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difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running

 

   


scj

Dec 8, 08 7:54

Post #1 of 22 (8861 views)
difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running Quote | Reply

what exactly does steady state run mean? I mean when are those runs done in a given time?


Fleck

Dec 8, 08 7:58

Post #2 of 22 (8860 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My understanding is that steady state is really your regular long run, running pace. "Tempo" is an effort that you can hold for roughly 20 - 25 minutes. So for many people that's about 5K race pace or a bit slower - somewhere between your 5K race pace and 10K race pace. It's a great intensity to run at, as it really pushes some key fitness parameter buttons.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


Daremo

Dec 8, 08 8:16

Post #3 of 22 (8831 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

His tempo corresponds to your 1/2 mary. pace and slightly faster, or basically your threshold pace about :20 - :30 OVER your 5k pace. Steady state times are just above your 1/2 pace, and are NOT in line with your long run pace. They are basically what would be prescribed for longer tempo runs (40 minutes to an hour) from other coaching systems.

Again, that is what his system prescribes, so others' definitions of what they say a tempo or steady state is may differ.

_____________________________________________
Rick, USATF coach
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib


dfsbwc

Dec 8, 08 8:20

Post #4 of 22 (8824 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think it depends on who is using the term what it means. But using McMillan I think a steady state run would be about 10 seconds per mile slower than a tempo run, but you would run somewhat longer.

So if you run a 20 minute tempo at 6:00 pace, you might run a 35 minute steady state run at 6:10


Fleck

Dec 8, 08 9:00

Post #5 of 22 (8793 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Daremo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Again, that is what his system prescribes, so others' definitions of what they say a tempo or steady state is may differ.

This is true. Their is a great deal of variation in this area.

I was told years ago that a Tempo run was done at or just below your LT, which would make sense if it is to last 20 - 25 minutes. I was also told that this is a very key an important type of running as it teaches you to hopefully run relaxed at a fairly high pace for an extended period of time and learn how to surf along that edge of your LT. True LT is about what you can hold for one hour - so this in theory should be a bit faster. I seem to recall that the Kenyans and Ethiopians do a lot of running at this level of effort - much more than what would be considered "normal"
.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


cushlash

Dec 8, 08 9:04

Post #6 of 22 (8786 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My understanding of McMillan Steady State vs. Tempo is more closely corresponded to Jack Daniels Threshold Pace vs. Marathon Pace. So a Steady State run is meant to be hard and long like most of you have said. Steady state I would suggest would be no longer than an hour unless you are really close to a Marathon race and then you might do a long steady state run of 90 minutes with a good warm up so that it is a quality pace simulation of what you might feel in the race.


ianpeace

Dec 8, 08 9:12

Post #7 of 22 (8776 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is a really good question actually because there is NOT a fixed definition of "tempo" in the running world - for some it relates to 10k pace for others 5k. Some folks use it to mean shorter than a race distance and a bit faster than that race pace while some use it to mean longer than a race distance and a bit slower than race pace. We even hear people go way far afield and say things like: "I had some real problems in the first few miles of my marathon so at mile 5 I decided to make it just a temp run" WTF?

I kinda like the term "steady state" better as it makes clear the intention of a sustained duration of running (as apposed to intervals, repetitions, fartleks, descending bits of fast running, etc.). Then all you'd need to do is attach a distance specific term or a run pace or an intensity (although I feel intensity detracts just a bit from the intention).

So you'd come up with something like: run 8 miles: 1/2 mile warm, 1 mi build then 4 miles at 10k steady state pace, 1/2 mile cool down.

Me likey steady state.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @TriCoachIan


scj

Dec 8, 08 9:21

Post #8 of 22 (8757 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [ianpeace] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

so for shorter duration run, let's say between 25-30 min, tempo run is a good way to do it. otherwise, if run are longer but you still need to push it to the tempo edge, steady state is the way to go? that would sound like a good workout to me. Once a week longer duration steaday state and switch it up next week with a shorter duration tempo run.


Flanagan

Dec 8, 08 9:25

Post #9 of 22 (8751 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow...I have never seen such horrific definitions of "tempo". Tempo is not 5K pace, nor is it is a pace someone *can* hold for 20-25 minutes, nor is it even really 10K pace. Tempo should be what someone can hold for 60-75 minutes of best effort running. A tempo run should be that pace for 20 minutes, then add about :05 seconds per mile for every 5-10 minutes you add to the length of your tempo run, up to 60 minutes.

It is scary to hear people suggest a weekly tempo run at a 5-10K pace. That will destroy the VAST majority of people.

The McMillan Calculator, from what I remember, does a really good job of giving tempo pace based on the definition given above.


