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Offseason Run Training - Advice

 
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djciii

Oct 6, 09 8:07

Post #1 of 43 (3605 views)
Offseason Run Training - Advice Quote | Reply
My season wrapped about a few weeks ago and how I am planning my offseason. I know that my run is by far my weakest leg and so that will be the focus of my offseason. My question to the ST gurus is what drills (don't tell me to just pound out the mileage) can I use to improve my running efficiency...such as improving leg turnover.
----------------------------------------------------
Don't let great ambitions overshadow small successes
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.
52races12months.wordpress.com


mike@wahoo

Oct 6, 09 8:09

Post #2 of 43 (3595 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I just started a program by McMillan running. I've heard it is highly effective but will know in a few weeks as I am training to qualify for Boston. I would check it out.
___________


big slow mover

Oct 6, 09 8:14

Post #3 of 43 (3584 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
the truth is: just pound out the mileage!


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 8:14

Post #4 of 43 (3584 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
forget drills. Do plyometrics.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3


djciii

Oct 6, 09 8:17

Post #5 of 43 (3571 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I was planning on integrating that into my workout also. But, there has to be some efficiency drills out there that will really help. You watch these elites and they really look so efficient and I can't think that comes from just pounding miles. They have developed form and those are the drills I am looking for.
----------------------------------------------------
Don't let great ambitions overshadow small successes
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.
52races12months.wordpress.com


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 8:33

Post #6 of 43 (3529 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
actually it's economy not efficiency you are searching for.

If your looking for the form they developed, then i'd run more and run faster some, it's a proven way to become more economical.

Again I'll give you the same advice. Forget drills do plyometrics. And run more.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3

(This post was edited by desert dude on Oct 6, 09 8:34)


kdw

Oct 6, 09 8:34

Post #7 of 43 (3519 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Here's a drill:

While you are pounding out the mileage in a sensible fashion described many times in posts by BarryP, spend a couple of minutes each run at a cadence of ~90.


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 8:40

Post #8 of 43 (3492 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [kdw] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
but the flaw with that is that as velocity increases so does stride rate and length. As velocity decreases so does stride length and rate. Those studies published in 1989 in regards to a cadence of about 90, if I remember correctly were done at the olympics looking at people racing. Now other people have taken those findings that when people are racing they run ~ 90 for a cadence and applied it to cover all velocities ignoring the research that shows cadence varies with velocity.

But I fully agree that he should read BarryP's post.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3

(This post was edited by desert dude on Oct 6, 09 8:42)


kdw

Oct 6, 09 8:44

Post #9 of 43 (3480 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Well, the 90 thing was mostly just to make the BarryP plan seem like a drill.


BarryP

Oct 6, 09 8:44

Post #10 of 43 (3482 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I wrote this a while ago. FWIW, I think much of it is a little over rated for longer events, but I don't think they hurt.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...untraining8;#1315768

What will help you the most, beyond the trials of miles, is simply doing a significant amount of faster running. This doesn't mean killer workouts. It means runnig faster.


Year round you should be incorporating 50 meter striders into your runs 2-4 days a week for 3-6 repetitions.

In addition to that, the occasional workout of 200 meter repeats at mile race pace will be beneficial as well.

In each of those workouts you will want to focus on good form. Look at the link above and read through and watch the videos to try to get an idea of what you should be working on. Some of the biggest problems people have are a low cadence, leaning too far forward or back, swinging their arms side to side, and over striding.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 8:46

Post #11 of 43 (3472 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
thats what i said you just elaborate so much better ;-)

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3


BarryP

Oct 6, 09 9:25

Post #12 of 43 (3432 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Nice comments on the cadence, BTW. 90 may be an unrealistic goal at lower paces, but I think it is true that a lot of novice runners tend to lope a little too much. In general I think a "catch up drill"....or rather, some focused efforts at higher cadences would be beneficial for most. I think the real key beyond that is to not force yourself into a cadence that isn't comfortable.


Again, a lot of this is accomplished simply through focused periods of faster running. The body has a way of doing what is necessary to make it more effecient (thus being more economical = ^ P) when forced to do so.


