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Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training
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nhluz
Feb 3, 12 8:03
Post #1 of 116
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Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training
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Don't know if you've seen this, but as it is a frequent topic for discussion, it might interest some if it hasn't been posted yet:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...174189?dopt=Abstract
Nuno
jyeager
Feb 3, 12 8:42
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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Cool. Not sure exactly what they mean by the term "Negative torque ". Seems like they are talking about the force applied upward on the upstroke...but the term has conotations of pushing downward on the upstroke to me.
Then in the results, they say that the more efficient cycling achieved SHORTENED the negative torque range, so the abstract seems inconsistent.
It's also not intuitive that strength training would make a cyclist faster via improved technique. How do the 2 relate?
matto
Feb 3, 12 8:52
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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Interesting that the emphasis wasn't on a stronger downward push, but on hip flexion exercises to help get the foot out of the way on the up stroke.
Although they mention they did 4 exercises but don't say what the others were.
yme
Feb 3, 12 9:15
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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Great, this subject is now going to send the ST experts into a tailspin, just what we need on a Friday ;o)
nhluz
Feb 3, 12 9:19
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [yme]
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That's a good thing, the back and forth part, right?
As long as we don't get too disturbed by people having views different from our own.
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triguy42
Feb 3, 12 9:54
Post #6 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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I predict a PowerCranks post in 3...2....1...
Odd choice of a test interval, though I suppose it may bear some relation to road racing. Sit in the pack submaximal for 3 hours and then charge to the line at peak power for the last 5 minutes. A 5 min interval is generally considered to be closer to a strength-related interval or VO2Max-type interval than an FTP-type interval of 10-20 minutes. So I guess strength training would probably contribute more to a shorter interval like this than would relate to a triathlon. I'd be more interested if they did the same test but ran 2 different tests...5 min interval and something like a 20 min interval. Oh well...
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SeasonsChange
Feb 3, 12 9:59
Post #7 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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why would they be doing heavy strength training in the first place?
morey000
Feb 3, 12 10:03
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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conclusion:
"adding heavy strength training to usual endurance training in well-trained cyclists improves pedalling efficacy"
no shit. Was there a theory out there that strength training wasn't going to improve performance?
jackmott
Feb 3, 12 10:09
Post #9 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [morey000]
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Someone here, either Andy Coggan or Tom A did an N=1 study on themselves where they did weight training, and while their lift numbers improved steadily it did not affect their FTP
morey000 wrote:
no shit. Was there a theory out there that strength training wasn't going to improve performance?
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Carl Spackler
Feb 3, 12 12:00
Post #10 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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In other news,
beetroot juice
keeps you regular and improves TT performance.
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:05
Post #11 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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to me this seems like a no brainer, as you build muscle you're going to pedal more efficiently. The same has been mentioned about swim fitness and run fitness on this board before. It's just that strength training might not be as effective a use of your time as training is, hence why it's not recommended many age groupers strength train.
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klehner
Feb 3, 12 12:07
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
to me this seems like a no brainer, as you build muscle you're going to pedal more efficiently. The same has been mentioned about swim fitness and run fitness on this board before. It's just that strength training might not be as effective a use of your time as training is, hence why it's not recommended many age groupers strength train.
Why don't TTers and pursuiters look like track sprinters?
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:13
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [klehner]
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Efficiency. There are really two different methods in my mind for strength training. One, bulk up, which most 200, 100 sprinters prefer. Then there is lean muscle building, which is what ideally TT and pursuit riders should shoot for. In track sprinting often times the most explosive start is the winner. In TT or pursuit it's not just explosion but being able to hold that for longer periods which determines the winner. Most TT riders are bigger(taller) guys simply because they are the mix of the right mix of explosiveness and efficient enough to withstand a longer workload.
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devashish_paul
Feb 3, 12 12:15
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [nhluz]
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Pedaling efficiency + weight training in the same thread.
Why has this thread not exploded to 30,000 views and 800 posts yet?
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David B
Feb 3, 12 12:17
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [klehner]
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klehner wrote:
cjathey wrote:
to me this seems like a no brainer, as you build muscle you're going to pedal more efficiently. The same has been mentioned about swim fitness and run fitness on this board before. It's just that strength training might not be as effective a use of your time as training is, hence why it's not recommended many age groupers strength train.
Why don't TTers and pursuiters look like track sprinters?
Last I checked there is a big difference between 10-60 seconds of effort and (even for a short TT) up to 10 minutes of effort (at least in terms of physiology). Those things don't even come close to matching up. Plus, have you ever seen the quads on some track cyclists? Or even speed skaters for that matter? They are huge.
jackmott
Feb 3, 12 12:21
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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why would muscle mass make you more efficient?
Its possible that resistance training might make you more efficient for any number of reasons but muscle mass, lean or otherwise, would make you LESS efficient (more weight, more size) in and of itself.
