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Hooray Texas!

 

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adamb

Nov 9, 05 22:06

Post #51 of 728 (2969 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

First of all, it's nice to see that you think moral responsibility ceases to exist once it leaves someone else's doorstep and hits your own.

----
No society that we know of has recognized same sex marriage.
----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage#History_of_same-sex_unions

You are very very wrong.


archistu

Nov 10, 05 0:46

Post #52 of 728 (2963 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
So, seriously, you have no problem letting your kids be taught in school that it's good to be married to another man? Nope. Not at all. Nor do I have a problem with my kids being taught that it's OK to marry a fat person, a jew, a lazy-ass SOB or even an evangelical Christian. The only thing I have a problem with is someone trying to teach my kids that it's OK to define other people and their relationships as second class because they don't conform to a specific and limited sense of what's 'right'.

I think the whole gay marriage joke is something a very small minority is trying to shove down everyone's throat and would bet the majority of gays have absolutely no interest in it. Maybe, maybe not. But if you're right, can you explain to me how allowing this 'very small minority' of gays and lesbians who actually want to marry represent such a huge threat to the american public, the meaning and sanctity of your marriage and whatever else you claim is threatened? And when you're done, can you please explain precisely what this threat is, 'cause I seriously don't understand how two people who love each other and would enjoy the privilege of being able to legally join their lives and assets represents a threat of any kind to you or anyone else simply because they happen to share a gender.
They go around trying to force everyone to accept their lifestyle by legislation, thinking that somehow we will magically wake up one day and think, you know what, there is nothing wrong with 2 men getting married, it's perfectly normal, where have we gone wrong all these years? It will never cease to amaze me how enlightened our generation has become in the last 10 years. And the really funny thing is, it's only been about 40 years or so since black people in this country needed the help of legislation to get the rest of America to accept them. Maybe they were somehow thinking the rest of us would magically wake up one day and think, you know what - there's nothing wrong with this person just because he's black. Or maybe they realized that if they didn't fight and scream and demand to be treated equally, they never would be.

I have a gay brother in law and he echoes exactly what I'm saying, he has absolutely no interest in gay marriage and he doesn't know a single person who wants it. Your brother-in-law doesn't want to get married, and he claims to not have any friends who do either? Wow - you've really done some exhaustive work trying to understand the gay community, haven't you. Could you ask your brother-in-law what the rest of the gay people in the country think about Prada's fall line, 'cause I really want to know.

I know shows like Will and Grace and others continue to portray homosexual men as funnier, hipper and cooler than their stuffy heterosexual counterparts but the image is not always what I see in the real world. Wait - you mean ta TV show isn't an accurate mirror of the real world????? Shocking. I think gay marriage is a bad idea and is going to lead to a lot of problems down the road. I have no problem with gay unions or whatever else they want, but not marriage. OK, I'll bite - what problems? If gay unions are OK with you, what possible problems could stem from allowing the exact same thing to be called a marriage, except for the fact that it offends your sense of entitlement to keep that word for yourself? A rose by any other name, ya know....

Finally the argument about marrying 3 women is valid and has to be considered valid if we open up the definition to any consenting adults. Why open this pandora's box to please such a small minority? It's a fair question, though I'm not convinced it's necessarily bad to let consenting adults enter into and sanctify whatever relationships they want. But there are obvious legal problems with extending privileged relationship status to relationships that consist of more then two people, not least of which would be things like defining who has authority to make parental and medical decisions, who is entitled to what property in the event of death, etc... But it seems a little disingenous to say that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to marry because if we let that happen we might have other problems down the road. That line of thought could easily be used to continue to unjust oppression of any minority.


Mr. Tibbs

Nov 10, 05 2:57

Post #53 of 728 (2959 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What are the dangers of a very small minority of the gay population getting married. What are the ills it will cause that will weaken your marriage and that of your children. Can you give me a time line of when sword fighters start marrying and how long it will be before society falls?
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


Mr. Tibbs

Nov 10, 05 2:59

Post #54 of 728 (2958 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [marko16] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Uh, hi there. What the fuck are you talking about? Where did I say anything about wanting the minority to rule? If you bother to read what I wrote I said I chose not to vote on this because I knew the majority would win and there was nothing I could do about it. Have a nice day.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


elund

Nov 10, 05 3:54

Post #55 of 728 (2953 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I like the old testament version of marriage. Then you could have like 60 wives. That would be cool.


