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Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM?

 

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njc

Feb 9, 12 18:50

Post #51 of 106 (5547 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [techknowgn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

'No, doping is why he won, the same reason all of the other top finishers won and are now on the way down.'

So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
The red mist in your eyes sure does make you write some rubbish.
We get it, you don't like him. And you obviously know stuff all about cycling.





stikman

Feb 9, 12 18:51

Post #52 of 106 (5546 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [triDVM] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How would Jordan's opinion be of any value at all? All of the questions you would like opinions on are complete no-brainers. Yes it will increase sponsorship (temporarily.) No it won't attract pros from other sports (did he attract them to cycling before?) It won't affect race strategy at all, just might make the train at the front slightly faster. Yes, it will drag the Lance associated manufacturer's. It won't greatly affect TV coverage but will increase news coverage. All pretty straight forward for anyone capable of forming an opinion themselves.


The only point where Rapp could possibly make a contribution is with regards to potential performance but as the only place where Lance is racing that anyone really cares about is Kona and Jordan runs scared from the place even that's of limited value. On second thoughts, the other IM is France which generally has a weak field and I reckon he has a fair bit of experience there so perhaps I'm wrong with my initial assessment.


Andrew69

Feb 9, 12 18:55

Post #53 of 106 (5537 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Sasquatch] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sasquatch wrote:
John Howard is his race strategist.
I doubt former Australian Prime Minister John Howard has too much to offer LA in regards to race strategy :-)

Crowie may be a little worried, but Pete Jacobs has the most to lose IMO.
Solid results the last couple of years at Kona, but still no big name sponsorship or profile.

Feel sorry for the guy. He is a class act in every sense of the word, and great guy to boot.
Hopefully everyone else will be running scared of LA while PJ runs his own race as usual and does really well.

Oh and LA is crap for the sport locally (in Oz) IMO.
All the local races sell out fast enough as it is, I dont want them to sell out any faster! :-)


techknowgn

Feb 9, 12 18:56

Post #54 of 106 (5529 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

njc wrote:
'No, doping is why he won, the same reason all of the other top finishers won and are now on the way down.'

So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
The red mist in your eyes sure does make you write some rubbish.
We get it, you don't like him. And you obviously know stuff all about cycling.



I believe he did the last two tours during the last cycling comeback clean. Maybe Im still wanting to be a bit naive but I do believe he's a good enough cyclist that at top form he could podium in a cleaner era even at advanced age (for a pro cyclist). According to his teammates, and again not just the ones who are "disgraced", Lance was doped for all of his tours. He didnt dope during the tour on a couple of occasions due to enhanced testing and big doping crackdowns, but he was still doping in all prep leading up to the race. Theres enough testimony to take away at least 5 of the tour wins. Its not rubbish, look at everyone else on the podium with him during those races. Nearly all have either admitted doping or been caught, banned or retired before being banned. His teammates who doped with and for him say he wasnt clean eaither, and they were there.

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.


Kenney

Feb 9, 12 19:05

Post #55 of 106 (5476 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

To..:So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
Who knows, but there is tons of evidence that he did. You kind of lose the "he might of been innocent some" when you meet with Ferrari in a van on the side of the road in the mountains. Hey, if you think the evidence out there does not add up, fine, thats your opinion, but there is plenty of testimonial and curcumstantial evidence.


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:07

Post #56 of 106 (5474 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [techknowgn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So what if then, just possibly, he ends up turning in a winning performance in a 70.3 or full IM, will you insist he is doping still?
Even if he passes every test ever thrown at him?
Sounds like the guy is never going to convince some people, which is fair enough, that he can race clean. Its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

But seriously, what does he need to do to make people say he may have just deserved to win?


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:08

Post #57 of 106 (5472 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Kenney] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Kenney wrote:
To..:So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
Who knows, but there is tons of evidence that he did. You kind of lose the "he might of been innocent some" when you meet with Ferrari in a van on the side of the road in the mountains. Hey, if you think the evidence out there does not add up, fine, thats your opinion, but there is plenty of testimonial and curcumstantial evidence.

