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Question on Morality for you Christians
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BarryP
Mar 19, 07 12:47
Post #501 of 608
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Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [Terra-Man]
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Actually I think it is exactly one larger.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Terra-Man
Mar 19, 07 12:56
Post #502 of 608
(3402 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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I believe in one God. I have a friend that believes in three.
By comparison, Ed believes in 30 and his buddy Jimmy in 34.
Which is a more significant difference, 1 vs. 3, or 30 vs. 34?
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doug in co
Mar 19, 07 14:33
Post #503 of 608
(3394 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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In Reply To:
1) Are your moral values based entirely on what God wants (or what you think he wants)?
2) Hypotheticaly speaking, IF you discovered that there was no God, what would you do differently?
1. of course not
2. nothing.
There is no God but man, and though his prophets are legion, they are delusional.
Actually it was when I realised that 2. applied, that I ceased being an observant Christian.
I like this analysis,
http://www.tassos-oak.com/online/08ethics.html
1. the basis in unity of being
2. the basis in sociality
3. the basis in empathy
There are many ways to arrive at a sound theory of ethics.
----
"everyone wants to run like the wind, but the wind wants to run like Rudisha"
@crazynairobian
Casey
Mar 19, 07 14:56
Post #504 of 608
(3384 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [doug in co]
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Actually it was when I realised that 2. applied, that I ceased being an observant Christian.
What is an observant Christian?
__________________________________________________
You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
slowguy
Mar 19, 07 15:50
Post #505 of 608
(3379 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr]
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"Its not “societal factors or personal opinion”. Its societal factors to include: parents, community, law, books, personal experience, a bunch of other stuff, AND, personal judgement. "
Ok, I apologize for not typing in "and." I thought that was understood.
"Its a bogus characterization of non-religious"
No, it's not. For one thing, it is not a characterization of any PEOPLE. It is a characterization of the moral landscape. Secondly, when everyone gets to choose their own way, and there's nothing to prevent anyone from going in their own direction, that is anarchy.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
doug in co
Mar 19, 07 15:50
Post #506 of 608
(3378 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [Casey]
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practicing the outward forms of Christianity.. governed by the laws and traditions of ibid..
----
"everyone wants to run like the wind, but the wind wants to run like Rudisha"
@crazynairobian
slowguy
Mar 19, 07 15:56
Post #507 of 608
(3377 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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" Although instead of "moral anarchy" I would describe it as "moral chaos." "
No difference.
"As is evident in this thread, it is very difficult for a religious person to understand how one can make a moral jugement without a supernatural source for that mora"
You keep making this same erroneous statement. I have no problem understanding how you make a moral judgement. What I have problem understanding is how you do not seem to see that if everyone is making their own choice, and you extrapolate that to the whole world, that is moral "anarchy" or "chaos," as you have called it. Maybe people decide to agree, or maybe not, or maybe they change their minds or maybe they fight eachother or maybe they agree to disagree, etc.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
slowguy
Mar 19, 07 16:06
Post #508 of 608
(3374 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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"I don't want to risk alienating myself from the rest of the forum because of a couple of fundies. "
I am very far from a "fundie," but apparently linking to "religioustolerance.com" doesn't actually mean you practice any.
"It is very clear that you have made up your minds a long long time ago and that you are unwilling to even entertain the possibility that an atheist can be a moral person"
So did you. Your entire premise is that no one person is right or wrong. There is no right or wrong. The very definition of "moral" is; "of or pertaining to the principles of right and wrong." Where is the disconnect? I absolutely believe an atheist can take actions that are right and good, but that's because I believe there is a right and a good. You only believe the atheist can take actions he thinks are the best ones for him and/or his society.
"To a degree, most people in North America are Atheists"
What a load of bunk. Notice they say "to a degree," like saying "from a certain point of view," because it's a load of crap. An Atheist isn't a person who doesn't believe certain gods exist, but does believe other gods do. An Atheist is a person who doesn't believe there is any god. As opposed to a Theist who does believe in a god of some sort.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
BarryP
Mar 20, 07 5:51
Post #509 of 608
(3360 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [Terra-Man]
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I believe in one God. I have a friend that believes in three.
