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Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video

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Borden

Mar 22, 12 7:08

Post #1 of 48 (3379 views)

Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video	Quote \| Reply

This is my first go for online aid. I've been at it 2 years. My 3rd day at the pool, I did a the HiM distance in a 53:xx just to make sure I would make the cutoff. I did Total Immersion to get to 2:00 and hit a 37' HiM swim split, a private Coach to get to 1:50, now Endurance Nation's first few weeks has me down to 1:40 (probably just from the bump in yardage, but I'll take it). I did the first week of Finding Freestyle, but I find that I'm just drowning my way across the pool trying to do the Statue of Liberty drill. I'm sure it works, and I haven't ruled it out, but I am seeing results with swimming hard and volume right now so I dont want to abandon it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJqOZkGT50w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DrYIQb3RBQ

One of these is head on, the other she is walking on deck . It was during my warm up. I wanted a faster pace lap too, but the YMCA pool police scolded us for running a camera.

I noticed a thing or two, but any feedback you can give me ABOUT SWIMMING :) is appreciated. I'm sure eveyone will love my sportsbra-esque tan line.

My ST logs are up to date (no running because of ITBS).
Just did a 1kTT@ 16:45 for a ~1:40/100
25 yard pool
I've been at ~10k yards/wk the last 6 weeks or so. Thats an all time high for me. I am shooting for bigger weeks, but honestly I find myself getting in the pool completely spent as I've bumped the yardage up.

Thanks guys. I'm starting to hate swimming less now that I am seeing progress but its slow going. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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duffman

Mar 22, 12 7:20

Post #2 of 48 (3347 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

arms crossing over
tighten up kick
pull is weak--couldn't tell for sure why you've got to pull more water though, paddles maybe?
appears that you're trying to "look pretty," turn it over faster and forget style points
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DarkSpeedWorks

Mar 22, 12 7:22

Post #3 of 48 (3335 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

It is very difficult to tell from your video, but the main thing is that your pull seems not to be not very effectual. You are just slicing your arms through the water, you're not doing much to 'grab' or catch the water. If I could see a lot better, I could probably give you more info. What did your private one-on-one coach say about it? Any comments about early vertical forearm? Did he/she tell you how to correct the problems?

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ratherbeswimmin

Mar 22, 12 7:24

Post #4 of 48 (3329 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

You really need to get/borrow and underwater camera if you're looking for comprehensive swim analysis via the internet.

Cervelo Apple

Mar 22, 12 7:40

Post #5 of 48 (3293 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Not bad. You are doing something weird with your left wrist - it's like being arched or something just as you are entering the water. Sure you have some cross-over as well with the left arm (if you are fast and cross-overing..and not seeing pain...it could be okay for a triathlete though) but I would say just work on proper hand entry. You could also pick up the pace a little bit.

Just looks like you need to work on the concept of reaching and then pushing that water down. Fingers together..etc.

Kick is okay...better than those triathletes that don't believe in kicking.

KING_COOPA

Mar 22, 12 7:45

Post #6 of 48 (3279 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

i'll second what others have said: forget the "style points" and really get your hands/arms in the water.
your wrists look bent when they enter the water, like you're trying for some sort of soft landing.
really slam those fingers into the water at an angle and work on pulling hard.

i am by no means a swim expert, but that's just what i see.

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ironeric2010

Mar 22, 12 8:26

Post #7 of 48 (3189 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The most obvious thing to me....on the reentry, your hand is crossing over your centerline, thereby shortening your full extension length. Think about making yourself as long as possible on the reach.

bluepoint

Mar 22, 12 9:04

Post #8 of 48 (3122 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [DarkSpeedWorks] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

x2

To the OP - it doesn't look like you're grabbing any water. It would be interesting to see what you look like if all you changed was trying to really grab the water.

MKirk

Mar 22, 12 9:34

Post #9 of 48 (3046 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'm by no means even remotely close to being an expert, but 1st thing I saw and has already been mentioned - you have no pull - or a very week on at that - good pull = forward motion.
What has helped me strengthen my pull is using a pull bouy with and without paddles. Do a search on using paddles as these can cause injury if your not careful.

Michael

skip

Mar 22, 12 10:37

Post #10 of 48 (2913 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

As noted above you seem to be lacking propulsion from your pull - the question is why. I think it's because you have a dropped elbow - which means you are losing the surface area of your forearm - your elbow is coming down and in towards your centerline and then sliding back toward your feet. You need to keep it up and out and grip more water with your arm, not just your hand. Right now your arm is taking the path of least resistance until you recover it, you want the path of most, or at least more resistance. One way to visualize this is to think about reaching over a barrel that is horizontal underneath you at your chest/neck and trying to lever yourself over the barrel. Not above the water, but after your hand enters and moves forward.

