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Say it ain't so, Tyler
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JasoninHalifax
Jul 26, 04 5:28
Post #1 of 243
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Say it ain't so, Tyler
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Former US Postal doctor speaks out
Prentice Steffen, a team doctor with the US Postal team in 1997, has alleged that he was sacked by the team that year for refusing to supply drugs to some of the riders. In comments made to
AFP
, Steffen said, "It was out of the question to carry out practices of this kind. But, after of my adamant refusal, I was simply thanked a few months later."
Dr. Steffen left the team before Lance Armstrong arrived in 1998. He explained that "at that time, we were a small team with average ambitions. Everyone was clean. But one day, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton came to ask me whether I could supply them with illegal products. I got the impression that they were speaking for everyone and that they had come to test the waters...To get to the top level, the team leaders were convinced that only doping would allow the team to obtain good results. From there, I understood that the whole mentality was changing."
I hope this is not true, as I have the utmost respect for TH.
____________________________________
"I'm a dirty girl" - Katy
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 5:35
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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Man...that's some revealing dialogue from the team doctor.
gtingley
Jul 26, 04 5:36
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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I just read the Cyclingnews story as well
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...004/jul04/jul26news2
At least this one does not attack Armstrong directly, however now Tyler will have to respond
Why did the doctor wait 7 years to speak out, the same day LA wins 6 Tours? Seems like sour grapes
Gary Tingley, M.S., USA Cycling Level 2 / Certified Power-based Training Coach
http://garytingley.com
| Wattage training for Road, Criterium, Time Trial
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 5:42
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Gary Tingley]
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Highly doubt it's sour grapes.
Chris_G
Jul 26, 04 5:49
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Gary Tingley]
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"Why did the doctor wait 7 years to speak out, the same day LA wins 6 Tours? Seems like sour grapes "
EXACTLY! What a stunning act of moral courage; keep quiet for seven years and then jump on the band wagon when you see your chance to get some headlines.
Chris
JasoninHalifax
Jul 26, 04 5:53
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Gary Tingley]
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It could just be sour grapes, but if it is, why wait 7 years to say this? It could be that he is telling the truth, but has waited for so long to say something because of the code of silence that seems to be crumbling these days.
I "hope" it is just sour grapes, and I hope that TH is clean. Who knows?
Just that with the allegations surrounding Lance and his associates, and now this, well, you get the idea.
____________________________________
"I'm a dirty girl" - Katy
JasoninHalifax
Jul 26, 04 5:54
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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It would have been headlines 7 years ago as much as today.
____________________________________
"I'm a dirty girl" - Katy
Chris_G
Jul 26, 04 5:54
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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Highly doubt it's sour grapes.
Then why wait 7 years? Did it take him that long to work up the courage? Or maybe he had to sell the rights to the story before he went public. It might not be sour grapes, but it sure lacks credibility.
Chris
weiwentg
Jul 26, 04 6:29
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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probably the whole code of silence issue.
I hope Tyler's not guilty, too, but...
Casey
Jul 26, 04 8:39
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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elund
Jul 26, 04 8:54
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Gary Tingley]
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Sour Grapes are Performance Enhancing Drugs?
efernand
Jul 26, 04 8:57
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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Even if it isn't jealousy, he still isn't saying, "I procured EPO, and personally injected it into Tyler's and others' arms." Therefore is still isn't any way near 'proof' of doping.
jhc
Jul 26, 04 9:29
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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It would have been headlines 7 years ago as much as today.
No it wouldn't. Without the Lance-cancer-TdF story nobody would care about the USPS team or if they doped.
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
5280
Jul 26, 04 9:37
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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Even if you are right and they are all on drugs, what I am SO tired of are all these people who come out and make accusations from long ago with no proof. This guy can't produce an ounce of proof to back up his statements. If you can't come to the table with some proof then you should shut your mouth. So far if we believe all these people then all we really know is who was doping 5 years ago. Who cares?
It is interesting that no one can ever prove there story and it is always these mysterious conversation that happened way back when. If the code of silence is breaking down then I want a teamate or coach to make an accusation about what is happening right now.
It seems to me there is more to gain for the people saying these things than there is for them to lose.
drfunk000
Jul 26, 04 9:58
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [5280]
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Where there's smoke there's fire. Judging by his work history he is a respected doc.