Every race .... seriously ?


techknowgn

Feb 9, 12 19:11

Post #58 of 106 (5454 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

njc wrote:
Kenney wrote:
To..:So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
Who knows, but there is tons of evidence that he did. You kind of lose the "he might of been innocent some" when you meet with Ferrari in a van on the side of the road in the mountains. Hey, if you think the evidence out there does not add up, fine, thats your opinion, but there is plenty of testimonial and curcumstantial evidence.


Every race .... seriously ?

Think about what every race entails. Sure, he probably didnt dope when he first started, just like every other doper. I bet the first season or two were clean. Then, he gets on the dope to work his way up through the peloton, then he gets cancer. Are the two things related? A lot of doctors have theorized maybe. Anyways, he focused his season around the Tour, so even if he didnt dope in a couple of smaller races where the risk wasnt worth it, he was certainly doping in tour prep and whenever he could get away with it during the tour.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.


Kenney

Feb 9, 12 19:14

Post #59 of 106 (5440 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ah,, you cannot read.........I said "who knows". You can reread my post. Thats what happens when you are suspected. Which ones did he which ones did he not? There is a lot of evidence that he did in some......But, not found guilty yet by a court. ..Do I believe he did.....yes.....which race, which training day, I do not know. My bet is training build ups for the TdF. Some stages TdF, probably..Using a doped team for the TdF, certainly......Worlds in 93, I don't know. Many others I do not know.
Which races would you ward Marion Jones for racing clean? All or just some did she dope? She never tested positive.


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:15

Post #60 of 106 (5430 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [techknowgn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

techknowgn wrote:
njc wrote:
Kenney wrote:
To..:So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
Who knows, but there is tons of evidence that he did. You kind of lose the "he might of been innocent some" when you meet with Ferrari in a van on the side of the road in the mountains. Hey, if you think the evidence out there does not add up, fine, thats your opinion, but there is plenty of testimonial and curcumstantial evidence.


Every race .... seriously ?


Think about what every race entails. Sure, he probably didnt dope when he first started, just like every other doper. I bet the first season or two were clean. Then, he gets on the dope to work his way up through the peloton, then he gets cancer. Are the two things related? A lot of doctors have theorized maybe. Anyways, he focused his season around the Tour, so even if he didnt dope in a couple of smaller races where the risk wasnt worth it, he was certainly doping in tour prep and whenever he could get away with it during the tour.

So now his doping caused his cancer !!!
Well if you start believing that then there is very little point in discussing it with you.


BDoughtie

Feb 9, 12 19:19

Post #61 of 106 (5418 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Even if he passes every test ever thrown at him?

______________

My only issue with this reasoning, is that there are many guys in cycling (and other sports as well) that passed every test, yet they either were implicated in a doping scandel or admitted to doping. But, on the other hand, that's really the only defense one has to saying/implying that one is clean. I mean, if the test says your clean, you are in fact clean by the governing body (unless you get caught up in a scandel).

So I think IF everything is on the up and up, and you have clean tests, I would absolutely be fine with standing behind that validation. In the context of cycling, it doenst hold as much weight as it should. Which is sad, but I think a very true assessment, would you agree?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:22

Post #62 of 106 (5399 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Kenney] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Kenney wrote:
Ah,, you cannot read.........I said "who knows". You can reread my post. Thats what happens when you are suspected. Which ones did he which ones did he not? There is a lot of evidence that he did in some......But, not found guilty yet by a court. ..Do I believe he did.....yes.....which race, which training day, I do not know. My bet is training build ups for the TdF. Some stages TdF, probably..Using a doped team for the TdF, certainly......Worlds in 93, I don't know. Many others I do not know.
Which races would you ward Marion Jones for racing clean? All or just some did she dope? She never tested positive.

