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Most important run for marathon training?
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rpeterson
May 30, 12 13:34
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Most important run for marathon training?
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So, I'm training for a marathon and a HIM, currently doing ~45mpw with 2 8 mile tempo runs and a long run of 15. The long run is right about 2 hours, and I have a hard time getting myself to run longer than that in training, so I was thinking of upping my tempo runs in both length and pace (though not at the same time).
I talked to some friends who do marathons, and they all say I should be getting my long run up first, but they're all pretty slow runners, and I'm trying to get a BQ, so I'm not sure if it's the most appropriate advice for me.
So, long run up, or harder runs up? What say you Slowtwitch brain collective.
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LTBlowUp
May 30, 12 13:37
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long runs. No point in being able to run 10 miles fast if you have to start walking at mile 20.
Cheesy Bottom
May 30, 12 13:41
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Do half marathons, you will be better prepared with that weekly volume and the long run you are doing.
There is no shame in halfs. Personally, my run funometer is empty at two hours.
PJG
May 30, 12 13:44
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long Runs! I have learned the hard way.
I was a superstar through mile 16 of the NYC Marathon and barely remember 5th Ave.
After the race I found out my family was tracking me online and watched me self destruct in real time.
karma
May 30, 12 13:48
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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The most important run is your next run. If you don't treat them all as high quality workouts with a purpose you might as well be whistling dixie. Personally I do not beleive in running "junk miles". Run 6 days a week and get that mileage up to 60-75 per week and see how your body responds. You don't say how far out from either your HIM or your Marathon you are and which comes first. Not enough info to intelligently answer your question on volume versus speed/tempo.
Dave Stark
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USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
Borden
May 30, 12 13:48
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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When I was trying to squeak under 3 hrs, the big workouts of my last 4 weeks pre-taper were in 2 week cycles of
1st week of cycle
early week threshold like 3x1mile at threshold pace
mid week tempo as 15'WU, 45 (60' 2nd cycle) Marathon Pace, 5-10'CD
week end Long Run as 30' Easy, 60' MP, 30' Easy, 30' MP
2nd week of cycle
early week threshold like 3x1mile at threshold pace
mid week tempo as 15'WU, 60' Marathon Pace, 5-10' CD
week end medium-long run 15' easy, 60' MP, 15 easy, (30 more minutes 2nd cycle)
I built up to this and repeated it twice before my marathon. Then I would taper, recover and start it back up between races. But, I love running too. If I wasn't feeling a workout, I would break the time up (instead of 60', I'd do 20'x3 with short rests) or I would drop to easy pace and do the time. If easy pace was still uncomfortable, I'd bag it. I was not tri training. I hope that helps.
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rpeterson
May 30, 12 13:52
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [karma]
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Good point, here's some more info.
I'm running 6 times a week, plan on working my way up to at least 60 before the race which is the first weekend in October (5 weeks after the HIM).
I can do a half in 1:21.
I just don't like running longer than 2 hours, it's mentally draining when I don't have a group, and no one wants to run with me for 2+ hours at a time.
So with all that, would I be better off increasing my 15 miles up to 20+, or get my 2 tempo runs up to 13-14 at a much higher pace. I can do the long runs if everyone thinks it's better, I'm just hoping someone has experience doing what I want with good results.
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jackmott
May 30, 12 13:53
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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the most important run is getting as many miles a week in as your body can tolerate.
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AMT04
May 30, 12 14:00
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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I'll go against the grain here. Depending how far our you are from your marathon, I don't think there's any need to go above 2-2.5hrs on your long runs at this point. Leading up to the race I would add a few of race similation runs around 20 miles, but otherwise the extra distance on those long runs aren't helping you as much as their hurting you. Knock out solid long runs that finish at a tempo pace, and then focus on recovering for your next run.
I was able to run low 3hrs without any runs longer than 90 minutes, with a significant negative split on the two halves. Good tempo sessions and threshold interval sessions were very effective at increasing my run fitness and building endurance. Those sessions were short enough that I was able to recover and have another quality run my next session.
I'm certainly not the most experience runner though, so take my input as an n=1.
-Andrew
SpicedRum
May 30, 12 14:17
Post #10 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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all of them.
Bypasskid
May 30, 12 14:28
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [SpicedRum]
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my longest run is 15 in training and i get very decent marathon results and IM results.
its quality over quantity. why kill yourself?
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DC Pattie
May 30, 12 15:16
Post #12 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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35K at race pace about 4 weeks out. That's my indicator piece.
