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Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.)
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Paulo sent me the complete paper, which you can download HERE. Let me be the first to say I find this paper very interesting. And the conclusions would definitely indicate that my previous beliefs were, in fact, wrong. I guess I'm off to do some heavy squats. However, let me remind everyone that strength still means the same thing it always did... ;)

Scand J Med Sci Sports. 2010 Oct;20 Suppl 2:39-47. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0838.2010.01197.x.
Effects of strength training on endurance capacity in top-level endurance athletes.
Aagaard P, Andersen JL.

Institute of Sports Science and Clinical Biomechanics, University of Southern Denmark, Odense, Denmark. paagaard@health.sdu.dk
Abstract
The effect of concurrent strength (S) and endurance (E) training on adaptive changes in aerobic capacity, endurance performance, maximal muscle strength and muscle morphology is equivocal. Some data suggest an attenuated cardiovascular and musculoskeletal response to combined E and S training, while other data show unimpaired or even superior adaptation compared with either training regime alone. However, the effect of concurrent S and E training only rarely has been examined in top-level endurance athletes. This review describes the effect of concurrent SE training on short-term and long-term endurance performance in endurance-trained subjects, ranging from moderately trained individuals to elite top-level athletes. It is concluded that strength training can lead to enhanced long-term (>30 min) and short-term (<15 min) endurance capacity both in well-trained individuals and highly trained top-level endurance athletes, especially with the use of high-volume, heavy-resistance strength training protocols. The enhancement in endurance capacity appears to involve training-induced increases in the proportion of type IIA muscle fibers as well as gains in maximal muscle strength (MVC) and rapid force characteristics (rate of force development), while likely also involving enhancements in neuromuscular function.


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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Dude...you are an admin...and you start THIS fight? ;-)

I shall order you a salad (with Baco's) to enjoy while we watch this unfold.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Damnit Chip beat me to the first post. I wasn't logged in... ANYWAY

I'll give it a read.
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So my whole thread yesterday asking this exact question has now been blown out of the water and I have to ask again..should I be doing wieghts on my legs to improve my bike? I guess I am just going to have to try and see what happens :)

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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i wouldn't be so quick to do an about face due to a single study that seems to be at odds with many previous ones =)


In Reply To:
So my whole thread yesterday asking this exact question has now been blown out of the water and I have to ask again..should I be doing wieghts on my legs to improve my bike? I guess I am just going to have to try and see what happens :)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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It's really not at odds with previous research.

The message is still the same, traditional weight training does not improve endurance performance.

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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I know...something inside me just tells me that it makes sense to build strength in my legs, arse etc (eg squats) as these are what I use for cycling... I know its different but the main groups are there. On the other hand my expreince level is very low and I am still quite new to this so I try to listen to the wise as much as I can. Are there any studies done by 1 day cycle racers? people who race 180 ish km in a day to win? not 3 week tours as its not the same. Im not trying to a Schleck I just want to do a 5:15 ish 180k and then be able to run!

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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Simple...then go out and ride your bike and run. I know that I am not a coach and that seems too simple. I have however had some good coach's including Eddie B at camps at OTC Springs years ago...we did many things - squats was not one of them. I am not sure if that would have changed if I was racing Keirin or not...but, in my many plans - be it from MultiSports.com and many others, squats was just not one of the things prescribed.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.

the muscles are the same yes, but the ENERGY SYSTEMS are entirely different. When you train your body to get stronger anaerobically, you are triggering completely different adaptations than the ones you trigger through aerobic work.

in fact some of those adaptations will be at odds with each other!

think of it this way, a small child, with a single hand, can put as much force on a pedal for a few reps as lance does with each pedal stroke in a 40k TT

it...is...an..aerobic....sport...damnit!!




In Reply To:
I know...something inside me just tells me that it makes sense to build strength in my legs, arse etc (eg squats) as these are what I use for cycling... I know its different but the main groups are there. On the other hand my expreince level is very low and I am still quite new to this so I try to listen to the wise as much as I can. Are there any studies done by 1 day cycle racers? people who race 180 ish km in a day to win? not 3 week tours as its not the same. Im not trying to a Schleck I just want to do a 5:15 ish 180k and then be able to run!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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"it...is...an..aerobic....sport...damnit!!"

Yes, it is.

And type IIA muscles fibers operate both anaerobically and aerobically, with a high density of mitochondria, large oxidative capacity, good capillary feeding, and a major storage fuel of glycogen.

Their motor nerves are smaller than the faster more explosive muscle fibers, and the type IIa's have a longer time to fatigue.

Could come in handy in an "aerobic" sport...

Ben Greenfield

Ben Greenfield

Nutrition & Human Performance Advice
http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's really not at odds with previous research.

The message is still the same, traditional weight training does not improve endurance performance.


Maybe not, but check out Fig 2 and what it does for HR and Lactate....whoa!


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [pacificfit] [ In reply to ]
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But aren't IIA still considered a 'fast twitch' flavor of muscle fiber?


"Triathlon?!? I play a real sport, I don't want to be the best at exercising." ~Kenny Powers
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
just because you want it to be true doesn't mean it is.

the muscles are the same yes, but the ENERGY SYSTEMS are entirely different. When you train your body to get stronger anaerobically, you are triggering completely different adaptations than the ones you trigger through aerobic work.

in fact some of those adaptations will be at odds with each other!

think of it this way, a small child, with a single hand, can put as much force on a pedal for a few reps as lance does with each pedal stroke in a 40k TT

it...is...an..aerobic....sport...damnit!!