Casey

Nov 10, 05 6:18

Post #56 of 728 (2945 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [archistu] (Deleted by Casey) [In reply to]

 


armytriguy

Nov 10, 05 7:03

Post #57 of 728 (2932 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

WOW. Well written. How can you be so right about this and so wrong about the war in Iraq;)?


Mike Lamb

Nov 10, 05 7:07

Post #58 of 728 (2930 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm curious as to whether there was a great deal of opposition from folks when no-fault divorce was coming en vogue? No fault divorce hasn't been around that long.

I understand your logic in terms of picking battles, but I don't think it would play out in practice. I honestly don't think that most people advocating for a "traditional" marriage would be out in force for changing divorce laws. The divorce rates themselves would be indicative of this. (Unless you have some evidence that divorce rates amongst the traditional marriage lobby(for lack of better terms) divorce at lower rates than the rest of us heathens).



f/k/a mclamb6


marko16

Nov 10, 05 7:45

Post #59 of 728 (2918 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's logic, you stated "My view is a minority view." but want it to be the other way anyway. That's wanting minority rule, even if only implied.


Mike Lamb

Nov 10, 05 7:52

Post #60 of 728 (2916 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Okay, you asked for it:) It is like opening up a strip bar on the corner of your street. It doesn't harm anyone, if you don't want to go in, you don't have to. What right do I have to impute my values on those nice young woman who want to make a living. Or, the degradation of our entertainment from clean humor to one of sex, violence and profanity but you don't have to watch, just shut off the T.V or don't go to movies. The same can be said for diluting the marriage vows which others are doing everyday (yes even those evil bible thumping, judgemental, fundamentalist evangelical Christians). It is slowly weakening to the point that as Vitus said, if you are not "happy" you can claim irreconcilable (sp?) differences and move on.

As to how it affects my marriage, it is just the beginning. Next step will be adoption of children, custody battles for children from other marriages, rewriting the will/estate laws, rewriting the divorce laws, changing all the rules for beneficiaries, re-writing the entire tax code (more business for me but..), more divorces as gays will soon be joining the lines, more anger, more violence amongst divorcing couples, more claims of groups wanting to get married, new rules for property distribution etc.


Hmmm....some interesting points. I don't see the comparison to the strip club. There are very direct and tangible effects that coincide with the presence of a strip club in your neighborhood. Decreased property values, potential "shady" element in terms of clientele milling around the area, etc. I don't see that happening with same sex marriages.

Moreover, with the dilution of the wedding vows, how does that have any effect on the sanctity of your marriage or the seriousness with which you take you vows?

In your second paragraph, in the context of a monogamous, same sex marriage I really don't see there being any major changes in terms of editing the laws. The laws I have read are gender neutral to begin with(i.e. use of the word "spouse"). Not sure about tax codes though. Additionally, given that a high estimate of the rate of homosexuality would be 8-10%, there wouldn't be that much affect on the number of divorces. Not to mention that courts have streamlined that whole process to begin with to keep divorces from clogging the courts. I don't see it as particularly fair to deny gays the right to marry based on the concerns you mentioned when, at worst, it would only have a marginal effect on those issues.

And to address a couple things in your last paragraph: you aren't "denied" the right to play in the NBA, you don't have the requisite ability. As for marriage at age 15, you'd have to admit there is a difference between someone under the age of consent and two consenting adults. Lastly, what right is being taken away? How about simply a recognition of equality with heterosexuals? They are being singled out, en masse, for their sexual preference and being placed in a lower, or, if you prefer, different class. I don't think that is a small consideration.



f/k/a mclamb6


marko16

Nov 10, 05 8:35

Post #61 of 728 (2908 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We can add to that, after all if it wasn't for all the upity christians, I could have sex with a child. Heck there is nothing wrong with priests either. If their parents were more open minded they would actually enjoy it instead of it wrecking their whole lives. How far off am I, a large contributor to the Gay lobby is a group called Manboy love, or Manba, or whatever they call themselves.

Why is it wrong, well nature says so. Homosexuality is a behavior, the behavior does nothing for our species, we all go homo, we're gone in a hundred years. There is nothing even remotely connected to this behavior and evolution. So it's only for pleasure. We usually do go against activities that are pleasureable and do nothing for society. The reason being is that if it doesn't build up, it tears down. Eat too much, drink to much, smoke too much, name the behavior that goes against what we are currently designed for and find a possitive outcome. We are not made to screw men, so we draw the line on those activities as they tend to be harmfull. Trace all sexuall related to diseases to their origin and wow, it's because somone screwed something that wasn't intended. Nature also punishes that which goes against what you are intended for. People been falling off cliffs for ages and we still don't bounce.