I like to think of these sessions as working out on the speed bag. When you punch a speed bag, you aren't making your self stronger, you are teaching your body how to hit and recoil as quickly as possible. Runners just need to do it with their feet.


.......oh yeah......no slapping or clomping the feet!!!
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


tigerchik

Oct 6, 09 12:25

Post #13 of 43 (3299 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Want to elaborate on these "plyometrics"? Anything specific? Are they approved for tigerchiks (I am guessing no)
_________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade
PM for blog accesshttp://www.tigerchik2.wordpress.com"]


tigerchik

Oct 6, 09 13:07

Post #14 of 43 (3252 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Do you think there's an optimal cadence for each velocity? IE if 90 strides a minute is what they come up in with that study for whatever those athletes' paces were... could you do the same for other paces?

Perhaps there's a relationship (beyond the one Brian has suggested). I see some math... stride length as a function of pace.. L(x) = ...
_________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade
PM for blog accesshttp://www.tigerchik2.wordpress.com"]

(This post was edited by tigerchik on Oct 6, 09 13:08)


BarryP

Oct 6, 09 13:44

Post #15 of 43 (3207 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [tigerchik] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I honestly don't know. I've always been of the 90 rpm camp, though I admittedly jog at a slightly lower cadence. I recently read an articel stating that if you asked a group of people to run 100 miles a week, one of two things would happen. Either they'd learn to shorten their cadence or they'd get injured.


At a minimum I would suggest that a cadence be "as high as comfortable" which should at least get people out of the problem of over striding.


Regarding plyometrics, I'm surprised Brian is bringing them up. What next? Weightlifting???!!! ; ^ ) It's not that they aren't effective. I just think they are more of the 1% solution and not part of the other 99% that most people need.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


tigerchik

Oct 6, 09 14:48

Post #16 of 43 (3163 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I know why Brian brought up plyometrics; we chatted briefly about it while I was at tri camp. Studies show...

I'm still working on taking shorter strides. I'm a "lopey" runner.
_________________________________________
Proud member of FISHTWITCH: beating you to T1 for over a decade
PM for blog accesshttp://www.tigerchik2.wordpress.com"]


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 18:40

Post #17 of 43 (3051 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
maybe a bit higher then 1%! But no substitute for putting in the miles.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3


eDeRoche

Oct 6, 09 18:49

Post #18 of 43 (3039 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
So with that said ("no substitute for putting in the miles"), that is: what happens when said individual's running kinematics are so off the wall horrible that with all of these magical miles being piled on he/she develops an injury? Does this person simply need to stretch more, perform more plyometrics or even worse, place them into a motion control shoe or even an orthotic because we are all "supposed to run the way God made us to run?" which is how by the way?

Not throwing attitude at your necessarily Desert Dude but man... something has to be discussed here!
"Spectacular achievements are always preceded by spectacular preparation."


NiceTriCoaching

Oct 6, 09 19:11

Post #19 of 43 (2885 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [eDeRoche] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Typically the off season is spent building one's base. Plyometrics and LSR's (long slow runs) are good base builders. I am in the same boat as the author of the thread, and am anxiously awaiting for the dust to settle from this debate to see what the consensus is.

http://www.nicetrionline.com

Professional Triathlon Coaching and Zipp wheel rentals located in beautiful Canandaigua NY (yes...close to Rochester NY)


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 19:17

Post #20 of 43 (2883 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [eDeRoche] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
>95% of people will self select the proper stride rate and length for themselves.

Go read the research on Chi running and injury rates. It's probably not on the Chi running site though, might be bad for business.

I'm personally at about a N=9 (which I might add is ~75% of the people I know running in said fad shoe) for people injured bc they thought the latest fad running shoe would be a good choice for them.

Sure there are people with mechanics so bad that they need to do something to correct their poor mechanics. the majority of people though, instead of looking for some magic bullet to make them run faster, if they ran more and thought less they would probably end up fitter, more economical (therefore faster) and probably more durable against running injuries.

Sadly as ST so well demonstrates over and over and over many people are looking for the 1% solution and ignoring the 95% solution to their running problem.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3


charris

Oct 6, 09 20:48

Post #21 of 43 (2845 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Paging Dr. Daniels...Dr. Jack Daniels...

