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Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ...

 

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Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 10:27

Post #1 of 38 (3781 views)
Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... Quote | Reply

caveat - I know these are pedestrian numbers (go ahead, ridicule away), its the unexplained rate of change that is confounding. I'm wondering if I am going to burn out or hurt myself or if something is just starting to click. I really dont know.

I started running regularly in 2008. I started riding regularly in 2009. Aside from injury time outs, my training has been pretty consistent 30-50 miles per week, more towards 30 over the winter, more towards 50 over the summer. My weight has been really steady over this time period and while my run pace has been pretty consistent over the last 4 years, I do have to say I have been getting stronger on the bike.

My half marathon PR history is:
10/2009: 1:51:00
11/2011: 1:50:30

I ran regularly over the winter laying the base for a HIM planned in June (I've already got a couple under my belt)

What I cant explain is this -- a 6 minute improvement over my PR @ a well below threshold level of intensity, but more than that a 14 minute improvement over just a month earlier:

Race (half marathon) at the end of February:
Conditions: RACE
Temperature: 35 degrees
Elevation Gain: +158 ft
Chronic Fatigue Level: Tapered and Rested (Coggan TSB: +18)
Acute Fatigue Level: 7 hours of sleep
Body Weight: 219
Avg HR: ~160 (172, 1 mi LTHR)
Time: 1:58:00

Random 14 mile Training Run 3/31/12
Conditions: Training Run
Temperature: 35 degrees
Elevation Gain: +408 ft
Chronic Fatigue Level: Fatigued - (PR'd a 10k 3 days prior, 20 min TT @ local bike shop 2 days prior, rest 1 day prior (Coggan TSB: -30)
Acute Fatigue Level: 5 Hours of sleep
Body Weight: 218
Avg HR: 155 (172, 1 mi LTHR)
Time: 1:44:22 (for 13.1 miles of it)

So again, I know these are pedestrian numbers, but its unexplained rate of change that is confounding. Am I going to burn out? or hurt myself? or is something just starting to click? Has anyone else experienced these kinds of breakouts before?

Thanks in advance for the perspective


- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder

(This post was edited by Big-Pete on Apr 16, 12 19:21)


roadracer618

Apr 5, 12 10:55

Post #2 of 38 (3673 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey Big Pete,

First let me say congrats. That's awesome.

To be honest I can't comment on the specifics/science of your question.

Consistency I would say is a big part of your success. Gaining strength and staying heathy are also key.

Good luck.


JT_Dennen

Apr 5, 12 11:09

Post #3 of 38 (3608 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Consistency is key. How tall are you? Cause if you're running 50 mpw plus doing other things you must be eating a cow a day to keep that much weight on. I feel like you'd be crushing dreams if you dropped below 180!


lightheir

Apr 5, 12 11:20

Post #4 of 38 (3540 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How old are you? If you're 55+, ok, that looks fine.

I actually think that your near 2-hr times for HM are quite soft for someone with 2+yrs of running, and good voluem at 30-50mpw. If you're older than 55, ok, I'll give you a break, but if you're in your 30-40s, you should definitely be 1:4x or lower (likely lower) at 30-50mpw if you have appropriate speedwork in there, even at your clyde bodyweight.

So I think your improving PRs are a product of continued progress with training, but even moreso, a reflection of a soft old PR.


timboricki

Apr 5, 12 11:28

Post #5 of 38 (3497 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe you had a crappy day at your race and a great day on your training run?

What time of day were each of these runs?
What about your pre-race and in-race nutrition / hydration? (Maybe at the race, since there was an aid station every few miles, you stopped to grab something and it slowed you down).
Did you stop to take a piss? Fix your shoe? Hug a spectator?
Were you sick at all leading up to the February race? (I always catch a cold in January).


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 11:31

Post #6 of 38 (3482 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [JustinD] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm 6'3" and I do have a bunch of extra weight -- I like to say that I have a weight problem with an offsetting exercise problem. I would love to drop weight, but I eat my BMR worth of calories throughout the day (if I dont, I turn ravenous at about 8PM and over eat by a lot) and generally replace what I burn from my exercise session (otherwise I turn ravenous about 1.5 hrs afterward and over eat by a lot ... are you seeing a trend here).

