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Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help!
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Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 8:27
Post #1 of 47
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Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help!
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So I finally installed a set egg brakes over the weekend and I had a helluva time getting them adjusted ...but I'm still not sure if I have them set up correctly. No matter how I adjusted the cable length and alignment, one brake pad always hits the rim first and then the other side hits. Is this normal? On the front, the caliper seems to align it self pretty good so there is even pressure from both sides, but on the rear the it seems as though the pressure from the pads is pushing the rim away from the drive side. I think my cable housing is too short on the rear, so I will try that to see if it helps, but anyone else have similar experience?
Also, when changing a flat on the road, how do you get the tire through the calipers, just pull it through and reinstall before re-inflating? There is no lever like 'normal' brakes the spread the pads open, an infalted tired has a hard time fitting between the pads.
I can say the stopping power seemed pretty good from them, not as good, but really close to my Red brakes they replaced.
Thanks.
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ms6073
Apr 19, 10 8:40
Post #2 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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Did you read the instructions/FAQ that came with the brakes? In answer to your quesiton, yes, I am pretty certain you have them installed/setup correctly just keep in mind that they are single pivot - not dual pivot - design. Ideally the optimal setup to minimize wheel distortion during brake acutation would be to use a 2mm allen wrench and position the brake so the non-pivot brake pad is as close as practicle to the rim so that when the pivoting brake pad contacts the rim, the other pad does not have to travel that far to start working. On a related note, I think they are pretty good but I think Mr. Simkins needs to think about a dual pivot version as the next evolution of the design.
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Michael - Cogito Ergo Sum
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jmh
Apr 19, 10 8:50
Post #3 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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You can use a 2mm allen wrench to adjust the positon so they are centered. There is a slot near the brake mounting bolt, put the short end of the allen wrench in this slot and twist. I think this is in the instructions.
You can set the cable adjustment screw in the upper postion and then lower it to open the brakes to get your wheels out.
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Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 9:12
Post #4 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [ms6073]
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Thanks, so I think my front is good, just need to figure out the rear. On a similar note, when I read the directions, is talks about the left and right side of the brakes (one of the FAQ does kind of address the one pad hitting first issue), but what is the left and right side of the brake, and which pad is supposed to hit first? Because the front and the rear are installed opposite, is the pad on the cable side meant to hit first or is it the other side? Thanks for your help.
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Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 9:15
Post #5 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [jmh]
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Thanks, that's what I though about opening the calipers.
I've aligned what appears to be centered, and as balanced as I can get them, but as the other post said they are single pivot, which I have never worked with before so I think I was look for a dual pivot actuation, where both pads hit at the same time. Thanks.
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ms6073
Apr 19, 10 9:58
Post #6 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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In Reply To:
but what is the left and right side of the brake, and which pad is supposed to hit first? Because the front and the rear are installed opposite, is the pad on the cable side meant to hit first or is it the other side?
Agree that the use of terms left and right leads to confusion so simply keep in mind that pad on the other side of the rim from were the cable enters and is secured to the caliper arm will always contact the rim first. Also, if you use wheelsets with different width rims, I would suggest setting up the brakes for the wider rim and using using the barrel adjuster to use the wheelset with the narrower rim (i.e. narrower Reynolds SDV-66 carbon clincher rear versus a wider Zipp 909 Disc).
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Michael - Cogito Ergo Sum
For every winner, there are dozens of losers and odds are, you're on of them.
(This post was
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Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 9:59
Post #7 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [jmh]
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How much extra cable do you have sticking past the set screw? There is not much room because of how it's routed, I think I have about 1/2".
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ms6073
Apr 19, 10 10:17
Post #8 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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For the front brake, I used the heat shrink tubing and then cut the cable nearly flush. The back brake I have a Jagwire reusable cable end which consumes probably 1/2" and another 1/4" cable between the set screw and the cable end but may also opt to cut the rear flush as well because it is somewhat difficult to position the excess.
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Michael - Cogito Ergo Sum
For every winner, there are dozens of losers and odds are, you're on of them.
jmh
Apr 19, 10 10:49
Post #9 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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I left it a bit long and used a normal cable end crimp I also have about the same setting on the cable adjuster. Like this (thanks TomA):
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Tom A.
