Bike Shops
Coaches
Fitters
Race Calendar
Running Stores
Store
Stack & Reach
Training Log
Triathlon Clubs
We Noticed
MAIN INDEX
RULES & LEGEND
LOG IN
Slowtwitch Forums
:
Triathlon Forum
:
Metabolic Efficiency Training concept
1
2
3
View All
Tri
Classifieds
Lavender
Jobs
Womens
Notices
Print Thread
msuguy512
May 2, 11 9:53
Post #51 of 68
(1973 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [JollyRogers]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
JollyRogers wrote:
msuguy512 wrote:
For endurance events you still want a decent amount of fat because like 'carb loading' for short explosive events you want to 'fat load' for 'endurance' .
Know of any studies that show a performance benefit from this? I understand the theory, though I'm a sceptic - just curious if there is evidence that it works in practice.
No, I guess I should have said that I have only seen the theory stated but don't necessarily know if it works or not :)
S McGregor
May 2, 11 10:20
Post #52 of 68
(1947 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [msuguy512]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
msuguy512 wrote:
While you are obviously correct that you already have way more energy stored than you need, the reason to 'fat load' from what I read is that it will increase the enzymes used to burn that fat so you can burn the stores you have at a higher rate. I am not a nutritionist but this is what I read.
Granted it could be wrong
.
Exactly. I will expound by saying, the reason I have been posting the Pubmed links, and in particular the Louise Burke "Nail in the Coffin" editorial is because these matters have been extensively investigated by her and others for over 20 years. We can go back to the studies out of Costill and Hargreaves labs in the late 80s and early 90s as the start of this avenue of research specifically with regard to performance, and the follow up work of Burke and her collaborators after that. If anyone had a vested interest in the plausability of "fat loading" as an ergogenic approach, it was Louise Burke as she pursued it as a focused research agenda for about a decade. At the end of it, the conclusion she came up with is, ... there's nothing there. Yes, increasing the ingestion of fat will increase the oxidation of fat, but we've known that for near 100 years, or more (too bad Coggan isn't around anymore, it's in his latest book chapter), and the Randall Glucose-Fatty Acid cycle has been around since the mid-sixties. And yet, nobody has demonstrated a clear performance benefit to fat loading. OTOH, the evidence is overwhelming as to the benefits of carb loading, clear performance benefits. So, no scientific evidence supporting one case, and a wealth of scientific evidence supporting the other, which one will you take? I love lard as much as the next guy, but....... Further, another poster suggested performance of anything longer than a minute requires fat loading,.. but in fact, for efforts of less than 30 min in duration, fat loading will likely exhibit an ergolytic effect. Since work above ~ 70% VO2max cannot be supported without carbohydrates, if the athlete is glycogen depleted and fueled with fat, they will be limited to this intensity, or, in other words, efforts lower than FTP. Also, as Burke pointed out in her editorial, since the other side of the upregulation of fat oxidation coin is a down regulation of PDH, and reduced uptake of the products of glycolysis into the TCA cycle, even if glycogen levels are not depleted, performance at intensities above FTP will likely be inhibited. At this point, I've said my piece and will now Exit Stage Left.
Steve
http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Paulo Sousa
May 2, 11 10:26
Post #53 of 68
(1942 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [S McGregor]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
S McGregor wrote:
msuguy512 wrote:
While you are obviously correct that you already have way more energy stored than you need, the reason to 'fat load' from what I read is that it will increase the enzymes used to burn that fat so you can burn the stores you have at a higher rate. I am not a nutritionist but this is what I read.
Granted it could be wrong
.