Here's an article that might help:

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/...d_dropped_elbow.html

jbank

Mar 22, 12 11:25

Post #11 of 48 (2819 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Looks like you have plenty of stuff to work on (that's great by the way, it would be frustrating if you were doing everything right and were still slow). I'm not an expert, so take my list with a grain of salt. Many of these are noted by others, but I'll list all that I saw:
1.) Your cocked left wrist out of the water is weird. Not sure it is "wrong", but definitely not standard.
2.) You seem to try to reach all the way over the water, it is ok to let your hand enter earlier than that.
3.) You are definitely reaching across the center line of your body.
4.) Your body position slowly gets worse as the lap progresses; I can see your feet at the surface at the beginning and then they sink never to surface again. On good swimmers, you'll see their feet barely breaking the water surface.
5.) Try to only breathe with one goggle out of the water. You don't need to turn your head that far.
6.) Your arm timing seems slightly off to me; I think you could benefit by swimming a bit more "front-quadrant".
7.) You are babying the water a bit. You don't have to be so nice to it. ;)

It seems telling to me that you find the SoL or 3-6-3 drill to cause "drowning". If you had a better body position, none of the other listed "flaws" would make it hard to do SoL. It might be as simple as realizing that your leading hand can be 6 inches under the water surface when fully extended. That tends to add a bit of balance that might make all the difference for you. I'd suggest that getting video feedback about a drill like SoL will be more valuable since it will help isolate one issue at a time. A lot of the other issues can be pretty confounding; you might be doing one weird thing to correct some other more fundamental flaw. A good coach will steer you toward correcting that more fundamental flaw first (as opposed to my crappy laundry list of things that look "funny"). Good luck.

jaretj

Mar 22, 12 12:14

Post #12 of 48 (2747 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

It's just as DarkSpeedWorks said:

"...but the main thing is that your pull seems not to be not very effectual. You are just slicing your arms through the water, you're not doing much to 'grab' or catch the water."

You drop your elbows immediately as you start your pull. That is your main problem.

Your balance seems good, your kick seems half way decent, the crossover is minor.

Get someone to teach you to grab more water and you'll gain a whole lot.

jaretj

YTZ

Mar 22, 12 12:30

Post #13 of 48 (2719 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [jaretj] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Body position corrected by kick, recovery is fine, You need to enter the water wider and at an angle of about 20-25 degrees, very shallow entry, keep wrist straight on entry. You drop elbow immediately with pull, and pull is not very long. You need to do drills emphasizing arm entry and keeping elbows up high during catch and pull phase as well as timing your kick properly.
FYI u need work, swimming yardage with your current swim stroke will get u fit but not fast in the pool. Best of luck.

Sasquatch

Mar 22, 12 13:02

Post #14 of 48 (2651 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

doesn't look like you are pulling any water. You are dropping your elbow. Put your hand in the water, rotate at the elbow until your fingers are pointing at the bottom of the pool and pull so that you are moviing water with your hand and forearm. You're pulling your arm through the water instead of pushing water with your arm.

cam2win

Mar 22, 12 13:21

Post #15 of 48 (2603 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

A lot of people are talking about your "pull" and they are correct, it's an issue and one that others have already provided some advice on. I am not sure it's your "biggest" issue.

A few others have mentioned either "kick" or "body positioning", I think this is your bigger issue.

To put it plain and simple, you need work on getting your hips/a$$ up higher in the water when you swim. This will allow you to maintain a small kick. You almost/pretty much want the top of your butt to either break through the top of the waters surface or very close.

For reference when I see people in the pool dragging their hips and they're ankle doesn't break the waters surface with their kick I think of a boat trying to get up on plane. Notice how when you get in a boat and you throttle it but it takes a bit before it comes up on plane but there is a lot of throttle on the gas, then it gets on plane and really takes off? A lot of time in swimming it's the same thing, you are putting out similar power to others around you, but your body position is to low/not up on plane you don't go as fast. Get your body position right and learn to hold/maintain it longer and that will make you faster. Why do you think everyone love's swimming in wetsuits? It pick their ass up for them and gets them higher in the water then they normally are, it also helps hold them there while once fatigue sets in.

In the future, don't post you're warm up swim. Everybody looks good during warm up, you're fresh. Post the last 500 yards you swim when you're good and tired and you're natural form can be seen. This shows your real issues.

If you are an Endurance Nation member you should send this video or a new one to Rich, guy swam in college and knows his sh!t. He swims 55:xx Ironmans all day long.

mudjumper

Mar 22, 12 13:22

Post #16 of 48 (2601 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

here's why you're not getting any grab in the water. There is hardly any sculling in your stroke. You're hand is doing the Mississippi paddle-boat stroke. Extension is OK, but even though there is some movement with your elbow, your hands are practically following a straight path. That results in pushing "dirty" water. Sculling lets your hands always touch "clean" water and getting better 'grab' or propulsion.

Try some of these drills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHt4J6nJvo

snackchair

Mar 22, 12 13:24

Post #17 of 48 (2593 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I'll echo the comments about not catching water.