Apr 19, 10 10:55
Post #10 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [ms6073]
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Did you read the instructions/FAQ that came with the brakes? In answer to your quesiton, yes, I am pretty certain you have them installed/setup correctly just keep in mind that they are single pivot - not dual pivot - design...
I think they are pretty good but I think Mr. Simkins needs to think about a dual pivot version as the next evolution of the design.
Ummm...it IS dual pivot...and it's the one shoe contacting the rim that starts the other pivot in actuation and brings in the opposite pad. Take a closer look at the design.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 10:59
Post #11 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom A.]
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Is it correct to have them set-up where the pad opposite the cable entry should hit the rim first? I just thought of another question...my old brakes had a serrated (sp?) washer between the caliper and the fork. Should this be installed with the egg brake or mount the caliper directly against the fork? Thanks.
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Tom A.
Apr 19, 10 11:20
Post #12 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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Is it correct to have them set-up where the pad opposite the cable entry should hit the rim first?
No. My suspicion is that you may not have prevented the center bolt (which acts as on of the pivots) from turning as you tightened down the attaching nut. That's why you need the 2mm allen wrench inside the slots while you tighten the nut. If you don't do this, then all of the "travel" in the initial pivot is used up and then the brake would begin "actuating" by drawing in the opposite pad. This normally shouldn't happen until the cable side pad hits the rim. Try loosening the brake nut completely and then re-centering the brake and make sure that the center bolt doesn't turn as you tighten it.
In Reply To:
I just thought of another question...my old brakes had a serrated (sp?) washer between the caliper and the fork. Should this be installed with the egg brake or mount the caliper directly against the fork? Thanks.
I've mounted then both ways (with and without a serrated washer). On the front I left it off since it minimized the gap between the arms and the fork blades. But, on the rear I needed the washer to space the brake up enough to clear my seat stays.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
nickwhite
Apr 19, 10 11:43
Post #13 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [jmh]
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Happy..... Halloween?
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Tom Maliszewski
Apr 19, 10 11:51
Post #14 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom A.]
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Thanks. I left the washer off the front for the reason you mention; to minimize the gap with the fork. I was wondering if I needed the washer though to keep the brake centered. So if I understand you correctly, the pads should remain centered on the rim when there is no tension on the brake. When you pull the brakes, the cable side pad should hit first, and then the opposite pad will be drawn to the rim, creating even pressure on both sides.
Lastly, any tips for installing the rear on a P3 besides trial and error on the brake mount? Thanks again for your help.
Fraser Bicycle
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ms6073
Apr 19, 10 11:54
Post #15 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom A.]
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In Reply To:
Ummm...it IS dual pivot...and it's the one shoe contacting the rim that starts the other pivot in actuation and brings in the opposite pad.
Reviewing the definition at Sheldon Brown's gloassary and I realize you are correct (as usual) but while technically a dual pivot design, mine does not actuate like a traditional dual pivot design thus I may also need to re-examine my setup.
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Michael - Cogito Ergo Sum
For every winner, there are dozens of losers and odds are, you're on of them.
Tom A.
Apr 19, 10 14:06
Post #16 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [nickwhite]
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Happy..... Halloween?
You should be wishing that to me...he "stole" my pic from last October when I first posted it showing it mounted on my Soloist.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
jmh
Apr 19, 10 14:08
Post #17 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom A.]
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I thanked you when I "stole" it.
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Tom A.
Apr 19, 10 14:08
Post #18 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom3]
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Lastly, any tips for installing the rear on a P3 besides trial and error on the brake mount? Thanks again for your help.
No...not really...and from some pics I've seen, I'm not quite sure if the Egg brake matches up well with a P3 on the rear anyway. IIRC, the brake is wider than the stays and that basically creates forward facing "scoops" out of the brake arms.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
jmh
Apr 19, 10 14:15
Post #19 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Tom A.]
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Tom A is right on this.
The Egg Brake matches up very nicely in the rear with a P2SL not so nicely with a P3C. The P3C is very narrow at the chainstays and the egg brake sticks out about 4-5mm on each side of the chainstays. That said it is still a smaller brake than a standard caliper, so I don't know what the impact of this maybe. Some tape might help smooth out this transition.
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Tom A.
Apr 19, 10 14:24
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [jmh]
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I thanked you when I "stole" it.
