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Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :(
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Ski racerz
Mar 31, 12 14:43
Post #1 of 97
(1777 views)
Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :(
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Jut one of many articles and stories of hate in the press in the last year; but this author is much more balanced than most;
http://www.ynetnews.com/...40,L-4210407,00.html
Quel
Mar 31, 12 15:17
Post #2 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Ski racerz]
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The author uses some pretty slim information to infer that jews all over Europe are are longer safe. I don't want to say it just doesn't exist, because ignoring it can be dangerous. But it's just slim.
Ski racerz
Mar 31, 12 15:25
Post #3 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Quel]
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His focus here is on Sweden, but if it wasn't so painful to go look at all the articles I've read, I would be happy to post a crapload of them here. Anti- semitism is polled regularly by the ADL across Europe and the current numbers of anti Israel/Jewish folks is increasing and disturbing to read about; here is part of one recent email I got:
ADL Survey In Ten European Countries Finds Anti-Semitism At Disturbingly High Levels
New York, NY, March 20, 2012 Anti-Semitic attitudes in ten European countries remain at "disturbingly high levels," according to a new poll from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) released today, with large swaths of the population subscribing to classical anti-Semitic notions such as Jews having too much power in business, being more loyal to Israel than their own country, or "talking too much" about what happened during the Holocaust.
Attitudes Toward Jews in Ten European Countries
(.pdf)
, an ADL opinion survey of 5,000 adults 500 in each of ten European countries revealed that pernicious anti-Semitic beliefs continue to be held by nearly one-third of those surveyed.
The poll was conducted between Jan. 2-31, 2012 in Austria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain and the United Kingdom. The survey has a margin of error of between +/- 4.43 and +/- 4.85, depending on the specific country.
"The survey is disturbing by the fact that anti-Semitism remains at high levels across the continent and infects many Europeans at a much higher level than we
see here
in the United States," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "In Hungary, Spain and Poland the numbers for anti-Semitic attitudes are literally off-the-charts and demand a serious response from political, civic and religious leaders."
In France, where a shooting at a Jewish school in Toulouse yesterday claimed the lives of three small children and a teacher, the overall level of anti-Semitism increased to
24 percent
of the population, an increase from 20 percent in a previous ADL poll conducted in 2009. In France,
45 percent
of respondents attributed the violence against European Jews to anti-Jewish feelings, an increase from 39 percent in 2009.
Other findings for France include:
45 percent
of the population responded "probably true" to the statement "Jews are more loyal to Israel than to this country;
35 percent
agreed that "Jews have too much power in the business world; and
35 percent
believe that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them during the Holocaust.
When asked for their opinion about anti-Semitic violence directed against Jews, and whether that violence is the result of anti-Jewish feelings as opposed to anti-Israel sentiment, overall,
39 percent
of Europeans responded that it was the result of anti-Jewish sentiments. "In France, you have a volatile mix," Mr. Foxman said. "France has seen an increase in the level of anti-Semitism. At the same time, more people today believe that violence directed against European Jews is fueled by anti-Jewish attitudes as opposed to anti-Israel sentiment. "Those increases are all the more disturbing in light of the shooting attack at the Jewish school in Toulouse."
In comparison with a similar ADL poll conducted in 2009, several of the countries showed dangerously high levels in the overall level of anti-Semitism, while other countries experienced more modest increases.
The overall findings among the countries for which comparison data is available:
·
Austria
experienced a slight decrease, to
28 percent
from 30 percent in 2009.
·
France
: The overall level of anti-Semitism increased to
24 percent
of the population, up from to 20 percent in 2009.
·
Germany
: Anti-Semitism increased by one percentage point, to
21 percent
of the population.
·
Hungary
: The level rose to
63 percent
of the population, compared with 47 percent in 2009;
·
Poland
: The number remained unchanged, with
48 percent
of the population showing deep-seated anti-Semitic attitudes.
·
S
pain:
Fifty-three percent (53%)
percent of the population, compared to 48 percent in 2009.
·
United Kingdom:
Anti-Semitic attitudes jumped to
17 percent
of the population, compared to 10 percent in 2009.
