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Venge more aero than an s5?
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Ex-cyclist
Jan 26, 12 17:32
Post #26 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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Aralo wrote:
Idk. But I think it's all not so important. Base line is that the aero bikes are pretty much all very close and a lot better than a std. road bike design. Which I'm glad about since I can now actually choose one that I also like to look at (sorry but the S5 is ugly IMO) and maybe base my decision on other things than just aero. To me, 4-5 Watts less or more is all within reason. 10-20W not anymore...
The 20 watt figure comes from a standard road bike over an aero one. Looks like that's pretty much the score here.
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jeffp
Jan 26, 12 17:45
Post #27 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Tom A.]
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looks like in the peloton, you might save more energy on the Felt(0-5) less yaw, big draft :)
Sam Apoc
Jan 26, 12 17:47
Post #28 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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what this shows is that there is no difference.
valdlaw
Jan 26, 12 18:11
Post #29 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [aquaterra]
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aquaterra wrote:
Have the actual issue in my hands. They both got the same grade: 1.0 (the best).
Do they publish an English edition?
Aralo
Jan 26, 12 18:15
Post #30 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [SavageHouck]
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SavageHouck wrote:
If this proves anything, it is that my, "Eyeball Windtunnel" needs to be recalibrated. I thought for sure the S5 was better.
Yes, me too. But I'm glad the S5 is not way faster by a big margin. This leaves all of us who wanna go all aero some more options to consider.
rickn
Jan 26, 12 18:20
Post #31 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [SavageHouck]
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I like the s5 for what it is, but it sure doesn't appear like a 9 watt improvement over an s3 in this test. I'm basing that statement comparing how the felt ar and s3 did in the previous test, versus the ar and s5 in this one.
Lou3000
Jan 26, 12 18:23
Post #32 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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Agree, what this shows is that you don't have to ride a hideous bike to be as aero as possible. I think in the looks department it goes, in order, Venge, Foil, AR, and then the S5.
(though slightly in its defense, the S5 is not as bad in person and the new AR paint schemes are awful)
alexZA
Jan 26, 12 18:23
Post #33 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [rickn]
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I'd like to see some replies from Cevelo and Spesh before this thread goes wild with speculation!
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Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death.’ - The Rider, Tim Krabbe.
alexZA
Jan 26, 12 18:29
Post #34 of 165
(2458 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Aralo]
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Seems like the Venge kills it in the yaw sweet spot from 5 to 10 degrees...
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Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death.’ - The Rider, Tim Krabbe.
valdlaw
Jan 26, 12 18:30
Post #35 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Tom A.]
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Tom A. wrote:
Aralo wrote:
- Cervelo asked Tour to do the aero test WITH the aero bottle as the frame was design that way.
- Tour says the bottle was aerodynamically neutral. So no better but also no worse. They had it in the lower position in which case u can't mount a sec. bottle
Did they mount a bottle on the other frames and test? Wouldn't THAT be a more "real world", apples to apples comparison?
I wonder how the arundel bottle would fit and perform on the Venge frame (or my Shiv TT for that matter)? If I recall it was neutral on the Transition frame.
jackmott
Jan 26, 12 18:39
Post #36 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [SavageHouck]
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SavageHouck wrote:
If this proves anything, it is that my, "Eyeball Windtunnel" needs to be recalibrated. I thought for sure the S5 was better.
it might be, we need to know if the other bikes had a bottle or not =)
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alexZA
Jan 26, 12 18:39
Post #37 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [alexZA]
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I'm also surprised how far down the list the S5 is at zeo yaw.
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http://www.thealphadaily.com
Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death.’ - The Rider, Tim Krabbe.
(This post was
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by alexZA on Jan 26, 12 18:52)
alexZA
Jan 26, 12 18:55
Post #38 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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From the video it seems like the answer is no.
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Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive influence of civilisation. When you see an enemy lying on the ground, what’s your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing, you kick him to death.’ - The Rider, Tim Krabbe.
jackmott
Jan 26, 12 19:38
Post #39 of 165
(2357 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [alexZA]
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alexZA wrote:
From the video it seems like the answer is no.
well there ya go then!
unless it is a 45min-1 hour crit!
also, need both yaw directions
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r0cky
Jan 26, 12 20:45
Post #40 of 165
(2269 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jackmott]
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Well it makes sense why Cavendish liked his Venge, one of the most aerodynamic sprinters had the most aero road bike in the peleton. ;)
The results for the S5 are disappointing, certainly not backing up the claims made by Cervelo over the s3, the Scott Foil numbers aren't surprising, obviously the Scott design sacrifices a bit of aero for the weight/stiffness which was their design goal in the first place.