I could theoretically get to 180 if I had the discipline, but I feel like I burn all of the discipline trying to build fitness and trying not to overeat. I was 6'3" and 185 exiting high school -- no endurance events - only played lacrosse and focused on seeing how much I could bench (typical). In college, still no endurance, played rugby so the emphasis turned to seeing how much I could bench AND squat. I was 205 and could bench and squat several age groupers. After college, got married, had kids, ballooned up to 265 for 10 years until the beginning of 2008 when I started running. Been b/w 215 and 225 since my first marathon in October of 2008. Solid back of the pack age grouper and middle of the pack Clydesdale ... this new found foot speed should help change that (and allow me to burn more calories).

Regardless, I have been doing NO weight work ... following a TrainingPeaks generic plan concocted by the virtual coach with run intensities suggested by people here on ST and bike work home grown based on Training and Racing with a Power Meter. But this has been consistent throughout the fall and winter and doesnt explain the sudden pop of speed/fitness etc. like I said, confounding and I want to make sure that I know what I am doing right so that I can keep doing it.

PS - there has been no POP in bike power along with the run pace improvement ...
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


gnorv

Apr 5, 12 11:31

Post #7 of 38 (3482 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Big-Pete wrote:
caveat - I know these are pedestrian numbers (go ahead, ridicule away), its the unexplained rate of change that is confounding. I'm wondering if I am going to burn out or hurt myself or if something is just starting to click. I really dont know.

I started running regularly in 2008. I started riding regularly in 2009. Aside from injury time outs, my training has been pretty consistent 30-50 miles per week, more towards 30 over the winter, more towards 50 over the summer. My weight has been really steady over this time period and while my run pace has been pretty consistent over the last 4 years, I do have to say I have been getting stronger on the bike.

My half marathon PR history is:
10/2009: 1:51:00
11/2011: 1:50:30

I ran regularly over the winter laying the base for a HIM planned in June (I've already got a couple under my belt)

What I cant explain is this -- a 6 minute improvement over my PR @ a well below threshold level of intensity, but more than that a 14 minute improvement over just a month earlier:

Race (half marathon) at the end of February:
Conditions: RACE
Temperature: 35 degrees
Elevation Gain: +158 ft
Chronic Fatigue Level: Tapered and Rested (Friel TSB: +18)
Acute Fatigue Level: 7 hours of sleep
Body Weight: 219
Avg HR: ~160 (172, 1 mi LTHR)
Time: 1:58:00

Random 14 mile Training Run 3/31/12
Conditions: Training Run
Temperature: 35 degrees
Elevation Gain: +408 ft
Chronic Fatigue Level: Fatigued - (PR'd a 10k 3 days prior, 20 min TT @ local bike shop 2 days prior, rest 1 day prior (Friel TSB: -30)
Acute Fatigue Level: 5 Hours of sleep
Body Weight: 218
Avg HR: 155 (172, 1 mi LTHR)
Time: 1:44:22 (for 13.1 miles of it)

So again, I know these are pedestrian numbers, but its unexplained rate of change that is confounding. Am I going to burn out? or hurt myself? or is something just starting to click? Has anyone else experienced these kinds of breakouts before?

Thanks in advance for the perspective


I had a college teammate that was throwing 82 MPH in the 1st - 3rd innings on game his freshman year.......came out in the 4th inning throwing 92 MPH.


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 11:36

Post #8 of 38 (3441 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [lightheir] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

36. agreed they are soft PRs, but they were PR's based on all out threshold efforts. so regardless of the base, they were all out (as referenced by the HR as a measure of effort). And you're right. If I didnt eat so damn much, I'd be faster ... but that isnt the variable in this case. No speedowork -- just tempo based intensity. I've felt like I wanted to focus on getting a volume base of fitness through mileage, rather than beating myself up with speedwork. Having said that, I do tons of speedwork on the bike.
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 11:42

Post #9 of 38 (3395 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [timboricki] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

timboricki wrote:
Maybe you had a crappy day at your race and a great day on your training run?

What time of day were each of these runs?
What about your pre-race and in-race nutrition / hydration? (Maybe at the race, since there was an aid station every few miles, you stopped to grab something and it slowed you down).
Did you stop to take a piss? Fix your shoe? Hug a spectator?
Were you sick at all leading up to the February race? (I always catch a cold in January).

