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Hooray Texas!
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vitus979
Nov 10, 05 10:58
Post #76 of 728
(2764 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [tritnow]
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First and foremost, there are a lot of different kinds of marriages that have been accepted by societies over
history
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I don't think that's in contention.
(and not all societies have had a "formal" union that you would consider marriage)
I think you misunderstand what I consider marriage. Not all societies have had formal wedding rites- they have all had recognized marriage. (And conversely, not all formal unions are marriages, or were considered marriage- which is why I didn't bother responding to adams post about same sex marriage in history.)
We've outlawed many types of marriages that have existed over many centuries, and are still accepted by some societies.
Yet again, that's uncontested.
So the marriage we know today only started in the 1500's
Uh, I don't think so. How are you defining marriage as we know it?
So this whole notion of marriage as seen by the ultra-conservatives of Texas and elsewhere is merely a ruse to attempt to get society to conform to their way of thinking, to scare ignorant persons and make them less tolerant towards their fellow human beings, and to distort the truth.
Non sequitor, not too mention wrong.
In fact "marriage" can be thought of as evolving union between two persons. Our current view today will change over the years.
Of course it can. The question is, what is it evolving into, what's the basis of that evolution, and is it good for society or not?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
vitus979
Nov 10, 05 11:01
Post #77 of 728
(2760 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Mr. Tibbs]
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So you don't have an answer?
No, Tibbs, I have an answer. I just see no reason to waste it on you, because you have a decent history of ignoring it when it doesn't suit you.
This just proves my point. You don't want gays to marry because you don't approve of the lifestyle and instead of working hard and doing the things it takes too change the state of marriage is the US you think cutting a super small group out makes a diffrence.
Exactly. I'm a homophobic hypocrite who beats my wife. And my ex-wife on every other weekend. You got me.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
YaHey
Nov 10, 05 11:06
Post #78 of 728
(2756 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979]
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So the marriage we know today only started in the 1500's
Uh, I don't think so. How are you defining marriage as we know it?
I am defining it as between one man and one woman. This is not the case over all societies throughout all of history.
So this whole notion of marriage as seen by the ultra-conservatives of Texas and elsewhere is merely a ruse to attempt to get society to conform to their way of thinking, to scare ignorant persons and make them less tolerant towards their fellow human beings, and to distort the truth.
Non sequitor, not too mention wrong.
The ultra conservatives want you to be scared that gay marriage is bad for society as a whole and does not fit with your family values. This is coming from a State that has some of the highest teen pregnancy, unwed parents birth, and divorce rates in the country. A bit hypocritical and ignorant, don't you think?
In fact "marriage" can be thought of as evolving union between two persons. Our current view today will change over the years.
Of course it can. The question is, what is it evolving into, what's the basis of that evolution, and is it good for society or not?
So, by banning gay marriage we are making society better? Safer? Just prejudicies by persons who have not been exposed to the real world.
vitus979
Nov 10, 05 11:14
Post #79 of 728
(2752 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [tritnow]
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I am defining it as between one man and one woman. This is not the case over all societies throughout all of history.
You're big on stated uncontested facts, I see.
The ultra conservatives want you to be scared that gay marriage is bad for society as a whole and does not fit with your family values. This is coming from a State that has some of the highest teen pregnancy, unwed parents birth, and divorce rates in the country. A bit hypocritical and ignorant, don't you think?
No.
So, by banning gay marriage we are making society better? Safer?
By banning gay marriage, we're preventing more damage to the institution of marriage, and thus preserving society from the damage that would result from that. So, not so much improving, as preventing harm.
Just prejudicies by persons who have not been exposed to the real world.
Ah. Maybe you can send me the address of the real world. Here I thought I've been exposed to it for quite some time now, but evidently, since I disagree with you, I must not have been.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 11:27
Post #80 of 728
(2744 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979]
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"I just see no reason to waste it on you, because you have a decent history of ignoring it when it doesn't suit you. "
That's a lie. If you notice I stretch out these arguments forever because I take every argument given to me. You just refuse to answer the question of how natural law goes against gay marriage. You don't have an answer.
