Legal advice: Re: Paypal (Page 2): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Bike Shops Coaches Fitters Race Calendar Running Stores Store Stack & Reach Training Log Triathlon Clubs We Noticed
		MAIN INDEX	RULES & LEGEND	LOG IN

Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Legal advice: Re: Paypal

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All

Burnt Toast

Mar 14, 12 18:14

Post #26 of 138 (2532 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [rroof] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Thats the reason I NEVER ship outside of the US or buy on ebay from foreign contries. At least if it was in the US, you would have an address to start looking for the crooks and a local PD to contact.

realtalk411

Mar 14, 12 18:20

Post #27 of 138 (2526 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Livetotri wrote:

I had the item listed on eBay, buyer offered to pay outside to save fees.

Never ever! You won't have any protection if something goes wrong.

BrianB

Mar 14, 12 18:47

Post #28 of 138 (2486 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Burnt Toast] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Burnt Toast wrote:

True ... but the local PDs are likely not going to be able to do anything. Some years ago, I bought a saxophone for my son on eBay. The seller sent me a USPS tracking number. But after a week it didn't arrive. We went back and forth via email for a few days until I realized it was a scam. I got in touch with the local police (the person lived in Indiana) ... who then put me in touch with the state police as apparently this person was being investigated for a bunch of scams. But they basically said -- you're not going to get anything. And it seemed like they weren't even sure they could prosecute them. Too many other cases to deal with.

Now ... I had these fantasies of driving to Elkhart, IN and finding this person and ... Actually I still do, and it was like 9 years ago.

It's a shitty position to be in.

I had made the mistake of having a paypal balance, which they applied first. The rest then I used a credit card. I got back the credit card amount, but Paypal was absolutely useless. They had no interest at all in helping. I mean none.

The big lesson I learned there was to NEVER use a paypal balance or bank transfer to pay for anything. Always use a credit card. At least then you have some chance of getting money back if you are scammed.

~C

Mar 14, 12 18:54

Post #29 of 138 (2475 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

That sucks. As someone who has been a victim of stolen credit card info before though, I can understand relief when the credit card com acts properly. If I was the owner of the credit card I know I wouldnt want to have to eat the $3800

Isn't signing the customs receipt with a lower value in effect fraud in and of its self? I believe that is a legal affidavit. By intentionally falsifying the sales price to avoid duty is fraud in the strict sense. I know its a common practice. My wife owns a company that ships internationally and customers are constantly asking her to do that but she wont. It is asked so often she has but it at the top of her FAQ page.

I would have ask why should the credit card company or paypal have to eat the $3800 when the deal completely violated their terms of service? I dont think there is an recourse on that but to either pay the money back or take the hit on the credit. In the end they may settle for less than the $3850 if you can hold out and negotiate with them but that would be at their choice, they dont have to.

In this whole deal besides the thief who is the one who acted most irresponsibly? That is the person or entity that should have to eat the $3800. Then if that person or entity can recover from the thief by means of the law fantastic but given the value law enforcement is not even worried about it.

Paypal understand the fraud issues as they deal in this stuff every day. That's why their terms of service are there the way they are to protect them and to protect you.

But I know how it feels to be taken advantage of. Sorry about that. Really do hope it works out best for you.

MTRIB

Mar 14, 12 19:08

Post #30 of 138 (2455 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Was buyer: Mikedc848 ??
He bought my bike, exacly same story....but in the end, i decided to not ship
Let me know if its the same buyer and may be able to help you

Livetotri

Mar 14, 12 19:08

Post #31 of 138 (2452 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [MTRIB] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Nope, diff. guy: maxcogo: http://feedback.ebay.com/...ack&myworld=true

Various junk for sale

Eli Curt Fuld

ZackCapets

Mar 14, 12 19:20

Post #32 of 138 (2435 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'd like to buy the bike from you, but my accountant only writes checks for $5000 minimum. How about I'll just mail you the check, you can cash it and keep the selling price plus $200 for your troubles, and just send me back a check for the difference when you ship the item?
__________________________

I tweet! | TMS-IOS Has a brand new website! | Connect with TMS-IOS Elite on Facebook!

tri808

Mar 14, 12 19:41

Post #33 of 138 (2410 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

There are 3 main entities in a CC fraud. The customer (the rightful cardholder), the merchant (the one accepting the charge), and the CC bank (Chase, BoA, etc). The customer holds the most protection. The only way fraud is charged to them is if they were at fault for getting their card stolen. Such as if they willingly gave their card to a stranger...and then complain that they used it. The merchant has the next amount of protection. In order to be authorized to accept CCs, a merchant needs to agree to policies set forth by the CC associations (Visa, MasterCard, etc). Things like making sure the card isn't obviously fake, that customer signatures match, etc. So long as they follow these policies, they're off the hook and the CC bank eats the loss.