Prime Alliance Team Physician, June 2002 - 2003
Mercury Team Physician, 1998-2002
USA Cycling, Medical Director, 1997 & 1998
Summer Olympics Cycling Venue Physician, 1996
USPS Pro Cycling Team Physician, 1993-1996
Tour Du Pont Physician, 1991-1993
Spago-Rossin Cycling Team, 1992
Coors Light Racing Team Physician, 1991
US Naitonal Teams Senior Physician, 1988-1990
Olympic Trials Staff Physician, 1988
U.S. & Canadian National Teams, Senior World Championships, 1986
http://www.teamhealthnet.com/...prenticesteffen.html
Chris_G
Jul 26, 04 10:15
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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You're misreading what I'm saying. I'm not arguing about doping. I think it goes on. Personally, I don't think Lance dopes....but that's another thread.:)
My point was, first, the timing of all these "announcements". These individuals give up a lot of credibility by timing their announcements to garner them the most press coverage. Second, you say I (we) am (are) in denial, but I simply don't see any evidence. Okay, you have one witness (who I would say is a co-conspirator, if there is a conspiricy) who says Tyler talked to him about doping. There is no other evidence of any kind to implicate Tyler Hamilton in any kind of doping. I mean the guy barely has a couple good races a year (good=not hurt in a crash). J
I have never denied that doping happens. All I have ever asked for is that before you determine that someone is guilty, you have some proof. Millar confessed…that’s pretty good proof in my book. Others have tested positive…again I call that proof. What I don’t consider proof or even evidence of a problem is unsupported comments from a single person related to an incident that happened almost a decade ago. I won’t even hold you to the ‘reasonable doubt’ standard, just give me any solid, physical evidence of doping before making accusations.
Chris
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 10:19
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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A team doctor is pretty good evidence.
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 10:34
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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You guys who assume everyone is on something are as misled and shortsighted as anyone who thinks doping doesn't happen. In the U.S. a doctor saying someone asked him about something with no actual prrof of such conversation is called hear-say(sp) and it is not evidence. In fact it is not even allowed in a court of law. Everyone knows doping is happening, but that doesn't mean that every accusation is true or that every cyclist is on something anymore than every single baseball player is on steroid or every single track athlete is on THG.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
efernand
Jul 26, 04 10:38
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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A team doctor who says he administered doping products would be good testimony. If he had documentation of procuring doping products it would help.
If a rider asks the doctor, "Does EPO work?" Does that mean he's a doper? Noper.
Even if the conversation happened as he says, it certainly isn't evidence of doping.
Chris_G
Jul 26, 04 10:39
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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A team doctor is pretty good evidence.
Evidence of what? That he and Tyler had a conversation about doping? Maybe he misunderstood the conversation, maybe his memory isn't perfect after 7 years, maybe he has an agenda aside from setting the truth free...maybe....maybe
Ask any lawyer whether he'd rather have eye-witness testimony or physical evidence.
All you have is proof that this doctor SAYS Tyler came to him and they discussed doping. He further CLAIMS that he was fired for refusing to play along with the doping.
Perhaps...the question of doping came up and he was willing to supply the drugs, and he was fired for that reason, and how he's playing CYA and grab some headlines at the same time.
I'm not in denial about the doping problem, but this sort of thing just makes the whole situation more murky. It was interesting reading the comments, but they are proof of nothing.
Come back when you can show me a box of EPO or a positive drug test.
Chris
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 10:46
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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The more and more people keep coming forward the more suspicious these accusations become. It just isn't one person coming forward...It's a number of people who keep coming forward. I unfortunately see another incident like the one in 1998 coming to fruition.
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 10:50
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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The biggest problem I have with the "number of people" making accusations is that it seems that all of them have a beef. Almost all of them claim to have been fired for not playing ball, which may be true, but it has to make you at least consider that they are covering their own butts or getting back at their former employers for some percieved slight.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 10:58
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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What beef would the team doctor have?
Rusty TX
Jul 26, 04 11:01
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [drfunk000]
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I didn't think USPS was a Pro team in those years (93-96). Maybe in 96. The USPS team I thought formed from the old Subaru-Mongomery Montgomery/Bell and from the Motorola teams. I am probably wrong...
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 11:06
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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I believe the team doctor said he was fired for not giving doping agents to the team. If he was indeed fired, he might have some bad feelings about that. Here's a for instance. What if the doctor was actually fired for offering or trying to push doping agents on the team and thought his name might come out in the current investigations. To get ahead of this, he might come out and say that the riders approached him, and he refused, and he was fired for it. That way he gets his name on the right side of this from the start. I don't know if that's what happened, but it is certainly not outside of the realm of possibility.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Wolfwood
Jul 26, 04 11:10
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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Whatever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? They may be riders, but I assume everyone knew they were talking to a doctor. Shouldn't all such conversations be kept private?