A helpful thing to think about is pushing the water backwards as soon as your arm enters the water. Attempting to do so will force an early vertical forearm and force you to finish your stroke.

I would get a pool buoy and really just focus on pulling. Do some work with paddles as well. Cut out having to worry about kick and body position and just focus on learning to push the water backwards.
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SH

Mar 22, 12 13:34

Post #18 of 48 (2568 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

This comment is in critical mode. Not trying to be a jerk -- just easier to write.

1.) Don't waste your time gliding/kicking off the walls, just start swimming immediately. That glide/kick is doing nothing for you. Someday, when you have better hops, better streamline, better kick, and are racing a sprint swim race we can reevaluate that.
2.) Grab more water at the beginning. Look into early vertical forearm (EVF) like others have said. Go to youtube and put that phrase in search.
3.) Forget about your wrist flip at the end of the stroke. Most propulsion happens at the beginning/middle of the stroke, not the end.
3.) Like jbank says... put some effort into it. The water can take it.
4.) You will probably need more shoulder flexibility than you currently have to apply good power though the whole "EVF" movement. There may be some shoulder flexibility videos on youtube as well.

Good Luck!

Philosoraptor

Mar 22, 12 15:38

Post #19 of 48 (2470 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I have found that one handed drills have been really useful for improving my catch. These can be done a couple of ways. The easiest is to just hold a kickboard in front (a touch wider than your shoulder) and to just swim wit hthe other arm while taking breaths on the side you are swimming with. This really helps me to get a feel for the catch phase and is a good way to work on developing a high elbow/vertical forearm catch and to commit it to neuromuscular memory. As you get better at it, ditch the kickboard. If you get even better you can then let your non-swimming arm stay streamlined by your side. I find this particularly useful for developing the catch at full extension and for working on not dropping the forward arm when I breathe (say the left arm when I breathe on the right side or vice versa).

I think some of the stuff on swimsmooth.com would be useful for you. This is the online resource and dvd that I use and have found it very helpful.

need4speed

Mar 22, 12 16:04

Post #20 of 48 (2435 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The upper and lower halves of your body are disconnected. Your legs are kicking, your arms are moving, but they're not moving in synchronization. Freestyle swimming is a continuous movement from the tips of your fingers to the tips of your toes. The "rotation" you will hear people talk about is the critical component that links the stroke together and involves transferring the weight of your body from one side to the other. You don't have much rotation and your legs appear to be sinking a bit. This is probably the reason you are not getting much out of your pull.

Find a swim coach and work with them often. Listen to them and do what they say. Back off your running and biking if you need to, but you need to spend a lot of time in the water with someone who can help get you going.

(This post was edited by need4speed on Mar 22, 12 16:04)

lightheir

Mar 22, 12 17:00

Post #21 of 48 (2360 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [snackchair] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I don't have a great catch by any means, but I went from having a horrible catch to a halfway decent one.

I've found that the only way to really improve the catch after being aware of the correct EVF form, is to swim hard and a lot while trying to emulate it. Emphasizing technique for the catch at slower paces did very little for me, despite a lot of time spent on it. As you get progressively stronger, you will naturally go toward more EVF and a more powerful catch. Sounds like you're on the right track with 10k per week, hopefully with a good dose of intensity in there to keep the gains coming.

realAlbertan

Mar 22, 12 17:00

Post #22 of 48 (2358 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [Borden] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Low hips/High head, over rotation during your breathing is causing yiur hand to crossover. Dropped elbows, hands pull out short. Kicking from knees instead of your core.
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realAlbertan

Mar 22, 12 17:07

Post #23 of 48 (2347 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [SH] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Proper pushoffs are never wasted time. he'd lose 2-3 sec per 100 in training by following this suggestion. This is probably the one thing the OP is close to doing right by swim standards.

Why would anyone sandbag their pushoffs unless you were doing 25 or (lcm) 50 sprints simulating an in water start.
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(This post was edited by realAlbertan on Mar 22, 12 17:28)

SH

Mar 22, 12 20:07

Post #24 of 48 (2242 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [realAlbertan] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

No. There is a large oxygen cost for a proper push off so it had better be worth it. This guy's push off is definitely not worth it. Not only is he not breathing, but he is spending time below his swim velocity. He will be faster in training coming up and swimming sooner. Your buddy Ryan Cochrane is up and stroking in less than 2 seconds off the wall. Borden here takes almost 4 seconds before his first stroke. (Don't make me compare their kicking!)

realAlbertan

Mar 22, 12 21:48

Post #25 of 48 (2170 views)

Re: Why do I get out swam by the old ladies? Please analyze my Swim Video [SH] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

His knee kicking is making him sink, my point is there is more wrong than right and the op needs to focus on breaking the stroke down and building it back up. Those 2 seconds Ryan is underwater are the fastest 2 seconds n each 50.
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