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Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training
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hotshot
Feb 3, 12 12:52
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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There are a number of studies that back this up for all endurance sports. The key is maximal strength training. if you do normal weight training or strength endurance work in the gym the its more of a waste of time. strength endurance is best done in the hills. Here is a link below that sums up a number of studies with the positives to max strength training for endurance athletes
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/...ude_Weight_Trai.aspx
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triguy42
Feb 3, 12 13:03
Post #27 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [hotshot]
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hotshot wrote:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/...ude_Weight_Trai.aspx
That article is full of so many "facts" that are repudiated by research, it is hardly worth reading. "Strength training will boost your metabolism..." Wrong. At least his core suggestions in improving core strength and doing weights via high HR intervals and ~50% maximal weightlifting are vaguely reasonable. Lets go out and do squats.
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JollyRogers
Feb 3, 12 13:12
Post #28 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
Think of how much wattage is lost by an inefficient pedal stroke.
How much?
Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 13:19
Post #29 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [JollyRogers]
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Play a game called use the search bar.
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JollyRogers
Feb 3, 12 14:02
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
Play a game called use the search bar.
No please, give an answer beyond the FD/PC BS. I'm especially curious because the study doesn't use the term "efficiency"; it says efficacy. Those two words have different meanings. In any case, I don't think that you actually mean efficiency, defined as mechanical work performed divided by the metabolic cost of that work; you are talking about efficiency as meaning a more even application of force around the pedal stroke.
There is at least one study that found that those with the most effective pedal stroke i.e. those who produce the most wattage, had the most uneven application of force around the pedal stroke.
Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 14:05
Post #31 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [JollyRogers]
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JollyRogers wrote:
cjathey wrote:
Play a game called use the search bar.
No please, give an answer beyond the FD/PC BS. I'm especially curious because the study doesn't use the term "efficiency"; it says efficacy. Those two words have different meanings. In any case,
I don't think that you actually mean efficiency, defined as mechanical work performed divided by the metabolic cost of that work;
you are talking about efficiency as meaning a more even application of force around the pedal stroke.
There is at least one study that found that those with the most effective pedal stroke i.e. those who produce the most wattage, had the most uneven application of force around the pedal stroke.
This IS what I've been talking about.
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JollyRogers
Feb 3, 12 16:23
Post #32 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
Play a game called use the search bar.
Humor me and give me a search string that will reveal the answer to that question.
David B
Feb 3, 12 17:16
Post #33 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [triguy42]
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triguy42 wrote:
hotshot wrote:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/...ude_Weight_Trai.aspx
That article is full of so many "facts" that are repudiated by research, it is hardly worth reading. "Strength training will boost your metabolism..." Wrong. At least his core suggestions in improving core strength and doing weights via high HR intervals and ~50% maximal weightlifting are vaguely reasonable. Lets go out and do squats.
There have been studies that show that increased lean body mass does increase basal metabolic rate. The Katch-McArdle formula (and I believe one other) are considered valid by many. Granted, these are estimations, but they wouldn't be considered valid unless LBM had been shown to be a factor in calculating BMR and RMR.
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RebeccaCreekKid
Feb 3, 12 20:38
Post #34 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [David B]
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Time trial riders are taller, bigger guys because w/kg does not correlate well to performance on a flat or mostly flat course. Smaller riders are penalized, or larger riders have an advantage, take your pick, because w/cda matters; not w/kg.
Now if you want my pet theory, I think that taller riders have a better chord ratio in the aero position, but that's a hunch and worth what you paid for it.
hotshot
Feb 4, 12 1:28
Post #35 of 116
(2166 views)
Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [David B]
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David B wrote:
triguy42 wrote:
hotshot wrote:
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/...ude_Weight_Trai.aspx
That article is full of so many "facts" that are repudiated by research, it is hardly worth reading. "Strength training will boost your metabolism..." Wrong. At least his core suggestions in improving core strength and doing weights via high HR intervals and ~50% maximal weightlifting are vaguely reasonable. Lets go out and do squats.
There have been studies that show that increased lean body mass does increase basal metabolic rate. The Katch-McArdle formula (and I believe one other) are considered valid by many. Granted, these are estimations, but they wouldn't be considered valid unless LBM had been shown to be a factor in calculating BMR and RMR.
Yes there is a fair amount of studies to back up his claims. But that was just one point that he made of many though the article. The most important point in the article is that you improve performance by added max strength training into you work load. How it works is still a little unclear but it's believed that it's due to neurological changes. Basically it means that you can recuit more of the muscle you already have. Then you have to train that muscle to gain full benifits. You go backwards to go forwards. You also get different hormonal responses to strength training to endurance training which can help performces in the long run.
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hotshot
Feb 4, 12 1:44
Post #36 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [jackmott]
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jackmott wrote:
cjathey wrote:
If you can't hold proper form that is also wasted energy right?
