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Long run 15 days before marathon?
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kcb203
Mar 28, 12 7:41
Post #1 of 38
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Long run 15 days before marathon?
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I'm running a marathon on April 16 and had planned to run 20 miles this past weekend. But weather, a cold, and life got in the way. I tried to run 20 on Monday afternoon, but threw in the towel after 10 with a sore throat. I'm feeling better now.
My long runs so far have been 15 miles two times, 16 miles, and 19 miles (5 weeks before race day). I'm running about 35-40 miles/week. I usually recover pretty quickly. I'm not following any specific plan. I'm coming off a stress fracture in my shin last August and haven't done any speedwork in months apart from a recent 5k. This will be my fourth stand-alone marathon. I ran 3:13 in December 2010, but due to injuries and lack of motivation, am only planning on trying for 3:30 or so on April 16. My shin has been pain-free for about three months.
I'm registered for the Cherry Blossom 10 miler that will be 15 days before race day. I'm tempted to do this at long-run pace and then run home afterwards to get in a 20 miler. I could also try to run 20 on Thursday (tomorrow), or just skip the long run entirely and just do the race this weekend.
Is this all in my head? Should I forget about not running 20 and just start my taper? I've done two IMs in the last couple years, so I know how to suffer and just get it done, but I feel like I'm going in unprepared without a 20 miler under my belt. I've read that there's no physical benefit to be gained by training within three weeks of a race, but don't know how much science there is behind that.
snackchair
Mar 28, 12 8:07
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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There's nothing magical about running a 20 miler. What matters is your run volume over the last 6-12 months and the amount of work you've done at marathon pace.
I would recommend doing the race as a race, with warm-up and cool down you can get 15 in. I would keep your volume the same until the week of the race. You don't need to start tapering until the week of the marathon. Keep your volume consistent until then, then back way off the week of the race.
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karma
Mar 28, 12 8:08
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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19 miles 5 weeks out is plenty. If you really feel the need, just do it, but know that it may impact your performance two weeks later if recovery is not your strong suit. How well did you recover from the 19 miler? Is this proposed 20 on the same terrain or is it more challenging? What is the race day terrain? 35-40mpw is not a lot of volume and to go out and do 50% of your weekly volume in one run would be a red flag in my book. My first IM I trained conservatively and my longest run (in my life to that point) was a 19 miler. When I got to the mile 19 sign on the course, I had the energy to dance a jig around the sign in celebration. MANY of my fellow racers were not so spry. You also ellude to injuries, for that reason alone you may want to rethink your plan. I would go out and do the 10 miler at 10K - :20/mi pace and see if I could hold it, then go home and relax. YMMV.
Dave
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USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
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kcb203
Mar 28, 12 8:19
Post #4 of 38
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [karma]
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karma wrote:
19 miles 5 weeks out is plenty. If you really feel the need, just do it, but know that it may impact your performance two weeks later if recovery is not your strong suit. How well did you recover from the 19 miler? Is this proposed 20 on the same terrain or is it more challenging? What is the race day terrain? 35-40mpw is not a lot of volume and to go out and do 50% of your weekly volume in one run would be a red flag in my book. My first IM I trained conservatively and my longest run (in my life to that point) was a 19 miler. When I got to the mile 19 sign on the course, I had the energy to dance a jig around the sign in celebration. MANY of my fellow racers were not so spry. You also ellude to injuries, for that reason alone you may want to rethink your plan. I would go out and do the 10 miler at 10K - :20/mi pace and see if I could hold it, then go home and relax. YMMV.
Dave
My 19 miler was on a flat gravel path, and the marathon is Boston, so it's hilly and on asphalt. Most of my daily runs have been on very hilly packed dirt trails. I recovered fine from the 19 miler. Apart from the injury last summer, my recovery is generally pretty quick.
burnman
Mar 28, 12 8:27
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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At this point, you're trading off between your mental bank and your physical bank (since you don't have a whole lot to gain, physically, from another 20 miles). I can tell you that the rate of return is much better if you accept the work that you've done and focus on keeping your legs fresh and tuned over the next 2.5 weeks.