Country-by-Country Findings on Anti-Semitic Attitudes
In responding "probably true" to the statement, "Jews are more loyal to Israel" than their own country, the 2012 survey found:
Austria 47%, unchanged from 2009
France 45%, up from 38% in 2009
Germany 52%, down from 53% in 2009
Hungary 55%, up from 40% in 2009
Italy 61% in 2012
Netherlands 47% in 2012
Norway 58% in 2012
Poland 61%, down from 63% in 2009
Spain 72%, up from 64% in 2009
The United Kingdom 48%, up from 37% in 2009
In responding "probably true" to the statement, "Jews have too much power in the business world," the 2012 survey found:
Austria 30%, down from 36% in 2009
France 35%, up from 33% in 2009
Germany 22%, up from 21% in 2009
Hungary 73%, up from 67% in 2009
Italy 39% in 2012
The Netherlands 10% in 2012
Norway 21% in 2012
Poland 54%, down from 55% in 2009
Spain 60%, up from 56% in 2009
The United Kingdom 20%, up from 15% in 2009
In responding "probably true" to the statement "Jews have too much power in international financial markets," the 2012 survey found:
Austria 38%, up from 37% in 2009
France 29%, up from 27% in 2009
Germany 24%, up from 22% in 2009
Hungary 75%, up from 59% in 2009
Italy 43% in 2012
The Netherlands 17% in 2012
Norway -- 23% in 2012
Poland 54%, unchanged from 2009
Spain 67%, down from 74% in 2009
The United Kingdom 22%, up from 15% in 2009
In responding "probably true" to the statement, "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust," the 2012 survey found:
Austria 45%, down from 55% in 2009
France 35%, up from 33% in 2009
Germany 43%, down from 45% in 2009
Hungary 63%, up from 56% in 2009
Italy 48% in 2012
The Netherlands 31% in 2012
Norway 25% in 2012
Poland 53%, down from 55% in 2009
Spain 47%, up from 42% in 2009
The United Kingdom 24%, up from 20% in 2009
ADL commissioned First International Resources to conduct the survey. Fielded in Europe by Ipsos-Reid Public Affairs, it was conducted in the national language of each country. The margin of error is +/- 4.43 to +/- 4.85, depending on the specific country, at 95% level of confidence.
cerveloguy
Mar 31, 12 17:38
Post #4 of 97
(1678 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Ski racerz]
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"His focus here is on Sweden"
I haven't been to Sweden for many years, but it seems that Sweden is a very strange place in this regard IMHO. The Swedes seem to suffer a disproportinate "white man's guilt" and seem to take in anybody from the 3rd world claiming to be a "refugee" who wants to move there without giving a lot of thought to long term problems. They actually have one city alone that took in more Iraqui refugees than any other country in the world despite having absolutely no involvement in Iraq after 9/11. In the past couple of years they have been tightening up their refugee policies now that they are starting to realize that a country of nine million can't play mother to the world.
The city of Malmo in southern Sweden is now a Muslim majority in parts of the city and the Jews are being driven out. The current Malmo mayor has made several anti Israel/Jewish comments. Sweden accepted large numbers of Jews from other parts of Europe during WWII so its a bit strange that they're now allowing Muslims and neo Nazis to chase them out. From what I read recently many younger Swedish jews are now immigrating to Israel or North America.
You might find this article interesting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...tic-hate-crimes.html
(This post was
edited
by cerveloguy on Mar 31, 12 20:44)
AnthonyS
Mar 31, 12 18:04
Post #5 of 97
(1657 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Ski racerz]
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How closely is this related to Muslim immigration to Europe? In case you haven't noticed it's a priority of many Muslims to make sure every Jew is dead.
--------------------------------------------------------
You will remain the same person, before, during and after the race. So the result, no matter how important, will not define you. The journey is what matters. ~ Chrissie W.
cerveloguy
Mar 31, 12 18:08
Post #6 of 97
(1649 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [AnthonyS]
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"it's a priority of many Muslims to make sure every Jew is dead."
