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BarryP

Mar 18, 07 8:07

Post #476 of 608 (3552 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"I wonder if you missed the irony in your statement."

Not trying to impose MY moral standards on anyone. That's the part you seem to have completely missed. All I have told you is that there IS a standard. It's up to you to decide if you want to live up to it or not. All I can do is try to show you what I think the standard is.

"You have come to a sad realization......cancle, or allow? (I assume cancel)"

The sad realization I have come to, is that we spent all these posts and finished where we started. We began with a bunch of atheists complaining about the idea that atheism might lead to moral anarchy, and we finished up with that moral anarchy being the basis of your entire position.
_______________________

Just to be clear, Slowguy, unless you don't vote, then you DO impose your moral standards on other people....about as much as me or any of my atheist friends have.

Atheism doesn't lead to moral anarchy. Human nature leads to moral anarchy. Keep in mind, this isn't the system I prefer. This is the system I believe exists. With over 30 major world religions, some containg 1,000s of versions, I'm not sure how atheism is the cause of anarchy. We have rules too.

If you really care and think that, perhaps, the Bible doesn't contain all the information necessary to understand other religions, I highly recommend you visit http://www.religioustolerance.org/
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


BarryP

Mar 18, 07 10:55

Post #477 of 608 (3548 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I understand they didn't advocate anarchy, in so many words. However, if you read Barry's posts, they lead you to my summary of his position. There is no right or wrong. Each person is free to make his or her own moral decision about what they think is the best course of action for them to take. No one can claim they are "right" or "wrong" in any universal sense. The best they can say is that their own opinion conflicts with the other person's, and then they get to decide whether or not it matters enough to them to try to convince or impose their opinion on that other person. Barry has specifically said that morality is NOT dictated by society, although I understand his position to include the possibility that several people of like opinions could come together in one society. Regardless, we began this thread talking about atheism and the possibility that it could lead to moral anarchy. Anarchy is a state in which there is disorder or confusion. I'm not sure how you can possibly say it's horsecrap to suggest that a world in which every man makes his own morality, no man is right or wrong, and everyone is free to try to impose his opinion on any other person might be rightly described as anarchy.
______________________

Your summary is pretty accurate (finally!) IMO. Like I said, this isn't the system I prefer, it's the one I believe exists.

Definition of anarchy - a state of lawlessness and disorder - wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

I can see how you'd use that definition, as long as you realize that in a state of anarchy, the citizens tend to want to create laws and order as it is more desireable. We atheists recognize this fact and, thus, strive to create laws and order. The ones that can't get with the program (the rapists), have to suffer the consequences that the rest of us agree upon (atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc. alike).

However, human nature is hard to resist. Though I may be able to get away with killing another human and have no higher power to answer to, there is a feeling that I can't control that prevents me from being able to do so.

Hope St. Patrick's day was fun. I don't believe in Saints, but I do like the excuse to wear green and drink!
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 10:55

Post #478 of 608 (3548 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"Just to be clear, Slowguy, unless you don't vote, then you DO impose your moral standards on other people....about as much as me or any of my atheist friends have."

That's a laugh. Voting doesn't impose anything. All it does is cast your vote for the person you think best represents your opinion. Imposing would involve taking away everyone else's chance to have their vote counted. I specifically mentioned the option of either convincing others or imposing your opinion for a reason.

"Atheism doesn't lead to moral anarchy"

I'm not claiming atheism is the "cause" of moral anarchy or any other type of anarchy. I'm simply saying that if you believe what you, and apparently many other atheists believe, moral anarchy is the state in which you live.