Both were early AM
Nutrition was nearly identical (I have the same breakfast every morning)
I was arguably less hydrated on the training run as I only brought 16 oz of water and 2 gus vs. 4 gus and ample water during the race - no walk stops at the water station and no piss, shoes or hugs or anything.
I negative split the race and was out of gas at the end. (again averaged (160-161 HR)
Wasnt sick before and never got sick after.

Coulda been a crappy run, which might explain the difference between my november PR and my feb race, but not the 7 minutes better than november and certainly not the reduced HR on that PR training run ...
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


phil combs

Apr 5, 12 12:20

Post #10 of 38 (3239 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have no input, just wanted to congratulate you on the big PR. That is a great improvement. Stay injury free and drop some weight and you will be sub 1:40 soon. Real soon. Like 10 pounds is all it would take soon.


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 12:29

Post #11 of 38 (3193 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [phil combs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks. Do you know how long I've been trying to lose that 10 lbs?
Now if I could drop the 10lbs and run a sub 1:40 as the 3rd leg of a half iron, I might just opt for lipo ...
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


G$

Apr 5, 12 12:42

Post #12 of 38 (3130 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
I was 205 and could bench and squat several age groupers.

Lol!


BayAreaUser

Apr 5, 12 12:43

Post #13 of 38 (3126 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [phil combs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

phil combs wrote:
I have no input, just wanted to congratulate you on the big PR. That is a great improvement. Stay injury free and drop some weight and you will be sub 1:40 soon. Real soon. Like 10 pounds is all it would take soon.

.


lightheir

Apr 5, 12 13:05

Post #14 of 38 (3040 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Big-Pete wrote:
36. agreed they are soft PRs, but they were PR's based on all out threshold efforts. so regardless of the base, they were all out (as referenced by the HR as a measure of effort). And you're right. If I didnt eat so damn much, I'd be faster ... but that isnt the variable in this case. No speedowork -- just tempo based intensity. I've felt like I wanted to focus on getting a volume base of fitness through mileage, rather than beating myself up with speedwork. Having said that, I do tons of speedwork on the bike.

If you actually are running 30-50 miles per week, you're missing out big time on speedwork, which thus makes your PRs 'soft'.

You need to at least throw in some faster than threshold intervals in there, at lactate or VO2 intensity.

Bike speedwork unfortunately does NOT translate to running speedwork, sadly enough. You nee the neuromuscular recruitment in the fast leg turnover in running which biking doesn't give you - doesn't matter if you can generate 350 watts for tempo on the bike - you won't be able to run fast unless you train it.

While yes, there is an injury risk with speedowkr, it's dramatically lowered with your run experience as well as your good run volume, which is more than adequate for all-out speedwork. It gets dicier at 15mpw or less, but even so, with a good background and steady buildup, I find that even I can throw down 6 x 800s all out without injury. (It's the single 1 x 400 or 1 x800 or shorter all-out that'll really beat me up and strain things.)


beebs

Apr 5, 12 13:55

Post #15 of 38 (2870 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

4 gel packs for a HM is pretty extreme... Don't know if that would play into the difference in HR (caffeine), but it just seems like too much.


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 14:39

Post #16 of 38 (2779 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [beebs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe, but Only 2 were caffeine and don't forget, I'm 220 and was planning on being out there for 2 hrs. That alone has me burning upwards of 1800 calories.
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


beebs

Apr 5, 12 15:23

Post #17 of 38 (2681 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You could probably store that much glycogen in your muscles and liver, so there's not as much of a need to try and replace calories burned during a half marathon. But if it works to keep you going then stick to it. As your time decreases, you may not be able to stomach as much so keep that in mind.


lightheir

Apr 5, 12 15:42

Post #18 of 38 (2639 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [beebs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

beebs wrote:
You could probably store that much glycogen in your muscles and liver, so there's not as much of a need to try and replace calories burned during a half marathon. But if it works to keep you going then stick to it. As your time decreases, you may not be able to stomach as much so keep that in mind.

Agree. You should NOT be slowing due to lack of calories in any way in a HM, even at a 2hr or even a 2:30 pace. (At 3hrs, ok, you should be taking those gels just in case.)