Like it's been mentioned though it's good to see all aero bikes being close to each other in performance, it does seem like one should get the bike that fits them better and is most aesthetically pleasing to them.
styrrell
Jan 26, 12 20:50
Post #41 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [r0cky]
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I'm interested in how Cav does this year. The Pinarellos have never looked particularly aero to me. He had a great 2011 and their seems to be some up and coming sprinters.
Styrrell
trail
Jan 26, 12 20:58
Post #42 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Tom A.]
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>Of course it's important. If carrying a bottle on an S5 has NO effect, but it has a huge effect on the other frames then you may be back to the 10-20W differences again.
True enough, but seems like a can of worms for testing. Cervelo has the S5 optimized for an Arundel Chrono and asked for special treatment. To test all bikes with bottles you'd have to go ask the other manufacturers which aero bottle they'd want their frames tested with (the Venge may have been designed with the Specialized bottle in mind), and pretty soon you might be testing with 2-4 different aero bottles, muddling the results even more.
I wouldn't have caved to Cervelo at all.
styrrell
Jan 26, 12 21:05
Post #43 of 165
(2246 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [trail]
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The Foil and Litespeed were supposed to be optimised for a round bottle, so they would have to test all the frames round bottles to be fair to people who prefer them ;-). I doubt an aero bottle makes a big difference from one frmae to another if you are careful to find one that fits well.
Styrrell
jeffp
Jan 26, 12 21:10
Post #44 of 165
(2237 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [styrrell]
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one has to apply recent uci interpretation of water bottle shapes ;) no arundel, etc...
styrrell
Jan 26, 12 21:12
Post #45 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [jeffp]
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Wouldn't matter for most of us, but what are the rules?
Styrrell
Tom A.
Jan 26, 12 21:12
Post #46 of 165
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Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [trail]
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trail wrote:
>Of course it's important. If carrying a bottle on an S5 has NO effect, but it has a huge effect on the other frames then you may be back to the 10-20W differences again.
True enough, but seems like a can of worms for testing. Cervelo has the S5 optimized for an Arundel Chrono and asked for special treatment. To test all bikes with bottles you'd have to go ask the other manufacturers which aero bottle they'd want their frames tested with (the Venge may have been designed with the Specialized bottle in mind), and pretty soon you might be testing with 2-4 different aero bottles, muddling the results even more.
I wouldn't have caved to Cervelo at all.
Who said anything about an Arundel bottle. Slap at least one round bottle on ALL of the bikes (like people actually ride them) and see how it goes...what's so hard about that?
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Tom A.
Jan 26, 12 21:14
Post #47 of 165
(2230 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [styrrell]
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styrrell wrote:
I'm interested in how Cav does this year. The Pinarellos have never looked particularly aero to me. He had a great 2011 and their seems to be some up and coming sprinters.
It'll also be interesting to see how Thor does as well...
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
AndrewM
Jan 26, 12 21:15
Post #48 of 165
(2226 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [Tom A.]
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Tom A. wrote:
Aralo wrote:
rickn wrote:
Has anyone with an ipad seen the new Tour issue?
It's not on the tour-qtr yet. It's just on the February issue of Tour print magazine which came out Tuesday. There were multiple ones which were very close:
The test method sounded pretty good so I'd say it's legit.
Well, something changed in the analysis of the results because the power bar-chart is slightly lower (within the error bars though) for the Felt AR0 tested previously (AR0 and AR1 are identical aerodynamically, right?) while the previous value for the S3 is lower than for the S5 even though it's pretty clear that S3 CdA curve isn't as good as the S5 above 5d of yaw.
The AR0 and AR1 CdA curves seem to match pretty well between the tests though...which then begs the question again of why the AR1 is shown to be slightly lower power than the AR0.
Isn't the S5 supposed to be more aero than the S3? Why does it require 5 more watts to maintain the same 45km/h?
In either case, I'm not all that interested in aero frames. I much prefer the regular round tubed frame. But then again, my form of racing is for GC/climbing races.
(This post was
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Tom A.
Jan 26, 12 21:39
Post #49 of 165
(2196 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [AndrewM]
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AndrewM wrote:
Isn't the S5 supposed to be more aero than the S3? Why does it require 5 more watts to maintain the same 45km/h?
Exactly. Here's the S3 vs. S5 plot from the S5 "white paper". ~90g of drag (~10W less to go the same speed) for the S5 vs. S3 according to Cervelo's testing. Oh yeah, do you notice how much better the DZ dummy "sails" as compared to the Tour dummy?
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
jeffp
Jan 26, 12 21:41
Post #50 of 165
(2195 views)
Re: Venge more aero than an s5? [styrrell]
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well folks are not really going to race with aerobottles, as it makes it more difficult to get feeds in a RR
some 10cm max depth or some such, I don't recall all the details right now
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The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
Won't budge the needle