I know...that's why "stole" was in quotes ;-)
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
DarkSpeedWorks
Apr 19, 10 17:32
Post #21 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [ms6073]
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I am not sure how the simkins egg dual pivot brakes work exactly (no exploded diagrams on their website), but I can tell you one important and little known fact (little known even by some master mechanics) that likely applies here as well: for "regular" dual-pivot brakes (i.e., campy front brakes, all sram red force & rival, shimano da ultegra & 105), the proper set up and adjustment of the brake caliper should actually have one brake pad quite a bit closer to the rim than the other brake pad. While you can use these brakes when they are set up with the pads equidistant from the rim, but then with each brake application the closing action of the caliper ends up trying to shove the rim to one side.
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(This post was
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Matt Simkins
Apr 19, 10 20:24
Post #22 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [dark]
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Hello all,
The Simkins Designs Brakes are different from a regular dual pivot brake. There are only 2 arms. Shimano dual pivots have 3 arms. This design saves a little bit of weight, a little bit of cost, and makes for a more continuous surface for aerodynamics. A CDP brake contacts the rim one pad at a time, the Shimano design moves both pads at once. All brakes have to give a little to balance out after contacting the rim or else they would be pushing the rim into the fork.
The Coupled Dual Pivot (CDP) design would have been a bigger deal in the 90's when Shimano had a strangle hold on their patent and no one else could make dual pivot brakes. However, Shimano's patent expired a few years ago and nearly everyone copied it. There is a patent on the CDP design, but the Shimano design is free to use by everyone. If you look at the back part of the Egg Brake compared to most dual pivot brakes you will see that there actually is one less part. The guts of the brake are all housed in a very small volume between the arms.
Dual pivot brakes such as KCNC or EE Brakes also have a variation on the dual pivot design.
Regarding installation, the Egg Brake is harder to install because there is no space between the brake and the fork. This was done for aerodynamic reasons, but it does not leave much of a space to wrench to. As was commented earlier, there is a slot to fit an Allen wrench into, but you should not need that. This situation is not a result of the pivot design per-se. A CDP brake could be made to install as easily as a Shimano brake by adding more of a gap behind the arms, but then you would pay for it in watts later on.
Below is an exploded view of the first CDP brake, the Indy. That brake is no longer for sale, but it has the same type of configuration as the Egg Brake.
Matt Simkins
Tom Maliszewski
Apr 20, 10 5:12
Post #23 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Matt Simkins]
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To confirm my understanding from above: the pads should remain somewhat off-centered (with the non-cable side closer?) on the rim when there is no tension on the brake. When you pull the brakes, the cable side pad should hit first, and then the opposite pad will be drawn to the rim, creating even pressure on both sides.
Do you have a recommended gap between the pads and the rim, at least for the side that is close to the rim?
I have read and re-read the directions with the brake, but the left side/right side is not clear to me as it depends whether you are look at the front of the bike, sitting on the bike, and the front or rear brake. Depending which way you look at it, the cable side can be either the left or right side.
Thanks for your help, I just want to be sure I understand this correctly.
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docfuel
Apr 20, 10 6:51
Post #24 of 47
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [Matt Simkins]
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OT question here. Could you not have tilted the cable arm toward the right (as viewed from the front) to push the cable housing over in front of the head tube (or the seat stay on the rear)? Wouldn't this make the housing more aero by placing it more out of the air stream out there by itself?
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Matt Simkins
Apr 20, 10 9:05
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Re: Simkins Egg Brake Users - Installation help! [docfuel]
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There should be an equal gap on both sides.
1. Don't worry about the gap on the right pad at first.
2. You set the rim to pad gap by looking at the left pad only.
3. After it looks good you should tighten the recess nut that holds the brake to the frame.
4. If the brake spindle rotates when you snug the nut down (which usually will not happen) then that slot behind the brake will help hold the brake centered while you tighten the nut.
Keep in mind, the stainless steel shaft (spindle) that hold the brake to the frame is what positions the brake. When you tighten the nut, make sure that the steel part doesn't rotate. The spindle is spring loaded so it can move independently of the arms.
5. Lastly, you adjust the right pad to rim distance by adjusting the barrel adjuster.
Feel free to email me your number (simkinsdesigns.com) and a good time to call, I can talk you through it.
Hope that helps,
Matt
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