In this instance...I see the OP as part of the merchant with PayPal since he is the one receiving funds and delivering product. I'm going to "GUESS" that part of the policies that PayPal agreed to (to become a certified CC merchant) is that (PayPal and it's users) would only ship to confirmed addresses. Since this policy was violated, the CC bank is off the hook, and PayPal becomes liable. PayPal sees that the OP violated their policy, and then passes the charge to the OP.

So the OP has two courses of action to fight this. One, is prove that PayPal did not violate their policy agreement as a CC merchant. Thus proving that the PayPal (including the OP) did not break any policies agreed upon with the CC associations. Again, it was my "GUESS" above that such a policy to only ship to confirmed addresses was in place. If it was not, then maybe you can pin the charge back to the CC bank since you as a merchant did your due dilegence in the transaction. The problem is that you will need PayPal to fight for you. And the question is...why would they allocate one of their employees/lawyers time and money to do so? Maybe if the OP hired a lawyer or something, it might urge PayPal to push back to the CC bank (if that would make more sense than fighting the OP's lawyer)...but pushing the charge back to the OP is the easiest and cheapest solution in their mind.

The second option is to prove that you as a PayPal user are not responsible for the loss under PayPal's terms and conditions, and PayPal should eat the loss. This is an almost guaranteed losing battle since it's clear that you aren't supposed to ship to an unconfirmed address.

The third option is obviously to simply eat the loss due to some mistakes that many people also make. It sucks

kathy_caribe

Mar 14, 12 19:48

Post #34 of 138 (2395 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [triathlonshots] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

don't sell to Mexico either. It sucks but we have all our mail muled down. Sometimes MexPost works, but mostly it doesn't.
http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com

Sam Apoc

Mar 14, 12 19:50

Post #35 of 138 (2390 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [MSantos] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

MSantos wrote:

3. philippine - scam hot bed.

May I ask what's your basis for this?

I thought this was self evident and general knowledge. Do you also need the cliffs notes on Nigeria scams?

MSantos

Mar 14, 12 20:20

Post #36 of 138 (2349 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Sam Apoc] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

It's general knowledge because people are ignorant and filipinos make a bad name for themselves. It's a sad reality.

Cmikul

Mar 14, 12 20:29

Post #37 of 138 (2338 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Burnt Toast] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I have been burn so many times on eBay and with papal that I am to the point that I honestly do not care how much margin a brick & mortar store makes on me.

If I can walk in touch it. Leave with it. And go back and at least yell face to face with a real person then that is worth more to me than the delta I would have saved paying wholesale prices for it.

Seriously I lose all the money I save trying to get things straight.

MSantos

Mar 14, 12 20:37

Post #38 of 138 (2329 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Cmikul] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

From experience, eBay with PayPal usually offers a good amount of protection. Outside eBay, PayPal helps you for shit. It's their way of saying go through eBay or F-You. Their merger eliminates the checks and balances, at the expense of the customer.

TriBodyboarder

Mar 14, 12 21:31

Post #39 of 138 (2292 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [BrianB] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

BrianB wrote:

FYI, a few years ago, I posted about a situation my business had. We shipped merchandise to a freight forwarder from here in California to Laredo, TX. They sent us a check, which bounced. Numerous calls/emails back and forth where they promised to pay me, but never did got me frustrated. I threatened legal action. Someone here suggested contacting the local District Attorney in Laredo. I sent them a letter with evidence, and had a valid check in my hands in two weeks. I actually couldn't believe it worked! It was over $2,000!
------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com

TriBodyboarder

Mar 14, 12 21:33

Post #40 of 138 (2291 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'll assume it's way too late now, but in the future, if you've shipped via UPS or Fedex and the package hasn't actually be delivered yet, you can retrieve it in some cases. We've had a couple of cases at my business (I'm an online retailer) where fraud perpetrators slipped through the cracks, and we shipped the order, only to receive a chargeback, and were able to retrieve the shipment before it was delivered.
Unfortunately, for international shipments, you are still screwed for the outbound AND return shipping costs.
------------------
My business-eBodyboarding.com

7718

Mar 14, 12 21:53

Post #41 of 138 (2273 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

reading all of this, it seems like this incident could have happened to anyone selling something online who accepts paypal - the mistake being shipping to a non-verified address. take any bike shop that sells online and takes paypal. buyer contacts shop via email and pays for a bike via paypal/stolen CC. shop ships bike to unverified address. buyer/scammer receives bike. actual owner of CC refutes purchase. boom.

GREG_n_SD

Mar 14, 12 22:11

Post #42 of 138 (2258 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Livetotri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Bummer...sorry to hear about this Eli...hope it works out for you. I think the best advice I've seen is to try and stop the shipment.

