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Aero Nerd Alert

 

   


dr.dre

May 20, 11 17:31

Post #1 of 21 (2442 views)
Aero Nerd Alert Quote | Reply

Came across this article: http://www.bicycling.com/...wind-tunnel-obsolete

Pretty cool, and I don't think anyone's brought it up yet. Jackmott, Tom A. etc. what does everyone think? Pretty provocative points in the article.


quellish

May 20, 11 18:03

Post #2 of 21 (2380 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [dr.dre] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, something like this isn't too difficult to build, and could even be integrated into your aerobars or stem. It wouldn't be *too* hard use an iPhone or Android device as the head unit if you wanted to use the data in real time.


--------------------------------------------------
Yeah, it's a great bike but the engine needs work.


dr.dre

May 20, 11 19:05

Post #3 of 21 (2277 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [quellish] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No, probably not hard to build and pretty cheap too from the sounds of it. But I think the real value is not in the device, but dependent on WHO is interpreting the data. That won't be so easy to replicate.


RChung

May 20, 11 20:05

Post #4 of 21 (2183 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [dr.dre] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dr.dre wrote:
Came across this article: http://www.bicycling.com/...wind-tunnel-obsolete

Pretty cool, and I don't think anyone's brought it up yet. Jackmott, Tom A. etc. what does everyone think? Pretty provocative points in the article.
Which are the provocative points?


RChung

May 20, 11 20:05

Post #5 of 21 (2182 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [dr.dre] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dr.dre wrote:
No, probably not hard to build and pretty cheap too from the sounds of it. But I think the real value is not in the device, but dependent on WHO is interpreting the data. That won't be so easy to replicate.
Depends.


TheDC

May 20, 11 20:12

Post #6 of 21 (2162 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [quellish] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The device isn't the cool part. It's the software that the results are downloaded into for the post analysis.

Sure you could build the box and do all the data collection, but then what?

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)


Tom A.

May 20, 11 20:22

Post #7 of 21 (2145 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [dr.dre] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dr.dre wrote:
Came across this article: http://www.bicycling.com/...wind-tunnel-obsolete

Pretty cool, and I don't think anyone's brought it up yet. Jackmott, Tom A. etc. what does everyone think? Pretty provocative points in the article.

Looks like Garmin/Cervelo's version of "Chung on a Stick"...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


Almost2Fast

Jun 9, 11 20:15

Post #8 of 21 (1869 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

im surprised there hasn't been more comments on this article. This is really cool technology. Its stuff like this that makes me want to get out of the aerospace industry and into the bike industry. i hate all the wind tunnel black magic, its the same as our acoustic chambers at work. As an engineer i know you can make any data show what you want, if you are allowed to tweak / tune the input. This little black box could come up with a better universal / real world environment so that you can better predict how products will perform in real life situations, and therefore better design them for real world situations.


- http://www.TriSports.com - 10% discount code - BMOTT-S


jackmott

Jun 9, 11 20:16

Post #9 of 21 (1858 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [AlmostFast] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you can lie with that black box as much as you can lie with a wind tunnel.

this would be nice though if we can use it for our own field testing. we could go beyond the 0-yaw field tests =)



Christmast present ideas from the employees at Austin Tri-Cyclist
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

Jun 9, 11 20:32

Post #10 of 21 (1809 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [AlmostFast] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I still like the idea of combining a PT/SRM/Quark etc on the bike with an iBike powermeter at the same time. The idea is the PT et al measures actual power output, while the ibike measure every parameter that effects power output except CdA, which it assumes is constant.

Ride with both of them keep the PT power constant as you vary your position, see how much the ibike power goes up or down in theory that should tell you whats more aero.

Styrrell

Styrrell


Jiowa

Jun 9, 11 20:38

Post #11 of 21 (1788 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [dr.dre] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Isn't this the same as an iBike? And you couple that with a meter than measure power directly... bam you can compare different configurings in real world settings. I know it's still difficult because the same route is going to have different winds every time but you do it enough, things should average out.

Shouldn't that make wind tunnels obsolete? Please point out what I'm missing?




Running is a gift.


jackmott

Jun 9, 11 20:39

Post #12 of 21 (1784 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [Jiowa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't think the ibike can tell you the yaw angle of the wind, I think the idea is this can?



Christmast present ideas from the employees at Austin Tri-Cyclist
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


Jiowa

Jun 9, 11 20:41

Post #13 of 21 (1782 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ahhhh, I was assuming it could detect the yaw angle. Thanks!




Running is a gift.


jackmott

Jun 9, 11 20:44

Post #14 of 21 (1770 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [Jiowa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jiowa wrote:
Ahhhh, I was assuming it could detect the yaw angle. Thanks!

don't thank me yet, I'm ignorant!
but I think thats right



Christmast present ideas from the employees at Austin Tri-Cyclist
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


AndyF

Jun 9, 11 20:52

Post #15 of 21 (1746 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [AlmostFast] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlmostFast wrote:
im surprised there hasn't been more comments on this article. This is really cool technology. Its stuff like this that makes me want to get out of the aerospace industry and into the bike industry. i hate all the wind tunnel black magic, its the same as our acoustic chambers at work. As an engineer i know you can make any data show what you want, if you are allowed to tweak / tune the input. This little black box could come up with a better universal / real world environment so that you can better predict how products will perform in real life situations, and therefore better design them for real world situations.