Actually I have excellent reading skills.
You of course know he would have been tested, regularly, in training as well as racing?
So now you say there is ‘evidence’ he was doped in some. But not all?
So I guess that means he might just have won the odd TDF clean?
Maybe?


techknowgn

Feb 9, 12 19:23

Post #63 of 106 (5392 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
Even if he passes every test ever thrown at him?

______________

My only issue with this reasoning, is that there are many guys in cycling (and other sports as well) that passed every test, yet they either were implicated in a doping scandel or admitted to doping. But, on the other hand, that's really the only defense one has to saying/implying that one is clean. I mean, if the test says your clean, you are in fact clean by the governing body (unless you get caught up in a scandel).

So I think IF everything is on the up and up, and you have clean tests, I would absolutely be fine with standing behind that validation. In the context of cycling, it doenst hold as much weight as it should. Which is sad, but I think a very true assessment, would you agree?

A bunch of the other ones got past every test and only got caught through admission or doing something stupid like meeting with Ferrari or other doping doctors regularly after they were being investigated. Lance still had Ferrari on his payroll like 2 years ago saying it was for "Ferraris son to make intervals up for him", when he had a ton of other coaches who could do that. Lance was buying silence pure and simple. Lance got away with it because he's Lance, he alternates between intimidation and influence to get through things that others cant.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.


techknowgn

Feb 9, 12 19:27

Post #64 of 106 (5367 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

njc wrote:
So now his doping caused his cancer !!!
Well if you start believing that then there is very little point in discussing it with you.

Im no doctor, but it can cause illnesses temporary and long term. No one really knows for sure everything it does to the body long term. Look at the folks who use HGH, compare Barry Bonds head size to 10 or 12 years ago. Its insane what the side effects are. I dont know if it caused the cancer or not.

To you other point, not doping during the race isnt riding clean. The real advantage of doping is doing it during training and in the days leading up to the race. And even during the "clean races" teammates testified he may have gotten transfusions they didnt witness because the equipment was still present.

Finally, multiple teammates have testified that he knew when the tests were coming so he could avoid them, or at least delay them enough to avoid detection when tested.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:30

Post #65 of 106 (5348 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
Even if he passes every test ever thrown at him?

______________

My only issue with this reasoning, is that there are many guys in cycling (and other sports as well) that passed every test, yet they either were implicated in a doping scandel or admitted to doping. But, on the other hand, that's really the only defense one has to saying/implying that one is clean. I mean, if the test says your clean, you are in fact clean by the governing body (unless you get caught up in a scandel).

So I think IF everything is on the up and up, and you have clean tests, I would absolutely be fine with standing behind that validation. In the context of cycling, it doenst hold as much weight as it should. Which is sad, but I think a very true assessment, would you agree?


Quite correct.

And the point here is that the sport he is now in is triathlon, not cycling per se.
So different testing regimes, different governing bodies.
Some will say he just manipulated the cycling ones, who knows, I don’t really care.

But if he starts testing negative in all his tri’s from now on, and actually wins, the same detractors will simply have to assume he is still cheating
And still somehow fooling the system. And that is really what this discussion should be about. Plenty of guys on here will just go round in circles going on about past ‘evidence’, and past ‘proof’. They believe it, fair enough.

But they will just have to assume every future victory is also tainted. Which in turns taints the sport itself. And I find that quite sad to be honest


Kenney

Feb 9, 12 19:34

Post #66 of 106 (5339 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, I did write that Marion Jones never tested positive.. I did not say there was evidence he was clean in some........Please let me be clearer. I believe your reading skills are as good as you say. You must not comprehend. ......There is plenty of circumstantial evidence and testimonial evidence he doped. He has not been convicted.....When he doped, I do not know. All, maybe. Some, sure. Which ones, I do not know. Might of won the TdF clean.......Why would someone who doped to win, stop? I do not know. But thats what happens when you are not credible.......Remember his rivals who we now know doped, never tested positive and he did not beat them, He crushed them. His times rival possibly the best climber of all time who was doped to the gills. ......and did not test positive and was only kicked out of a race do to high hemocrit(sp?). ......Asof now, no court has convicted Mr. Armstrong. ........I do hope WADA and USADA have the ability to let the truth out of what was found in the investigation.