"If you really care and think that, perhaps, the Bible doesn't contain all the information necessary to understand other religions, I highly recommend you visit"

Thanks for the tip. I really enjoy the way you keep assuming I am either stupid, intolerant, or uneducated.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


BarryP

Mar 18, 07 12:27

Post #479 of 608 (3544 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
That's a laugh. Voting doesn't impose anything.
_________________

OoooKaaay.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 13:37

Post #480 of 608 (3538 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"OoooKaaay. "

OoooKaaay, what? Voting is not imposing. It is making your opinion known. Imposing is forcing someone to do something regardless of their opinion, and without allowing them to have a say. If we all vote for something, and one side wins, they have not "imposed" their will, so long as the vote was fairly conducted. If you think voting is imposing, you need some refresher courses in democracy.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


BarryP

Mar 18, 07 15:42

Post #481 of 608 (3531 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Wasn't the last election pretty much about how America intended to impose its will on homosexuals and the Middle East?


Anyway, its a moot point. The mere fact that you think you HAVE to be either a believer, a hypocrit, or live in moral anarchy in oder to prevent a loved one from getting raped says to me that you are incpable of rational thought when it regards religion.

Since each of those scenarios is completely rediculous, you have thus indirectly proved the existence of a higher authority. Congratulations!

See you on the other side (free of guilt...of course).
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 15:51

Post #482 of 608 (3530 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"The mere fact that you think you HAVE to be either a believer, a hypocrit, or live in moral anarchy in oder to prevent a loved one from getting raped says to me that you are incpable of rational thought when it regards religion. "

The mere fact that you are willing to completely misrepresent my views says plenty about yourself.

"Wasn't the last election pretty much about how America intended to impose its will on homosexuals and the Middle East?"

Well the country was split, with two candidates nobody thought were the best available choices, and everyone got their chance to vote. Opinion was not imposed in the electoral process. That's somewhat separate from the policy decisions made with regard to the war in the Middle East and the issues of homosexuality, which didn't really play that big a part in the election. I think you know that's a little different from a discussion about imposing my opinion about morality, which was what we've been discussing.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


TripleThreat

Mar 18, 07 16:44

Post #483 of 608 (3524 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Slowguy,

You are trying to convince non-religious people that their "morals" are determined by cultural norms, majority opinion, etc because among mankind there is no universal right and wrong. It's not going to happen.

Just punch yourself in the nuts three times and get it over with. It'll save you time, effort, and discomfort. There is no arguement/statement that you can possibly make that will change the oppossing opinion. Not with something of this magnitude.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 17:57

Post #484 of 608 (3520 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [TripleThreat] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"You are trying to convince non-religious people that their "morals" are determined by cultural norms, majority opinion, etc because among mankind there is no universal right and wrong. It's not going to happen."

Actually, all of the non-religious people have already admitted that their morals are either based on societal factors, or personal opinion. That part wasn't difficult, as they pretty much came to the table with that view, and because, if you take out the possibility of a god or other factor greater than man, societal factors and personal opinion is pretty much all that's left.
What they haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape amounts to moral anarchy. Every man for themselves with no rule of what is right or wrong that isn't as changing as the latest decision or opinion. I have not, as Barry recently said, told anyone that their loved ones were going to get raped because of atheists. I have not, as Barry DID, suggest that people who don't think like I do are just moral deviants waiting to be let loose with all the bad things they've always wanted to do. All I suggested is that, when every person is making their own independant moral decisions, and they are not subject to any overriding standard, that amounts to confusion and disorder; the very definition of anarchy.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


sphere

Mar 18, 07 18:11

Post #485 of 608 (3518 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
when every person is making their own independant moral decisions, and they are not subject to any overriding standard, that amounts to confusion and disorder; the very definition of anarchy.

What is missing from your summary is the effects of the ever-present governing of law and order, which is certainly dictated by society. Not many people are making independent moral decisions that would be considered deviant or anarchic behavior without paying a heavy price. There is a collective societal force at work at all times, regardless of the origin of the determined code of conduct. Anarchy exists only where it is tolerated, and civilization no longer tolerates anarchy.

Edit: In my opinion, one of the greatest contributions to human progress is how religions organized and determined what they believed to be a moral code based on God's word. It added formal structure, complete with expectations and accountability, that undoubtedly served humanity well over the centuries (despite a few glaring missteps). I think modern society has adopted that model to some extent, and many (myself included) don't require belief in a god to see the value and necessity of such order.