Pop just 1 gel, or just use the on-course gatorade which will have enough calories. You are NOT trying to equalize that calorie deficit in a HM, or even a marathon. (In an IM, you should try to keep that gap closed, even at the cost of early speed, though since it's a long day.)


vertical_doug

Apr 5, 12 16:16

Post #19 of 38 (2581 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Big-Pete wrote:
Thanks. Do you know how long I've been trying to lose that 10 lbs?
Now if I could drop the 10lbs and run a sub 1:40 as the 3rd leg of a half iron, I might just opt for lipo ...

Have you tried a food log along with your mileage log? If you start tracking your food in a log, you quickly realize how many empty calories those little snacks have. I had a oreo habit, but after logging those into trainingpeaks once or twice, I felt like such a moron, I kicked the habit. There are probably a few little things in your diet you can tweak and be there. The quickest path to improvement is leaning out.


mojozenmaster

Apr 5, 12 16:38

Post #20 of 38 (2516 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

1:44 is not a soft PR for a big dude like you. That;s moving. I ran a 1:38 @210lbs and I thought that was fast. If you can get yourself to 200lbs without getting injured you'll demolish that 1:44 for sure!!


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**


Big-Pete

Apr 5, 12 17:16

Post #21 of 38 (2430 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [vertical_doug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

vertical_doug wrote:
Big-Pete wrote:
Thanks. Do you know how long I've been trying to lose that 10 lbs?
Now if I could drop the 10lbs and run a sub 1:40 as the 3rd leg of a half iron, I might just opt for lipo ...


Have you tried a food log along with your mileage log? If you start tracking your food in a log, you quickly realize how many empty calories those little snacks have. I had a oreo habit, but after logging those into trainingpeaks once or twice, I felt like such a moron, I kicked the habit. There are probably a few little things in your diet you can tweak and be there. The quickest path to improvement is leaning out.

Actually, I'm on that plan right now. I have about 10 apples and bananas sitting on my window sill at work for when I'm hungry.
I have the same thing for breakfast and lunch everyday so that I cant make bad decisions in the heat of the hunger moment
Post workout, I will usually just drink choco milk (tm) or accelerade and then if its a hard workout I'll keep downing the protein and carbs in the first hour -- i"m usually close to a net neutral on calories post workout.

Bottom line: I dont eat crap, I just eat a lot of non-crap.
- Pete


Luckily my over eating disorder is offset by my over exercising disorder


Allie

Apr 5, 12 17:25

Post #22 of 38 (2414 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sometimes you just have a great run, sometimes not.
It doesn't always have to point to one big thing but can be a culmination if little things that you may not even consider.

shoes? socks? sunshine? wind? allergies?

More elevation means more downhills which means more speed. I find I run faster on hills than flats because my hamstrings are weaker and fatigue faster than my quads do. Hills keep my legs fresher during a race and really 400+ feet still isn't terribly hilly (for where I am), but it was hillier than the race. FWIW, I have always done better when I do a short intense effort just before a race week. I do not do well with a taper, my legs are like lead.
My PR's are pedestrian as well but then again, I don't really like running :)


Grant.Reuter

Apr 5, 12 17:29

Post #23 of 38 (2404 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sometimes you just run faster. I did two half marathon's down in Disney back to back on almost no training because of school. The first one I jogged just so I really didn't die the next day, but we walked around the parks another 10 hours so I was pretty nuked. I think I got 2 or 3 hours of sleep and then went out and ran 1:37ish, which is by far the best I've ran in a half. There is no way I could have done that the day before, I just happened to be on that Sunday. If you race long enough you'll have days like that, ones you'll be like what the hell happened I felt fine and other where you'll go where did that just come from.

Also, without getting into the GPS argument were both done with GPS, I'm guessing yes with the GPS but courses can be off. Nationals was off on the run one year by a half a mile not that it mattered it was the same year we got to do a swimming treadmill in the river, I really didn't care by the run haha.
-----------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon


Dooayne Tries

Apr 5, 12 17:39

Post #24 of 38 (2369 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Grant.Reuter] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i think you must be on HGH for that improvement. great job man and keep it up. drop a few more pounds and keep going strong in training. only good things to come. good luck
Call of Duty


rcmioga

Apr 5, 12 17:48

Post #25 of 38 (2342 views)
Re: Unless someone is slipping me HGH, I dont know whats going on here ... [Big-Pete] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

my experience has been that when its too good to be true its too good to be true--poor distance measurement?


Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com)

Someday I won't be able to do this, but today is not that day!

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