Exactly. I will expound by saying, the reason I have been posting the Pubmed links, and in particular the Louise Burke "Nail in the Coffin" editorial is because these matters have been extensively investigated by her and others for over 20 years. We can go back to the studies out of Costill and Hargreaves labs in the late 80s and early 90s as the start of this avenue of research specifically with regard to performance, and the follow up work of Burke and her collaborators after that. If anyone had a vested interest in the plausability of "fat loading" as an ergogenic approach, it was Louise Burke as she pursued it as a focused research agenda for about a decade. At the end of it, the conclusion she came up with is, ... there's nothing there. Yes, increasing the ingestion of fat will increase the oxidation of fat, but we've known that for near 100 years, or more (too bad Coggan isn't around anymore, it's in his latest book chapter), and the Randall Glucose-Fatty Acid cycle has been around since the mid-sixties. And yet, nobody has demonstrated a clear performance benefit to fat loading. OTOH, the evidence is overwhelming as to the benefits of carb loading, clear performance benefits. So, no scientific evidence supporting one case, and a wealth of scientific evidence supporting the other, which one will you take? I love lard as much as the next guy, but....... Further, another poster suggested performance of anything longer than a minute requires fat loading,.. but in fact, for efforts of less than 30 min in duration, fat loading will likely exhibit an ergolytic effect. Since work above ~ 70% VO2max cannot be supported without carbohydrates, if the athlete is glycogen depleted and fueled with fat, they will be limited to this intensity, or, in other words, efforts lower than FTP. Also, as Burke pointed out in her editorial, since the other side of the upregulation of fat oxidation coin is a down regulation of PDH, and reduced uptake of the products of glycolysis into the TCA cycle, even if glycogen levels are not depleted, performance at intensities above FTP will likely be inhibited. At this point, I've said my piece and will now Exit Stage Left.
**clap, clap, clap**
-
The Triathlon Squad
Like us on Facebook!!!
krull_etc
May 2, 11 10:46
Post #54 of 68
(1922 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [S McGregor]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
I believe Noakes was referring to an observed increase in glycogen stores if a "fat loading period" a few days before a race was followed by a "carb loading period" in the final few days, not a fat oxidation benefit. I obviously don't carry his book around to find the exact reference to confirm that, though...
KrüllSpeaks
|
Bike Love
|
TriBike Transport Ambassador Team
karma
Apr 29, 12 7:52
Post #55 of 68
(1517 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [charlesn]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
charlesn wrote:
I just listened to a podcast on IM Talk, interviewing a dietician, Bob Seebohar, about metabolic efficiency.
His message is to keep carbs low before and during training (and racing) sessions, in order to prevent any spike in blood sugars. The idea is that the body can efficiently burn fat, even during intensive sessions, as long as there is not an increase in insulin to counter it. Instead of carbo loading pre-race, and eating a big bowl of cereal pre-workout, and eating gels every half an hour during a workout, he reckons stick to less carbohydrate rich foods and you will be able to go for a 3 hour ride without needing any supplementary food source. And that you can increase your efficiency such that only 5-10% of your energy needs come from an external source.
Fascinating stuff, and may be something in it for those unable to drop weight, even when training. I'm a bit dark that only yesterday I placed another order for $140, 2 x 25 gel, and am thinking I may not need it.
Then again, maybe I will? Has anyone else heard the podcast or pursued this concept?
I too have been doing an N=1 experiment on metabolic efficiency training. Following the protocols outlined in Bob's book I have lowered my supplemental caloric needs during training by almost 50%. My diet is about 50% fat, 30% protein an 20% carbs, with supplemental carbs pre/post workout on longer effort days. My preferred carbohydrates are sweet potatoes, white rice and bananas. I gave the protocol a big test running the American River 50 mile run three weeks ago. By hour 9 I was pretty hurting, but it was my body, not my energy that was hurting. (my quads were destroyed, I should have trained more). I dropped my hourly caloric intake to about 140 calories in the form of gels. Then yesterday I did a 4.5 hour long course duathlon, but this time I started my day 30 minutes before the race with a Generation UCAN "super starch" shake. I averaged 100 cal / hr for the 4.5 hours and my GI tract was functioning perfectly and I never once felt low on energy. No stomach upset at all and no bloating. I'm very happy with my results given I'm just barely recovered from the run 3 weeks ago.
It felt as though it took about three weeks for my body to adapt, I was sluggish and low energy for a bit, but now I have tons of energy and feel great.
Your mileage may vary!
Dave
Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
adal
Apr 29, 12 9:28
Post #56 of 68
(1492 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
No scientific prove whatsoever, just some observations:
1. Champions eat very different diets
2. The human body excels from 80% carbs (Kenia) to 0% carbs (inuit)
3. But everyone breaks down from a sudden change in diet (put a kenian on an inuit diet or the other way round)
4. Simple and trusted seems to beat "scientific" (Kenian marathon runners, or do you really think a diet full of sugar, full fat milk and cornflour is soooo great)
Maybe all these scientists cause a lot of harm and our best choice is, to find out what works for us (including social acceptance) and than ignore those wise people?