"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine

(This post was edited by sphere on Mar 18, 07 18:25)


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 18:21

Post #486 of 608 (3514 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [sphere] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"What is missing from your summary is the effects of the ever-present governing of law and order, which is certainly dictated by society"

Which is why I limited my comments to "moral anarchy," and did not suggest that atheism was neccesarily going to lead to societal anarchy.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


sphere

Mar 18, 07 18:37

Post #487 of 608 (3512 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I suppose moral anarchy does exist in individuals, predisposing them to deviant behavior, just as other deviants allow their addictions and urges to override their innate or divinely-imparted knowledge of what is morally sound. The effect is the same - intolerable deviant behavior, which is confronted by societal institutions (including the church). I guess that's why I don't see any real functional difference between the two.



"Reason obeys itself; ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it." - T. Paine


slowguy

Mar 18, 07 19:32

Post #488 of 608 (3507 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [sphere] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"The effect is the same - intolerable deviant behavior, which is confronted by societal institutions (including the church). I guess that's why I don't see any real functional difference between the two. "

I'm not sure there is a functional difference most of the time. It's a conceptual difference. It's a matter of there being a right and wrong, or not. It's a matter of being able to say that a society in the Middle East that treats women poorly is "wrong," as opposed to just being able to say they don't agree with us. Either way, we may decide to go do something about it or not. But in my system of beliefs, at least I feel comfortable that we're doing the right thing, instead of just that we're doing what we want to do. I feel that we're working towards an end goal, rather than just biding time until someone stronger than us decides to make us live by their standard.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


TripleThreat

Mar 18, 07 20:26

Post #489 of 608 (3505 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I simply mean that you are attempting to change one's philosophy or their worldview. That's a difficult task. Changing one's behavior is much easier, but actually getting someone to initiate or accept changes to their philosophy/beliefs/worldview is incredibly difficult. Humans resist change, especially in these areas.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --


BarryP

Mar 19, 07 1:16

Post #490 of 608 (3500 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
The mere fact that you are willing to completely misrepresent my views says plenty about yourself.
______________________

You have got to be kidding me. You spent pages and pages trying to convince me that to recognize that people have varying opinions about what is universally "right," and that there is no universal answer, that it would be illogical to prevent a rape from occuring. A rape?!

You then give yourself a free pass on voting as it is only your "opinion" of who you want to represent you in government, even though that opinion, as insignificant as it may be (only because you are one of millions voting) helps decide what happens to the livelihoods of millions of people.

Now I'm misrepresenting you?

As Tripple Threat has noted, you are trying to convince me to see the world as you see it....not exactly the way you see it, but certainly to pull me away from how I see it.....and you've been really stretching things (ie....the whole rape discussion). My whole intent was for you to understand that individuals who do not believe in God or an objective moral absolute, still have morals. You don't believe this is possible, yet you have talked to several on this thread who have testified to you that it IS the way we see it. Just listen to us and accept it.

Regarding "moral anarchy," the term means nothing out of context of its societal impact. Like sphere said, we have laws written by religious and non-religious alike. Even if we each have our own oppion on what "right" is....whether it be objective and absolute or not, we still come to an agreement on how it shall be governed.

You NEED an absolute moral standard to believe in when we defend women against the Taliban to know that you are doing the "right" thing. I, on the other hand, make similar jugements without the existence of that standard. It's not be cause I'd rather not have the standard. I just don't believe it exists. That's ok with me. I'm content knowing that I've done my homework and can sleep at night (except tonight for some reason) feeling confident that I made a "good" decision and that the world will be a better place for it.

I don't need an absolute moral standard to decide if I should stop a rape. It isn't necessary.

6,000,000,000 don't follow the source of my morality (me). 4,000,000,000 people don't follow the source of yours (the Christian God) and the other 2,000,000,000 have disagreements on exactly what that source is telling you. The world IS a moral anarchy no matter what relion you are. That's why we write laws down as opposed to just letting everyone decide for themselves what is "right."

