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More is More vs Run fast to get fast
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zone2
Apr 16, 07 10:29
Post #1 of 66
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More is More vs Run fast to get fast
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I'm confused, and looking for the ST gurus to straighten me out. On the boards there is the big mantra of more is more, and how great it is to slow down, increase frequency, and swim/bike/run a lot. From what I've read, training at a lower heartrate and putting in a lot of miles is the way to improve. Bake a cake, so to say.
But on the other hand, I've seen a handful of posts saying the way to get fast is to train fast. If you want to run fast, for example, run fast in training. Bike fast. Swim fast. You've got to get your body used to going fast in order to get fast.
These two schools of thought seem contradictory to me. How am I supposed to slow down and put in lots of slow miles and bake that cake when at the same time I'm supposed to be going fast to get faster.
Any thoughts?
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trailman73
Apr 16, 07 10:43
Post #2 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [zone2]
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base building is typically a winter ritual, then once you biuld a solid base you add intensity to it. it is a longer gradual process.
Spindogg
Apr 16, 07 10:44
Post #3 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [zone2]
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I'll take a stab at this but mind you I am not a coach just an athlete who's been doing this a long time and has big goals.
My take is that you can't think of more is more as a blanket meaning the same thing for each sport. More is more is increasing the workload to enhance further adaptation---this could be more volume or intensity or both. That's the hard part to figure out but see below.
Now my coach (me) has me do a lot more intensity on the bike and swim then he does on the run. He has me running a lot of miles at the minimum intensity for aerobic development. He also has me do a hills interval session once a week and maybe a tempo run both at high heart rates and a long run at low HR. On the bike and swim he has me doing higher heart rates much more often.
My $.02 on more is more: volume and intensity on swim and bike; on the run it means volume and be careful with intensity.
QT2 Systems
(This post was
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devashish_paul
Apr 16, 07 10:46
Post #4 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [zone2]
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Paulo never said to not run fast or do anything fast. He simply said the more training load apply the faster you'll get. At some times in your program you'll get more training load through volume. Other times, more training load through intensity. It is just a matter of balancing the two to what you can absorb and recover from. I don't think he ever suggested to not go hard.
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triguy42
Apr 16, 07 11:07
Post #5 of 66
(2354 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [devashish paul]
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This is a funny thread coming from someone with the screen name "zone2"
Anyway, devp is basically right, very few people here have advocated just running lots of slow miles month after month. This is potentially effective if your average "slow pace" is a 5 minute mile, but not an effective way of increasing speed and performance. Most (summarizing what I've seen) have advocated something like this (assuming your target race pace is an 8:00/mile):
Run a lot (65%) in the 8:30-9:00 pace range.
Run a bunch (but not as much-25%) in the tempo (7:45-8:15) range.
Run some (but not a lot-10%) longer and medium distance intervals (0.5mi and 1mi repeats, 6:00-6:45 range) and pickups, etc.
This puts a lot of emphasis on quality miles that aren't too hard on your body, and will still be run with the same basic form as your race efforts. As an 8:00 pace person your form will likely suffer if you actually do running at >9:00, and you'll effectively be training yourself to run poorly and slowly. Take a look at the McMillan running calculator for general numbers that correspond to your actual running pace. The percent numbers are just there for a general idea, I didn't get those from anyone.
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devashish_paul
Apr 16, 07 11:15
Post #6 of 66
(2325 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [Spindogg]
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Hey Spindogg....are you sure that you aren't my coach? I'm doing the same...For run speed, I think 10x20 seconds acceleration with 40 min cruise is enough to get the legs moving quickly if you are already doing lots intensity on the swim-bike. Lots of high speed running on fried legs is a recipe for broken body parts!
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 11:22
Post #7 of 66
(2284 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [triguy42]
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I do 100% of my running in training in the 9:00 to 9:30 pace cross country. I only open it up in races. Guess this is why I am a BOPer. Still trying to keep the darn
knees healthy.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
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devashish_paul
Apr 16, 07 11:24
Post #8 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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....not true...you race often enough that you are likely getting enough speed...keeping the knees healthy is better than hammering intervals in training and having broken joints at the start line.
Spindogg
Apr 16, 07 11:25
Post #9 of 66
(2266 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [devashish paul]
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Hey Dev-
I've been in a run focus for the winter building up mileage and also trying to lift threshold run speed. Just PR'd at a half marathon so now one of my objectives is to maintain and improve that run threshold speed throughout the season (hill intervals, tempo work, some track work in another month or so). Run LT speed has been a limiter for me in the past.
Looking forward to Irontour and maybe Epic man. I'm also putting on a training weekend on the LP course for our GMM team in May and we're staying at the jackrabbit!! Email me if you're interested in coming.
QT2 Systems
ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:29
Post #10 of 66
(2251 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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Speed should have nothing to do with your knees, and in fact, causes one to find a stride where he is most efficient. Slow running all the time does little to give one leg speed, ie: turnover. Your type of training (fartlek) is very effective as you do work in unstructured intervals, but you also need to get on pavement some to prepare you for the race surface. Remember we need to train for what we face race day?
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 11:36
Post #11 of 66
(2229 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [devashish paul]
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I agree, but no one has mentioned that. Depending on variables, everyone is different.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 11:40
Post #12 of 66
(2217 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [tri-3]
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I never train on pavement unless it was right before a marathon. Otherwise it has been 100% cross country, and have been pretty happy with the results for me.