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:34

Post #67 of 106 (5337 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [techknowgn] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

techknowgn wrote:
njc wrote:

So now his doping caused his cancer !!!
Well if you start believing that then there is very little point in discussing it with you.


Im no doctor, but it can cause illnesses temporary and long term. No one really knows for sure everything it does to the body long term. Look at the folks who use HGH, compare Barry Bonds head size to 10 or 12 years ago. Its insane what the side effects are. I dont know if it caused the cancer or not.

To you other point, not doping during the race isnt riding clean. The real advantage of doping is doing it during training and in the days leading up to the race. And even during the "clean races" teammates testified he may have gotten transfusions they didnt witness because the equipment was still present.

Finally, multiple teammates have testified that he knew when the tests were coming so he could avoid them, or at least delay them enough to avoid detection when tested.

Again, you know riders get tested very frequently during training?
And I wouldn't suggest doping in training and riding 'clean' is winning clean, it simply isn't. It is still cheating.


njc

Feb 9, 12 19:41

Post #68 of 106 (5308 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Kenney] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Kenney wrote:
Well, I did write that Marion Jones never tested positive.. I did not say there was evidence he was clean in some........Please let me be clearer. I believe your reading skills are as good as you say. You must not comprehend. ......There is plenty of circumstantial evidence and testimonial evidence he doped. He has not been convicted.....When he doped, I do not know. All, maybe. Some, sure. Which ones, I do not know. Might of won the TdF clean.......Why would someone who doped to win, stop? I do not know. But thats what happens when you are not credible.......Remember his rivals who we now know doped, never tested positive and he did not beat them, He crushed them. His times rival possibly the best climber of all time who was doped to the gills. ......and did not test positive and was only kicked out of a race do to high hemocrit(sp?). ......Asof now, no court has convicted Mr. Armstrong. ........I do hope WADA and USADA have the ability to let the truth out of what was found in the investigation.


Ah I see, I do not comprehend now.

Note to self, go back to school and learn to understand what I am reading.

Even if it doesn’t actually make much sense.

I’m sure all the ‘truth’ that those bodies posses will one day come out, assuming there is something to come out. And if it doesn’t, well obviously the dastardly Armstrong got to them first.


BDoughtie

Feb 9, 12 19:44

Post #69 of 106 (5300 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes it's a new sport. I think the only issue is, what happens if the USADA rules against Lance? Which I think, at that point, the question becomes, does WTC/triathlon community still want him to be the "face" of triathlon?

Now in fairness to Lance, the truth is out there and so far, he's "clean". Several organizations have in way one or the other tried to bust Lance, and have come up short. Or he is atleast clean enough to slip through prosecution, which makes him clean. So until he actually faces some type of actual sanctions, we basically should just enjoy the tidal wave ride that Lance is going to create.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


techknowgn

Feb 9, 12 19:48

Post #70 of 106 (5286 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

njc wrote:

Again, you know riders get tested very frequently during training?
And I wouldn't suggest doping in training and riding 'clean' is winning clean, it simply isn't. It is still cheating.

Yes, and he knew when those tests were coming, so say members of his own team, and in one case where he allegedly tested positive, teammates say he was able to buy his way out of it.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.