I pointed you to www.religioustolerance.org not because I think you are intolerant, but because it is a VERY good site. You should check it out if you get the chance. You'll probably learn more about where I'm coming from there than you will by continuing to go in circles with me.

Cheers.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


slowguy

Mar 19, 07 4:44

Post #491 of 608 (3493 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [TripleThreat] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"Humans resist change, especially in these areas."

No argument there. You're right, the LR is prime example. ;-)

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


slowguy

Mar 19, 07 4:54

Post #492 of 608 (3492 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"You spent pages and pages trying to convince me that to recognize that people have varying opinions about what is universally "right," and that there is no universal answer, that it would be illogical to prevent a rape from occuring. A rape?!"

I spent pages asking you for how you would justify that particular imposition of your opinion over another person's. That is quite different from saying you have to think my way in order to prevent rapes.

"You then give yourself a free pass on voting as it is only your "opinion" of who you want to represent you in government, even though that opinion, as insignificant as it may be (only because you are one of millions voting) helps decide what happens to the livelihoods of millions of people"

I didn't give myself a free pass. I distinguished between "imposing" my opinion, and attempting to "convince" someone of my opinion. That's a distinction I've made the whole way along, by the way.

"Now I'm misrepresenting you?"

Yes.

"Just listen to us and accept it."

First you complain that I am trying to "pull you away" from how you see the world, and then you turn around and tell me to just "accept" your position? Wow, that's a nice convenient double standard.

"Regarding "moral anarchy," the term means nothing out of context of its societal impact"

That's not true.

"we still come to an agreement on how it shall be governed."

We do not come to agreement. We come to compromise. And, we only come to compromise within our small enclaves of society. Each town has its own ordnances. Each County has its own. Each State has its own. Our country has its own, and that is different from every other country. There is no consensus. And even if there was, law is not the same as morality. We've discussed that already.

"I don't need an absolute moral standard to decide if I should stop a rape. It isn't necessary. "

Yeah, I got that, and rape is a pretty obvious example, chosen for that specific reason. It's the stickier issues that aren't so obviously clear cut for almost everyone that make a difference.

"I pointed you to www.religioustolerance.org not because I think you are intolerant, but because it is a VERY good site. You should check it out if you get the chance. You'll probably learn more about where I'm coming from there than you will by continuing to go in circles with me."

Aren't you an atheist? I'm not sure how studying Hinduism or Budhism is going to teach me more about a non-religion like atheism.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


BarryP

Mar 19, 07 5:21

Post #493 of 608 (3489 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
First you complain that I am trying to "pull you away" from how you see the world, and then you turn around and tell me to just "accept" your position? Wow, that's a nice convenient double standard.
______________________

Nooooooooo. I don't want you to "accept our belief system" as if I want you to be an atheist. I want you to accept the fact that t"this is the way we think and this is why we think that way." That's it!

You'll notice that not once on this entire thread did I ever challenge you on your belief system. We could certainly go into "how on earth can you believe such an such when the Bible says this and that but then it says that other thing and how can you believe this one book over that one....blah blah blah."

If you want, we could get into that. But I really can't imagine what that would accomplish. I've told you several times how I can justify impsoing my will on another person. That isn't good enough for you. That's fine. I'm not you........and I seem to get along in the world just fine without being you. How about I just say "faith" and we can leave it alone.
_________________________

"I pointed you to http://www.religioustolerance.org not because I think you are intolerant, but because it is a VERY good site. You should check it out if you get the chance. You'll probably learn more about where I'm coming from there than you will by continuing to go in circles with me."

Aren't you an atheist? I'm not sure how studying Hinduism or Budhism is going to teach me more about a non-religion like atheism
______________________

Amazingly, a site about "tolerance of religions" also included "tolerance of atheists." Did you even read the stuff I copied and pasted before? The stuff that specifcally said from: www.religioustolerance.org?