Even Rasmussen held proper form, and he was a concentration camp victim.
Quote:
On Rasmussen he actually did a large amount of on bike strength training. I was lucky enough to train with him for a day a few years back. He would be at his heaviest (64-66kg) around march/April after he finished his strength block then slowly cut down to lose all the extra non functional muscle.
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rruff
Feb 4, 12 13:07
Post #37 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [jackmott]
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Someone here, either Andy Coggan or Tom A did an N=1 study on themselves where they did weight training, and while their lift numbers improved steadily it did not affect their FTP
It didn't in this study either. All this study says is that "negative torque" zone was made smaller, and the power improved in a 5min max effort... compared to cyclists who were doing nothing but endurance training!
1st point... negative torque on the upstroke has not been shown to reduce power output. So why should we be worried about it?
2nd point... the guys doing nothing but endurance riding were obviously not training to produce a peak performance at anything... so are a really poor baseline. I suppose if the weight training guys had performed *worse* that would have been useful info, but performing better, means basically nothing.
3rd point... all of these studies kinda piss me off, because they provide no useful info. Useful info would be taking a well trained group of cyclists and switching their complete training plan from A to B... with the important result being, did they or did they not improve their peak performance in their goal event? For instance regarding this study, we need to know if the cyclists who did the weight training went on to achieve PRs, compared to ones who didn't do weight training.
Derf
Feb 4, 12 13:51
Post #38 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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Please don't think I'm trolling (or abusing you the OP).
Questions that I see needing answers in the full article:
1.) Is the control effective? Control is doing the same thing per usual, test group ADDED heavy lifting regime--what are the effects of said extra efforts? Is said regime at all optimal?
2.) Definition of "efficiency"? Are they discussing metabolic cost to joules to the road or are they defining it in some other fashion?
Of course I'm interested in the testing regime's specifics as well. We'll see!
Derf
Feb 4, 12 13:59
Post #39 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [JollyRogers]
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JollyRogers wrote:
cjathey wrote:
Play a game called use the search bar.
No please, give an answer beyond the FD/PC BS. I'm especially curious because the study doesn't use the term "efficiency"; it says efficacy. Those two words have different meanings. In any case, I don't think that you actually mean efficiency, defined as mechanical work performed divided by the metabolic cost of that work; you are talking about efficiency as meaning a more even application of force around the pedal stroke.
There is at least one study that found that those with the most effective pedal stroke i.e. those who produce the most wattage, had the most uneven application of force around the pedal stroke.
Agreed.
The Coyle paper you refer to--I looked at the crank angle force graphs; (and while I didn't rip them out of the paper and really analyze) it seemed like the power to the road was actually quite even at all crank angles. I.e. the summed torque of both legs on the crank at any crank angle was pretty even, or at least more consistent than the untrained cyclists. The professionals were just far more push-centric.
desert dude
Feb 4, 12 14:02
Post #40 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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In Reply To:
Stability muscles? That's about all I can think would be improved with that.
if stability muscles were so important, how does one ride or run without first increasing their stability strength to support them in their activity?
In Reply To:
I can see a fairly large benefit in building muscle to sprint the initial part of the swim
Dude, seriously, do some reading or something.
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Grant.Reuter
Feb 4, 12 14:18
Post #41 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [desert dude]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I can see a fairly large benefit in building muscle to sprint the initial part of the swim
Dude, seriously, do some reading or something.
Well by sprint he means not fall off the back and by that he means all the FOP ITU athletes are HUGE!
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Chris Athey
Feb 4, 12 14:33
Post #42 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [Grant.Reuter]
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Lochte must not be a very good swimmer then, neither is Ed moses or countless other large framed boys. Most of the russians are rather large as well. Alistair is almost entirely lean muscle. Are you saying not to build muscle to swim fast? Like a track sprinter explosive power can be built by lifting.
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Chris Athey
Feb 4, 12 14:42
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [desert dude]
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Core stability allows one to hold a more effective aero position, swim with correct form, and even run with correct form. I have a hard time believing that all of the coaches who assign core work to their athletes, many of them at the top, that they're all wrong. I guess 99% of pro athletes are wasting their time with core and stability work.
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/...on-to-core-stability
I know no matter what that on slowtwitch I will not be accepted as right...because I've picked a losing position.(in the eyes of this website) To answer your question it's not required to perform the activity, but it is a vital part of doing it efficiently.
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devashish_paul
Feb 4, 12 14:51
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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Edwin Moses' event was sub 50 seconds....how does that relate to Browlee's event that is one hour and Fifty MINUTES ? I'm for lifting weights (I try to lift 4-5x per week for 50 weeks per year), for a ton of good reasons other than triathlon performance. Since most of us don't make a living off triathlon, being just fast at triathlon at the expense of other athletetic capabilities (and general health) is not of paramount importance to most people.
