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Swimming Improvement

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duffman

Apr 4, 12 9:33

Post #51 of 71 (1144 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [klehner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

your n=1 is an extreme outlier methinks :)

It's harder to spot bad position than some sort of technical flaw in the pull--that's why I think beginning swimmers should do lots of kicking, to figure out the correct position. It's like a drill.
__________________________

Oh yeah!

FLA Jill

Apr 4, 12 9:57

Post #52 of 71 (1130 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [klehner] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

"If you need a hard kick to keep your hips up, you've got a body position problem"- that would be me.

One other thing I was thinking about at the pool today- if someone has been a long term fish, it's not just technique they pick up. They're also getting some long term muscle-joint-tendon adaptations that can stick around even when you've been out of the pool for a long time. Sitting in a comfy chair or sofa, put your feet up on the ottoman/coffee table and have them feel relaxed.

What do they look like? If you're a heavily active fish (Ken excluded) you've probably got the toe point of a prima ballerina. If you're a former fish who swims barely enough to come out of the water FOP or even a former fish who hasn't really swum hard for years, then odds are that your comfortable still has a whole bunch of toe point compared to entirely land-based humans.

Same thing goes on with shoulder flexibility, barring injury. I know I don't have the shoulder movement I did when I was swimming a lot of butterfly, but it's still significantly more than a typical non-fish.

ericmulk

Apr 4, 12 20:18

Post #53 of 71 (1062 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [FLA Jill] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I've always had the shoulder flexibility and a strong pull but have never been able to point my toes very well. On the other hand, I can kick and swim breaststroke pretty well, as my foot stance is just naturally somewhat outwards, rather than pigeon-toed as many swimmers are.

Also, on your previous post about how "anyone" can make AA times with hard work and good coaching, I think AA is a bit of a stretch for "anyone". Currently the AA times for 17-18 yr old boys and girls are 5:04.5 and 5:30.6, the achievement of which takes a bit of natural talent IMO. I'd say the B standards of 6:10.6 and 6:42.4 are more realistic goals for your average ability to below-average ability 17-18 yr olds.

My perception is that many people on ST (not just you) have a bit of a skewed view of what the "average" person can do. It seems obvious that some people learn to swim fast easily, just as some run fast from the start, and yet another sub-set can just bike like hell but can't swim or run for their lives. Another sub-set is not even on ST because they have no athletic ability and/or interest at all.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

ericmulk

Apr 4, 12 21:04

Post #54 of 71 (1040 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [lightheir] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

lightheir wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

So after body position what is it that gives the 4:30 guys their speed?

I will not dispute that my body position could be better because I do swim faster in a wetsuit. That said I don't think there's much low hanging fruit with my body position.

\

"I swim slower with a pull buoy by a few sec/100."

This one sentence says volumes alone, since most guys are at least as fast if not faster with the PB than without. Now I know this assertion is going to draw a lot of debate but notice I said "as fast or faster" not just flat faster. Seriously, if you can't go as fast with the PB as you do when swimming full stroke, then you need to do a lot of swimming with the PB and also with PB and paddles. I believe this will improve your pulling strength and your speed dramatically. Pull until your arms ache, then rest a bit and pull some more. Get out when you can't pull another 50, literally.

Several coaches have ok'd my body position. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's patently false to think raising my legs by 1/2 an inch will drop 20 sec off my 1:40 pace. Similarly, even improving my catch will not likely to help - just look at my turnover (which is the fastest I can go without dragging th elbow) and it'll be very clear that I do not have the strength/endurance to go 1:20 for long. (Like barely 1 lap, if even.) This isn't a matter of technique - in fact, with an improved high elbow catch than what I have now, it should DECREASE my stroke rate as I pull a larger volume of water.

I've been looking for the magic fix that'll give me a 20sec/100 improvement , or heck even a 5sec improvement/100 with just technique, but after 2 years of trying, with advice from experts, I'm convinced it's no longer there. It was when I was 2:00/100, but I simply am not gifted enough to go no effort at sub 1:40/100.