I really could care less, but don't come to my door because you wanted to stick your dick in another man and now want my tax dollars to fix your problem. They scream we want Gov't out of our lives until they want money, or to be delclared a victim. Stick to entrance holes folks.


archistu

Nov 10, 05 8:53

Post #62 of 728 (2902 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Casey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Okay, you asked for it:) It is like opening up a strip bar on the corner of your street. It doesn't harm anyone, if you don't want to go in, you don't have to. What right do I have to impute my values on those nice young woman who want to make a living. I give you props for understanding that you have no right to impute your values on these nice young women who want to make a living. But your analogy fails miserably in all cases except the city of Houston. Why Houston? Because Houston has no zoning laws. And zoning laws exist for a wide variety of reasons, among which are protecting property values for both commercial and residential owners, managing traffic flow to avoid overcrowding small streets and assisting in developing fire and police response strategies. So zoning laws have real purpose and meaning, much of which is designed to protect you from being intentionally or unintentionally harmed by the actions of someone else. Marriage laws do nothing of the sort. There is nothing about the marriage of any other couple of any stripe anywhere else in the world that threatens you, your property or your relationship with your spouse. Some marriages may threaten your view of the way the world works, but the existence of the KKK and the military industrial complex threaten my world view. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be illegal. The same can be said for diluting the marriage vows which others are doing everyday (yes even those evil bible thumping, judgemental, fundamentalist evangelical Christians). How is it that the actions of anyone else (gay, straight, bible-thumping or whatever) dilute the value of the promise YOU made to YOUR spouse? If you meant it, you meant it. Period. End of story. It is fundamentally impossible for me, or anyone else, to dilute to value and meaning of a promise you made. You can't argue that because other people don't take similar promises as seriously as you take yours that somehow your promise is weakened. That line of thinking would lead me to conclude that because other people don't invest enough time in their kids that somehow the time I invest in mine is worth less.
Next step will be adoption of children (hate to break to the news to you, but you've been losing this battle for a while now).... rewriting the will/estate laws (you mean to allow to consenting adults who have committed their lives to each other to transfer assets upon death???? the horror. clearly you have an overwhelming interest in controlling what happens to the assets of some random gay man when he dies. but you'll have to explain what that is, 'cause I can't see one)....rewriting the divorce laws (only if they're gender specific at the moment, and Microsoft Word has this nifty find/replace function which would make changing the terminology cost less then a pentagon hammer), changing all the rules for beneficiaries, re-writing the entire tax code (more business for me but..) yadda, yadda, yadda. If you really think the fact that some legal frameworks might have to change is a reason to deny a specific subset of loving, committed, monogamous couples the same rights, privileges and responsibilities that you enjoy, then there's not much to left to say. But I would remind you that allowing women the right to vote in the early 20th century certainly carried a more onerous burden of change so I suggest you think long and hard before invoking the 'it's just too much of a pain in the ass' argument.

And for what? Is it fairness? Yes. Is it equality? Yep. What right is being taken away from a gay person? Marriage is a privilege not a right. Though I would be perfectly happy to debate the privilege v. right thing, I would instead ask you on what basis is this privilege being denied? Of what matter is it to the government whether two people who want to commit their lives to each other happen to both be men (or women)? And before you jump and scream about it's always been that way, I don't care about that argument. That we've been doing the wrong thing for a long time doesn't mean we should keep doing it. And before you say anything about your religion or anyone else's, I don't care about that argument either. Your religion is your's and your's alone, and it may provide you with an excellent moral compass but it's a crappy basis for making laws that effect people who believe differently. I'm pretty sure that's why the founding fathers wanted to keep the church and the state separate. No, what I would like is a sound, rational, clearly laid out argument that doesn't rely on fear, disgust or anything other then compelling logic to explain to me why a relationship between two men or two women is so hideous and wrong that we would deny those people the right to make medical decisions for each other, to inherit assets from each other, to willingly inflict the marriage tax penalty upon themselves or to otherwise enjoy the same government-bestowed benefits that you get to enjoy for no other reason then you happened to fall in love with a woman instead of a man. Can you do that for me?


vitus979

Nov 10, 05 9:57

Post #63 of 728 (2890 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [mclamb6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm curious as to whether there was a great deal of opposition from folks when no-fault divorce was coming en vogue? No fault divorce hasn't been around that long.