By comparison, Ed believes in 30 and his buddy Jimmy in 34.
Which is a more significant difference, 1 vs. 3, or 30 vs. 34?
___________________
I think we can both agree that its pretty irrelavent no matter what the number is. It's kind of like arguing about who has more papers to sign for their mortgage. In the end, it's the house you live in and what it costs that matters.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
BarryP
Mar 20, 07 5:58
Post #510 of 608
(3358 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Why don't you explain to me exactly how you see the world. If I see it as "moral anarchy" (your words), and you don't, then what do you see it as?
What criteria does someone need to be considered a "moral" person. How can they make a "moral" decision.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
drkmattr
Mar 20, 07 6:47
Post #511 of 608
(3352 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Slowguy,
‘Or’ cannot be understood as ‘and’. The digital age depends on the distinction. You see the difference between:
-”societal factors or personal opinion”
And.
-”societal factors to include: parents, community, law, books, personal experience, a bunch of other stuff, AND, personal judgement.”
You said, “...it is not a characterization of any PEOPLE. It is a characterization of the moral landscape.”
Please re-read your post #484.
It seems to me that the atheist-anarchist connection is something that you must believe in order to validate your own belief system.
~~~
I enjoyed the subjective-objective part of our conversation. The rest, not-so-much;) Since we’re getting exactly no where, I’m going to call it a day.
Until next time!
drkmattr
(This post was
edited
by drkmattr on Mar 20, 07 7:03)
BarryP
Mar 20, 07 11:27
Post #512 of 608
(3339 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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I have not, as Barry recently said, told anyone that their loved ones were going to get raped because of atheists. I have not, as Barry DID, suggest that people who don't think like I do are just moral deviants waiting to be let loose with all the bad things they've always wanted to do......
______________
Hey thanks for pointing to that post. Funny, I never said that Slowguy "told anyone that their loved ones were going to get raped because of atheists" nor did I suggest "that people who don't think like I do are just moral deviants waiting to be let loose with all the bad things they've always wanted to do."
To which all I can say is "The mere fact that you are willing to completely misrepresent my views says plenty about yourself." - Slowguy, post 482
I've decided at this point to completely admit that atheism leads to moral anarchy. You win!
Now I'd like to know what SG and V think about morality. Exactly what criteria are required to make one a moral person and what criteria are required to prevent moral anarchy?
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
slowguy
Mar 20, 07 14:38
Post #513 of 608
(3326 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr]
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"‘Or’ cannot be understood as ‘and’."
Like I said, I apologize for not putting the conjunction "and" in the sentence. I though everyone understands that people don't pick either societal factors OR their own personal opinion, and that the two are intertwined. I guess I assumed wrongly.
"Please re-read your post #484."
Did it. Still not a characterization of any people, just of the moral framework in which Barry has set himself (or believes exists).
"It seems to me that the atheist-anarchist connection is something that you must believe in order to validate your own belief system."
Why do atheists always resort to condescension? How about simply acknowledging that it's something I DO believe, instead of something I NEED to believe, as if I'm clinging to some tenuous connection to make myself feel better?
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
slowguy
Mar 20, 07 14:40
Post #514 of 608
(3324 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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", I never said that Slowguy "told anyone that their loved ones were going to get raped because of atheists""
Actually, you did suggest that that was my view. You did so several times. Please go back to read your own words.
"nor did I suggest "that people who don't think like I do are just moral deviants waiting to be let loose with all the bad things they've always wanted to do.""
Go back to read your opening few posts in which you asked all us Christians which crimes we would be committing if we found out there was no God.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
drkmattr
Mar 20, 07 15:30
Post #515 of 608
(3318 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Slowguy,
“Why do atheists always resort to condescension?”