Like I said. Go there and read it. It won't make you want to be an athiest,and it won't make you understand how we draw our conclusions, but it least it will give you an accurate discription of what we're all about.....including the fact that we have morals that are neither convieniently flexible nor flimsy. You'll also see misconceptions that people have about YOUR religion.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

(This post was edited by BarryP on Mar 19, 07 5:22)


drkmattr

Mar 19, 07 6:36

Post #494 of 608 (3482 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [slowguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
Slowman,

The silky blond Guiness mustache has dried to a crust on my top lip and now you’re back at it!

Its not “societal factors or personal opinion”. Its societal factors to include: parents, community, law, books, personal experience, a bunch of other stuff, AND, personal judgement.

You say: “What they [all of the non-religious people] haven't admitted is the fact that such a moral landscape [one based on societal factors or personal opinion] amounts to moral anarchy.”

They haven’t admitted it because its false. Its a bogus characterization of non-religious people made by you and repeated. When you’re called on in you back off a bit, wait a couple posts, then throw it out there again.

drkmattr


BarryP

Mar 19, 07 8:36

Post #495 of 608 (3466 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
It's slowguy......Slowman is the guy who owns the website. Talk about invoking God!! ; ^ )
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


drkmattr

Mar 19, 07 8:40

Post #496 of 608 (3462 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
...Whoops!!

Thanks,
drkmattr


BarryP

Mar 19, 07 9:02

Post #497 of 608 (3459 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [drkmattr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I'm pretty sure I get where he's coming from and, in his mind, it would seem like "moral anarchy."

To the devout religious person, there is an absolute tangible answer out there. As they believe they get a better and better understanding of what that answer is, they are in a better and better position with which to judge their own actions and the actions of others as being more or less in line with the ultimate solution.

In otherwords, there is a pattern that everything is meant to follow....like a "paint by numbers" painting.

So, once you remove that absolute standard, the religious person is left to examine the world absent of the one thing that made it all make sense.

As I've tried to explain, it's not that the aethiest *prefers* this Godless scenario (as is often the misunderstanding that many Christians have). It's that it is the scenario that we believe exists. Although instead of "moral anarchy" I would describe it as "moral chaos." Since there is no God to turn to to bring order to a lawless and chaotic environment, the atheist deals with the practical aspects of living in the real world.....ie, what would life be like if we let rape to happen without consequences. Or, for that matter, how do you feel when you see a terrified woman crying in pain while a rapist attacks her? What compels you to stop it or let it go? Without God you have to rely on yourself for the answer.

As is evident in this thread, it is very difficult for a religious person to understand how one can make a moral jugement without a supernatural source for that morality. I was hoping that this thread would be enlightening.....ie, "Wow. They really do make seemingly "moral" decisions without God."

Instead we seem to be getting, "You are completely illogical. That makes no sense." Kind of like the way I feel about a faith based on a book written by some guys 1500 years ago who heard voices in their heads. I didn't go there before because I thought it should be obvious that Christians don't believe what Atheists do and Atheists don't believe what Christians do. So what can possibly be accomplished other than calling each other crazy?

Like I said, I'll I want to hear is, "I don't get it, I don't agree with it, but now I do understand where you are coming from."
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


vitus979

Mar 19, 07 9:11

Post #498 of 608 (3457 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
It's that it is the scenario that we believe exists. Although instead of "moral anarchy" I would describe it as "moral chaos."

I don't understand what you think the difference is.

it is very difficult for a religious person to understand how one can make a moral jugement without a supernatural source for that morality.

Not as difficult as it is for atheists to refrain from unwarranted condescencion, I think.

I was hoping that this thread would be enlightening.....ie, "Wow. They really do make seemingly "moral" decisions without God."

We've acknowledged over and over that you can make seemingly moral decisions as an atheist. Our concern is those quotes you put around "moral." Because in your view, though not that of the other participants in this thread, it really is just that decisions "seem" moral.

Instead we seem to be getting, "You are completely illogical. That makes no sense." Kind of like the way I feel about a faith based on a book written by some guys 1500 years ago who heard voices in their heads.

