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Venge more aero than an s5?
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Aralo
Jan 27, 12 7:05
Post #76 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [duncan]
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duncan wrote:
Even if the DZ dummy is well calibrated, Cervelo's use of it for presenting their aero data for road frames consequently grossly underestimates the contribution of rider to overall drag that would exist for a someone in a realistic position wearing typical clothes, helmet etc. So, although the number of Watts saved by using an aero frame vs "standard" frame at a certain speed should be correct, by using the DZ dummy the percentage of Watts saved is far greater than would actually be the case under realistic conditions. For me I find this a kind of misrepresentation, since it suggests more aero advantage than actually exists.
This!
The Tour test reports the Watts which are needed to overcome the AERO drag only. They said at 45 km/h add roughly 50W for rolling resistance and another 10W for drive train losses. Then we're at roughly ~400W you'd need to put out. Then 5W because of a bottle or whatnot is really just 1%. If you put the rider in Time trial position and disregard the other Watts from RR & DriveTrain and let's say you report 250W you'd say 5W matters. (Numbers are just examples to illustrate it, let it be 10W; same story). Sure, 5W saved matter, but it doesn't as much as many people think.
Grant.Reuter
Jan 27, 12 7:05
Post #77 of 165
(2282 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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jackmott wrote:
maybe while arundel is at it, they can make the bottle stay in their cage =)
Ugh I think I lost it in 50 percent of the races I did such a pain in the ass.
-----------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon
cartsman
Jan 27, 12 7:20
Post #78 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [styrrell]
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styrrell wrote:
I'm interested in how Cav does this year. The Pinarellos have never looked particularly aero to me. He had a great 2011 and their seems to be some up and coming sprinters.
Will he definitely be on a Pinarello or is there a chance he can stick with a Venge kitted out with Sky colours? Seems like he's not the kind of rider who would give up anything which he thought gave him an edge, and there is precedent for top riders not being on team bikes.
duncan
Jan 27, 12 7:22
Post #79 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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And I write this as someone who, on an emotional level, would like to buy an aero frame road bike. The problem is, for the terrain I currently ride/compete on and which is my forte - namely sustained climbs of 6-10% gradient - realistic calculations show that they really don't help much, at best a few Watts. Indeed, neither aero or weight make significant differences, especially since what I see in practice is that the difference in dropping someone/hanging on/being dropped normally involves large deltas of Watts (e.g. 20+). The aero frames will make a difference on descents; however, there stability and cornering ability also play a big role. So finally, assuming an event has multiple climbs, the aero advantage would mainly be important only for energy minimisation on flat or rolling transitions between climbs.
(This post was
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by duncan on Jan 27, 12 7:23)
officespaced
Jan 27, 12 7:23
Post #80 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [dalessit]
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I have the Venge and my understanding was the frame shape is the same between the McLaren and the other Venge frames. The difference is in the carbon layup which is what McLaren provided their expertise in optimizing to make it lighter and maintaining stiffness. The parts included on the two models will drasticly affect the aerodynamics such as the 404 carbon clinchers vs the Roval wheels on the pro.
duncan
Jan 27, 12 7:24
Post #81 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [cartsman]
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cartsman wrote:
styrrell wrote:
I'm interested in how Cav does this year. The Pinarellos have never looked particularly aero to me. He had a great 2011 and their seems to be some up and coming sprinters.
Will he definitely be on a Pinarello or is there a chance he can stick with a Venge kitted out with Sky colours? Seems like he's not the kind of rider who would give up anything which he thought gave him an edge, and there is precedent for top riders not being on team bikes.
Will be interesting to see. Allegedly the change from the Venge to a Pinarello was a major sticking point in him signing for Sky.
styrrell
Jan 27, 12 7:29
Post #82 of 165
(2228 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [duncan]
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It'll be interesting, he's one rider who is very picky about equioment, even going so far as to have his wheel changed to round spokes. Its possible that a rebadge would happen, but I doubt it. Also possible that Pinarello will launch an aero frame. Of course its also possible that Cav thinks he can win just as easily on a Pinarello.