But I think the most important aspect is just getting your weekly mile total up. Everyone (save the folks running 120 miles +) has room to go up and if done correctly will benefit from the extra milage. So if your running 40 MPW, try 55 MPW.
(This post was
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by DC Pattie on May 30, 12 15:19)
Thomas Gerlach
May 30, 12 17:23
Post #13 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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It probably really depends on your background more than anything. If you don't have the base miles in over many years then working on the long run can be a good thing. For me, the long run is absolutely worthless - in fact in my build up to St. George my longest continuous run was on the order of 10 miles and that was during my base building phase like 3-4 months before the event. I did go to the track though and bang out 4 or 5 x 3 miles at about open marathon pace and maybe descending down to a half marathon pace by the very end. I take about 5-10 minutes rest between each 3 miles and work on loosing up the body.
For the me, the bread and butter is going to the track and doing sub-threshold work working on raising my lactate threshold. If you raise that bar your sustainable pace at any distance moves up assuming your body has the proper durability. Knock out a quick 3-mile just under 5k pace and do that over and over again. People who talk about falling apart at mile 16, 18, 20 usually just went out too hard.
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Greggor
May 30, 12 17:45
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Long runs, you think it is draining to go 15 miles-try tacking on those extra 11 at the end having not gone longer than 15. Almost everyone fails to meet their "projected" marathon time using the various calculators or VDot tables (McMillan runnig calc most commonly used these days). Why is that? Lack of endurance. Worst I have been off is by 2 minutes over the distance of the marathon. Get in the long runs, get them up to 20-22 range, when they get easy but boring start picking up the pace the last 6 miles finishing 30s/mile faster than race pace. If you get in 5-8 long runs going into a marathon, you will be faster at all distances and BQ will likely be trivial.
Of course, this might come at a sacrifice of your optimal training for the HIM.
NAB777
May 30, 12 17:51
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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A 2.14 marathoner once told me two things about training for a marathon.
1) If you only run once a week, make it a long run (inferring that it is the most important run)
2) Never run your long runs too hard.
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wheels2
May 30, 12 17:54
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [SpicedRum]
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SpicedRum wrote:
all of them.
Bingo....
rhayden
May 30, 12 17:57
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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Greggor wrote:
Long runs, you think it is draining to go 15 miles-try tacking on those extra 11 at the end having not gone longer than 15. Almost everyone fails to meet their "projected" marathon time using the various calculators or VDot tables (McMillan runnig calc most commonly used these days). Why is that? Lack of endurance. Worst I have been off is by 2 minutes over the distance of the marathon. Get in the long runs, get them up to 20-22 range, when they get easy but boring start picking up the pace the last 6 miles finishing 30s/mile faster than race pace. If you get in 5-8 long runs going into a marathon, you will be faster at all distances and BQ will likely be trivial.
Of course, this might come at a sacrifice of your optimal training for the HIM.
x2 on this!
if the OP can run a 1:21 half then all that is required for BQ is endurance....which will only come with long runs.
Mad Jee
May 30, 12 18:16
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [DC Pattie]
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35K at race pace about 4 weeks out. That's my indicator piece.
Almost 22 miles at race pace as a workout?
For me, 15 miles done at marathon pace 4 weeks out indicates I am on track.
You're doing 85% of the race in training? I don't do
any
runs that long, and anything 20+ is done at probably 1 minute slower than race pace per mile, if not more.
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WillyMFire
May 30, 12 18:37
Post #19 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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15 miles with a good chunk of race pace thrown in should be good if your overall weekly mileage is high (50+). I have found that at least for me, running over 18 is pretty pointless and does more harm than good.
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Green Barf
May 30, 12 18:45
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [WillyMFire]
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This is the easiest question ever posed on here.
The most important run is the second run you do each day. End of story. Every serious marathoner, every, runs doubles.
You're welcome.
(This post was
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Green Barf
May 30, 12 19:28
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf]
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http://www.letsrun.com/...d=2472389&page=0
For those of you who think the long run is the most important, I dare you to read this whole thread and stand by that comment. Malmo is a 2:12 marathoner and former American record holding in the half marathon, and is clearly one of the most knowledgeable runners out there.
Borden
May 30, 12 19:56
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf]
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Green Barf wrote:
http://www.letsrun.com/...d=2472389&page=0
For those of you who think the long run is the most important, I dare you to read this whole thread and stand by that comment. Malmo is a 2:12 marathoner and former American record holding in the half marathon, and is clearly one of the most knowledgeable runners out there.