"Exactly. I'm a homophobic hypocrite who beats my wife. And my ex-wife on every other weekend. You got me. "
That is an overreaction made too block my statement. I stated a fact. You do not approve of homosexual relationships. Again you and those on your side refuse make a national issue out of divorce, intoxication, abuse and the many other issues that destroy the marriage. Yes your church talks about it but where is the money, time and energy? You can blame the media but the churches are spending a large amount of their resources to block something that does not affect your marriage.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
YaHey
Nov 10, 05 11:29
Post #81 of 728
(2742 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979]
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By banning gay marriage, we're preventing more damage to the institution of marriage, and thus preserving society from the damage that would result from that. So, not so much improving, as preventing harm.
We have just spent several posting discussing the fact that the institution of marriage is a dynamic ever evloving definition. What institution are you referring to and what damage/harm are you talking about? I take that it is your definition of what you have been brainwashed to believe is the "appropriate" definition of marriage. Sad, really.
Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 11:45
Post #82 of 728
(2731 views)
Latest news!
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I-30 heading toward Arkansa is at a stand still as divorce lawyers, rapist, child abusers, robbers, liars, thieves and other assorted scum all start there long trek north.
"I was only able to stay because of the chance of gay marriage happening in Texas." Said one man who claimed to be a rapist. "You see gays marrying causes my behavoir and all the ills of society."
"My buisness was destroyed." Said one divorce layer who had all his suits in a hand cart. "You see I used to send gay couples out all over Texas. They would go up to Christian couples and say 'We are married.' this would cause their strong bond under Christ to crumble and the couple would split up. We all know that the actions of a tiny few can easily destroy a Christians belief. I mean the Christians used to get divorced all the time and give up on their vows with out even blinking but now that a piece of paper in Austin says that marriage is a man and a woman Christians have now started acting like they always claimed too. I have lost everything."
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
adamb
Nov 10, 05 12:05
Post #83 of 728
(2715 views)
Re: Latest news! [Mr. Tibbs]
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vitus:
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Maybe you didn't read the part where I said "among regular church going Evangelical types."
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Which is exactly what the study discusses.
Christians get divorced more often than atheists and agnostics. Fact.
Instead of addressing that, they attack a minority group that does not have the power to defend its own rights.
Good work, Jesus folk!
vitus979
Nov 10, 05 12:16
Post #84 of 728
(2704 views)
Re: Latest news! [adamb]
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Maybe you didn't read the part where I said "among regular church going Evangelical types."
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Which is exactly what the study discusses.
No. Let me try again. "Among regular church going Evangelical types" means those Evangelical types who
actually go to church regularly
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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 12:19
Post #85 of 728
(2698 views)
Re: Latest news! [adamb]
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adam what is about natural law that says gay marriage is bad? I need your help little bro.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
vitus979
Nov 10, 05 12:22
Post #86 of 728
(2696 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [tritnow]
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We have just spent several posting discussing the fact that the institution of marriage is a dynamic ever evloving definition.
Yes, somewhat unnecessarily.
What institution are you referring to and what damage/harm are you talking about?
Let me ask you this, tritnow: In your extensive research into the various forms of marriage throughout human history, did you happen to notice a common thread among them? Have you read that Lewis essay, and/or considered what relevance it might have to the discussion?
I take that it is your definition of what you have been brainwashed to believe is the "appropriate" definition of marriage. Sad, really.
Well, don't weep too hard for me. I take it that while my beliefs about marriage are simply the result of having been brainwashed, your beliefs about marriage are the calm, rational, considered result of your own brave independent thinking. Notwithstanding the fact that up until yesterday, you thought that marriage didn't exist at all until a couple of hundred years ago, when organized religion got its claws into us.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Casey
Nov 10, 05 12:30
Post #87 of 728
(2690 views)
Re: Latest news! [adamb]
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adamb
Nov 10, 05 12:31
Post #88 of 728
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Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979]
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vitus:
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No. Let me try again. "Among regular church going Evangelical types" means those Evangelical types who actually go to church regularly.
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Do you have some information about this study only including people who don't go to church regularly?
Christians get divorced more often than atheists/agnostics. Fact.
Christians are busy destroying their own moral ideals, and instead of looking inward that attack defenseless groups.