Styrrell
duncan
Jan 27, 12 7:36
Post #83 of 165
(2214 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [styrrell]
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Here's the link:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...tract-with-cavendish
"and Cavendish prefers a Specialized bike but Sky has a contract with Pinarello"
Then a few days later, the Sky/Pinarello deal is confirmed:
http://www.bikeradar.com/...ark-cavendish-32026/
And in January his new bike shown (from
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/...rello-dogma-2.html):
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 7:51
Post #84 of 165
(2187 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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5 watts is 5 watts.
try to increase your FTP by 5 watts when you are in peak fitness.
or try to outdo your PB on your favorite training loop by 5 watts
pain...pain and suffering!
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jackmott
Jan 27, 12 8:28
Post #85 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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from the video, it looks like the Venge had di2 with clean cable routing and the S5 was mechanical shifting with messy cable routing.
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duncan
Jan 27, 12 8:31
Post #86 of 165
(2146 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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5 watts on a 400 watt FTP: 1.25%
Precision of power meter: 1-2%
FTP difference going from Cat 1 to elite/domestic pro: ~10%
FTP difference between an in crushing form Cancellara, and that of his rivals: >> 1%
Etc.
(This post was
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by duncan on Jan 27, 12 8:32)
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 8:34
Post #87 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [duncan]
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But what is the FTP difference between me in 10th place in a cat4 TT and me in 1st place in a cat4 tt?
well it depends who shows up but sometimes it is 5w =)
same applies to a pro-tour TT, cat 1 tt, cat 2 tt, cat 3 tt, cat 4 tt, and a cat 5 tt
duncan wrote:
5 watts on a 400 watt FTP: 1.25%
Precision of power meter: 1-2%
FTP difference going from Cat 1 to elite/domestic pro: ~10%
Power difference between an in crushing form Cancellara, and that of his rivals: >> 1%
Etc.
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duncan
Jan 27, 12 8:39
Post #88 of 165
(2122 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Dude, get it straight - we're talking about
road bikes
here. I'd thought to specify that we're not talking about TTs in my post above, but thought that you were too smart for it to be necessary...
(This post was
edited
by duncan on Jan 27, 12 8:40)
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 8:41
Post #89 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [duncan]
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duncan wrote:
Dude, get it straight - we're talking about
road bikes
here.
same logic applies to whether I stay attached to the cat 4 peleton or not! lol
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IJ
Jan 27, 12 8:49
Post #90 of 165
(2109 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Nope, both DI2, the shift and brake cables were adjustable in length (can be pulled into the handlebars) and were kept as short as possible on each trial.
On the Venge faster than S5 debate. Nowhere in the Magazine you will find a Tour engineer saying that one bike was faster than the other. They said both the bikes (and the felt) tested within the failure of the tunnel.
I think asumptions further than that are dangerous, and the tour took handled giving both the same grades in the overall test results.
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 8:51
Post #91 of 165
(2106 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [IJ]
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interesting.
Just from looking at the Venge it would be hard to believe it is as slippery as the S5, but this test does seem well done as far as I can tell.
Will be interesting to see if other comparos come out.
IJ wrote:
Nope, both DI2, the shift and brake cables were adjustable in length (can be pulled into the handlebars) and were kept as short as possible on each trial.
On the Venge faster than S5 debate. Nowhere in the Magazine you will find a Tour engineer saying that one bike was faster than the other. They said both the bikes (and the felt) tested within the failure of the tunnel.
I think asumptions further than that are dangerous, and the tour took handled giving both the same grades in the overall test results.