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 11:14
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wolfwood]
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I suppose that would depend on whether or not the trial is in America or not. I'm not sure that doctor/patient confidentiality is law anywhere else. Maybe someone knows?
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:17
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Looking at this doctor's resume, I don't think he was hurting for work. It looks fairly impressive to me and appears that he's moved on from being fired from the USPS. While your theory certainly isn't beyond the realm of possibility, I just don't see why he would make a false accusation now at this time in his career. He's not selling a book nor a former cyclist trying to get some media time. In fact, I would think that he would be very careful about "lying" about anything given his resume and stature in the cycling community as a doctor.
Wolfwood
Jul 26, 04 11:17
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Maybe I don't know enough about medical ethics, but I thought it was generally accepted throughout the medical community that conversations between doctors and patient were to be kept private. Since they guy is a US doctor, I assume he would follow those guidelines.
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:18
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wolfwood]
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I'm not too familiar with the doctor/patient code in this regard.
klehner
Jul 26, 04 11:20
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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The more and more people keep coming forward the more suspicious these accusations become. It just isn't one person coming forward...It's a number of people who keep coming forward.
Sorta like all those former Administration officials who came forward to say that the Administration was fixated on invading Iraq from the beginning of 2001? Right, Brian? Did they change your mind?
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:23
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [klehner]
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Could you elaborate this point and let me know how it relates to the topic at hand?
Thanks
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 11:27
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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I agree with all that, and I don't have any reason in particular to think this doctor is lying. I just get suspiscious of accusations not backed up by documentation, and made many years later. i don't think they would hold up in any court of law, and according to a law student friend I have, that kind of testimony might not be allowed in a U.S. court.
I don't know the in's and out's of doctor/patient but my understanding is that in the U.S., you can break confidentiality out of concern for public welfare or the safety of other specific people.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:32
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Quite honestly I don't expect any documentation, syringes, or vials of stuff to be present from an incident that happened 7-8 yrs ago. So in this case I think it will remain one man's word against anothers. I agree that such testimony would not really hold up.
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 11:42
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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Look at what you are talking about here - this is not even an allegation of use, but an allegation that an inquiry was made. And he was not sacked, he was simply not rehired. What a silly thing to say that because 5 or 6 people have come forward with nothing more than circumstantial evidence at best, that the whole peloton must be doping. I should think that you could find 5 or 6 THOUSAND more who would say the opposite.
klehner
Jul 26, 04 11:44
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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In Reply To:
Could you elaborate this point and let me know how it relates to the topic at hand?
My pleasure. It's been my experience that, lacking physical evidence, the number of "witnesses" who present a particular slant on a story only stands to affect a person's belief in that particular slant if that person shares that belief. In this case, you believe that Armstrong dopes, so when you see multiple persons who purport to have inside knowledge come forth and insinuate that Armstrong dopes, it reinforces your belief. On the other hand, you don't believe that the Administration wanted to invade Iraq prior to 9/11, so even when multiple persons who purport to have inside knowledge come forth and insinuate that they did want to invade, it does not affect your belief.
Is that more clear?
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:47
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [klehner]
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Is that more clear?
Yes it is, thank you.
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 11:48
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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"this is not even an allegation of use, but an allegation that an inquiry was made."
This part is important. I was a college athlete and I'm sure that while I was sitting in a vat of ice in the training room I had discussions with our trainer about what the effects of various substances would be on guys in my position. That's not me asking for the trainer to go find me some steroids. That's just natural curiosity. If your kid asks you about the effects of Cocaine, does it mean they want you to go buy them some?
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
berndog
Jul 26, 04 11:52
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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//That's just natural curiosity. If your kid asks you about the effects of Cocaine, does it mean they want you to go buy them some? //
pretty sage words ;)
*****************************************
berndog
How did we all get sucked into this crazy sport anyway?!!
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 11:53
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [berndog]
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I'm a pretty sage guy.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 11:54
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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The doctor's statement reads:
Dr. Steffen left the team before Lance Armstrong arrived in 1998. He explained that "at that time, we were a small team with average ambitions. Everyone was clean. But one day, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton came to ask me whether I could supply them with illegal products. I got the impression that they were speaking for everyone and that they had come to test the waters...To get to the top level, the team leaders were convinced that only doping would allow the team to obtain good results. From there, I understood that the whole mentality was changing."
Like you said, it's not an accusation towards the team using drugs. It's just another piece of the puzzle that doesn't directly prove that people are using drugs but certainly points in the direction of cyclists using drugs.
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 11:59
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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"at that time, we were a small team with average ambitions. Everyone was clean. But one day, Marty Jemison and Tyler Hamilton came to ask me whether I could supply them with illegal products". Proof of what? I have asked my coach 100 times if she could get me some EPO. (To point out the obvious, it is a joke). Again, this is proof of nothing more than an inquiry.