Are 2x/day runs beneficial for triathlete training?
At what mileage should we introduce the second run?
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knobjob
May 30, 12 22:04
Post #23 of 38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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All runs matter. But for marathons the long run matters most. Weird shit happens to you after 3 hrs of running. Best to work out those kinks in training.
LTBlowUp
May 31, 12 6:34
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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So run the first 2 hours solo, and then have someone meet up with you for the last hour.
CJS25
May 31, 12 6:38
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [PJG]
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Haha this happened to me at my first ever marathon in 2005 (Chicago)...went out with crazy expectations by starting to run in the 2:55 pace group...blew up after 25k, walked, shuffled and jogged the remainder for a horrid finish. This all while several close friends were getting text updates haha...pretty embarrassing.
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TimBikeToo
May 31, 12 7:31
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Why don't you run an hour solo before finding a group/friend to join you for an additional 90min?
Rowleska
May 31, 12 9:25
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [TimBikeToo]
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I've only run 4 marathons so I'm not an expert, however I do seem to hit my numbers pretty well.
I've tried a few different approaches as far as MPW is concerned. Most of my runs were 10+ miles long. Most of my runs were close to race pace (some faster, some slower).
My first marathon I did a hal higdon plan. Maybe intermediate 2 or something.
For Columbus I think I maxed out at 70 mpw, but I had given up swimming and biking entirely.
For Boston I ran a half marathon every other day and 2x on weekends. Mostly at race pace. I was still swimming and biking the other days.
For Cleveland I was totally burnt out from Boston and never got must past 40 mpw at all. (pr'd by about 30 seconds - It was HOT)
Most of my times were faster or equal to what I expected with the exception of Boston which nearly killed me.
For me it's all tempo runs normally 10+ miles. I did a 20 mile race simulation before every marathon. For my last one it was accurate to the second! (Officially I ran slower, but my garmin was also off due to course measurement 26.43 miles).
sweddy
May 31, 12 9:36
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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Clearly it's important to be comfortable in your long runs, including several in the 3-hr range. Let's call that table stakes.
Beyond that I've seen the best performances out of myself and others when incorporating a regular mid-week semi-long run. Particularly if it's got a nice chunky tempo piece in the middle. Like a 90-minute run that includes a 40-minute tempo right in the middle.
Ran a 3:05 at age 50 doing this, with weekly volume of around 50 miles on good weeks, might have hit 60 once or twice.
Printer86
May 31, 12 10:56
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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This is a good thread. Different people can point to different runs that got them ready for the marathon. I think that marathon pace runs in the 13-15 mile range are great confidence builders, but long runs are key to running a marathon.
Long runs are between 18-22 miles run every other week. I know a lot of people that run the first 10-14 miles of their long run alone and then jump into a race for the balance of the run.
The number of runs you do each week should equate to the first digit of your weekly mileage +1. Example, a 50 mile week should take 6 runs and a 70 mile week should take 8 runs.
Search the fall marathon training thread from last year to get some ideas too.
Good Luck
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denali2001
May 31, 12 11:28
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [jackmott]
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This FTW. Long run is overrated. Focus on weekly mileage. Beginner to even intermediate marathoners stress about the long run so much that they forget about the other six days of the week. Let's put it this way... if you get yourself to running 8-10 miles every day, then there is no such thing as a long run anymore. You just wake up and knock off a twenty miler without thinking twice.
jonahsdad
May 31, 12 13:23
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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My 3 core workouts - got to 2:39 with these and 70+ mpw
-long runs - up to 22 for me. 18-20 is probably sufficient. Some say do these easy, I liked to gradually increase the pace with the last 25% about 10-20 seconds off of race pace.
-8-10 mile tempos at marathon race pace.
-3-5 mile tempo at between 10K and half marathon race pace (the true classic "tempo" run)
Most people can't do all three every week and still get adequate recovery. A 10-14 day cycle or 2 out of 3 each week will work.
Side note: Doubles are not worth it unless you are at 60+ mpw, especially if you are cutting back on your first run in order to do the second.