J-snoop:
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adam what is about natural law that says gay marriage is bad? I need your help little bro.
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Nothing.
Gay marriage is probably about as meaningless as could possible be imagined in terms of "natural law". It doesn't even have an impact on mating/reproduction like straight marriage does.
There are advantages for a society/tribe to have non-mating members, which is why you have homosexual animals everywhere and their little groups don't punish them for being so.
adamb
Nov 10, 05 12:36
Post #89 of 728
(2683 views)
Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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casey:
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So, should we drop our faith because atheists and agnostics get divorced less?
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What?
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There are a lot of people in church that are not real Christians, they go for many reasons, not the least of which is for social value.
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Who gets to determine who is a "real Christian"? You?
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Non-Christians like to paint all Christians with the same brush but usually ignore the good that we do.
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What? I just said that Christians get divorced more often than atheists and agnostics. And that's true.
I think it is because Christians repress sexuality and young people will get married very quickly because that's the only way their Christian surroundings will accept them. Sex is a powerful desire.
Atheists/agnostics, on the other hand, don't mind co-habitation, so they don't rush into marriage; more time to evaluate the suitability of a 'till-death partnership.
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If Christians, as a group, stand for marriages between a man and a woman, what harm is it to you? What harm is it to gays? We are not taking anything away from them because they are not married now.
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Christians are keeping fundamental civil rights from gays.
Slaves born into slavery never had freedom, so you're not really taking anything away by keeping them slaves! GENIUS!
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Why create an institution that does no good and just further erodes a struggling institution?
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Marriage encourages social stability. That is definitely a good thing. The erosion is all in your mind.
Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 12:43
Post #90 of 728
(2680 views)
Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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"So, should we drop our faith because atheists and agnostics get divorced less? "
No, how about you guys shut your pie holes until you can start living like your preaching.
"Non-Christians like to paint all Christians with the same brush but usually ignore the good that we do."
That's a lie. A lot a atheist and agnostics give to christian causes and have Christian friends the problem is all Chrisitan want to paint others with a big brush but when those groups point out that you guys are no better y'all freak and make laws.
"No one claims we are perfect yet we always get accused of being hypocritical. If Christians, as a group, stand for marriages between a man and a woman, what harm is it to you? What harm is it to gays? We are not taking anything away from them because they are not married now. "
You are taking preventing them from having the same right and prevelages you enjoy.
"A man and a man cannot offer a child what a man and a woman can, and if you don't understand that, you are not married."
I am sure they can offer more than a divorce hetro couple who's divorce is not pretty.
"Why create an institution that does nogood and just further erodes a struggling institution?"
Again will you please tell me how gay marriage will weaken hetro marriage. Please for the love of your god give a solid reason.
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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
archistu
Nov 10, 05 12:46
Post #91 of 728
(2678 views)
Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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In Reply To:
A man and a man cannot offer a child what a man and a woman can....
You're absolutely right. Big f***ing deal. I'd take two men who love each other and are committed to raising a child together any day of the week over absentee parents, abusive parents, loveless parents and a host of other problems that already exist. The fact is that every couple nurtures their children in their own unique way, and therefore the fact the two men will bring a different set of experiences and perspectives to the raising of a child is utterly irrelevant. And to even suggest that a gay couple who WANTS a child will be inherently inferior care-givers and nurturers then the millions of parents who currently neglect their children in a multitude of ways is absolutely idiotic. The nice thing about gay couples is they can't have unwanted children the way straight couples can. They have to go out of their way to have children, so the likelihood that they will raise the children well is pretty damn high. Unless of course you think the idea of two men loving each other is so fundamentally repulsive that to expose a child to such an abomination will ruin them for life. To be honest though, I don't get that sense from what you write so I'm left wondering what your real problem is with the whole thing. You keep suggesting that gay marriage will cause society to crumble, yet can't give even one remotely concrete example as to why or how. Are you sure it isn't just that you're personally uncomfortable with the idea, and as a result are trying to make it go away?
Before you
Casey
Nov 10, 05 12:48
Post #92 of 728
(2677 views)
Re: Latest news! [Mr. Tibbs]
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vitus979
Nov 10, 05 12:50
Post #93 of 728
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Re: Hooray Texas! [adamb]
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Do you have some information about this study only including people who don't go to church regularly?
