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404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv?
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Shane_W
Mar 20, 12 13:28
Post #1 of 56
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404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv?
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So I was talking to my LBS about ordering some 808 FC Zipp's for my newly purchased Shiv Pro. They got back to me later in the day saying that after speaking with the folks at Specialized - it turns out that the 404's were in fact more aero than the 808's on this bike. I didnt discuss the front wheel but I would not run an 808 front and 404 rear anyway. Seemed interesting and weird to me that this would be the case.
Maybe someone from Spesh can chime in? Anyone else heard of this?
-Shane
Quel
Mar 20, 12 13:34
Post #2 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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I haven't heard that. The Firecrest 404 is more aero than the old 808 IIRC. Maybe that's where the confusing is coming in?
Thomas Gerlach
Mar 20, 12 13:41
Post #3 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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I'm sure Jordan will chime in here but fwiw I really love the 404 FC front and I am thinking of running it more in the front this year than the 808 FC I typically use. It handles great in the turns and is very confidence inspiring to me in strong winds.
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Rappstar
Mar 20, 12 13:53
Post #4 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Quel]
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Quel wrote:
I haven't heard that. The Firecrest 404 is more aero than the old 808 IIRC. Maybe that's where the confusing is coming in?
That's my guess, but I'm checking in at the source...
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Shane_W
Mar 20, 12 16:42
Post #5 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Rappstar]
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Thanks Jordan - let us know what you find out. This was 404FC vs 808FC. So we are talking apples to apples for lack of a better term.
-Shane
Tom A.
Mar 20, 12 17:09
Post #6 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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Shane_W wrote:
Thanks Jordan - let us know what you find out. This was 404FC vs 808FC. So we are talking apples to apples for lack of a better term.
-Shane
Are you talking as a front wheel or as a front/rear set?...and if it's the latter, why not run a disc like you should ;-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Shane_W
Mar 20, 12 20:21
Post #7 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Tom A.]
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I was thinking of running an 808 set. I have never really considered a disc wheel to be honest - not really sure why! Hahaha
docfuel
Mar 20, 12 21:35
Post #8 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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The disc rear makes everything more stable. If your going to Kona it's a problem. If not, get the disc for the rear. (Or, a cover.)
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justkeepedaling
Mar 20, 12 21:55
Post #9 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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If this is true (I personally think they really are talking 404 FC vs old 808), than it likely would have to have something to do with clearance of the rim and chainstays to the rim profile
stabbin31
Mar 20, 12 23:42
Post #10 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [justkeepedaling]
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One of my LBS said the same thing. He went to a confrence where Specalized's "aero god" Mark Cote said the 404 was much more aero (not sure if it was only on the shiv) then the 808s. Thats why the are running that wheelset on the Shiv. It had something to do with the 404s catching holding and smoothing out the air better then the 8s. Fwiw.
justkeepedaling
Mar 21, 12 0:04
Post #11 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [stabbin31]
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If compared to the pre FC 808, yes.
stabbin31
Mar 21, 12 0:07
Post #12 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [justkeepedaling]
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Then why wouldnt they put the new 808s on the Shiv? Like I said, this came from Cote, Spec top aero guy. They did all the wind tunnel tests ect, and the 404s came out on top. Im sure this is blowing peoples minds, but it is what it is.
Steve Irwin
Mar 21, 12 4:19
Post #13 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [stabbin31]
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It wouldn't be that strange, really. If adding a big round water bottle to a frame can make it more aero, then adding a front wheel that is less aero in isolation can plausibly make the whole package more aero. There was an article a while back with Simon Smart describing the testing to develop the Enve wheels, where they found that the fastest wheel depends on which frame you're going to put it in.
jackmott
Mar 21, 12 4:25
Post #14 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [stabbin31]
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stabbin31 wrote:
Then why wouldnt they put the new 808s on the Shiv? Like I said, this came from Cote, Spec top aero guy. They did all the wind tunnel tests ect, and the 404s came out on top. Im sure this is blowing peoples minds, but it is what it is.
we are suggesting something may have been lost in translation. this happens sometimes, no big deal.
there are a lot of reasons you might 'put 404s' on the new shiv instead of 808s even if they are a wee bit slower.
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Shane_W
Mar 21, 12 7:26
Post #15 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [jackmott]
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Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding - I was talking 808FC vs 404FC when these discussions were taking place. We are not taking old 808 vs new FC 404.
bshack
Mar 21, 12 10:19
Post #16 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Shane_W]
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Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, Specialized has a higher profit margin on the top-of-the-line set up if they sell it with the cheaper 404's versus the 808's. They then sell the decision as one that maximizes aerodynamics...................or maybe I'm just a cynic.