Just to set the record straight... A similar project has been around as far back as January of 2010. It was called "Chung-On-A-Stick", in honour of the inventor of virtual elevation. It's since been named AeroStick by the company that's developing it, Alphamantis Technologies. It's also been covered by this article back in March 2010: http://nyvelocity.com/...ness/2010/wang-chung

I can't speak for Robby Ketchell, the Slipstream Sports aerodynamicist mentioned in the article, but as the inventor of the AeroStick, I don't think this will be the end of wind tunnels. We actually think we'll be complementary to wind tunnel data. And perhaps even a gateway drug to get people to understand wind tunnel data better.

We currently measure airspeed and wind angle, and that's very different than the iBike. Our software is extremely robust and very accurate for CxA vs yaw estimates. We are in beta testing right now and hope to have some results available for the Interbike time frame.

As developer of the original "portable wind tunnel" project, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.


Andy


AndyF
http://alphamantis.com
#findyouraero

(This post was edited by AndyF on Jun 9, 11 21:02)


ZackCapets

Jun 9, 11 20:57

Post #16 of 21 (1735 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [Jiowa] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I love how the iBike guy chimes in down in the comments section about some patent infringement nonsense (on the surface it would seem to be something of the sort) and somebody who evidently did some homework immediately schools him (and it would seem that it is not infringement after-all):

Quote:
jhamann222222
Sun, 2011-05-22 15:48
Been there, done that
This method was patented in 2005, and since 2008 the iBike Aero has done exactly what is being talked about in this article. Please check out the iBike Aero atwww.ibikesports.com, and check out patents 7,387,029 and 7,377,180, which cover this infringing device.

Then comes:

Quote:
Arne Boberg
Sun, 2011-05-22 19:03
Patent infringement?
Well, he isn't infringing on patent #7,387,029 because that patent includes a "display" in Claim 1 (its only independent claim). I didn't see a display mentioned in this article - it looks like the box is just used for downloading. As far as patent #7,377,180, - that covers a method of calculation, but no specifics of the method are in the claims. While I am surprised that such a broad patent could have issued, it is vague enough where it would be very hard to enforce. All you have to do is show that you are using a slightly different method to calculate vehicle forces, and the patent is not violated.

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jackmott

Jun 9, 11 20:59

Post #17 of 21 (1724 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [ZackC.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

our patent office is lacking in talent.



Christmast present ideas from the employees at Austin Tri-Cyclist
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


styrrell

Jun 9, 11 21:00

Post #18 of 21 (1719 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm gonna assuem we were both watching the BB game and are a bit tired, but... Think about it for just a sec. The value of wind tunnel testing at different yaws is that it helps simulate wincd direction in real life. As accurate system that goes on a bike and can give real life data would be much better.

If that existed instead of arguing about how the WT data really applies to a real TT, we would be arguing about how real life riding would translate into a WT tunnel test.

Assuming your a Mavs fan congrats. I thought the Heat weould win the series but 2 in a row will be tough, and Miami doesn't seem to do well under pressure.

Styrrell

Styrrell


jackmott

Jun 9, 11 21:06

Post #19 of 21 (1695 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

not following BB game, but am drinking.

this device is cool, and will help to maybe validate larger yaw angle tunnel findings in 'the real world'.

but a wind tunnel still offers for a much more controlled environment to detect smaller differences.

you will still want both tools. You aren't going to figure out for instance, which aero skewer is best with this thing. a tunnel might tell you that.

same for tiny variations in tube shapes and such.

but this tool allows for some powerful 'double checking'



Christmast present ideas from the employees at Austin Tri-Cyclist
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


AndyF

Jun 9, 11 21:09

Post #20 of 21 (1687 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
not following BB game, but am drinking.

this device is cool, and will help to maybe validate larger yaw angle tunnel findings in 'the real world'.

but a wind tunnel still offers for a much more controlled environment to detect smaller differences.


I would say that a wind tunnel allows you to make changes a bit faster. You have a stationary bike and rider.The rider jumps off the bike and the techies can quickly make changes.

The AeroStick, for example, would probably take a little longer to make the necessary changes. It is, however, considerably cheaper to operate.


AndyF
http://alphamantis.com
#findyouraero

(This post was edited by AndyF on Jun 9, 11 21:14)


Almost2Fast

Jun 9, 11 23:02

Post #21 of 21 (1581 views)
Re: Aero Nerd Alert [AndyF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

how cool would it be if we had "real time" reading of watts/power, drag, and speed on our little bike computers. you could try different aero positions and actually get measurable data about how much projected gain you would get in a race for that specific environment that you are racing in rather than a generic 0 / 15 degree yaw from the wind tunnel.

you could have it record a baseline drag #, and wattage and as the race progreses it tells you if you are dropping or gaining watts, or if you are gaining or losing drag. and have it automatically calculate out your time for the rest of the race based on the terrain, power and drag, kind of like the garmin car gps with the estimated arrival time. ....

anyway night guys.


- http://www.TriSports.com - 10% discount code - BMOTT-S

(This post was edited by AlmostFast on Jun 9, 11 23:03)

   
 
 
 



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