I still think my masters swimming has been the best training that has helped my running get faster. Great zero impact on the knees. Nice setting new PB's at 50.
But, I think I am at the top of the hill now. :o(
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
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ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:40
Post #13 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [devashish paul]
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in 30 plus years of watching track and road racing, I've never seen a knee injury from fast running. What's that all about?
In Reply To:
....not true...you race often enough that you are likely getting enough speed...keeping the knees healthy is better than hammering intervals in training and having broken joints at the start line.
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:45
Post #14 of 66
(2193 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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I'm older than you, and although I do a lot of trail running, one can only acquire the turnover to be able to run fast on a harder surface, IMO. And my knees are fine, excpet for the bike crash caused surgeries.
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 11:49
Post #15 of 66
(2176 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [tri-3]
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Sorry, I guess I am the exception then. (Seems pretty normal on ST I never seem to fit into the standard mold. :o) ) There is never one size fits all.
If the 5K at stanford was really 5K, doing a 6:42 pace for me was not bad for only slow training on soft surfaces.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html
(This post was
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by h2ofun on Apr 16, 07 11:55)
ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:51
Post #16 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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But one can always find a better, faster way....
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:53
Post #17 of 66
(2155 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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Actually, I should shut up. You're possibly in my age group....
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
MuffinTop
Apr 16, 07 11:53
Post #18 of 66
(2156 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [zone2]
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"More is More vs Run fast to get fast" is kind of the triathlon version of "Six of one VS half a dozen of the other"
"More is More" is more general than the old "volume vs intensity" question - which, I think, is what you mean to be asking. It actually is a reference to training LOAD, not number of training hours. Training load is the cumulative stress placed on your body by all of the training that you do. That is, it is a function of volume AND intensity. To illustrate:
Imagine that your training week consists of a 1 hour run each day at 75% vo2max. To increase this training load, you might:
1. Add 1 more 1 hour run at 75% vo2max. (increase volume)
2. Increase the intensity of one of your runs to 90% of vo2max (increase intensity)
Either one of the two changes above would be "more". I'm not asserting that the two changes are equivalent, but each one represents an increase in training load over the baseline outlined above. So in order to increase training load (ie, "do more"), you have to increase volume or intensity or both.
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h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 11:54
Post #19 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [tri-3]
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I am 50. Na, dont worry about me, I am just a BOPer trying to have fun with my family in this sport.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html
Frank Day
Apr 16, 07 11:58
Post #20 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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You aren't giving your training with PC's any credit for your running improvement? :-(
--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
ggeiger
Apr 16, 07 11:59
Post #21 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [h2ofun]
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[reply]I am 50. Na, dont worry about me, I am just a BOPer trying to have fun with my family in this sport.
Dave[/reply]
We know better......how much is that bike? Anyway, keep having fun.
Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com
Professional photographer, coach and triathlete
Ironman Wisco scenic photos at:
http://ggeiger.zenfolio.com/p875100738
klehner
Apr 16, 07 12:04
Post #22 of 66
(2103 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [triguy42]
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In Reply To:
Take a look at the McMillan running calculator for general numbers that correspond to your actual running pace.
Yow, I just bought myself a world of hurt:
Steady-State Runs
6:11 to 6:22
Tempo Runs
5:55 to 6:11
Tempo Intervals
5:50 to 6:03
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 12:06
Post #23 of 66
(2089 views)
Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [Frank Day]
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To be honest, I have not been able to use as much as I want since the weather this winter has been too nice and 99% of my riding is outside.
But, I was on them last week.
But, lots of things I believe help me. PC's. Cranks. More volume. MORE swimming. Luck.
I just hate it when some say there is only one way to improvements. And I hate it when some say nothing I use makes any improvements.
Oh well, I love to try new stuff.
Not selling my 200mm PC's anytime soon. :o)
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html
Cousin Elwood
Apr 16, 07 12:07
Post #24 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [zone2]
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It's much simpler than people make it. The best way to get really, really fast is to train really, really fast for a really, really long time,viz:
Start your day with a swim workout of 12X400, very fast with about 30 sec recovery.
Run 1-2 hours in the morning at near threshold
Bike hill repeats of 8X5 minutes with a coast down recovery
Finish your day with a track workout of 16X100 with 300 jog recovery
Repeat daily...
There's only one problem with this schedule, and that is that unless you're a sub 8:00 Ironman with 10+ years of training, you can't recover from this and even trying to do it will fix you so you can't get out of bed tomorrow.
So we face several important principles:
- Go long (not necessarily slow, but mostly HZ 2) in order to train your body to maximize fuel efficiency (utilize fat) and increase lipolytic (fat burning) and glyclytic (glycogen or carb burning) enzymes
- Go HARD, including hills and speedwork, to increase muscle strength muscular endurance and explosiveness
- Go fast on the track to improve efficiency (technique) and make it seem slower when you're running at race pace.
The last two also increase your body's ability to recover from anaerobic activity, because anything in HZ 3 and above is recruiting fast twitch muscles sufficiently to generate lactic acid.
Our bodies adapt to exercise stress in a linear fashion, which is to say that to gain endurance - go long; to gain speed - go fast.
So go as long or as fast as you can (and still recover for tomorrow). Then rinse and repeat. The trick is finding out how much your body can absorb without injury or overtraining.
Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
h2ofun
Apr 16, 07 12:08
Post #25 of 66
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Re: More is More vs Run fast to get fast [tri-3]
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WAY too much money. I hope to have it ready with the new parts to race my first Oly distance this year on the 29th in Sac.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html
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