" got the impression that they were speaking for everyone and that they had come to test the waters". Hearsay is what Lawyers would call that. And about the same amount of proof as everyone else has. An assumption, seven years later, no less is something to get him on? Oh, and by the way,
LANCE WAS NOT EVEN ON THE TEAM YET.
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 12:04
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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That's the thing...he wasn't on the team and the doctor was saying that the team was moving in another direction towards doping. Obviously the doctor wanted no part of it so he wasn't asked to be a member anymore. Then comes the legacy of the USPS under a new doctor and a new teammate....
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 12:11
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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Well, that could be the most ridiculous statement that I have ever read, no offense. You make two points, one that the doctor assumed b/c of a question that the whole team was getting ready to start doping. Should I really debate you here, or can we agree that this might not hold up?
Two, "Obviously the doctor wanted no part of it so he wasn't asked to be a member anymore" How is that obvious? Were you there? Do you think that maybe they found, say, a BETTER DOCTOR? Or is it that this guy has just been biding his time to wait until Lance's record victory (The good doctor is obviously a psychic as well, adding that to his talent list of the accurate powers of inference - being that Lance was not even on the team) to say something? How fantastic.
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 12:18
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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There's really nothing to debate here. The accusations keep mounting and at some point they will be too much to ignore.
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 12:19
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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Well then, I accuse you of doping. Three or four others, and we might have a controversy ourselves. Is this not absurd to you?
Robert
Jul 26, 04 12:20
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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How much smoke do we have to see before we realize something's burning?
I have no doubt drugs are being used in the peloton, including Le Tour.
I also have no doubt that Le Tour organizers and UCI are making only modest efforts to test for drugs. Sort of like the effort USATF makes. :)
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
jhendric
Jul 26, 04 12:42
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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$20 says lawsuits will be filed by Jemison and Hamilton by week's end.
Wolfwood
Jul 26, 04 12:47
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jhendric]
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Yeah, if he was the team doctor then Hamilton and Jemison were his patients. Anything discussed of a medical nature, including illegal drugs, I'm pretty falls under confidentiality. Maybe a doctor here can help clarify since I'm not an expert. But I assume if I ask my doctor for a drug, legal or not, that information would be protected. For example if I told my doctor I was interested in using marijuana, he wouldn't be able to tell the world that I asked that question.
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 13:06
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Robert]
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Modest being showing up at his door step to test him while his wife was going into labor and the other year round random tests not to mention the tests that start with the start of Le Tour and continue througout???? What is your definition of modest?
jhendric
Jul 26, 04 13:07
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wolfwood]
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Not only that, but the burden of proof rests on the doctor that Hamilton and Jemison actually said what he reported (I'm not suggesting TH or MJ did or didn't say anything, just that in order to defend a libel suit the doctor will need to be able to prove they said it). Naming-names seems pretty high risk.
Brian.
Jul 26, 04 13:10
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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Interesting article in the NY Times. Even tour organizers are frustrated with drugs in cycling.
http://www.nytimes.com/.../19vecsey.html?fta=y
Robert
Jul 26, 04 13:20
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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I don't mean the frequency of testing but the quality and extent of testing. Why did USATF miss so many athletes that another organization found positive tests for? This is a question of how hard one looks for drugs and how much money one is willing to spend to look for ALL the metabolites, ALL the masking agents, and ALL the latest drugs. It's an expensive race.
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Robert
Jul 26, 04 13:23
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Also, I could personally be on HGH, steroids, speed, ephedrine, 2000mgs of caffeine, EPO, etc. and no one would know or care at USAT. Age group athletes are probably the BIGGEST cheaters in terms of sheer numbers. At IMFL in '03 in the transition area it looked like a Mexican pharmacy.... Sheezh....
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
triyoshoes
Jul 26, 04 13:25
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No argument there, but USAT and UCI are different leagues. You can't compare them. It sounds to me like you want them/him to be guilty and are grabbing at straws.
What were they taking in transition and where can I get some? ;-)~
Robert
Jul 26, 04 13:35
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I don't want anyone to be guilty, particularly Tyler! I think Tyler is awesome. It would break my heart to know he was on drugs.
No telling what the drugs were on the floor at IMFL. Pills everywhere.
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
Casey
Jul 26, 04 13:39
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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JM
Jul 26, 04 14:22
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Just curious, I noticed you capitalized the first letter in "Cocaine," you...ah...aren't on a first name basis, are you?
(sense of humor test...this is only a test...)