Bryancd
Apr 29, 12 9:46
Post #57 of 68
(1473 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [adal]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
I adopted aspects of this king of training nutrition last year and found I could easily go for 2-3 hours on the bike at the same intensity on no pre-ride food or during ride nutrition beyond water. I lost weight and felt no ill effects post training or in other training sessions.
-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
ZOOT Ultra Triathlon Team
Sponsors: ZOOT, GARMIN, GU, FuelBelt, SPY Optics, PR Bar
desert dude
Apr 29, 12 10:47
Post #58 of 68
(1438 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [karma]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
In Reply To:
My diet is about 50% fat, 30% protein an 20% carbs
So you eat a normal american diet and are equating that to better race results. Did you have good race results before altering your diet?
I'd point you and everyone else who brings this topic up to go back to this post.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3317273#3317273
You want the truth about diet and exercise, he writes it.
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
,
@accelerate3
(This post was
edited
by desert dude on Apr 29, 12 10:47)
dave_voyageur
Apr 29, 12 11:05
Post #59 of 68
(1419 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [desert dude]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Seriously, it's like there's some organized offensive for promoting this concept AGAIN....
Rover24
Apr 29, 12 12:17
Post #60 of 68
(1370 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [charlesn]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
One thing I never see addressed is that fat needs more oxygen than carbohydrate to oxidize as fuel. My brain thinks that if I use less oxygen for carbohydrate oxidation that would leave more oxygen for my muscles.
Just something that I always thought about when I Did low carb training.
MY BRICK IS LONGER THAN YOURS
desert dude
Apr 29, 12 12:24
Post #61 of 68
(1358 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [dave_voyageur]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
It's the trendy way of the week to try to get fast without actually doing the work to get faster.
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
,
@accelerate3
JollyRogers
Apr 29, 12 12:42
Post #62 of 68
(1342 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [Rover24]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Rover24 wrote:
My brain thinks that if I use less oxygen for carbohydrate oxidation that would leave more oxygen for my muscles.
What would your muscles be doing with that extra oxygen?
adal
Apr 29, 12 12:46
Post #63 of 68
(1337 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [Rover24]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Rover24 wrote:
One thing I never see addressed is that fat needs more oxygen than carbohydrate to oxidize as fuel. My brain thinks that if I use less oxygen for carbohydrate oxidation that would leave more oxygen for my muscles.
Just something that I always thought about when I Did low carb training.
Pretty simple, in competitive endurance sports you want to use as much carbs, as sustainable for the distance and as little fat as necessary.
Marathon:
You need about 3000 cal
Stored as carbs: about 2000 (but only 1600-1800 can be used, the body keeps some reserve)
Stored as fat: unlimited (practically for that purpose)
Uptake: very limited, maybe 200-400 total
So fat needs to contribute roughly 1/3 or 1000 cals. The trick is, to teach the body to burn 1/3 of calories from fat close to threshold. Kenian runners proved beyond any doubt, that this is possible on a high carb diet.
10K:
You need about 1000 cal
Stored as carbs: about 2000 (but only 1600-1800 can be used, the body keeps some reserve)
Stored as fat: unlimited
Uptake: none
You need and want absolutely no contribution from fat
Ironman:
You need about 8000-9000 cal
Stored as carbs: about 2000 (but only 1600-1800 can be used, the body keeps some reserve)
Stored as fat: unlimited
Uptake: 2000 on the bike and maybe 1000 on the run
In this case 50% of the energy must come from fat. If you can digest only 1500 cals (instead of 3000), you must burn a higher percentage of fat.
50% at a rather low intensity can also be achieved on a high carb diet, as proven by Dave Scott and Mark Allen (who switched to Paleowhatever AFTER his triathlon career).
(This post was
edited
by adal on Apr 29, 12 12:54)
mojozenmaster
Apr 29, 12 12:57
Post #64 of 68
(1318 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [charlesn]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Homie suggests at least a bottle or 3 of Merlot or Cab every night of the week if you want to be fast
**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
Rover24
Apr 29, 12 17:10
Post #65 of 68
(1254 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [JollyRogers]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
JollyRogers wrote:
Rover24 wrote:
My brain thinks that if I use less oxygen for carbohydrate oxidation that would leave more oxygen for my muscles.
What would your muscles be doing with that extra oxygen?
You would have a slower respitory need and possibly lower heart rate?
MY BRICK IS LONGER THAN YOURS
karma
Apr 29, 12 23:13
Post #66 of 68
(1193 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [desert dude]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
I doubt very much that a "normal American diet" = 20% carbs.