Seriously for all you fish, if the legs are high, and the stroke isn't totally off-base, what would give that sort of improvement with technique?

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

ShoMyOFace

Apr 5, 12 4:15

Post #55 of 71 (1008 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [bmas] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The two beat kick that you mention in not a bad thing, and a six beat kick is probably not the correct thing. What you are looking for a an efficient kick that provides stabilization for the rest of the stroke to build a good body position - the only way you can do this is via kick drills. I suspect, based on your comments, that you do minimal, if any kick sets during workouts. Next workout, answer Duffman's question about how fast can you kick 100yards and report back (tired legs or not).

One other question: what you do pull sets, do you use a band to hold your ankles together and stop any "kick". As you 100 times are similar to sets without, I doubt it. Try this exercise with an old innertube, it will give you a new perspective on what your arms and legs are doing.

http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

cmscat50

Apr 5, 12 5:39

Post #56 of 71 (981 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [duffman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Today's 100 scy kick was ...... wait for it.... 2:43...LOL...

So this was off my 2 x 20 from yesterday, but still no way I can go 2:00. This was with a kick board. Maybe using a board my body position is all out of whack. I'm sure I have very tight runner's ankles as well. I've never really been taught how to properly use a board if there is even such a technique.

2:43 has to be painfully slow though. Again my T pace is 1:24. I believe I can go about 1:10 for 100 all out. I've swam 1:15's in the middle of a workout, but never a stand alone 100.

Kenney

Apr 5, 12 6:48

Post #57 of 71 (962 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [ericmulk] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Almost all pure swimmers are slower with a pull bouy. Its triathletes that are as fast or faster

FLA Jill

Apr 5, 12 6:59

Post #58 of 71 (950 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [Kenney] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Kenney wrote:

Almost all pure swimmers are slower with a pull bouy. Its triathletes that are as fast or faster

That's my experience as well. I thought I'd wandered into bizarroland when I got into tris and people were talking about how it's perfectly normal for pulling with a buoy to be faster than just swimming.

jasondubose

Apr 5, 12 7:06

Post #59 of 71 (944 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [FLA Jill] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

you make a point about the flexibility. my shoulders are extremely flexible, to the point that I went to crossfit workouts a while back and everyone was disgusted with my flexibility.

Of course I thought it was normal because all the people i'd been stretching with on a daily basis were at least as flexible as me

-Jason
______________________________________________
My wife just bought a bike. 2013 is the best year ever.

(This post was edited by jasondubose on Apr 5, 12 7:07)

jasondubose

Apr 5, 12 7:18

Post #60 of 71 (933 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [cmscat50] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

DOOOD, there's your problem right there! That's a pretty good swimming pace considering what you have to work with right now in the way of a kick, IMO.

Just a thought on kickboards: I've found that kickboards lack something for me now, maybe because my form deteriorated a bit after college, but i feel like i get more bang for my buck going without; basically laying on my side, one arm up, kick for 5-10 seconds on one side, switch to the other. I just found i was able to kick with a board fairly quickly and inadvertently negate the real "feel" of kicking while actually swimming-which is ultimately the only thing I really care about. Not saying that's the magic fix but it's a thought.

-Jason
______________________________________________
My wife just bought a bike. 2013 is the best year ever.

cmscat50

Apr 5, 12 7:22

Post #61 of 71 (925 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [jasondubose] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'm not sure the relavance of the following statement, but.......

This was a full on flutter type kick (6 beat hard type effort). When I swim free I only 2 beat. So the actual forward propulsion I get from my 2 beat kick has to be almost zero. But are we looking for forward propulsion from a kick in distance swimming? I don't know.

jasondubose

Apr 5, 12 7:38

Post #62 of 71 (910 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [cmscat50] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

cmscat50 wrote:

I guess FLAJill would disagree with me according to someone else's post, so i'll tread lightly here... but my kick helps me keep my legs up and i'm not looking for propulsion at steady state in a race and rotate my body to a lesser extent. the first 200? sure i'm looking for a boost. if someone's on my feet? yup. but once i'm chugging along it's ,. It sounds like THUMP thump thump every stroke as i'm moving, and is just to keep my body in a position or orientation I want, and maybe give a few more % speed.

