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Lance Interview and wattage

 

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eelie

Mar 16, 12 11:54

Post #26 of 68 (3836 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

no accusations, just curious. someone tried to post that article to the forums and you/dan removed it?


Ryon

Mar 16, 12 12:04

Post #27 of 68 (3820 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [gregf83] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gregf83 wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Ryon, although the percentages change, what about the
absolute amounts?

Don't people actually burn a higher absolute amount of fat at LT as compared to lower levels, but the % is lower because the amount of Glycogen being used up increases at a faster rate?
Not addressed to me but I think this graph shows the relationship between the absolute rate of fat oxidation and power. I forgotten what %VO2Max corresponds to LT but I assume it is higher than 65%.



Thanks. This is the phenomenon I was referring to. Not all calories are equal, and the metabolic demands (and thus, re-fueling demands) can differ by intensity.

At FTP I go through ~1300 calories in an hour. Lance, probably more so. The greater the amount of glycogen used, the more risk to bonk. I guess what I am trying to say is, although lance might be racing well under his threshold or FTP, there's no way he could actually raise his power output as much as he implies. I'm basically calling his bluff.
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(This post was edited by Ryon on Mar 16, 12 12:05)


dongustav

Mar 16, 12 12:04

Post #28 of 68 (3819 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

that's all fair. I actually didnt do the math for the 16 & 15kph paces he talked about...

While I don't think using Lance's NY Marathon is a valid gauge of his current fitness & body comp, I'm in agreement that 2:37 and 2:48 being the "conservative" pace are a bit optimistic given the likely conditions in kona.


devashish_paul

Mar 16, 12 12:04

Post #29 of 68 (3824 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [wink] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

wink wrote:
One thing about Leito, he races to win. He puts himself out there to win, and often doesn't come out on top. I'd rather go out with a shot to win, than like every other runner saving himself for the run. I've raced Lance, he's a freaking machine. I have no doubt he can crush the bike and crush the run.


If we put the bike last and the run second, would you still say lieto races to win, or would you say he's dogging the run and pacing the run to strategically save enough energy to win on the bike. The reason I mention this is that we all tend to look at each leg in isolation. I'm not sure I would not say he races to win. When the field is a bit weaker, he gets away with this strategy. If we changed the order, I bet he runs a lot hard and perhaps bikes less hard and that's enough for the win, but he seems to think that he NEEDS to bike that hard. I doubt he'd race that way if the run came before the bike.

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(This post was edited by devashish_paul on Mar 16, 12 12:08)


eelie

Mar 16, 12 12:35

Post #30 of 68 (3752 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

devashish_paul wrote:
wink wrote:
One thing about Leito, he races to win. He puts himself out there to win, and often doesn't come out on top. I'd rather go out with a shot to win, than like every other runner saving himself for the run. I've raced Lance, he's a freaking machine. I have no doubt he can crush the bike and crush the run.


If we put the bike last and the run second, would you still say lieto races to win, or would you say he's dogging the run and pacing the run to strategically save enough energy to win on the bike. The reason I mention this is that we all tend to look at each leg in isolation. I'm not sure I would not say he races to win. When the field is a bit weaker, he gets away with this strategy. If we changed the order, I bet he runs a lot hard and perhaps bikes less hard and that's enough for the win, but he seems to think that he NEEDS to bike that hard. I doubt he'd race that way if the run came before the bike.

That's a hard comparison to make but it is very interesting. He'd absolutely run faster and probably have enough on the bike in that scenario to win. The problem is that by holding back a bit on the bike (with the run being last) I don't think he'd necessarily be any faster on the run. Those 7-12 minute leads off the bike in Kona will result in the same run IMO than if he had held back and came in with crowie. He's playing to his strengths.

I'm also sure he's thought about holding back. Either he's too stubborn to give it a try or he absolutely knows based on his training that it wouldn't make a difference.


camaleon

Mar 16, 12 12:53

Post #31 of 68 (3701 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Ryon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ryon wrote:
gregf83 wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Ryon, although the percentages change, what about the
absolute amounts?

Don't people actually burn a higher absolute amount of fat at LT as compared to lower levels, but the % is lower because the amount of Glycogen being used up increases at a faster rate?
Not addressed to me but I think this graph shows the relationship between the absolute rate of fat oxidation and power. I forgotten what %VO2Max corresponds to LT but I assume it is higher than 65%.



Thanks. This is the phenomenon I was referring to. Not all calories are equal, and the metabolic demands (and thus, re-fueling demands) can differ by intensity.

At FTP I go through ~1300 calories in an hour. Lance, probably more so. The greater the amount of glycogen used, the more risk to bonk. I guess what I am trying to say is, although lance might be racing well under his threshold or FTP, there's no way he could actually raise his power output as much as he implies. I'm basically calling his bluff.