Kenney

Feb 9, 12 19:56

Post #71 of 106 (5263 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My comment on comprehension was due to you finding some logic that I said he did not dope some so could of won clean. I did not say that.
To.:And if it doesn’t, well obviously the dastardly Armstrong got to them first.
If it does not, I will not know why the evidence now in some hands does not come out. Maybe legal reasons beyond my understanding.......Your comment thatit is sad for tri's that if people transfer their past views to him now....................I agree. ................Thats life. .....Anyone, not Lance, but anyone that is accused, sadly, rightly or wrongly, it follows them. That is why with all these comments from NPR and the WSJ and cyclingnews ect....that talk about all this evidence, that it all comes out. That way it is clearer.................Sadly in the same way you imply that someone like me will always pick on Lance, many will say will believe him no matter what comes out.
If the same amount of evidence that is already out there was brought against Contrador or Ullrich, they decisions would of been before this week. Criminy, they had Ullrich's dna and that just got decided this week


Rappstar

Feb 9, 12 21:27

Post #72 of 106 (5113 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [triDVM] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Appreciate you asking my opinion, though it seems there was no shortage of other folks that filled the void in my absence.

While I think there are certainly some positives about Lance returning in a serious way to triathlon, I don't think that it's really encouraging that he announces his return to triathlon almost immediately after he gets let off the hook by the US Attorney's Office, especially when you have Travis Tygart, the USADA president, basically saying that he's committed to a continuing a thorough investigation. I can't think of any other athlete where you could have a recently cleared federal indictment and the shadow of USADA hanging over his head and still have everyone glad-handing each other about him racing.

Now, I don't mean that as a judgement on whether or not Lance is guilty or not, whether he doped or not, etc. I just think it's a bit sad that USADA saying they want to investigate someone doesn't seem to give anyone pause. Now, by the same token, I don't expect that Lance - or anyone else - should have to twiddle their thumbs while USADA investigates, and Lance hasn't been convicted of anything. But nevertheless, I do think it's a bit odd for WTC - which is committed to supporting the WADA (and by extension, USADA) - doesn't seem to be troubled by the ongoing USADA investigation.

In a more relevant example, everyone on this forum was ready to skewer Michael Weiss and to have him kicked out of the sport for good - in many cases even before the verdict ultimately went against him, yet Weiss also has never failed a doping test, and ultimately it came down to a lot of - as far as I know - circumstantial evidence plus testimony from other athletes. There seems to me to be quite a lot of circumstantial evidence and testimony from former teammates in the case of Lance, but everyone is over the moon that he's racing. I guess that's what I find confusing. Weiss is a cheat and a scumbag in people's eyes - seemingly universally - yet Lance returning to race, with a similar type of investigation that loomed over Weiss's head for much of his career, is somehow the best thing to happen to the sport? I have some trouble with that double standard, especially given the timing of both the US Attorney's office announcement and Lance's/WTC's announcement.

I think the answer to whether or not race strategy will be affected is something that you'll see over the course of the season. I don't imagine that anyone is going to assume they can give Lance a 20min lead off the bike, but I also don't think people are going to feel they need to go with him - except maybe Lieto. I would say if he runs well in Panama, that'll change. I'm sure that folks will be watching, but - as Lieto himself has shown - it's a very different game running 13.1 after 56 than running 26.2 after 112. I think it'll be most interesting to see how he does in France, especially if Frederick Van Lierde defends his title, since FVL will offer a pretty good benchmark - I think - of performance.

Generally speaking, I don't think Lance will do for triathlon what he did for cycling, simply because I don't think that he'll do *in* triathlon what he did in cycling. I don't expect him to be the first man to notch seven Kona victories. But I do think he'll bring more media, more attention, more money, and more of just about everything into triathlon. Is that a good thing? I dunno. I'm sure it'll be a mixed blessing. There are some downsides to being a niche sport. But there are also some pluses. I suppose it's all just evolution. The sport is both better and also worse off now than it was 10 years ago, and was better/worse off then than 10 years prior to that. There was something truly special and magical about a handful of crazy folks getting together on Oahu to do something they didn't have any idea if they could, stopping at convenience stores, etc. Reminds me of the old pictures of the TdF with the guys carrying spare tubulars strapped over their backs and smoking cigarettes. Is what we have now better? In some ways, yes, and in some ways, no. Of course, if triathlon was still just a lunatic fringe, I wouldn't be able to make my living doing it, so I'm thankful that it's evolved into something where I can have a real career. But I'm also a bit sad that I never got to experience its wild and crazy early days. And maybe I'll end up saying to future pros, "you should have seen the sport before Lance got involved..." the way that Monty and Andrew McNaughton and Huddle and Frey and the other old skool folks talk about the sport back in the 80s and 90s.