I'm pretty sure I already linked to it. Seems that among regular church attendees, the divorce rate is about a third lower than among people who sleep in most Sundays.
But like I said, it's besides the point, really.
Christians are busy destroying their own moral ideals, and instead of looking inward that attack defenseless groups.
In the first place, I'd hardly call the homosexual lobby defenseless. It seems to have quite a few ardent defenders in here, anyway.
In the second place, yeah, Christians are not perfect. That means they can't advocate for their beliefs? Somehow I don't think that argument was brought up all that often during the civil rights battles. I can see it now, "You want us to stop hating blacks, and all the while you hate the very neighbor who lives next door. Hypocrite!"
Gay marriage is probably about as meaningless as could possible be imagined in terms of "natural law". It doesn't even have an impact on mating/reproduction like straight marriage does.
Oh, my good God. Where do you get your info on these philosophical matters? A cracker jack box? You could hardly be more wrong.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 12:51
Post #94 of 728
(2674 views)
Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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Lame ass cop out. When you or Vitus are asked a straight forward question you guys drop out. When I said shut your pie hole I was talking about all these great laws to protect morals that y'all choose not to obey. So again what about gay marriage threatens your marriage?
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
Casey
Nov 10, 05 12:52
Post #95 of 728
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Re: Latest news! [archistu]
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Mr. Tibbs
Nov 10, 05 12:53
Post #96 of 728
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Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979]
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"Oh, my good God. Where do you get your info on these philosophical matters? A cracker jack box? You could hardly be more wrong."
Yet you refuse to give your information.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
vitus979
Nov 10, 05 12:59
Post #97 of 728
(2666 views)
Re: Latest news! [Mr. Tibbs]
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When you or Vitus are asked a straight forward question you guys drop out.
Because they're stupid questions, Tibbs. I suspect you know it, which makes you about as interesting as any other pest.
"Waa! How would gays getting married affect your marriage?!" Nobody claims that it would have an immediate impact on one's own marriage. Stop asking stupid questions in a stupid manner, and maybe you'll get some more serious responses from me. Like mclamb does, like jhc does, like tritnow usually does, like anyone else who wants to use at least a couple of their brain cells does. Otherwise, rawk on without me.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Casey
Nov 10, 05 12:59
Post #98 of 728
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Re: Latest news! [Mr. Tibbs]
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vitus979
Nov 10, 05 13:03
Post #99 of 728
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Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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The war in Iraq has not impacted my life in any way, but I am opposed to it because I feel it is misdirected,
Oh, you hypocritical busybody, trying to tell the rest of us that we shouldn't do something like that, when all along, you probably beat your wife. And if you don't, plenty of other Christians do. Hypocrite!
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
adamb
Nov 10, 05 13:05
Post #100 of 728
(2705 views)
Re: Latest news! [Casey]
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vitus:
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I'm pretty sure I already linked to it. Seems that among regular church attendees, the divorce rate is about a third lower than among people who sleep in most Sundays.
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You linked to "covenant marriages", which is just a different type of marriage, it has nothing to do with church attendance.
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In the first place, I'd hardly call the homosexual lobby defenseless. It seems to have quite a few ardent defenders in here, anyway.
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You realize that's silly, don't you?
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In the second place, yeah, Christians are not perfect. That means they can't advocate for their beliefs?
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Obviously they can advocate for their beliefs. But they also shouldn't cry like children when their beliefs are challenged and when others question why they choose so selectively which beliefs are advocated.
It's not "don't talk until you're perfect", it's "use your brain a little bit and don't use your Bible as an excuse to hide from your own problems and attack others.
Also, those of us who don't follow Christianity have a hard time understanding why we are forced to follow Christian rules when Christians don't even bother following them.
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Oh, my good God. Where do you get your info on these philosophical matters? A cracker jack box? You could hardly be more wrong.
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Then why don't you actually try to add something to the discussion?
casey:
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I will also repeat that you are opening a box of trouble if you allow gays to marry because there is absolutely no way you can change the definition of marriage to a specific "between one man and one woman" to a general "between consenting adults" without opening up a floodgate of legal challenges.
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Can you explain why this would happen?
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