I'm guessing this may be what you were referring to - I'd be interested in reading the latest if you have any links.

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STRIDE RATE: A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION

One of the things that I teach new runners is some basics about running cadence, or stride rate. Almost all elite distance runners (both men and women) tend to stride at the same rate: 180 or more steps per minute. This means that they are taking 90 or more steps with each foot each minute, a rate that doesn’t vary much even when they're not running fast. The main change that occurs as runners go faster is in stride length; the faster they go, the longer the stride becomes, with little change in the rate of leg turnover.

The stride rate many beginning runners take is quite different from that of elite runners. When I have new runners count their own stride rates, I find that very few (sometimes none out of a class of 25 or 30) take as many as 180 steps per minute. In fact, some turn over as slowly as 160 times per minute. The main disadvantage of this slower turnover is that the slower you take steps, the longer you spend in the air, and the longer you’re in the air the higher you displace your body mass and the harder you hit the ground on landing. When you consider that many running injuries are the result of landing shock, it's not surprising that experienced runners tend to turn over faster than beginning runners do.

If a group of beginners were required to start running 100 miles a week, two things would probably occur: Many runners would hurt themselves, and many who didn’t get hurt would adjust to making quicker, lighter steps. I try to save runners a lot of grief by encouraging them to convert to a stride rate associated with less landing shock and more efficient use of energy.

Several studies have been conducted on the energy demands of different stride frequencies, and it turns out that experienced runners are most efficient at their chosen rate of turnover; longer or shorter strides (which mean slower or faster stride rates) result in greater energy demands. However, when working with less-experienced runners, running economy can often be improved by converting slow-turnover runners into runners who use a faster rate.

My wife and I spent most of our time at the 1984 Olympics counting and measuring stride rates and stride lengths of male and female runners competing in distance events from 800 meters up to the marathon. The results were convincing—the fastest turnover rates were among the 800-meter specialists, and next fastest were the 1,500-meter runners, but from the 3,000-meter distance on up to the marathon there was little variation in turnover rate. In fact, the women took only a few steps more per minute than did the larger men, who were often running considerably faster as a result of longer stride length.

Next time you watch a marathon race on television, count how many times the right arm of one of the runners swings forward in 20 or 30 seconds. Use the recorded number to calculate a one-minute rate (of course you’re accepting the probability that the runner is swinging his or her right arm as often as he or she is taking steps). Try counting steps of the same runner at various stages of the race. Chances are good that strong runners won't lose the cadence they began with. We often talk about getting into a good running rhythm, and the one you want to get into is one that involves 180 or more steps per minute.

If you count your own stride rate and find it’s considerably slower than what I'm suggesting, try to work on a shorter, lighter stride. Imagine that you're running over a field of raw eggs and you don’t want to break any of them—run *over* the ground, not into it. Try to get the feeling that your legs are part of a wheel that just rolls along, not two pogo sticks that bounce along.

If you feel that you need practice improving your stride rate, focus on this during easy runs. Rate usually goes up for slower-turnover people when they race shorter distances, so you may not need to think about it during faster quality training. When practicing turning over faster on easy training runs, don’t let the fact that you’re making quicker steps force you to run fasten Try to run at your normal training speed, but do it with a shorter, quicker stride rate. With practice, y0u’ll find it becomes quite natural and comfortable.

From: Daniels' Running Formula, Second Edition, pp93-94. Apologies for typos - ocr'd. And thanks to the good Dr.
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eDeRoche

Oct 6, 09 20:52

Post #22 of 43 (2842 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I know what you are saying Brian and appreciate your argument so no worries there. However, I think that with any running "technique" system there are a few things that need to be addressed that are not on most occasions.
#1) It can and does take Months, Years or even multiple years to acquire/change movement patterns
#2) no matter what way anyone slices it, modern running shoes with narrow toe boxes, highly cushioned heals and motion control are not designed to support the foot in the way that the running technique systems attempt to alter.
#3) With the adaptation to any NEW movement pattern not only does the nervous system (CNS and Peripheral) need to adapt but also the soft tissues (tendons, ligaments and muscles) and bones need to adjust to the new axis of rotation (perhaps), stresses and strains and one may go through a SERIES of set-backs before giant leaps forward are made.