Perhaps, but my lungs don't hurt and I'm not breathing hard from my race on Sunday. On the other hands, my legs are sore as hell.
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Im really quite tempted to just try it and see what happens. Spend the winter mixing turbo sessions and heavy lifting (well in my case we could just call it lifting) and see how I do in the spring when I get back on my bike. I know from this year that my avg pace over a flat 180k course is between 31kph and 34kph, I would like to that to be 36 to 38 kph. Im guessing that it also depends on the individual, some people are built more for power and some for endurance (or am I wrong about that too? im not sure about much anymore).

If anyone wants to use me as a test case and pay me to train for the next year please feel free ;)

http://longwaytogo-ironman.blogspot.com/
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar,
You mean you don't follow Mike Boyle? 1 leg squats have been all the rage for some time now...

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
Last edited by: Mike Ricci: Sep 30, 10 4:42
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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And you know what else?

Squats cure cancer...
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/...dom_of_Mark_Rippetoe
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [johanandbex] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Im really quite tempted to just try it and see what happens. Spend the winter mixing turbo sessions and heavy lifting (well in my case we could just call it lifting) and see how I do in the spring when I get back on my bike. I know from this year that my avg pace over a flat 180k course is between 31kph and 34kph, I would like to that to be 36 to 38 kph. Im guessing that it also depends on the individual, some people are built more for power and some for endurance (or am I wrong about that too? im not sure about much anymore).

If anyone wants to use me as a test case and pay me to train for the next year please feel free ;)


Here's my $0.02, which is about all you are likely to get paid to do this ;-)

You claim to be time-constrained (not sure who in the world isn't, but anyway) - and you want to improve your biking in a limited amount of training time.
There is only ONE thing you should be doing - BIKING.

IF you are training to be a TRACK SPRINTER, then it may indeed make some sense to do some heavy lifting.
Assuming you are a triathlete (you're posting here instead of JuiceHeads.com), then you'll get minimal to zero benefit to lifing.
SBR baby. Hold the S. :)


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
It's really not at odds with previous research.

The message is still the same, traditional weight training does not improve endurance performance.


Not arguing either side here, but I don't recall the word "traditional" showing up in a lot of posts regarding this subject. I'm not playing semantic games here, but is this not massaging the message a bit post argument?
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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PS - when I first read the subject line, I thought this had to do w/ the toilet. Wasn't really sure what that had to do w/ ST... ;-)


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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How strength training impacts someone like Paulo or Jordan is one thing but for a 53 YO I can say with conviction that it does play a positive role.

I had some hip flexor issues develop after a bike accident (chain snapped and flew into spokes--ouch). My body adapted to a small Hamstring tear by shutting down my flexors. Lots of imbalances ensued.

10 weeks of 3X PT required to fix problem. PT involved lots of functional movements with weights--especially targeted at my core region. Many, many squats and lunges were involved.

I was incredibly weak at these in the beginning but steadily progressed as the sessions wore on. I now feel much stronger and more balanced and less prone to all the niggly injuries I usually get as part of IM training (especially my lower back and ITB).

It's still too early to tell about long-term impact, but after Kona, I plan to continue a version of this regime. I do believe that it will have the effect of reducing training impacting injuries which should contribute to better fitness. So I think this type of training does have a role as you get older in helping you maintain the ability to do heavy, IM level training...just my 2 cents worth.



Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
Last edited by: rcmioga: Sep 30, 10 4:48
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Rehab is a different discussion really.

Good luck though, and hope it works well for you.
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Oh sweet God... and here I thought I was going to be bored at work this week... Slowtwitch Delivers entertainment all week!

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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I'm kind of the same. I've been squatting for years (love it) and although it'd be foolish to say it made me a better bicyclist, I can without hesitation say that my knees and hips feel stronger and I can ride for longer without knee issues.

So, maybe it's good as a form of preventative PT. I know that during the summer I slack off on my weights and by fall my knees are usually angry at me for it... a few weeks back into it this fall and my knees are feeling great.

--
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful."
-Anton LaVey
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
i wouldn't be so quick to do an about face due to a single study that seems to be at odds with many previous ones =)

My thoughts exactly. This study is the start of something, not the end of it.
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Re: Maybe We Should Be Squatting (New Paper. VERY Interesting.) [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Now we know why denmark is producing so many good cyclists, despite that it is such a small country and that they have the most shitty weather of europe. I am going to the gym tonight to incorporate the findings of this review in my training program. I think especially this is very interesting:

Taken together, the available data suggest that a high muscle loading intensity (8595% 1RM) and/or a large volume of strength training need to be performed before a benefit on long-term endurance performance can be achieved.

and

Experimental data demonstrate that strength training can lead to enhanced long-term (430 min) and short-term (o15 min) endurance capacity both in well-trained individuals and highly trained top-level endurance athletes, especially (but not exclusively) when high-volume, heavy-resistance strength training protocols are applied.


The top right graph in figure 2 totally convinces me to go do some strength endurance training mixture. It suggests that with only endurance training you need more oxygen/kg for the same power! Very bad to cycle only.
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