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duncan
Jan 27, 12 8:52
Post #92 of 165
(2102 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Giving credence to you having more ability than that, Cat 4 Freds are instead referred here:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/...-future-of-bike.html
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 8:57
Post #93 of 165
(2083 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [duncan]
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duncan wrote:
Giving credence to you having more ability than that, Cat 4 Freds are instead referred here:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/...-future-of-bike.html
Quote:
I’m a 44 yr-old, Cat 2 Masters Racer. I can drive a line, bridge a gap and finish mid pack. I looked down at the speedo while jumping between groups and I was going 31.5 mph with a slight sidewind and not at full effort. 15k? Really for that sensation and speed, I’d pay more.
31.5mph not at full effort!
sounds like he needs to cat up! in fact he should skip cat 1 and go straight to the grand tours
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(This post was
edited
by jackmott on Jan 27, 12 8:58)
duncan
Jan 27, 12 9:18
Post #94 of 165
(2056 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Nah, was all because he was on a Venge.
Tom A.
Jan 27, 12 9:19
Post #95 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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Aralo wrote:
- The measurements error was 1% (displayed with the error bars)
...
- The drag was measured to a precision of 1g in Dresden.
Hmmm...why am I finding these 2 statements to be somewhat in conflict? The power value plots show +/- 1%, or ~+/- 3-3.5W @ 45km/hr, or 6-7W total error range. That's more like +/- 30-40g of drag using the rough ROT...
I'm beginning to think that those error bars are the telling detail of the test protocol...it doesn't appear that it's good enough to "tease out" the differences between the bikes. However, as someone I know likes to say "Absence of evidence isn't the same as evidence of absence" ;-)
Aralo wrote:
- They installed the same handle bar (custom) to also rule that variability out. They connected the handle bar with the dummy.
I took a few things also from the video:
http://tv.tour-magazin.de/...bdf4b7a9ace27f4525f0
Yeah...I saw that in the video (thanks for the link). I also saw in the video that they used a pretty funky double-jointed stem to get it to match up to each frame and that stem could end up being configured significantly different on each bike (wow). For example, look at how it's setup on the Felt vs. on the Shiv. How hard is it to just figure the stems needed for each setup ahead of time (it's just geometry) and have the appropriate stems handy? Why go through the trouble of using the same bar on each but then add in even more uncertainty with that stem setup?
Oh, and I agree that using Di2 on some bikes and not others isn't quite "apples to apples" either.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Carl Spackler
Jan 27, 12 9:19
Post #96 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Tom A.]
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I'm sure Cav and Thor will call you guys if they ever need advice on using an aerobottle for a cat 4 crit.
__________________________________________________
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 9:21
Post #97 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Carl Spackler]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I'm sure Cav and Thor will call you guys if they ever need advice on using an aerobottle for a cat 4 crit.
well, maybe if they are both in the same cat4 crit.
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Tom A.
Jan 27, 12 9:24
Post #98 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Carl Spackler]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
I'm sure Cav and Thor will call you guys if they ever need advice on using an aerobottle for a cat 4 crit.
You
did
notice all the doo-dads Cav was employing in his WC winning race, right? ;-)
Besides, I don't do Cat 4 races anymore :-P
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Carl Spackler
Jan 27, 12 9:29
Post #99 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Right. Gilbert seemed to do ok without an aero frame. And somehow Cadel and Contador managed to overcome not riding aero frames yet still win a couple of significant races.
All of this analysis, and Tom's likely "Sigh... but, but but" retort is for the folly of guys who want to oversimplify what it takes to win.
__________________________________________________
jackmott
Jan 27, 12 9:30
Post #100 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Carl Spackler]
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If anything you are making it more simple, suggesting that equipment matters not at all, when it does matter a bit, and even cyclists more serious than yourself concern themselves with it.
in fact you do too, I think you just feel us cat4 mortals are dumb to worry about this stuff since we are so bad that it doesn't matter
which is a valid point
but then it is all we can hope for, and we think this silly stuff is fun in and of itself
so can I have my fun?
=)
Carl Spackler wrote:
All of this analysis, and Tom's likely "Sigh... but, but but" retort is for the folly of guys who want to oversimplify what it takes to win.
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