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masterslacker
Mar 28, 12 8:29
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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I'm running 18 this afternoon and another 18 miler next Wednesday before I start my taper for Boston. I'm not even doing a 20 miler and my max mileage will only be 42. My only benefit is I've maxed out at 18 miles for the last 2 Ironman's and my qualifying marathon as well. So I'm used to it...less is more.
Based on your goal and recent marathon time, you should be fine with just racing the Cherry Blossom. You'll get a real good tempo workout which will be great and easily can replace your last long run. Plus you've already got a 19 miler in...of course if you were trying to go sub 2:50 this advice would be a bit different so don't worry you'll be fine.
kcb203
Mar 28, 12 9:04
Post #7 of 38
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [masterslacker]
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Thanks for all the feedback. I'll race the 10 Miler and try to forget about the lack of a full 20. (My understanding is that the rest of the world has a 30k as the peak distance for most marathon plans, so I've at least done that.)
My concerns are mostly mental, probably because of a failed IM run last October in Kona. I had a lottery spot, and burned out miserably, partly due to lack of run training due to the injury, partly due to bad pacing, and part due to mental weakness. I was embarrased to "run" a 5:05 marathon nine months after a 3:13 stand-alone race.
morey000
Mar 28, 12 9:22
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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I'm trying to wrap my head around this. you've been to Kona, presumably done other IM distance races. Have run a 3:13 marathon and qualified for Boston...
and you're not sure if you should run 20mi 2 weeks out?
you clearly know your recent training load, ability to recover and risk of injury better than anyone on this forum could. I know what "I" would do in this situation, but I'd say that you know what's right for you better than any of us. you're clearly not new at this.
noofus
Mar 28, 12 9:34
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [morey000]
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morey000 wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. you've been to Kona, presumably done other IM distance races. Have run a 3:13 marathon and qualified for Boston...
and you're not sure if you should run 20mi 2 weeks out?
you clearly know your recent training load, ability to recover and risk of injury better than anyone on this forum could. I know what "I" would do in this situation, but I'd say that you know what's right for you better than any of us. you're clearly not new at this.
This... I cant imagine that anyone who is able to qualify for Boston cant figure out appropriate timing for the final long run, or if one is even needed?
siegfried08
Mar 28, 12 10:45
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [snackchair]
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snackchair wrote:
There's nothing magical about running a 20 miler. What matters is your run volume over the last 6-12 months and the amount of work you've done at marathon pace.
I would recommend doing the race as a race, with warm-up and cool down you can get 15 in. I would keep your volume the same until the week of the race. You don't need to start tapering until the week of the marathon. Keep your volume consistent until then, then back way off the week of the race.
What this guy said. With my own running, I see diminishing returns past ~2hrs, so I never go past 17 or 18...
If you've run 3:13, pacing a 3:30 will be breezy once you hit the race atmosphere.
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Macho Grande
Mar 28, 12 10:49
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [masterslacker]
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masterslacker wrote:
I'm running 18 this afternoon and another 18 miler next Wednesday before I start my taper for Boston. I'm not even doing a 20 miler and my max mileage will only be 42. My only benefit is I've maxed out at 18 miles for the last 2 Ironman's and my qualifying marathon as well. So I'm used to it...less is more.
THIS !
Perfect training plan. Seriously this is great.
Bob
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Printer86
Mar 28, 12 10:51
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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The confidence from racing a good 10 miler will trump one 20 mile jog. Go crush the 10 miler and use that experience to grind out the back end of your marathon. Good luck.
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MVM
Mar 28, 12 12:00
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [Printer86]
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I'd be a little worried about lingering soreness from racing a 10 miler two weeks out from a marathon. 20 mile training run leaves me empty but without the muscle damage of a 10mi race.
smarty
Mar 28, 12 15:12
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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No matter how you slice it, not the ideal way to head into a marathon, especially Boston. I love doing a 10 mile time trial several weeks out as one of my last hard efforts and also helps me assess race day pace. However, that off of at least 60+ miles/week and based on what you have indicated, I don't think you have enough volume to recover properly. I also don't think you have enough volume to absorb a 20 miler this close to race day. I would recommend doing a 14-16 mile long run mixing in some tempo miles, for example 4 easy + 3 threshold + 3 easy + 3 threshold + easy cool down. This is more of a Jack Daniels approach and allows you to get in some decent quality without breaking you down to much and shouldn't deplete you. Good luck
JoeO
Mar 28, 12 15:26
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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What exactly is long run pace? Is it marathon pace? I think you might do better to maybe do a 3 mile warmup, the 10 mile race at marathon race pace, 2 mile cooldown for 15 total.