I would argue also that the majority of people out there actually do need to work on HOW they move. Take into consideration the swimmer, or beginning swimmer for that matter; no idea of how to actually "catch" the water or how to make his/her vessel longer/streamlined and how to relax in the water... That person can hammer out yardage/mileage in the water but on most occasions, as you have seen, they develop "overuse" injuries such as "swimmers Shoulder" most commonly and see a significant plateau in performance as a result of their bodies INEFFICIENCY in the water. So, in that case we/you most likely would Rx swimming drills to enhance how the same person swims and work on all that they need to work on. Now, back to the runner... Why are they any different than the swimmer?

I say these things only because in my practice I see so many athletes come in complaining of overuse injuries not even close to 95% related to not doing enough but rather 99% doing too much of the WRONG THING (Moving less than optimally). I teach this stuff to other health-care providers and athletes and my PP presentations are riddled with pier reviewed research supporting all of this.


However, here is where I am in support of what you are saying; 9 times out of 10 people want a quick fix. If they come to see me I will get them out of pain but tell them that unless they are willing to go the extra mile with rehab, including altering mechanics (doing a few very simple changes that have been beaten to death on this board), the injury(ies) are likely to recur. As as coach, you/I know too that many age-group triathletes want to be able to run a 35min 10k off the bike on 15miles/week and that just is not going to happen.

as for Fad shoes... Well, don't even get me started on shoe selection! I have research out the wazoo refuting everything you/they/ST has ever thought to be true. Kinda scary who is designing shoes actually... they sure are not biomechanists or health-care providers I can tell you that!
"Spectacular achievements are always preceded by spectacular preparation."


desert dude

Oct 6, 09 21:12

Post #23 of 43 (2832 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [charris] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
My question to you is do you actually understand what he is saying? That he is not advocating 180 steps per minute but self selection? That he is advocating better mechanics and not a one size fits all stride rate?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog, @accelerate3


bhc

Oct 7, 09 6:46

Post #24 of 43 (2778 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Very interesting stuff!! Can someone please elaborate on: "#2) no matter what way anyone slices it, modern running shoes with narrow toe boxes, highly cushioned heals and motion control are not designed to support the foot in the way that the running technique systems attempt to alter."

Thanks
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(This post was edited by mtnvet on Oct 7, 09 6:47)


eDeRoche

Oct 7, 09 8:40

Post #25 of 43 (2746 views)
Re: Offseason Run Training - Advice [mtnvet] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
elaboration:
- "motion control" is designed to inhibit or atleast decrease the rate and degree of pronation of the foot when the heal hits the ground at initial ground contact etc.... with ANY of the running technique systems including; Chi, Evolution, POSE, motion control shoes are essentially useless as when the foot lands directly UNDER the body the need for a medial posted shoe is null and void as you are no longer landing heal first.
- Narrow toe boxes are made that way for style purposes and if one is to look at old school running techniques (landing with an extended knee at foot strike, reaching out to gain as much ground as one can on each foot strike and then aggressively pushing backward and "toeing off")... the width and shape of the toe box will assist someone with this way of running as it allows for the motion to occur in that the "roll through" is maximized. Not to mention "Toe Spring" which is where the toes are made to be extended.. show me a 'normal' foot where the toes/Proximal MTP's are extended?
- highly cushioned heals while they may allow for force attenuation at first, have been PROVEN to actually cause a longer stance time which, as research has shown, leads to overuse injuries such as ITBS, PF, Achilles Tendonopathy etc.

So... in short, if one is to begin into learning a new way to move, stick with the shoes that they have used for awhile. Then, as one transitions into feeling more comfortable with the change of movement patterns, then and only then should they begin to think about what shoes may be a better choice. Typically weaining from a motion control shoe into a light weight trainer then into more of a racing flat type shoe. You don't need all of the "bells and whistles" of a shoe when you move more toward the optimal.

ERIK
"Spectacular achievements are always preceded by spectacular preparation."

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