I think he is talking about his projected new FTP (thru training) and not 50 more watts over his ***current*** FTP
----------------
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mrmoosey5

Mar 16, 12 13:12

Post #32 of 68 (3671 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [eelie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

X2

I know this isn't a popular view, but I go through phases where I don't visit the site because the censorship [deleted] me. [moderator's edit].
http://snappletriteam.com/

(This post was edited by Slowman on Mar 18, 12 7:30)


Travis R

Mar 16, 12 13:20

Post #33 of 68 (3644 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [camaleon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm curious if some of that 50 watts could be "made" by improving his position? He probably could go a little bit more aggressive than he did in Panama.


_______________________________________
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet." - Socrates


need4speed

Mar 16, 12 13:23

Post #34 of 68 (3632 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Travis R] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Travis R wrote:
I'm curious if some of that 50 watts could be "made" by improving his position? He probably could go a little bit more aggressive than he did in Panama.


Probably not on position/equipment alone for Hawaii because he will lose the disc.


Rappstar

Mar 16, 12 14:06

Post #35 of 68 (3543 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [eelie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

eelie wrote:
no accusations, just curious. someone tried to post that article to the forums and you/dan removed it?

Yes. Someone posted it in isolation - something along the lines of "Check out what Michael Ferrari has to say about Lance," and we removed it for two reasons - the first one is our general policy of not allowing posts that simply serve to drive traffic to another site - i.e. check out this link, and the second was that we really don't have any interest in promoting Ferrari, even in a second or third hand fashion. I'd refer you to this article Dan wrote, which I think hopefully might give some insight into what we try to do with regards to obeying a moral compass on this site - http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ith_a_View_2178.html

There are (at least) two sides to every story, but I think it's worth considering that the Italian Cycling Federation banned Ferrari for life from coaching. On a personal level, I was uncomfortable with our own articles on the front page about Brett Sutton, who has also been banned for life from coaching, by the Australians. I would not have chosen to run those articles, but Dan did, though I respectfully disagree with that choice.

We've never made an effort to prohibit talk of Brett Sutton on this forum, though we've certainly had to shut down many discussions that have inevitably devolved into those who believe his past transgressions should not be held against him and those who do. I - personally - see Ferrari and Sutton in different lights, and while I certainly would concede there is probably a lot to learn from each, I'd also say that neither is an individual that I feel comfortable promoting.Though perhaps it was inappropriate to simply remove the link to Ferrari's post. I don't know. I spoke with the person who linked the article, and he thought it a reasonable decision. Maybe it wasn't. I'm not sure. Dan, Herbert, and I make decisions that often seem right at the time. Doesn't mean they were, and it doesn't mean they are. But that was the thought process behind taking that link down when it first appeared.

I suppose it was inevitable that the article came up again, and we didn't want to get in the habit of deleting it every time it was referenced, but anyway...


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ninesixfour

Mar 16, 12 19:42

Post #36 of 68 (3326 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
Lance at panama:
41.49kph aka 2 hour 10 minutes

using some reasonable wild ass guesses as to his CDA/weight this would imply maybe something like 315 watts that he put out at panama

if he raised that to 365 his speed would increase to:

43.7kph aka 2 hours and 3 minutes


this assumes idealized windless, hill-less courses.
so he probably put out more than 315 watts. but the time difference would on the order of 7 minutes either way.


I doubt a 50w increase in his one hour power would translate into a 50w gain in his 2+ hour power.

There is a Competitor Radio podcast with Carmichael from a few years ago where he talks about Lance's comeback and how quickly his power went up after very little training so if he has indeed been slacking off on the bike he may well have a good bit still to gain.


(This post was edited by ninesixfour on Mar 16, 12 19:44)


Ex-cyclist

Mar 16, 12 20:01

Post #37 of 68 (3305 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Travis R] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Travis R wrote:
I'm curious if some of that 50 watts could be "made" by improving his position? He probably could go a little bit more aggressive than he did in Panama.


Several thousand dollars spent at the San Diego LSWT says he's probably ok with his position.


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JimmyRiccitello

Mar 16, 12 20:31

Post #38 of 68 (3260 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man, you think too much.
Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


Garc

Mar 16, 12 22:49

Post #39 of 68 (3153 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [JimmyRiccitello] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JimmyRiccitello wrote:
Man, you think too much.