I'd say its a priority of a very small minority of Muslims. I would imagine there are some Jews that feel the same towards Muslims. Why can't we all learn to just get along.
Ski racerz
Apr 2, 12 20:49
Post #7 of 97
(1524 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [cerveloguy]
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cerveloguy wrote:
The city of Malmo in southern Sweden is now a Muslim majority in parts of the city and the Jews are being driven out. The current Malmo mayor has made several anti Israel/Jewish comments. Sweden accepted large numbers of Jews from other parts of Europe during WWII so its a bit strange that they're now allowing Muslims and neo Nazis to chase them out. From what I read recently many younger Swedish jews are now immigrating to Israel or North America.
You might find this article interesting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...tic-hate-crimes.html
Wow...this is from 2010 and paints a bleaker picture than I would have imagined in Sweden. I will tell you that from my viewpoint, the Jewish friends I have around the world are concerned for their families safety and there is probably a tiny minority (of our tiny minority) who take an offensive posture to the Muslims threatening them. Fortunately there is no visible threat at this point where I live although I could see that changing.
jwbeuk
Apr 2, 12 21:33
Post #8 of 97
(1502 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [cerveloguy]
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cerveloguy wrote:
"it's a priority of many Muslims to make sure every Jew is dead."
I'd say its a priority of a very small minority of Muslims.
I would imagine there are some Jews that feel the same towards Muslims. Why can't we all learn to just get along.
Seriously? How clueless are you? F ing amazing.
mojozenmaster
Apr 2, 12 22:08
Post #9 of 97
(1483 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [jwbeuk]
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How clueless are you?
He's a Canadian, which might help explain things better.....
**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
chainpin
Apr 2, 12 22:13
Post #10 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [jwbeuk]
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I wasn't even going to say a word.
"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06
Eppur si muove
Apr 3, 12 6:25
Post #11 of 97
(1429 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [jwbeuk]
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Eppur si muove
Apr 3, 12 6:27
Post #12 of 97
(1423 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [cerveloguy]
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I would imagine there are some Jews that feel the same towards Muslims.
You're saying you think there are some Jews for whom it's a priority to make sure every Muslim is dead?
I suppose that within a population of millions, you can find some weirdo who believes almost anything. Nevertheless, I think that's a very strange statement to make. Do you actually know of any Jews who have declared jihad on Islam?
NOTE: I originally accidentally responded with this post to the wrong person.
cerveloguy
Apr 3, 12 6:54
Post #13 of 97
(1408 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [jwbeuk]
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So you think every single Muslim on the planet is a potential terrorist? If so then I'm calling you out as a racist bigot. How many Muslims do you actually know?
There are definately Muslims who are very intent on destroying Israel (and the west), we are all very well aware of that, but to suggest that this is the majority of the 1.25 billion Muslims on the planet is ridiculous.
cerveloguy
Apr 3, 12 7:04
Post #14 of 97
(1396 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Eppur si muove]
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"Do you actually know of any Jews who have declared jihad on Islam?"
I made an off the cuff comment that there are probably some Jews who wish all Muslims were dead. I'm sure there are some Americans since 9/11 that feel the same way.
This is not a simple right/wrong issue. Its been a two way street. The Israeli army has commited lots of autrocities against Palistine civilians including women and children over the years just as much as PLO or Hammas has done the same against Iraeli citizens. Neither side can claim to be innocent and both have blame. I generally, support Israel btw, but also feel that the Palistinians have rights also.
chainpin
Apr 3, 12 7:07
Post #15 of 97
(1390 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [cerveloguy]
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cerveloguy wrote:
So you think every single Muslim on the planet is a potential terrorist? If so then I'm calling you out as a racist bigot. How many Muslims do you actually know?
There are definately Muslims who are very intent on destroying Israel (and the west), we are all very well aware of that, but to suggest that this is the majority of the 1.25 billion Muslims on the planet is ridiculous.
I guess you think these people are "moderate muslims" then right?
Sorry, but there is no such thing and you claim is complete bullshit, because these people you claim are "moderates" are viewed as apostates by the very religion they claim to follow.