The other day my coach had me put a band around my ankle and swim 50's... my feet SUNK, and i was just bashing the water maybe going 1:20/50m whereas i'd normally be 35-40/50m, so it definitely provides useful elevation for me.

Another example is swimming with shoes. I do not partake of this activity, but the senior level kids at my club do. They kick pretty slowly with shoes and a kickboard, but whenever they go to swim, it's just as much of a disaster... i mean i'm BLOWING by the 4:32 and 4:37 kids (no shoes on me)... so to extrapolate that to you and i: even though you don't need a lot of kick for propulsion, it still appears that an efficient kick makes a big difference in swimming speed. I'll follow up with the coach on this one as well.

-Jason
______________________________________________
My wife just bought a bike. 2013 is the best year ever.

duffman

Apr 5, 12 7:44

Post #63 of 71 (904 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [cmscat50] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

cmscat50 wrote:

As I mentioned before, you get lots of strong opinions both ways on kick sets. Here's the deal. If you:

a. have reached a high level of swimming proficiency
b. are very crunched for swim time
c. are not interested in improving you sprint pace

then kick sets are a waste of time. However, since you can only go 2:43 for 100 kick, I submit that you are doing something wrong. I have a terrible toe point but I can kick almost twice as fast as you do. That's because I have good position. By working on kicking, you will naturally improve you position and your swim speed will improve. You obviously have some natural talent to go as fast as you do with technical issues. You look at a guy like klehner, yeah he's a great swimmer without a kick, but he was able to figure out position so it doesn't matter. I bet if you add a 500 yd kick set to your workouts you will see your swim times drop. Just look through the fish threads, almost everyone does some kicking.
__________________________

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Jayhox

Apr 5, 12 8:29

Post #64 of 71 (880 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [VO2Matt] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

VO2Matt wrote:

I'm a consistent 1:40 swimmer. By that, I mean if my strength is holding enough to maintain my form, I can swim at least at that pace. Once I tire enough that my form falls apart, then it's an exponential decay and I'm back to 2:10's.

Stop swimming the butterfly and switch over to freestyle.
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Rock Chalk!

FLA Jill

Apr 5, 12 9:09

Post #65 of 71 (857 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [jasondubose] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Effective swimming is more than the sum of its parts, and if you put fish level development hours into the sport, you can end up developing workarounds for what would normally be severe flaws in technique.

But in general, (and there are always going to be a few exceptions to the rule and all) the people who come up with those workarounds do so because they're adapting their strokes and themselves in very high volume & high stress conditions, not in a situation where 12K counts as a big swim week.

uncle_evan

Apr 5, 12 9:43

Post #66 of 71 (836 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [FLA Jill] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

kick sets with fins or not ?

Im a 1;40/100m swimmer now, (was 1;48 in december) i can do intervals in the 1;32 range with 30 second rest. my shoulders are not flexible and my kick stinks... but my swim has improved time wise.. big time... I just dont know where to go from here..?
____________________________________________________
DOPERS SUCK

ericmulk

Apr 5, 12 9:43

Post #67 of 71 (836 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [Kenney] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I've always been a swimmer but never a good kicker except breaststroke. My breast kick times have always been faster than any other stroke. My impression over the years is that I'm not terribly unusual as there has always been a sub-set of swimmers whose only good events were breast. My feet and toes just naturally point outward.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

hiro11

Apr 5, 12 10:33

Post #68 of 71 (811 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [ericmulk] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'm a former collegiate swimmer (now 38 years old) and I can currently hold about a 1:10 pace over 4X500. That's pretty slow compared to what a reasonable high school swimmer can do. I did spend years going to swimming camps and started having my stroke videotaped and critiqued when I was about 11. I think I have good qualifications when it comes to knowing what constitutes a good stroke. IMO, you simply cannot swim fast unless you're swimming efficiently.

