 12 23:18

Post #131 of 138 (1195 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [packetloss] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

If someone submits a fraudulent claim to their CC then that is a whole other issue. I haven't ever been a part of that but I can imagine there are lots of checks and balances in this process as well. In addition, this is one more reason to play in the "eco-system". When you sell on ebay you generally have a pretty good idea of what type of buyers you are dealing with. There are always going to be loopholes out there that people will find ways to wiggle thru but the system has more checks and balances than the typical in-person transaction. This same thing happened many years back with identity theft - people complained their identity was stolen from the Internet when in reality is was the waiter/waitress at the local watering hole, or the nurse at the hospital. As for the transaction at hand, well there were all kinds of red flags. As a seller I would have walked from the scenario and I wouldn't have been in this process in the first place.

My Items For Sale On ST | My Weekly Training Update | Save 15% at Trisports.com with Coupon Code TGERLACH | Save 10% on "FreeSpeed" at Atomic with Coupon Code TG-10

mcmetal

Apr 15, 12 8:17

Post #132 of 138 (1112 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [mistergomez] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

mistergomez wrote:

The paypal user signs the agreement.

If we don't like this, then don't sign it.

==================

Like I said, they provide no protection for a seller. A transaction is never truly complete even after you have gotten your money out and they don't do any due dilligence when taking a credit card. What's to like about that?

Bell Head

Apr 15, 12 9:40

Post #133 of 138 (1077 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [packetloss] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

packetloss wrote:

What sort of due diligence are they supposed to do? How is anybody to know that the CC was stolen until the owner of the card reports a fraudulent purchase? Oh, I know, by providing a verified address.

In this particular case, I suggest the OP was negligent in doing their own due diligence.
================================
blog
twitter

(This post was edited by Bell Head on Apr 15, 12 10:10)

mcmetal

Apr 15, 12 13:56

Post #134 of 138 (1020 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Bell Head] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Bell Head wrote:

packetloss wrote:

That is my point exactly. If a credit card can pass authorization so easily and if in all such cases of fraud it falls on the retailer, then there is 0 confidence in credit cards. If paypal can't determine if it's legit and neither can the clearing agent, then how do you expect the retailer to know the card is legit? When accepting a paypal payment, you have no clue if the buyer funded it with a credit card, let alone if it was stolen, then why should anyone accept payal and pay their fees?

Hindsight is 20/20. It's easy for everyone here to sit and judge the OP after he got ripped off. Yes, there were some signs, but once the paypal transfer had cleared it probably didn't look that suspicious.

SavageHouck

Apr 15, 12 14:56

Post #135 of 138 (1000 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [packetloss] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I haven't looked at the PayPal UI recently enough, doesn't PayPal make it clear if the buyer has a verified account or not?

Nasrettin Hoca

May 11, 12 12:14

Post #136 of 138 (842 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I also have a Paypal Question.

I've been buying stuff for a few years. Everything has been fine. I pay off my Credit card monthly, the merchandise arrives, it's all nice - happy - happy. The bike I bought 2 years ago was even better than I'd expected. No issues.

Suddenly, Paypal decides I've hit my "spending limit" of 10 grand. They want to "link" to my Bank Account. My account is frozen I can't buy anything. The name of a certain country in Africa comes to mind. I don't get it.

So I'm asking, is this legit?

(This post was edited by Nasrettin Hoca on May 11, 12 12:17)

Acsp34

May 11, 12 13:34

Post #137 of 138 (789 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Nasrettin Hoca] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Yes, I ran into the same thing a couple of years ago. I just opened an account at my local credit union for the sole purpose of linking it to Paypal

Burnt Toast

May 11, 12 13:40

Post #138 of 138 (783 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Acsp34] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Acsp34 wrote:

Yes, I ran into the same thing a couple of years ago. I just opened an account at my local credit union for the sole purpose of linking it to Paypal

Thats what I did too. I keep the minimum amount of monies in it that my credit union requires. I've instructed the credit union to deny overdrafts. That way if the account gets hacked, they get a few dollars and thats it.

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All