Welcome to ST. Enjoyed your first post. Now brace yourself....

**starts microwave popcorn**

Zipp has locked everyone out of the market by patenting that the widest point in the rim profile is no longer the brake track as it has been with wheels for as long as I can remember.


What's the patent number?

i thought i read somewhere that the hed/zipp patent expires in 2012. can't find the source, though - ergo, i could very easily be wrong.

and i don't know the patent number.

perhaps rappstar could shed some light on the matter?

My two cents: I own the new Zipp Firecrest 404 clinchers and the latest ENVE 65's. I've ridden the Zipp's a half dozen times now. Without a doubt, they feel good and are plenty fast on the flats. I can feel the rim weight though, especially when the road goes up. I did a local training ride today, which is a mile loop, half of which goes up from 1% to 6%. I rode the Zipps for the first half then switched to the ENVE's. Suspense.....................................I had an easier time staying with the group on the ENVE’s. So which do I prefer for that particular training ride? I know the eight hundred pound gorilla "Zipp" won't want to hear this...but...I liked the ENVE's better. Why you ask? The ENVE’s felt snappier. Meaning, they accelerate quicker, felt livelier, stiffer out of the saddle. What’s interesting is that my 404’s are 1,510 grams and the ENVE’s are 1,540. The ENVE rims are 40 grams lighter. Note that rotating weight is more important than static weight (hubs). I think part of the difference is due to the superior hubs on the ENVE’s (DT Swiss 240). I am amazed that the Zipps have a little play. I tightened them up but keep coming loose. The downside of this is that I lost the tiny advantage of having both sides of the front hub in the aero position. Very strange. There was a small difference in cross wind stability. Granted I’m 190 lb sprinter type. My forte is Crits and TT’s. No Tri’s. I suffer greatly on road races. The shop I purchased the Zipp’s suggested replacing the hubs with DT 190’s or similar quality hub. I will do this as soon as I recover from the Zipp cash outlay. I would imagine the 808’s would be a little faster on the flats and more difficult going up. For this class of wheel, I think it’s very important to consider what kind of riding they do in addition to the weight and expertise of the rider. Since I don’t do Tri’s perhaps the requirements are different.

And let me guess you don't ride with power... so you have absolutely zero idea whether it was easier to ride with the group because they were riding easier or because of the wheels or because you have magical powers that can differentiate between 40 grams....

F that! Isn't there something wrong with using race wheels to "stay with the group?"

No power. No majical powers. Non-scientific. It's just my experience on that particular training ride. As far as riding with the group: No they weren't going slower. It's a ride one hour training ride. They go faster as the laps click away until the final lap when it's an all out sprint to the top of the climb. I was lasting about a lap and a half before getting spit out the back with the Zipps, then recovering while they come around again for another round. I lasted two and a half laps with the ENVE's, consistently. I plan to reverse the process the next time I do the ride; ENVE's first then Zipps and so on. I plan to repeat the process on other rides to compare and contrast the two wheels.....because it's fun! Time will tell. BTW: I'd love to get Power. Need more $. Okay, pass the popcorn.