Flanagan

Dec 8, 08 9:28

Post #10 of 22 (8746 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just looked at calculator and wanted to add that steady state seems to be along the lines of "long tempo" as I believe Daniels calls it. Don't make these runs more regular than 1-1.5 times per week.


ianpeace

Dec 8, 08 9:31

Post #11 of 22 (8742 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You've got great thinking going on in your planning and you've made a pretty clear distinction in the meaning of your terms (tempo & steady state). You should feel confident plowing forward with that but remember that not everyone agrees on what those terms mean so if you invite someone to join you for a "10k tempo run" be ready for them to expect something else.

My mother in law is a Brit. She uses the term "quite" to mean "sorta but not really"...as in, "yes, I saw Baz Luhrman's new epic film Australia and it was quite good" and by that she'll mean it wasn't as good as I had hoped it to be. I was born here in 'Merica and I use "quite" to mean "very". So after eating a meal that she prepared I'll say "wow! that was quite good" and by that I'll mean that her roasted chicken was delicious.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @TriCoachIan


el fuser

Dec 8, 08 10:23

Post #12 of 22 (8703 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why guess?

From McMillan:

Steady-State Runs
Steady-state runs were once a staple in the training programs of U.S. distance runners but somehow fell out of favor. Runners now seem to have only two speeds, slow and fast - no in-between. But the steady-state run is one of the most beneficial types of workouts especially as you complete your base training and during the initial parts of your Stamina phase (see Lecture 5). The appropriate pace range for steady-state runs is between your 30K and half-marathon race pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 83 and 87% of maximum and the runs should last at least 25 minutes and can go as long as an hour and 15 minutes.


Tempo Runs

Tempo runs are slightly more intense than steady-state runs and are designed to increase your stamina. As the name suggests, you really improve your running tempo or rhythm with these workouts. They last between 15 and 30 minutes and are run between your 12K and half-marathon race pace. Tempo runs are meant to be "comfortably hard" so don't push the pace. Your heart rate will likely be between 85 and 90% of max.


Daremo

Dec 8, 08 10:37

Post #13 of 22 (8692 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Wow...I have never seen such horrific definitions of "tempo". Tempo is not 5K pace, nor is it is a pace someone *can* hold for 20-25 minutes, nor is it even really 10K pace. Tempo should be what someone can hold for 60-75 minutes of best effort running.

Sorry, hadn't gotten back to the thread or I would have said the same thing. ;-) (Actually, I kinda already did).

"Tempo" is credited to Daniels and is really described as just that ^^^^ but a lot of people have adapted the term to mean any sort of steady run above your typical general aerobic or long run.

The reason I emphasized the "within his system" part is that if you are going to follow a specific training philosophy than it is critical that you understand the terms that the coach is working with so that you hit the workouts in the proper fashion. I personally subscribe to the Daniels/Pfitzinger definition for it, and will use it accordingly.

But ..... the great thing about McMillan is that if you plug in your current race results he will basically lay out exactly what pace ranges to work with. So once you have a grasp of those and what he means by each pace range, then you can incoporate it into your training.

Again, I tend to follow Pfitzinger-Douglas for plans and apply the pace ranges from McMillan to get what I want to do for a workout. It is all about understanding and working within a system. If after a few cycles that system isn't working for you, change to a different one (or better yet, talk with a coach to see what you may be doing wrong).

Just my thoughts.

_____________________________________________
Rick, USATF coach
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib


scj

Dec 8, 08 11:21

Post #14 of 22 (8657 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [el fuser] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

just had some doubts regarding the frequency of these runs/week. I was not sure whether to have one tempo and one steady state when i am only running 4-5 times a week with a mileage topping out at about 30-35 mpw.


Flanagan

Dec 8, 08 12:46

Post #15 of 22 (8617 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Daremo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

oh...i missed your definition. i like it! i'm pretty sure we are on the same page...

i have lots of experience with tempo which is too fast and too often. it has always had some baaaaaaaaad results.


Fleck

Dec 8, 08 14:43

Post #16 of 22 (8568 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It is scary to hear people suggest a weekly tempo run at a 5-10K pace. That will destroy the VAST majority of people.

Why? How?





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


Flanagan

Dec 8, 08 15:00

Post #17 of 22 (8553 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
It is scary to hear people suggest a weekly tempo run at a 5-10K pace. That will destroy the VAST majority of people.

Why? How?

Huge risk of injury. First of all, it is effectively impossible to do a tempo run at 5K pace. If you run a 5K in 17:00, then by definition you can't run 20-25 minutes at your 5K pace. Further, 10K pace is just too fast for tempo pace. Maybe it works for you, Fleck, but it will injure most people. The recovery cost will be too high.