Well, fine. You realize that doesn't make your position anymore philosophically legitimate, right?







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


BarryP

Mar 19, 07 11:00

Post #499 of 608 (3449 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
I was trying my hardest to be fair and diplomatic. It seems that pointing out the mere possibility that your perspective makes it difficult to see mine is offensive. I am truly sorry.


This is going completely nowhere. I had to delete one of the most offensive posts I think I have ever written because you two are driving me completely crazy. I don't want to risk alienating myself from the rest of the forum because of a couple of fundies.

It is very clear that you have made up your minds a long long time ago and that you are unwilling to even entertain the possibility that an atheist can be a moral person. You have accepted it as a fundamental axiom of humanity. If not, then YOU need to tell me how one can be moral. I am at a complete loss. I have never scored less than an A on any logic test I took in my life (including in several college classes), so perhaps there is a level of logic that I am just not capable of.

The link and a paste-in one last time. Do not respond to me until you can swear to God that you actually spent some time reading the site.

www.religioustolerance.org

or specifically http://www.religioustolerance.org/morality.htm

or http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm
Overview:
Atheism is not a religion in the sense that Christianity, Islam, and, Judaism are. Atheism is not generally perceived as offering a complete guideline for living as do most religions.
Atheism is confined to one factor: the existence or non-existence of a deity.
Atheism can involve the positive assertion that there is no deity. This is sometimes referred to as "strong Atheism." It is the most common dictionary definition for the term "Atheist." Atheism can be the absence of a belief that there is a deity. This is the belief promoted by the American Atheists group and many individual Atheists.

Each atheist has a personal moral code. However, it is generally derived from secular considerations, and not from any "revealed" religious text.

To a degree, most people in North America are Atheists. Christians will generally deny the existence of the Mayan, Hindu, Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Sumerian, Sikh, and many hundreds of other Gods and Goddesses, even as they assert their belief in the Christian Trinity. Thus, the difference between a typical Christian and a typical Atheist is numerically small: The strong Atheist believes that none of the many thousands of Gods and Goddesses exist; the Christian believes that one God exists in a certain structure -- a Trinity -- whereas all of the other thousands of deities are nonexistent, artificial creations by humans. Although the numerical difference is much less that 0.1%, the philosophical difference is immense.
There exists massive discrimination against Atheists in the U.S.
Part of this may be based on the historical linkage between Communism and Atheism. Most Communists are Atheists. But many people do not realize that most Atheists in North America are not Communists. Another reason for this discrimination is the common belief that a person cannot be motivated to lead a moral life unless they hope for the reward of heaven, and fear the punishment of Hell. In the past, this belief had been codified into law. Conscientious objectors opposed to participating in warfare were thrown in jail if their opposition to killing was not based on belief in God. Still another cause of discrimination is a widespread linkage between theism -- the belief in the existence of God -- American citizenship, and Christianity.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

(This post was edited by BarryP on Mar 19, 07 12:07)


Terra-Man

Mar 19, 07 12:36

Post #500 of 608 (3432 views)
Re: Question on Morality for you Christians [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply
"To a degree, most people in North America are Atheists. Christians will generally deny the existence of the Mayan, Hindu, Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Sumerian, Sikh, and many hundreds of other Gods and Goddesses, even as they assert their belief in the Christian Trinity. Thus, the difference between a typical Christian and a typical Atheist is numerically small: The strong Atheist believes that none of the many thousands of Gods and Goddesses exist; the Christian believes that one God exists in a certain structure -- a Trinity -- whereas all of the other thousands of deities are nonexistent, artificial creations by humans. Although the numerical difference is much less that 0.1%, the philosophical difference is immense."

To a degree, the number "1" is infinitely larger than the number "0."

Sponsored by: Center for Breast Health at MS. Baptist Med. Ctr.
Member of Ironman Foundation/Newton Running Ambassador Team
Partial to: Zipp, Quarq, & SRAM, Newton Running (haha not holding my breath for a swim sponsor)

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