Without trying to be a jerk, I have to say most triathletes in my pool stand out like sore thumbs to me because they don't really know how to swim. The main technique problems I see are:
1. Wobbly head and resulting wobbly bodyline.
2. Insufficient rotation and excessively flat recovery.
3. Lack of extension out front.
4. Arms crossing over the body underwater.
5. Head recovery too dramatic and head held too high in the water.

There's lots of drills out there to tackle all of these problems. IMO, a good swimming workout should be at least 30% drills, probably more if you're a beginner. The best advice is probably to get videotaped and have someone who knows what they're talking about look at your stroke. They can help you devise a set of drills to fix problems.

To me, probably the most important metric to focus on in terms of proper technique is distance per stroke. Every swimmer benefits hugely from a focus on distance per stroke. Count your strokes and try to go further with each one. Alex Popov and Ian Thorpe (who in my opinion had the greatest freestyles of all time) both placed a huge focus on DPS. IMO, it's the acid test of a good freestyle.

Also, not technique, but it's very important to learn to do flip turns. This is true even for open water training. Flip turns are an essential part of fitness in swimming as they increase aerobic stress dramatically and there no better way to learn breath control.

happman23

Apr 5, 12 10:58

Post #69 of 71 (782 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [lightheir] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Quote:

I swim slower with a pull buoy by a few sec/100.

Several coaches have ok'd my body position. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's patently false to think raising my legs by 1/2 an inch will drop 20 sec off my 1:40 pace. Similarly, even improving my catch will not likely to help - just look at my turnover (which is the fastest I can go without dragging th eelbow) and it'll be very clear that I do not have the strenth/endurance to go 1:20 for long. (Like barely 1 lap, if even.) This isn't a matter of technique - in fact, with an improved high elbow catch than what I have now, it should DECREASE my stroke rate as I pull a larger volume of water.

I've been looking for the magic fix that'll give me a 20sec/100 improvement , or heck even a 5sec improvement/100 with just technique, but after 2 years of trying, with advice from experts, I'm convinced it's no longer there. It was when I was 2:00/100, but I simply am not gifted enough to go no effort at sub 1:40/100.

Seriously for all you fish, if the legs are high, and the stroke isn't totally off-base, what would give that sort of improvement with technique?

Rotation and reach. Watch a really good swimmer swim at (for them) an easy pace. Notice the long reach, power through the pull and the right amount of glide. I know triathletes don't like to hear that strength matters but it does. Especially in swimming. If you can grab and pull more water then you will go faster at the same stroke rate.

I agree with whoever said DPS is important. It is not the end all but if you can cover a distance in less strokes and not lose speed that is a good thing. And anybody that is faster with a pull bouy than without it has some flaw in their stroke or technique. Period.

ericmulk

Apr 5, 12 18:09

Post #70 of 71 (716 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [hiro11] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Actually, I swam in HS and my first 2 yrs at a D3 college. I take about 14-15 strokes/length on a 25 yd pool, do flip turns all the time, and the people who teach swimming at my club use my stroke as an example for people trying to learn to swim and/or improve. Triathletes have been advised to use my stroke as a role model, since I do triathlons as well as swim Masters. Also, several quite good D1 swimmers have told me that I have a really smooth stroke. I use a 2-beat kick most of the time, since I just never have had a very strong flutter kick. On the other hand, as I mentioned in one post above, I'm a natural breaststroker and can kick breast quite well. Thus, my swimming events were generally confined to distance free and breast. Since I can kick breast pretty well, I find it is the only stroke I can sprint fairly well.
"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

ShoMyOFace

Apr 6, 12 3:54

Post #71 of 71 (683 views)

Re: Swimming Improvement [duffman] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

duffman wrote:

cmscat50 wrote:

This.

To the OP - go back and read past swim posts (past three months) all talk about kicking. How about swimming, then runnning so you can focus on your weakness first?

http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/

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