But let's not use what works for athletes doing purely (or largely) anaerobic events and apply that to aerobic events.
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Chris Athey
Feb 4, 12 14:54
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [devashish_paul]
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cjathey wrote:
Well that's not entirely true. I can see a fairly large benefit in building muscle to sprint the initial part of the swim, but otherwise it is inefficient. I think this is why several swimmers struggle to really run well. As jack mott has mentioned muscle is very heavy. Someone like Sara Mclarty, albeit an amazing swimmer really hasn't done much in this sport the way she was hyped to. Yes she can win the swim, and then watch everyone catch and pass her, which in my mind is a very depressing way to race.
Read the above quote. I wasn't saying that it was efficient, merely faster.
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Grant.Reuter
Feb 4, 12 14:57
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
Lochte must not be a very good swimmer then, neither is Ed moses or countless other large framed boys. Most of the russians are rather large as well. Alistair is almost entirely lean muscle. Are you saying not to build muscle to swim fast? Like a track sprinter explosive power can be built by lifting.
Let me just verify that you are comparing how two people look who do races that one is under 4 minutes and the other is under a minute to triathletes?
Polyansky weights 141lbs
Brukhankov weighs 161
Neither of those guys are huge by any means. You don't need to build any more muscle than any of these other guys, which by the looks of things is pretty much no muscle. Why would you want explosive power in a triathlon? You want just enough power to swim on the heels on the fastest people and not get kicked off if they speed up. Also to have enough speed to stay with the lead group on the start. If these guys are doing it at 141 and 161, your lack of staying with the lead group is not because you are lacking muscular strength.
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desert dude
Feb 4, 12 14:59
Post #47 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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In Reply To:
Are you saying not to build muscle to swim fast? Like a track sprinter explosive power can be built by lifting.
Don't confuse strength and power. They are not the same. For that initial burst off the line you need power in the water not strength or bulk. it's not about strength,
In Reply To:
I have a hard time believing that all of the coaches who assign core work to their athletes, many of them at the top, that they're all wrong. I guess 99% of pro athletes are wasting their time with core and stability work.
Then what about all those BOP athletes that do lots of core work and stability exercises. Why aren't those making them FOP? What about their coaches? Do you believe those coaches?
In Reply To:
Core stability allows one to hold a more effective aero position, swim with correct form, and even run with correct form
No on the aero position, being properly positioned allows that, I'd also argue that your lower back muscles are probably more important then your core, but I digress. No on the swim form, the swim stroke is not driven through your hips, it's leg driven, that's where your rotation starts, your not using your ore muscles to start it unless your stroke is jacked up. Abs are not very important in running either. Go run really long, 45-60 min more then normal. Are you abs sore? No b/c you've got more then enough ability to support yourself with them without doing core work. Go do some monster track workout. Sore abs? Nope but sore legs. You'll make all the adaptations necessary through normal s/b/r that your core needs.
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Grant.Reuter
Feb 4, 12 15:06
Post #48 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
cjathey wrote:
Well that's not entirely true. I can see a fairly large benefit in building muscle to sprint the initial part of the swim, but otherwise it is inefficient. I think this is why several swimmers struggle to really run well. As jack mott has mentioned muscle is very heavy. Someone like Sara Mclarty, albeit an amazing swimmer really hasn't done much in this sport the way she was hyped to. Yes she can win the swim, and then watch everyone catch and pass her, which in my mind is a very depressing way to race.
Read the above quote. I wasn't saying that it was efficient, merely faster.
Well duh? Of course its faster, if your event is up to 4 minutes long in the pool of course its going to be faster. That doesn't mean its the way to get faster for a race that is nearly two hours long. This really can't be your argument why to lift can it? Pure horsepower/muscular strength will always have an advantage in those races but last time I checked we aren't doing those races. Thats like saying if you turn on the afterburners on an f-16 you'll be faster since you'll have more force, well of course but its surely going to kill how far you can go. The same applies to tris of course it will make you faster for a few minutes the problem is you're not going for a few minutes
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Chris Athey
Feb 4, 12 15:07
Post #49 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [desert dude]
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After having watched videos featuring Mike Doane talking about swim power he says it comes from the hips.
To respond to your second point. Yes they're doing core work. Core BTW in my mind includes lower back(superman holds etc). But simply doing core work doesn't make you fast. It may give you an edge, it might allow you to start training to be faster, but doing it in upon itself will not make you fast. There are several sources which say that core allows the body to be more efficient. In a race of two hours, or 4 hours or 8 hours, often times the most efficient athlete is at the top.
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Chris Athey
Feb 4, 12 15:10
Post #50 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [Grant.Reuter]
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The study is for an all out 5 minute time trial.
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