They don’t. But if you repeatedly insult them you shouldn’t expect them to sit around pasty-faced, like fair maidens at high tea.
I’m pretty sure you want to edit that second question...
drkmattr
slowguy
Mar 20, 07 15:44
Post #516 of 608
(3310 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr]
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"But if you repeatedly insult them you shouldn’t expect them to sit around pasty-faced, like fair maidens at high tea."
That's rich. I have never insulted atheists, and have, in fact, gone out of my way to assert repeatedly that I was fully aware that atheists can be good people and do good things.
"I’m pretty sure you want to edit that second question.."
Nope.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
drkmattr
Mar 21, 07 5:26
Post #517 of 608
(3300 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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You claim that you have -never- insulted atheists, yet you painted “non-religious people” with the broad brush stroke of moral anarchy:
“What they [all of the non-religious people] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [one based on societal factors or personal opinion] amounts to moral anarchy.”
You don’t perceive that as insulting. I do.
Its nothing to get too upset about though, as we have two very different outlooks on life.
Similarly, I don’t perceive the following as condescension:
"It seems to me that the atheist-anarchist connection is something that you must believe in order to validate your own belief system."
I think that the vast majority of people are truthful (you included of course:)). But I’m not quite naive enough to accept what I’m told as factual without test. Often enough, after considering what they’ve said, think that they’re truthful, but mistaken.
I don’t actively seek out those who have strongly-held beliefs in order to try to disturb their world view. It would be cruel to do so. On the other hand, if one makes what sounds to me like a claim to certainty on a rough-and-tumble internet forum like the lavender room, in a thread whose subject is controversial, I feel less constrained. Here, in this thread, I assume that those participating have a sufficiently strong faith and countenance to bear some scrutiny.
There are many thousands of “belief systems”. Some religious (Islam), some quasi-religious (Buddhism), and some not religious at all (Libertarianism). Each belief system is held together by an variety of different ideas. Each individual tries to put those ideas together, like pieces of a puzzle, in order to create an internally consistent whole. But, unlike in store-bought puzzles where, with a little effort, everything fits together nicely, in belief system puzzles, all the pieces never quite fit. In fact, some of the pieces are completely unnecessary.
I think that the atheist-as-anarchist piece of your puzzle is unnecessary to the internal survival of your belief system.
I don’t think that saying it is condescending. You do.
drkmattr
BarryP
Mar 21, 07 5:58
Post #518 of 608
(3298 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Go back to read your opening few posts in which you asked all us Christians which crimes we would be committing if we found out there was no God.
__________________________
The entire postion I have held on this board is that people can be moral without a belief in God. It is YOU who have coined the phrase "moral anarchy," to which I still don't fully understand what you mean. Is that just some label like flip-flopper, liberal, or secular progressive? What would happen differently in moraly anarchic world? If nothing, then what difference would it make?
The opening statements were meant to be thought provoking, not accusatory. I said that early on. Either you are confused (whether it be your fault or mine), or you are calling me a liar.
What I find especially funny is that you and Vitus had completely opposite answers.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
(This post was
edited
by BarryP on Mar 21, 07 6:05)
BarryP
Mar 21, 07 6:04
Post #519 of 608
(3297 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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What a load of bunk. Notice they say "to a degree," like saying "from a certain point of view," because it's a load of crap. An Atheist isn't a person who doesn't believe certain gods exist, but does believe other gods do. An Atheist is a person who doesn't believe there is any god. As opposed to a Theist who does believe in a god of some sort.
______________________
You missed the gist of the post. The point he was making is that Christians often wonder why atheists don't believe in their God, yet Christians themselves have rejected every other religion's gods. We merely think that the existence of your God is just as silly as the existence of the Hindu and Nordic Gods. So if you wanted to understand how an atheist can think that your God doesn't exist, you simply have to ask yourself why you think the other gods don't exist.
It is "to a degree" because you can still say "if you believe in none, than who's in charge."