Having more muscle also would not, in and of itself, reduce the oxygen you need to process to put out a given power.
Its very often demonstrated that many cyclists can LOSE mass, and keep the same power. Muscle isn't often the limiter, your oxygen is the limiter. Aerobic sport!
=)
cjathey wrote:
Efficiency. There are really two different methods in my mind for strength training. One, bulk up, which most 200, 100 sprinters prefer. Then there is lean muscle building, which is what ideally TT and pursuit riders should shoot for. In track sprinting often times the most explosive start is the winner. In TT or pursuit it's not just explosion but being able to hold that for longer periods which determines the winner. Most TT riders are bigger(taller) guys simply because they are the mix of the right mix of explosiveness and efficient enough to withstand a longer workload.
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:27
Post #17 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [jackmott]
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If you can't hold proper form that is also wasted energy right? Think of how much wattage is lost by an inefficient pedal stroke. By having the muscle support to back up a proper technique you will be more efficient. Also gym work doesn't always mean getting heavier. Lots can be said for correcting in-balances.
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Bmanners
Feb 3, 12 12:30
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [klehner]
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klehner wrote:
cjathey wrote:
to me this seems like a no brainer, as you build muscle you're going to pedal more efficiently. The same has been mentioned about swim fitness and run fitness on this board before. It's just that strength training might not be as effective a use of your time as training is, hence why it's not recommended many age groupers strength train.
Why don't TTers and pursuiters look like track sprinters?
If you had a 50 mile or longer track sprint they would Ken .
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jackmott
Feb 3, 12 12:34
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
If you can't hold proper form that is also wasted energy right?
Even Rasmussen held proper form, and he was a concentration camp victim.
Quote:
Think of how much wattage is lost by an inefficient pedal stroke.
at the biochemical level? tons. at the mechanical moving your feet around properly level? not much, and don't see why more muscle mass. or more one-rep maximal power would fix it.
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:36
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [jackmott]
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Stability muscles? That's about all I can think would be improved with that.
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S McGregor
Feb 3, 12 12:40
Post #21 of 116
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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cjathey wrote:
If you can't hold proper form that is also wasted energy right? Think of how much wattage is lost by an inefficient pedal stroke. By having the muscle support to back up a proper technique you will be more efficient. Also gym work doesn't always mean getting heavier. Lots can be said for correcting in-balances.
Wait, is this 2008? or 2006? or 2004? or 2003?.......
Shakes head. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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devashish_paul
Feb 3, 12 12:44
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [S McGregor]
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S McGregor wrote:
cjathey wrote:
If you can't hold proper form that is also wasted energy right? Think of how much wattage is lost by an inefficient pedal stroke. By having the muscle support to back up a proper technique you will be more efficient. Also gym work doesn't always mean getting heavier. Lots can be said for correcting in-balances.
Wait, is this 2008? or 2006? or 2004? or 2003?.......
Shakes head. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
It must be even before Dan came up with Slowtwitch and was ahead of his time!
Cjathey....how would you measure cycling efficiency? Total mechanical energy produced at the crank divided by (total heat produced by the body + total mechanical energy produced at crank) ?
Just asking how you would define efficiency and then how would you even measure it (if you define it as I did, it would be hard to measure the kilojoules of heat produced in a given time frame, vs total kilojoules of mechanical work that would be easy to measure with a quarq or SRM)?
Dev
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:44
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [S McGregor]
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The key thing about anything; you spend time on training you're going to get better. Obviously this has to be focused on the task but there's no surprise to me that people trained, and then they improved.
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triguy42
Feb 3, 12 12:45
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [cjathey]
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In a 5 minute workout, type IIb muscle fibers are going to have a larger contribution to your efforts. As the workout level gets longer and the output levels are more determined by your aerobic capacity, these IIb fibers are more and more irrelevant. I doubt Rasmussen had much in the way of developed IIb fibers... But like I said earlier, I can see how strength training (gaining IIb fiber capacity) could help on a short effort. It just means absolutely zero to triathletes, probably not even to people specializing in the super-sprint distances. Even a 10 mile bike is still at least 20 minutes for even the fastest of us...
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Chris Athey
Feb 3, 12 12:50
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Re: Cyclists Improve Pedalling Efficacy and Performance After Heavy Strength Training [triguy42]
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Well that's not entirely true. I can see a fairly large benefit in building muscle to sprint the initial part of the swim, but otherwise it is inefficient. I think this is why several swimmers struggle to really run well. As jack mott has mentioned muscle is very heavy. Someone like Sara Mclarty, albeit an amazing swimmer really hasn't done much in this sport the way she was hyped to. Yes she can win the swim, and then watch everyone catch and pass her, which in my mind is a very depressing way to race.
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