Shane_W
Mar 21, 12 10:50
Post #17 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [bshack]
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I guess that is possible - but I would doubt it. They want their bike to be as fast as possible so I am sure they would recommend whichever wheel makes it fastest. Hopefully Jordan is able to find something out or someone in the "know" at Specialized can chime in.
Power13
Mar 21, 12 12:11
Post #18 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [bshack]
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bshack wrote:
Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, Specialized has a higher profit margin on the top-of-the-line set up if they sell it with the cheaper 404's versus the 808's. They then sell the decision as one that maximizes aerodynamics...................or maybe I'm just a cynic.
Sorry, but this is just a silly suggestion. In all my years doing product development and marketing in the bike biz, never once did I ever hear someone say "Hey, let's make stuff up so we can sell more of this model vs. another one."
Further, the logistics of this make no sense. It is not like they bring in amssive amounts of these bikes anyway and have them sitting around. The lead time is so long on high end bikes that for the most part, you get what you forecast and sell 'em. If you miss forecast a particular model / size/ coloe, you are usually screwed.
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QRNub
Mar 21, 12 12:36
Post #19 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [bshack]
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The only set up Specialized sells with Zipps has an MSRP of $12,700. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think a couple hundred more to cover the cost of 808's would be a deal breaker. I'm as cynical as they come, but I think this one is misguided.
jackmott
Mar 21, 12 12:38
Post #20 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [QRNub]
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QRNub wrote:
The only set up Specialized sells with Zipps has an MSRP of $12,700. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think a couple hundred more to cover the cost of 808's would be a deal breaker. I'm as cynical as they come, but I think this one is misguided.
the kind of clever guys that would buy a TT/Tri bike with a non disc zipp rear from the factory probably don't need to be riding around in aero bars with an 808 up front anyway ;)
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Shane_W
Mar 21, 12 12:41
Post #21 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [jackmott]
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Ouch!
BeastTri
Mar 23, 12 17:16
Post #22 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [Rappstar]
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any word yet from "the source"?
thePharaoh
Mar 23, 12 17:47
Post #23 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [BeastTri]
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I mentioned this before but people ridiculed me. is there any graph from Zipp that directly compares 404FC with 808FC?
NO why because 404FC is more faster. read this blog entry and see what you think. Looks like specialized have already figured it out.
"There is an interesting side story here, one which Zipp has conveniently avoided by clever use of comparisons... they've compared a FC 404 to 2010 808, and a FC 404 to 2010 404 and a FC808 to a 2010 808, but why not FC 404 to FC 808? The answer appears in the following graphic:
This graph shows a mixture of data from HED and Zipp and plots the FC 404 v the FC 808 directly against each other - what is clear is that the better wheel is probably the FC 404! Why? Because the wheels have almost identical drag down to 10 deg Yaw, and the FC 808 only manages a slight drag decrease to 15 deg yaw, and then the drag on the FC 808 rises significantly after 15 yaw because the wheel is stalling and starting to cause massive turbulence at that point. So the (pretty much) age old rule of deeper=better may not necessarily hold in Firecrest country, the FC 404 should perform almost the same as the 808, and once it gets windy, it performs significantly better than the FC 808. It will also probably cost a lot less than a FC 808 as well."
karl_a_hall
Mar 23, 12 18:05
Post #24 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [thePharaoh]
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Philosoraptor
Mar 23, 12 20:31
Post #25 of 56
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Re: 404's more Aero than 808's on the new Shiv? [thePharaoh]
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thePharaoh wrote:
I mentioned this before but people ridiculed me. is there any graph from Zipp that directly compares 404FC with 808FC?
NO why because 404FC is more faster. read this blog entry and see what you think. Looks like specialized have already figured it out.
"There is an interesting side story here, one which Zipp has conveniently avoided by clever use of comparisons... they've compared a FC 404 to 2010 808, and a FC 404 to 2010 404 and a FC808 to a 2010 808, but why not FC 404 to FC 808? The answer appears in the following graphic:
This graph shows a mixture of data from HED and Zipp and plots the FC 404 v the FC 808 directly against each other - what is clear is that the better wheel is probably the FC 404! Why? Because the wheels have almost identical drag down to 10 deg Yaw, and the FC 808 only manages a slight drag decrease to 15 deg yaw, and then the drag on the FC 808 rises significantly after 15 yaw because the wheel is stalling and starting to cause massive turbulence at that point. So the (pretty much) age old rule of deeper=better may not necessarily hold in Firecrest country, the FC 404 should perform almost the same as the 808, and once it gets windy, it performs significantly better than the FC 808. It will also probably cost a lot less than a FC 808 as well."
In that graph, there appears to be two listings for the H3, one is called H3, the other Zipp H3. Are these the same wheels just tested with different protocols? If so, why would one test so much poorer than the other? I ask because H3, at least for the front, is on my shortlist for new wheels next season.
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The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
Won't budge the needle