You are either a muslim that believes in the literal word of allah, or you are an apostate:
"Either you are a Muslim who observes the 5 pillars of Islam and submit totally to Allah and accept that Muhammad is is messenger and that the Quran is the literal word of Allah or you are a non-Muslim, an apostate. There is no HALF-WAY-HOUSE in Islam. Read the Quran for proof.
Amil Imani, is an Iranian-American, who is now an ex-Muslim and writes about Islam. Amil says:
There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There is no such thing as secular Islam or a secular Muslim. Its the nature of the faith to deny any separation of religion and the state or religion and society. There are numerous sects within Islam. One and all are extremes and not in the least amenable to change. Keep in mind that Islam claims that it is the perfect eternal faith for mankind. Splits have occurred and will continue to occur in Islam. Yet, reformation has not happened in nearly 1400 years and is not going to happen. Islam is carved in granite, just the way it was. No change is possible. Allahs Quran is a sealed volume.
"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06
Rodred
Apr 3, 12 7:08
Post #16 of 97
(1385 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [cerveloguy]
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cerveloguy wrote:
"Do you actually know of any Jews who have declared jihad on Islam?"
I made an off the cuff comment that there are probably some Jews who wish all Muslims were dead. I'm sure there are some Americans since 9/11 that feel the same way.
This is not a simple right/wrong issue. Its been a two way street.
The Israeli army has commited lots of autrocities against Palistine civilians including women and children over the years just as much as PLO or Hammas has done the same against Iraeli citizens
. Neither side can claim to be innocent and both have blame. I generally, support Israel btw, but also feel that the Palistinians have rights also.
Utter bullshit.
Grab a dictionary and look up aggressor and terrorist. It seems you are clueless about what the PLO and Hammas has done over the years. Thats quite scary given your age and the fact that you lived through it. It's either a sign of ignorance or a conscious decision to ignore facts.
~
The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.
M.E.T.
Apr 3, 12 7:11
Post #17 of 97
(1381 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [chainpin]
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wow. just wow.
Next you'll be telling us that Catholics and Mormons aren't real Christians.
Quel
Apr 3, 12 7:16
Post #18 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Rodred]
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Rodred wrote:
Utter bullshit.
Grab a dictionary and look up aggressor and terrorist. It seems you are clueless about what the PLO and Hammas has done over the years. Thats quite scary given your age and the fact that you lived through it. It's either a sign of ignorance or a conscious decision to ignore facts.
It's pretty clear that far more Palestinians die from Israeli attacks than the other way around. Something like 5:1. Lots of civilian deaths on both sides. Let's not pretend that the Israeli's are a bunch of helpless persecuted people over there. They dish it out far better than they take it. It takes two to tango.
cerveloguy
Apr 3, 12 7:21
Post #19 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Ski racerz]
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Sweden has been an unusual case IMHO. They've always been a very tolerant society but some of the Muslims and even other refugees/immigrants that they've allowed in haven't been towards Swedish society in general. At the same time Sweden has allowed these people into the country in relatively large numbers in proportion to their population and then wonders why people coming from cultures so different don't suddenly adapt to Swedish culture and become Swedes.
Malmo is the worst case scenario. There are a couple of areas of the city that have become Muslim ghettos with a lot of festering anger among Muslim youth, many of whom are born in Sweden but find themselves shut out from mainstream society so vent their anger by throwing rocks at police cars or fire trucks whenever they enter their part of the city. There has also been several riots in recent years where buildings get set on fire, etc. Malmo had quite a number of Jews but many have been leaving the city because of aggression from the Muslims and also home grown neo nazi groups. The amount of neo nazis in Sweden is tiny and they're officially illegal, but they can be violent.
At the same time there has also been attacks on Muslims. A Swede on a bicycle was shooting Muslims with a home made silencer on a pistol a couple of years ago. Several Muslims were shot but none died but apparently mostly due to the faulty design of his silencer.
Like I posted, I haven't been to Malmo or Sweden for many years, so I'm sure its a different place from what I once knew.