Average american eats more like 50% Carbs, 30% fat and 20% protein.
My race results have never been stellar, I have always been MOP.
However, in the past year, since switching my diet to a much more whole foods based high-fat diet (90% compliant Paleo), my GI tract has been a lot happier when I do race and I have found I need fewer calories to fuel my body at the same effort. I bonk less and enjoy the experience more.
Like I said, I am an N=1 case study and feel as thought I have found the fueling strategy that's going to work for me long term for the intensity level I am currently working on developing (ultra-distance running). I am definitley not going anerobic!
Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
(This post was
edited
by karma on Apr 30, 12 12:19)
JollyRogers
Apr 30, 12 16:09
Post #67 of 68
(1070 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [adal]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
adal wrote:
Pretty simple, in competitive endurance sports you want to use as much carbs, as sustainable for the distance and as little fat as necessary.
Marathon:
You need about 3000 cal
Stored as carbs: about 2000 (but only 1600-1800 can be used, the body keeps some reserve)
Stored as fat: unlimited (practically for that purpose)
Uptake: very limited, maybe 200-400 total
So fat needs to contribute roughly 1/3 or 1000 cals. The trick is, to teach the body to burn 1/3 of calories from fat close to threshold. Kenian runners proved beyond any doubt, that this is possible on a high carb diet.
Do you (or does anyone) have data on how much of the ~2000 calories worth of muscle glycogen is stored in the leg muscles versus upper body? Just curious since muscle glycogen is "non-transferable" between muscles and only liver glycogen, a much more limited supply, is available to muscles that run low. It makes sense that there would be more glycogen stored in the lower body since there is more muscle mass there.
(This post was
edited
by JollyRogers on Apr 30, 12 16:09)
adal
Apr 30, 12 22:51
Post #68 of 68
(993 views)
Re: Metabolic Efficiency Training concept [JollyRogers]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
JollyRogers wrote:
Do you (or does anyone) have data on how much of the ~2000 calories worth of muscle glycogen is stored in the leg muscles versus upper body? Just curious since muscle glycogen is "non-transferable" between muscles and only liver glycogen, a much more limited supply, is available to muscles that run low. It makes sense that there would be more glycogen stored in the lower body since there is more muscle mass there.
I don't have that data. For practical purpose I think it is ok to calculate with 2000 (after a carb load) and 1500 (without any loading but on a high carb diet). Obviously my calculation is simplified a lot, it does not take into account liver glycogen, glycoge in the bloodstream and undigested carbs from breakfast that are digested and become available during the event.
But I think the influence of the diet is greatly exaggerated, it has been shown, that the fat burning capacity for a marathon or an ironman can be achieved on a high carb diet and as training intensity can be higher, I see no advantages for a "metabolic efficiency diet" even if it worked.
If you end an ironman with still full glycogen stores, because you fat burning is so superior, you simply lost time and achieved something (higher than 50% fat burning) which has no purpose. So we need about 50% contribution from fat, certainly not much less but also not much more.
And being able to metabolize more carbs during a race is an advantage. It is possible to do an ironman on maybe 1000 cals but you leave time on the table.
So my goals stay:
1. Load up in a way to really store 2000 cals
2. Get fit enough, to race at an intensity, that allows 50% contribution from fat (fitness is the more important factor than diet)
3. Pace smart (swimming is a great way to blow through those glycogen stores with minimal time gain)
4. Maximise glycoge uptake during the race by choosing high quality sports nutrition (glucose/fructose mix) and training with it
Point 4 goes hand in hand with weight maintainance for me, if I fuel up correctly during long trainings, I minimize the binging afterwards and control weight better. My everyday diet stays roughly the same (2400 cals, 4 equal meals, 50% Carbs, 25% fat, 25% protein) and I use 400 cals for every training hour (80-90% carbs, a bit of protein). So the more I train, the higher the carb ratio.
1
2
3
View All
Print Thread
this forum
this category
all forums
All words
Any words
Whole Phrase
Market Influence
What influences your swim/bike/run product buying decisions most? The use of products by, or comments made by or in:
Pro cyclists?
Pro triathletes?
My non-Slowtwitcher friends?
Forum members and other Slowtwitchers?
Slowtwitch tech articles and forum moderators?
Other magazines?
Manufacturers?
My LBS?
Ratings/comments on other websites?
Other