JeffJ
Mar 28, 12 17:02
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [smarty]
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"I also don't think you have enough volume to absorb a 20 miler this close to race day."
+1
fordred
Mar 28, 12 18:18
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [JeffJ]
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Ya, it's time to ease the mileage so close to race day.
kcb203
Mar 28, 12 18:44
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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Thanks for all the replies. I think in my gut I knew doing a 20 miler isn't a good idea at this point, and it's helpful for the reassurance. I know it's all in my head.
natethomas
Mar 28, 12 19:13
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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I too am doing Boston, and my long run this weekend (well actually on Monday) will be 15. I did 22.6 this past weekend on the course, and my taper started this week. At this point, doing your longest run just two weeks out would not be a wise move. 20 is simply a nice round number that a lot of people shoot for. Time on your feet and quality of training vastly outweigh simply slogging through a 20 mile run simply to check it off the list.
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cervelorider
Mar 29, 12 12:25
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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Run Cherry Blossom at a pace of one minute a mile faster then what you want to do at Boston. No need to put in long junk miles at this point. Tim
charris
Mar 29, 12 12:51
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [noofus]
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noofus wrote:
morey000 wrote:
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. you've been to Kona, presumably done other IM distance races. Have run a 3:13 marathon and qualified for Boston...
and you're not sure if you should run 20mi 2 weeks out?
you clearly know your recent training load, ability to recover and risk of injury better than anyone on this forum could. I know what "I" would do in this situation, but I'd say that you know what's right for you better than any of us. you're clearly not new at this.
This... I cant imagine that anyone who is able to qualify for Boston cant figure out appropriate timing for the final long run, or if one is even needed?
I can't believe that a couple of random guys on an internet message forum can't understand that someone who is running Boston in less than 20 days is getting a little squirrely as the taper begins...
To the OP: you'll be fine without the 20 miler - you absolutely don't need it to run a good race. Could it help you? Possibly. Could it hurt you? Possibly (and slightly more likely). But you're not going to turn into a pumpkin either way. I'd warm up, do the 10 miler (and I wouldn't even try kill it), then cool down plus a bit extra if you're feeling good.
From this point on you should be in a "first, do no harm" mindset - hay is in the barn my friend.
Good luck and see you in Boston!
kcb203
Apr 1, 12 16:27
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [charris]
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Thanks for all the guidance. I had a great day at the Cherry Blossom 10 Miler--I ran 1:08:49 (6:53/mile), which is only 17 seconds off a PR. I haven't done any speedwork in 8 months and I'm five pounds heavier than when I did my PR, but it felt effortless today. My legs feel great 10 hours later. Unfortunately, I'm in better shape than I thought I was and now my Boston expectations have increased. I think I'll cruise at 8 min./mile and if I'm feeling good, let it loose the last 10k.
Bypasskid
Apr 1, 12 16:52
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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never ran a 20 miler before the marathon, and did 3:17 but again I am not that competitive
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Printer86
Apr 1, 12 19:27
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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Great job today. You probably don't need too much of a taper if you haven't beaten yourself down with mileage during the last 2 months. Just cut back the miles about 20% this week and another 20% during the week leading up to the race. And, have some fun on the 16th.
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knobjob
Apr 1, 12 19:48
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Re: Long run 15 days before marathon? [kcb203]
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I'm surprised by how many people are admonishing the idea of a 20-miler two weeks before a marathon - especially without discussion about what intensity that run might be.
I'm not saying a 20 miler is necessarily best, but the bottom line is that everyone is different. Some people do much better with an extremely short, very steep taper. Others need to layoff much earlier. To each, his own.
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