Finally a voice of reason. Anyone who thinks Lance is going to Kona and embarrass himself by riding too hard/fast, etc. is crazy. He has nothing to prove by winning the bike leg.He will know exactly how hard to ride to optimize his ability to run off the bike--nothing more, nothing less. Rarely has there been an athlete who painstakinly attends to training and racing details as much as Lance has done. He will apply this same approach to his preparation for Kona. Lance is probably too old and inexperienced to be on the top podium step in Kona, but if he stays healthy he'll be in top 5.
Gary Clendenin (aka, "The Kid" or "G-man")


Trexlera

Mar 16, 12 23:36

Post #40 of 68 (3123 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan,
I agree with your reluctance to discuss Ferrari.
To be fair to the article, though, I think he's saying what it takes to win generally (e.g. the likely number of the winner), not that Lance can definitely knock out 2:40. The thought experiment proceeds from the winning time backwards.
I also agree that Lance doing that pace in Kona is hardly a given.


adal

Mar 17, 12 0:24

Post #41 of 68 (3116 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [trexleradam] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So the current assumption is, that Lance can process only so may carbs per hour, so he has to limit his biking to not deplete his fuel stores too much before the run.

I think this assumption misses an obvious point: Lance is a genetic freak and has money to support his needs. Maybe (I am speculating here) the powerbar ads of delivering more calories per hour actually work for Lance. Or maybe he can process 600-800 cal intake per hour. This would totally change the game and I think this is what will happen.


camaleon

Mar 17, 12 3:46

Post #42 of 68 (3025 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Garc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Garc wrote:
JimmyRiccitello wrote:
Man, you think too much.


Finally a voice of reason. Anyone who thinks Lance is going to Kona and embarrass himself by riding too hard/fast, etc. is crazy. He has nothing to prove by winning the bike leg.He will know exactly how hard to ride to optimize his ability to run off the bike--nothing more, nothing less. Rarely has there been an athlete who painstakinly attends to training and racing details as much as Lance has done. He will apply this same approach to his preparation for Kona. Lance is probably too old and inexperienced to be on the top podium step in Kona, but if he stays healthy he'll be in top 5.

this

I think that second place is the best thing that happened for him... That will fuel his fire to train harder

he is not half-in... He is going for the kill in Kona (IMO)
----------------
You'll learn when you're over your head you CAN dig deeper despite what your legs are telling you.


Tri or Die

Mar 17, 12 6:30

Post #43 of 68 (2879 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [camaleon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How many Lance posts/hits does ST now have?

...I think 68,000+ Anyway to find out?


dongustav

Mar 17, 12 7:01

Post #44 of 68 (2852 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [JimmyRiccitello] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cmon jimmy, post some more videos & pics from your man-cation w/ Lance. the one the other day was great.


btmoney

Mar 17, 12 7:22

Post #45 of 68 (2834 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Travis R] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Travis R wrote:
I'm curious if some of that 50 watts could be "made" by improving his position? He probably could go a little bit more aggressive than he did in Panama.

I'd say lance knows more about his position than most of us know about, well anything.
____________________________


Travis R

Mar 17, 12 8:32

Post #46 of 68 (2786 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [btmoney] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Oh yeah, no doubt. I do recall an interview with him before Panama (and, of course, I can't find it now to back up my point, so maybe I'm completely full of it... lol!) where he opted for comfort over aggressiveness. I guess I took that to imply that maybe he could get some more out of it. It could be 3 watts, for all I know. lol! The flipside is obviously more aero isn't necessarily great if it's too uncomfortable to hold it.

In my attempt to find that article again, I did find this one, which has some interesting comments from Steve Hed:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...s_Tri_Bike_2568.html

"He's not that low," Hed continued. "Lance has always been better aerodynamically if he doesn't go that low in front. He's really comfortable in that position. Also, real narrow elbows don't help him much."

So, I guess we can totally disregard my Monday morning aerodynamicisting. I meant to add something to the conversation, but totally screwed that up. Sorry, I didn't try to act like I knew better than him. I'm just naturally this dumb. lol!
_______________________________________
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btmoney

Mar 17, 12 8:54

Post #47 of 68 (2760 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Travis R] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Eh no worries. For 56 (and esp 112), I'd go for comfort over aggressiveness as well. This is especially important considering the run is his weakest leg.
____________________________


Rappstar

Mar 17, 12 10:14

Post #48 of 68 (2665 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [JimmyRiccitello] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JimmyRiccitello wrote:
Man, you think too much.

Thank you.


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bonesbrigade

Mar 17, 12 10:29

Post #49 of 68 (2638 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
JimmyRiccitello wrote:
Man, you think too much.

Thank you.

Funny, I read it as a compliment too!
_______________________________________________


severinj

Mar 17, 12 14:47

Post #50 of 68 (2511 views)
Re: Lance Interview and wattage [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well done.

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