LOADED ENERGY TRIATHLON TEAM or Like Us On Facebook and @LoadedEnergyTri on Twitter

cbire880

Mar 14, 12 22:38

Post #43 of 138 (2240 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [GREG_n_SD] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Just a thought, but I understand the transaction went like this:

1. Post on Ebay
2. Sell outside of Ebay via Paypal
3. Transaction funded on "buyers" Paypal account via a stolen credit card
4. Real credit card holder starts dispute and chargeback ensues

So where is PayPal's responsibility for verifying that the buyer's account is linked to a credit card that is verified to be theirs? Isn't there a possibility that Paypal didn't do their due diligence in accepting that funding source? You as the PayPal transaction have no idea how the buy is funding the transfer, correct? You just know its coming from PayPal.

Doesn't PayPay bear some liability in this case for allowing a user to fund their account with a stolen credit card? I'd agree that you are out the goods for not verifying shipment, but you had no way to know how the buyer was funding their paypal account.

Cmikul

Mar 14, 12 22:52

Post #44 of 138 (2235 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [cswim10] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

^^^^^^^^^^
speaks truth

btmoney

Mar 14, 12 23:45

Post #45 of 138 (2213 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [cbire880] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The shipping address was
1) not the "verified" address of the Paypal account
2) outside the US

So if I happened to live in the Philippines and stole a US citizens CC, I could easily insert their billing info and my separate shipping info. I don't know how the Filipino mail system works, but I'd bet that its less regulated than the US and I could have something delivered to my door no matter what name was on the package.

This sucks for you. I understand your desire to go outside of eBay to save a few hundred bucks. As an online seller, its a lot like medicine in that you have to practice CYA (cover your ass) in order to not get screwed. I'm a first year med student to I've yet to experience it but I've heard countless stories.
____________________________

cbire880

Mar 15, 12 2:06

Post #46 of 138 (2180 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [btmoney] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

What I'm still not understanding is how the seller has the responsibility to verify that the paypal funding source is legit? The seller doesn't know that the buyer is using a credit card, bank transfer, or paypal account funds. The seller only knows that the buyer is transferring the funds by paypal. Paypal exists to verify the that the funding source is legit then transfer those funds to a third party. They exist to prevent situations like this.

I agree that the seller was negligent for not shipping to a verified address, but isn't it paypal's responsibility to verify that authenticity of the funding source? The seller is trusting that paypal is doing its due diligence to verify the authenticity, much like I would at a point of sale by looking at the signature on the card. I'm confused as to how paypal bears no liability in this transaction.

footwerx

Mar 15, 12 2:15

Post #47 of 138 (2173 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [cbire880] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

no chance.

when you accept payment paypal states very clearly in the payment notification whether the address is verified or not.

so the seller definitely knew the address wasn't verified.

cbire880

Mar 15, 12 2:41

Post #48 of 138 (2164 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [footwerx] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Yup, you are screwed then.

triathlonshots

Mar 15, 12 2:47

Post #49 of 138 (2163 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [kathy_caribe] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

kathy_caribe wrote:

don't sell to Mexico either. It sucks but we have all our mail muled down. Sometimes MexPost works, but mostly it doesn't.

One important thing while using ebay is to check the buyers feedback. Make sure they have feedback from quite a number of different people and it should be pretty good feedback also.

I have had 2 parcels that didn't make it to Mexico out of 8, but still send there. Everytime the buyer says item not delivered paypal puts the money on hold and they always get there money back (plus the parcel I reckon).

I got ripped off sending a tri-suit to Malaysia a couple of times also. One was sort of funny as the buyer had a funny rhyming name. They bought an item then said they didn't get it and ebay gave their money back. A few weeks later the guys with a different name and exactly the same address bought and paid for another tri-suit. I am certain it was scam and that they would be getting their money back again. I sent them the usual email saying I sent it (but I didn't). They again said parcel not delivered and ebay put the money on hold then gave it back to them. I then contacted ebay and had copies of all the funny names and addresses and said look at this scam. Ebay gave them their money back and all i got was few computer generated replies. I phoned ebay in the USA from NZ and they listened but did nothing about it, that I know of.
Of course normally if someone buys and pays for an item and I don't trust it, then I just give their money back and the only costs I incur is the ebay seller fee. Which reminds me I have one like that at present but only $5usd and have had several in the past. Hey just checked and ebay gave my $5 buck back 5 days ago, nice.

I still sell a few items every week or so from the shop on my website using paypal also, and if people don't get the item I always give their money back (except for once to Malaysia funnily enough).

G.
www.TriathlonShots.com
http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.

(This post was edited by triathlonshots on Mar 15, 12 3:04)

campled

Mar 15, 12 3:25

Post #50 of 138 (2135 views)

Re: Legal advice: Re: Paypal [Sam Apoc] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Unfortunatley there are a few Fiipinos who give our country a bad name...
However I can assure you there are alot more of us who do good.
I have emails from different barristers, lawyers & heirs of all nations daily, but I never say its general knowledge of Nigeria, Indonesia, Ghana & what have you Kingdom.

1 2 3 4 5 6

View All