Lance will likely bring change. That seems inevitable. Some of it will probably be good. Some of it probably will not be good. That's just the way of the world. Whether or not that change will affect me in any meaningful way? Who knows. I won't lose any sleep over it until I have a legitimate proof that I should be losing sleep over it.

Until something proves otherwise, my world is largely unchanged from what it was a day ago. Maybe now a few more people that I sit next to on planes will know what a triathlon is. But I've still got a job I love and that I'm lucky to do and thankful for every day. Lance deciding to race hasn't changed anything about that in the least. And I don't think what happens with him on the race course, whether it's a race I'm a part of or not, will change that either. And I actually don't think what happens with him off the race course will change it too much either. Lance brought a lot of change to cycling because he became a celebrity through cycling. He's coming to triathlon as a celebrity. I think with cycling he demonstrated that pro athletes were important and valuable. I don't think that he'll do the same thing with triathlon; I think he's showing - in triathlon - that Lance is valuable. I don't expect to see any sort of "trickle down" from the "Lance effect." I expect that Lance will get richer, that WTC will get richer, and that - best case - the companies involved in the sport will sell more product and that overall the sport will grow and, as the saying goes, that a rising tide will lift all boats. But I don't think that Lance really has much in common with me or with any other triathlon pro. He's massive. He's an industry unto himself. He dwarfs Macca, and Macca dwarfs pretty much all of the rest of us. So, because of that, I really don't see Lance having an impact on other pros. Lance is a business way more than he's an athlete. Lance getting involved is more like K-Swiss or TYR getting involved, except I don't expect Lance to sponsor athletes (though Team Livestrong may eventually sponsor some other pros).

Ultimately, I'll follow the race in Panama just like everyone else will. What happens after that, your guess is as good as mine...


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Ryon

Feb 9, 12 22:35

Post #73 of 106 (5006 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
But I don't think that Lance really has much in common with me or with any other triathlon pro. He's massive. He's an industry unto himself. He dwarfs Macca, and Macca dwarfs pretty much all of the rest of us. So, because of that, I really don't see Lance having an impact on other pros. Lance is a business way more than he's an athlete.

An interesting take.

LAF hasn't funded cancer research in years (according to Outside Magazine http://www.outsideonline.com/...b-Rats.html?page=all). Is he inspiring? Maybe. But the cancer patients I see every day need more than motivation, and I know Lance didn't beat cancer on determination alone. The cancer research boat is not one that rises along with the incoming Livestrong tide.

I hope this means good things for the sport and for fitness in general.

-----------------------
My Science Blog
"The only fair race is the race against the clock" -Anquetil



Cake

Feb 10, 12 0:21

Post #74 of 106 (4877 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [njc] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

njc wrote:
Kenney wrote:
To..:So, every victory, in every race, he was doped up?
Who knows, but there is tons of evidence that he did. You kind of lose the "he might of been innocent some" when you meet with Ferrari in a van on the side of the road in the mountains. Hey, if you think the evidence out there does not add up, fine, thats your opinion, but there is plenty of testimonial and curcumstantial evidence.


Every race .... seriously ?

Yeah mate, some bad news, Lance EPOstrong is a fraud.


PeacefulWarrior

Feb 10, 12 3:27

Post #75 of 106 (4748 views)
Re: Rappstar's viewpoint on Lance in IM? [Cake] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I love it when people like you refer to Lance like that based solely on what you've read BY people who have been caught cheating. You call Lance a fraud, but totally support the testimony of proven and admitted frauds. They are credible frauds because they got caught, right?? Genius!!

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Swimming
Now that it's off season, are you shutting it down for a couple of months? Or will you swim through the Winter?
Shutting it down
Swim thru Winter
I don't swim