(This post was
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chainpin
Apr 3, 12 7:25
Post #20 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [M.E.T.]
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M.E.T. wrote:
wow. just wow.
Next you'll be telling us that Catholics and Mormons aren't real Christians.
I don't have to tell you anything, the Islamic faith spells this out clearly.
There is no such thing as a moderate muslim.
The meaning behind the term 'moderate muslim' implies one can have a flexible interpretation regarding the word of allah--which in Islam is impossible.
The word of allah as it is written, is the literal word of god, so a moderate muslim by definition is a non-believer, or, infidel.
You can't claim to be muslim, but then only embrace parts of Islam that you like, or reject parts that are evil, it doesn't work that way.
Now, you may still call yourself a muslim if you please, but you are not one, you are an infidel, and a apostate, just as the koran spells it out.
The myth of the moderate muslim is just that, a myth.
Islamic tyrrany is captured and promoted through Sharia law, which is barbaric and disgusting, and at the heart of the islamic faith--if you disagree with any part or the whole of sharia, you are not a muslim, you are an infidel.
But I'm sure you would just argue sharia is really just "moderate sharia" right?
Now, please make the case that moderate muslim beliefs are ok under the word of allah.
Go ahead and try.
"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06
(This post was
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by chainpin on Apr 3, 12 7:32)
cerveloguy
Apr 3, 12 7:26
Post #21 of 97
(1362 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Rodred]
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Please read Quel's post.
Rodred
Apr 3, 12 7:35
Post #22 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Quel]
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Quel wrote:
Rodred wrote:
Utter bullshit.
Grab a dictionary and look up aggressor and terrorist. It seems you are clueless about what the PLO and Hammas has done over the years. Thats quite scary given your age and the fact that you lived through it. It's either a sign of ignorance or a conscious decision to ignore facts.
It's pretty clear that far more Palestinians die from Israeli attacks than the other way around. Something like 5:1. Lots of civilian deaths on both sides. Let's not pretend that the Israeli's are a bunch of helpless persecuted people over there. They dish it out far better than they take it. It takes two to tango.
You are not seriously comparing the PLO and Hamas and the tactics they use to a nation surrounded by enemies trying to protect itself are you?
Next you'll be trying to convince people that Arafat was just a misunderstood peace loving dude who crapped white doves.
~
The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.
LorenzoP
Apr 3, 12 7:36
Post #23 of 97
(1348 views)
Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Ski racerz]
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being anything anywhere kinda sucks
Quel
Apr 3, 12 7:43
Post #24 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Rodred]
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Rodred wrote:
You are not seriously comparing the PLO and Hamas and the tactics they use to a nation surrounded by enemies trying to protect itself are you?
Next you'll be trying to convince people that Arafat was just a misunderstood peace loving dude who crapped white doves.
And this is a perfect example of why nothing will ever get solved. A bunch of pro-Israel homers on one side, and a bunch of pro-Arab homers on the other. Neither side willing to acknowledge the simple fact that they are both fucked up in some way.
chainpin
Apr 3, 12 7:43
Post #25 of 97
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Re: Being Jewish in Europe is no longer safe (again) :( [Rodred]
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Rodred wrote:
Quel wrote:
Rodred wrote:
Utter bullshit.
Grab a dictionary and look up aggressor and terrorist. It seems you are clueless about what the PLO and Hammas has done over the years. Thats quite scary given your age and the fact that you lived through it. It's either a sign of ignorance or a conscious decision to ignore facts.
It's pretty clear that far more Palestinians die from Israeli attacks than the other way around. Something like 5:1. Lots of civilian deaths on both sides. Let's not pretend that the Israeli's are a bunch of helpless persecuted people over there. They dish it out far better than they take it. It takes two to tango.
You are not seriously comparing the PLO and Hamas and the tactics they use to a nation surrounded by enemies trying to protect itself are you?
Next you'll be trying to convince people that Arafat was just a misunderstood peace loving dude who crapped white doves.
He was a 'moderate' muslim--can't believe you didn't know that!
"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06
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The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
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