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
BarryP
Mar 21, 07 6:17
Post #520 of 608
(3295 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Again, the IMPORTANT question is what do you consider necessary to be a moral person. What defines a moral action? What is necessary to prevent moral anarchy? What does moral anarchy mean?
Since I am obviously wrong, I need to know what right is.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
slowguy
Mar 21, 07 10:08
Post #521 of 608
(3280 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr]
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"“What they [all of the non-religious people] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [one based on societal factors or personal opinion] amounts to moral anarchy.”"
No. "What they [THE ATHEISTS IN THIS THREAD] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [ONE WITHOUT ANY OBJECTIVE STANDARD] amounts to moral anarchy."
I'm sorry if you're insulted by that. Maybe if you had read my repeated statements that this moral anarchy doesn't amount to atheists being bad people, you wouldn't have been insulted.
"I think that the atheist-as-anarchist piece of your puzzle is unnecessary to the internal survival of your belief system"
I agree. It is not necessary. It simply is a part of my belief system. What you said before was quite the opposite of this last statement. You said before that I "need" this belief. That suggests that you were saying it was necessary.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
slowguy
Mar 21, 07 10:14
Post #522 of 608
(3277 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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"The point he was making is that Christians often wonder why atheists don't believe in their God, yet Christians themselves have rejected every other religion's gods."
Except that statement is not accurate. Christians don't wonder why atheists don't believe in OUR God. We wonder why atheists don't believe in ANY god. There is a significant difference. It's not a matter of eliminating this god or that god. It's rejecting the concept of a god. Hence my comment that the post, and the source of the post, are bunk.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Casey
Mar 21, 07 10:21
Post #523 of 608
(3274 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP]
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The point he was making is that Christians often wonder why atheists don't believe in their God, yet Christians themselves have rejected every other religion's gods.
As a Christian I wonder how atheists can only believe in themselves to the exclusion of God. It strikes me as somewhat arrogant to think that some people put themselves on the top rung of our existence.
I don't believe we are in control of our lives at all (do you know the day you will die), and to think we are here without any God is more baffling to me than anything.
Carry on.
__________________________________________________
You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
drkmattr
Mar 21, 07 13:30
Post #524 of 608
(3265 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy]
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Slowguy,
I did read your stuff. All of it, to include the athiests-are-not-bad-people parts. I find much of what you wrote to be inconsistent. For instance, what you wrote just above is inconsistent with your previous post (#484). The phrases I put in brackets are not my creations, they were born of your post. I think you’ll agree that I did not mischaracterize what you wrote.
From post #484:
“Actually, all of the non-religious people have already admitted that their morals are either based on societal factors, or personal opinion.
... What they haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape amounts to moral anarchy. Every man for themselves with no rule of what is right or wrong that isn't as changing as the latest decision or opinion.”
Thus:
“What they [all of the non-religious people] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [one based on societal factors or personal opinion] amounts to moral anarchy.”
Your revision:
"What they [THE ATHEISTS IN THIS THREAD] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [ONE WITHOUT ANY OBJECTIVE STANDARD] amounts to moral anarchy."
I still disagree in as much as one can disagree to what has not been “admitted”. (Hell Slowguy, I doubt that you and I could even agree on what a “fact” is. Because I sure don’t agree that what you said is a “fact”!)
drkmattr
BarryP
Mar 21, 07 13:32
Post #525 of 608
(3264 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [Casey]
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As a Christian I wonder how atheists can only believe in themselves to the exclusion of God. It strikes me as somewhat
arrogant
to think that some people put themselves on the top rung of our existence.
_______________________
That would only make sense if I
rejected
God. Why on Earth would I risk an eternity in hell just to feel that I am on the top rung of existence?
BTW, speaking of arrogance, how would you describe someone who believes that animals don't have souls (placing your soulful self on the top rung) and thinks that he will have an eternal afterlife in heaven whilst 80% - 98% of the rest of the world's population will spend an eternity of pain and misery in hell.
Seriously.....who are you calling arrogant? I think the word you are looking for is "uppity."
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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