I am not sure how to quantify a "great deal of resistance." Certainly there was strident opposition to it, but I would venture to say that opposition to it, though passionate, was probably not as widespread as is opposition to gay marriage. That's a little bit speculative.

I honestly don't think that most people advocating for a "traditional" marriage would be out in force for changing divorce laws.

I disagree, but I don't have a crystal ball, either. What's important is that attitudes towards marriage change. If they change significantly enough, I suppose it could be argued that there's no point in actually changing the law, which is the situation I think groups like Focus on the Family are aiming for, wisely. My own opinion is that if our cultural attitudes about marriage changed to the point that we really believed it was permanent and sacred, those beliefs would inevitably find their way into law.

The divorce rates themselves would be indicative of this. (Unless you have some evidence that divorce rates amongst the traditional marriage lobby(for lack of better terms) divorce at lower rates than the rest of us heathens).

Much has been made of the higher divorce rate in the Bible Belt, but I think the evidence presented is misleading. Among regular church going Evangelical types, the divorce rate is much lower.

But that misses the point pretty much entirely, I think. The idea is not a competition to see who stays married the longest. The point is that we're all better off if everyone takes marriage more seriously for what it is.

As I mentioned in some other thread, I'm on a CS Lewis kick right now. I just read his essay "First and Second Things." (Which you can find here- don't worry, it's short:) http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37bb38967208.htm

I think that it's incredibly relevant to the current discussion about marriage. Ten points to any lazy Prot or Godless heathen who reads it, and 20 bonus points to anyone who can say why I think it's relevant.







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


Mike Lamb

Nov 10, 05 9:58

Post #64 of 728 (2890 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [marko16] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Why is it wrong, well nature says so.


Except there is homosexuality present in other animal species.

The ridiculous notion of "if we all go homo, we're gone in a hundred years" deserves little comment. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people couldn't "go homo" if they tried. (And yes there is a difference between having a same sex encounter and "going homo"). It wouldn't happen. It's a ridiculous "argument".



f/k/a mclamb6


vitus979

Nov 10, 05 10:04

Post #65 of 728 (2886 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [mclamb6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Except there is homosexuality present in other animal species.

I think maybe you, or marko, or both, are confusing examples in the natural world with the concept of natural law. They are not the same thing. I know it's obvious, just wanted to point it out to avoid possible confusion.

Carry on smartly.







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


Mike Lamb

Nov 10, 05 10:19

Post #66 of 728 (2883 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ok, another question. First the assumption: that no fault divorce laws were one of the big(if not THE) reason for a major groundshift in attitudes towards marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong. Now, with that said, if it's the divorce laws/regs that led to this change in perceptions, why are the gays being "punished" with such single minded focus for attitudes towards marriage that they themselves did very little to promote?



f/k/a mclamb6


Mr. Tibbs

Nov 10, 05 10:19

Post #67 of 728 (2883 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [marko16] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No that's wanting to be pissy. My view is the minority view but once again I did not vote because I knew my minority was so small I had no way of winning. You get it? I sat out because I knew the majority was going to win. I didn't put up a fight. I rolled over. I quit. I knew that majority ruled so instead I did laundry.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


adamb

Nov 10, 05 10:23

Post #68 of 728 (2878 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Casey:

----
It is like opening up a strip bar on the corner of your street.
----

No it is not, not at all.
Strip clubs and bars bring a criminal element, that's what causes problems. Not only do they attract an already-criminal element, but they fuel all of it with a mind-altering drug.
Strip clubs double that problem by attracting sexual predators (not all who go to strip clubs are, of course, but they come).

Do you notice how I explained that problem without resorting to obtuse and meaningless analogies? Please do the same.


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Marriage is a privilege not a right.
----

Not only is it a right, it is a fundamental right. 1967 - Loving vs. Virginia.


----
This is all about a small group trying to force a majority to accept their lifestyles and they know they can't win in the court of public opinion, so they go after the liberal judges to try and get people to "accept" them.
----

How would two homosexuals getting married be forcing you to "accept their lifestyles"?



vitus:

----
Certainly there was strident opposition to it, but I would venture to say that opposition to it, though passionate, was probably not as widespread as is opposition to gay marriage.
----

Why do you think that is?