Go find me someone who does 45+ runs per year of 25 minutes at 10K pace. For every person you find, I'm willing to bet you will find dozens of other people who get injured doing the same thing.

Alternatively, finding someone who does 45+ runs per year of 25 minutes at 10-13.1 mile pace is not difficult, and it is likely those people will have improved dramatically.


JoeO

Dec 8, 08 15:20

Post #18 of 22 (8540 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Wow...I have never seen such horrific definitions of "tempo". Tempo is not 5K pace, nor is it is a pace someone *can* hold for 20-25 minutes, nor is it even really 10K pace. Tempo should be what someone can hold for 60-75 minutes of best effort running. A tempo run should be that pace for 20 minutes, then add about :05 seconds per mile for every 5-10 minutes you add to the length of your tempo run, up to 60 minutes.


I think the problem is that "tempo" is a bit of a nebulous term. I think people treat "tempo" as if it were one pace when it is not. Tempo, at least as I have always understood it, refers to a range of paces.

What you are describing above is the classic rule-of-thumb for lactate threshold (LT) pace. LT pace is clearly very specific. But that's pretty much the high-end of tempo. On the flipside, while tempo may be as fast as LT pace, it may also be slower. Longer tempo runs, done at slower than LT pace, are a staple of great runners. Even a marathon paced run is arguably a tempo.


(This post was edited by JoeO on Dec 8, 08 15:30)


Fleck

Dec 8, 08 15:28

Post #19 of 22 (8534 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Huge risk of injury.

Flanagan,

I will admit that I may have overreached a bit on the paces, but the connection with a higher risk of injury is a myth. If done right, their is no higher risk.

Many rec runners and triathletes in particular would do well to introduce a weekly session where they are spending increasing amounts of time at between their 5k and 10K race pace - up to about 20 minutes. Not every week all year, but in race prep and in race season to be sure, if not racing. The problem with many of these folks is that they are in the all LSD all the time rut and any amount of faster paced running is going to improve things for them.
Racing a 5K twice a month would be perfect. But many eschew this and focus instead on running much longer races like the marathon further drilling that good-old LSD pace into the body.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


Flanagan

Dec 8, 08 15:33

Post #20 of 22 (8529 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [JoeO] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't disagree with that at all. However, that is more of a modified tempo pace, based upon the added distance. However, I do believe too many people attempt too hard of a tempo pace too often.


Daremo

Dec 8, 08 18:37

Post #21 of 22 (8492 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Many rec runners and triathletes in particular would do well to introduce a weekly session where they are spending increasing amounts of time at between their 5k and 10K race pace - up to about 20 minutes. Not every week all year, but in race prep and in race season to be sure, if not racing. The problem with many of these folks is that they are in the all LSD all the time rut and any amount of faster paced running is going to improve things for them. Racing a 5K twice a month would be perfect. But many eschew this and focus instead on running much longer races like the marathon further drilling that good-old LSD pace into the body.

Sure, that falls in the realm of another misunderstood term of "speed work." Again, working within the system you are using it becomes critical to understand the purpose and pace of the workout.

McMillan lays that out for you in his charts with various 600 - 1,600 pace ranges for short and long distance runners and whether it is an interval or sprint workout.

Daniels breaks his out into I and R runs with the I being around 5k pace and R being slightly faster. His I work is rarely over 1,200 except for the 5 minute and under runners. His "ideal" I workbout would be no more than 5 minutes per interval. The R stuff is shorter because of the higher intensity.

Pfitzinger-Douglas lay theirs out as either strides mixed into regular runs or as 5k paced repeats varying from 600 - 1,200.

But none of those things are in the "tempo" range. They are faster and shorter. This is why people will typically respond with the cost of recovery and chance of injury. You are putting a workload on your body that you would normally only do on race day. A very generic rule of thumb is for every mile raced to allow the same number of days for full recovery. If you run 20 minutes at 5k pace, for the average AGer, you are talking basically a 5k. To comfortably recover, you may need up to 3 days in newer runners. Less in more experienced ones. Once a week? Sure, you could do that. But you sacrifice some of your other sessions during the week to do such a thing. Which is why the shorter repeats are prescribed with equal or slightly less than equal recovery bouts between the intervals.

Just some more thoughts .............

_____________________________________________
Rick, USATF coach
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

(This post was edited by Daremo on Dec 8, 08 18:39)


lschmidt

Dec 9, 08 13:06

Post #22 of 22 (8392 views)
Re: difference between steady state and tempo run in mcmillan running [scj] (Deleted by lschmidt) [In reply to]

 

   
 
 
 



Winter stationary bike training
Will you use a stationary trainer this winter, is it a smart (e.g., Kickr, Computrainer) or a dumb (typical mag or fluid) trainer, and do you already own it?
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