Greggor
May 31, 12 14:59
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Green Barf]
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That is funny, I thought as I ran this morning that you were referring to George Malley. Fine for a guy doing 145+ miles per week, but a guy doing 45 and hoping to go for a BQ and also HIM? Seriously? The general consensus has been that two a days become a necessity when you hit ~75 mpw (according to Pfitzinger, won Olympic Trials - Malmo was in that race as well). I guess if you like getting dressed and undressed that much, have at it, just doesn't leave much time for the swim and the bike.
triitagain
Jun 5, 12 19:04
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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Personally, having just 4 marathons under my belt, I would say the long runs are most important. Half marathons and marathons are two different animals, you may be able to do a half in 1:30:00 but that really has no bearing on a 26.2 mile run. Some will say that 20 mile long runs are enough and I'm sure if you run a couple of 20 milers you will finish a full M but you will be ill prepared for whats coming at mile 22 or 23. I think all first timers should run a full in practice about 6 weeks out from their race.
The wall they speak of is when your body turns to burning fat for fuel and when it happens the first time it's a shock to you and your body. If you fuel right during the race the wall is minimal, if not, it is not a fun place to be during your first marathon. The old race plans had you running 30 as your longest and it teaches you and your body something about long endurance.
If you want to have a fun and enjoyable first marathon, do your long runs on a good plan schedule on the weekends and get your mileage in during the week with tempo runs and such. If you say you don't like running more than 2 hours , matbe a full marathon isn't for you and stick to halfs . It certainly will benefit your HIM aspirations.
snackchair
Jun 6, 12 7:25
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Greggor]
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There's no set cutoff for when you should start doubling. The goal in training is to try to acheive the maximum sustainable load. If the only way you can hit 'x' miles per week is to split your runs, then you should do so, regardless of how much you're running. Keep in mind the toll of 75 mpw on the body isn't the same for all runners. Someone who's been high high mileage for years probably can afford to do 75 in singles... but for anyone upping their mileage to reach that for the first time, I would recommend doubles starting much eariler.
A good metric is the number of runs per week is equal to the first digit of the mileage plus at least 1, though I think 2 is better if you're going into uncharted terriority (50mpw=7 runs, 60=8 runs, 70=9 runs, etc).
If you have time, there's no detriment to splitting your runs, especially on easy days. Two 5's is much easier on the body than 10 straight.
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Newyorkfan21
Jun 6, 12 7:33
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [rpeterson]
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rpeterson wrote:
So, I'm training for a marathon and a HIM, currently doing ~45mpw with 2 8 mile tempo runs and a long run of 15. The long run is right about 2 hours, and I have a hard time getting myself to run longer than that in training, so I was thinking of upping my tempo runs in both length and pace (though not at the same time).
I talked to some friends who do marathons, and they all say I should be getting my long run up first, but they're all pretty slow runners, and I'm trying to get a BQ, so I'm not sure if it's the most appropriate advice for me.
So, long run up, or harder runs up? What say you Slowtwitch brain collective.
Running a fast marathon or a fast HIM run isn't about just increasing your long runs.
Running is about frequency and intensity. I have shaved around 8-10 minutes off my HIM run time within 1 year off that philosophy.
rdmyers
Jun 7, 12 8:40
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [snackchair]
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Quote:
Someone who's been high high mileage for years probably can afford to do 75 in singles... but for anyone upping their mileage to reach that for the first time, I would recommend doubles starting much eariler.
I've only run 1/2 marathons, and started running late in life, when I was close to 40yo. I can vouch for the statement above from personal experience. You need to arrive at start line injury free.
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Nasrettin Hoca
Jun 7, 12 11:12
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Printer86]
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Printer86 wrote:
This is a good thread. Different people can point to different runs that got them ready for the marathon.
+ 1
Obviously, different things work for different people at different times. That's ok though, you change up your training from time to time and find out what works for you.
My first running career, in the Army 40 years ago, was 5 milers 4 times a day. One before breakfast, 2 to go there and back to a class or an exercise and 5 in the evening on a rock track around a wrecked helicopter. So I was doing about 100 mpw with weekends off. But I could do a 20 "cross country" in about 2.5 hours with that. Not easy, pretty well wiped after, but doable.
Given what I know now, doing a 20 after banging out a zillion 5s, is ridiculous. No one at RW recommends this. But the Army seems to know how to do these things. I'm getting a little support above with those that say the doubles. No doubt, they jack up the overall weekly mileage more than running only once per day.
Of course the Army isn't interested in a BQ. They have different objectives.
I started again at 60 and did my first Marathon last year. My most important run, was a 26 (much walking) I did 4 months before. Gave me the feel for the distance and do the rest of my training with that as a yardstick.
PapaBear
Jun 7, 12 12:28
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Re: Most important run for marathon training? [Nasrettin Hoca]
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OK- how about this question: What is the most Important bike workout for [the bike leg of] an Ironman?
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