----
Among regular church going Evangelical types, the divorce rate is much lower.
----

Wrong again!
It's higher.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/baptist_divorce.html
More than atheists and agnostics, actually.

But please do not look inwards, my lovely Christian friends, continue to throw stones.


vitus979

Nov 10, 05 10:25

Post #69 of 728 (2877 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [mclamb6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

First the assumption: that no fault divorce laws were one of the big(if not THE) reason for a major groundshift in attitudes towards marriage. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think I'd put it that way. I think no-fault divorce laws could only have come about if there had already been a pretty major groundshift in marriage attitudes. (Which is why I'm hesitant to say how widespread opposition to no-fault laws were at the time, but not hesitant to say that they faced passionate opposition.) On the other hand, I think it's clear that they do serve to ossify those attitudes.

if it's the divorce laws/regs that led to this change in perceptions, why are the gays being "punished" with such single minded focus for attitudes towards marriage that they themselves did very little to promote?

Uhh . . . I'm not sure I'm following you. I am not trying to punish gays for divorce. I'm trying to prevent further damage to an institution that's already in sad shape.







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


Mr. Tibbs

Nov 10, 05 10:26

Post #70 of 728 (2877 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ok what natural law makes legal fag hook ups soooo bad?

Also, since Casey bombed it, how does gay marriage weaken your, Vitus 979, marriage?
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


vitus979

Nov 10, 05 10:28

Post #71 of 728 (2876 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ok what natural law makes legal fag hook ups soooo bad?

Tibbs, I have no more confidence in my ability to explain natural law to you than I have in my ability to explain moral relativism to your brother.

Let those who have ears hear.







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


vitus979

Nov 10, 05 10:32

Post #72 of 728 (2874 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [adamb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wrong again!
It's higher.
http://www.adherents.com/...baptist_divorce.html
More than atheists and agnostics, actually.


Maybe you didn't read the part where I said "among regular church going Evangelical types." That means, since this is another concept you seem to be fuzzy on, people who go to church on a regular basis. Which means, see, that the link you posted to does nothing to refute my claim.







"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


YaHey

Nov 10, 05 10:44

Post #73 of 728 (2868 views)
Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
I understand that marriage was only invented a few centuries ago. Really only happened when organized religion got a hold of society. I don't know if this is true

It most certainly is not.

I could probably research it

You really should. You'll find it quite easy, I'd think.

I think gays want the laws to recognize them legally for property and other legal rights.

A canard refuted by the simple fact that even where they enjoy the legal rights of marriage, they aren't satisfied.
OK, I took your advice and researched marriage, First and foremost, there are a lot of different kinds of marriages that have been accepted by societies over history: (and not all societies have had a "formal" union that you would consider marriage)
  • polygamy
  • polygyny
  • polyandry
  • endogamy
  • exogamy
  • common law marriage
  • monogamy


  • We've outlawed many types of marriages that have existed over many centuries, and are still accepted by some societies. In addition, we've outlawed many practices related to marriage including marriage by proxy and dowry. We even look down upon arranged marriages.

    So the marriage we know today only started in the 1500's - There appeared to be many marriages taking place without witness or ceremony in the 1500's. The Council of Trent was so disturbed by this, that they decreed in 1563 that marriages should be celebrated in the presence of a priest and at least two witnesses. Marriage took on a new role of saving men and women from being sinful, and of procreation. Love wasn't a necessary ingredient for marriage during this era.

    So this whole notion of marriage as seen by the ultra-conservatives of Texas and elsewhere is merely a ruse to attempt to get society to conform to their way of thinking, to scare ignorant persons and make them less tolerant towards their fellow human beings, and to distort the truth.

    In fact "marriage" can be thought of as evolving union between two persons. Our current view today will change over the years.


    Mr. Tibbs

    Nov 10, 05 10:44

    Post #74 of 728 (2953 views)
    Re: Hooray Texas! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

    "Tibbs, I have no more confidence in my ability to explain natural law to you than I have in my ability to explain moral relativism to your brother."


    So you don't have an answer? If you don't know the information then are going to make the argument? This just proves my point. You don't want gays to marry because you don't approve of the lifestyle and instead of working hard and doing the things it takes too change the state of marriage is the US you think cutting a super small group out makes a diffrence.
    customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


    Mr. Tibbs

    Nov 10, 05 10:46

    Post #75 of 728 (2951 views)
    Re: Hooray Texas! [tritnow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

    Why do you have to use facts? Why do you hate marriage?
    customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

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