I don't do cocaine, but I drink Beer. I asked my Dad alot of those kind of questions, and then I asked my brother, and found out he knew alot more.
"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 14:28
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No, but I'm glad to find we have a friend in common. Beer has always been there for me when I need Beer.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
ceitsab
Jul 26, 04 14:57
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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i think timing is great here to maximize the number of people that get the message he is trying to get across.
randy barnes the us world record holder in the shotput tested positive at a low point in the year and it was quickly forgotten about and swept under the table. he was throwing again the next season as if nothing happenned. if this information came out before the olympics it would have been taken more seriously and not just given a slap on the wrist.
WebSwim
Jul 26, 04 15:55
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--
There were a few accusations of drug use from other athletes but the response in Canada was always "they're just jealous because the fastest man in the world is not American" or "well where are the positive drug tests.
--
Same again in 1996, when Michelle Smith/de Bruin beat Janet Evans in the 400m Free in Atlanta. Americans were NOT happy.
TriBriGuy
Jul 26, 04 17:47
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"If the code of silence is breaking down then I want a teamate or coach to make an accusation about what is happening right now."
Well, here's a few names for you...Manzano, Simeoni, Gaumont...
But they've all been vilified by teammates, riders, and management alike.
This isn't to make a case one way or another, but it is somewhat telling that the common treatment for anyone daring to speak out takes the same track...
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
tridork
Jul 26, 04 17:52
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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I coming around to your side....
BUT!!!!!
How about some damned EVIDENCE!
Anything, a needle in his room, car, back pocket whatever. How about a positive test for anything? How about anyone who says something like "I gave LA a shot of XXXX" or " I saw him taking YYYY"
Hasn't happened yet has it? SOOOOOO, until there IS some evidence, rather than just accusations by arguably questionable sources, I prefer to consider him (and others in the same situation) to be innocent until PROVEN guilty. Many have tried and none have succeeded in producing evidence or a conviction (in or out of court).
Now we should all go out for a group ride and enjoy the lovely weather and each others comapny. Who wants to ride to the Cafe with me on Sunday? (Oh yeah, I live in Auckland NZ, might be a bit of a long warmup ride for some of you to meet me by this sunday :-)
TriDork
"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
fulla
Jul 26, 04 19:48
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if you tell a dr you are about to commit a crime they can break confidentiality. so if procuring epo was a crime, or whatever they asked for, the dr is entitled to speak out, if they had asked if they could get some.
pretty sure thats the law in the usa. but then im not a lawyer there.....
slowguy
Jul 26, 04 19:51
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I don't think EPO is illegal is it? Just banned by UCI. Als, I googled doctor/patient confidentiality, and it seems that here in the U.S. you can break it in the interest of the public safety or the safety of a specific person. I think that means the doctor can choose to break confidentiality then, but cannot be compelled to break it, but I'm not sure.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
tridork
Jul 26, 04 19:52
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You replied to my follow up post, but you didn't say if you want to come riding on sunday :-)
TriDork
"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
fulla
Jul 26, 04 20:01
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im doing taupo 1/2 marathon sunday sorry ;).
id have a good excuse if needles were ever found in my room. im diabetic.
kaclassen
Jul 26, 04 20:31
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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"I'm not arguing about doping. I think it goes on. Personally, I don't think Lance dopes."
That statement is unbelievable. So you think those guy's (pro cyclist's) are doping but Lance is just so naturally gifted that he makes them all look stupid when he shows up. None of those guys ride 6 hrs a day in the rain, Lance is the only one.
Wolfwood
Jul 26, 04 21:08
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Actually there are a lot of guys that train as hard as Lance but don't have the natural talent. It's the guys at the top that are constantly tested, now even their blood is taken. But it's the domestiques who are hanging on for dear life that are most likely to dope. The doping could be the difference between staying on the team and being unemployed so the pressure to do so is greater and the likelihood of being tested is less.
tridork
Jul 26, 04 21:48
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [fulla]
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Are you getting yourself set up for the "Erin Baker Award" for all four Taupo events?
1/2 Marathon,
1/2 IM
Cross Taupo Swim
IMNZ
From memory I think if you finish those 4 events, you're IN!
I will be simply draggin' my butt around Auckland on a bike. That way I can stop for a coffee without losing time!!
TriDork
"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
kaclassen
Jul 26, 04 21:49
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I tell you what. I personally knew Lance back when he was racing triathlon and he was not and is not so naturally gifted that he absolutely destroys everybody. It is foolish to think that the only people that take drugs are the guys barely hanging on. We are talking about 6 and 7 figure incomes here guys, there is plenty incentive for the top guys to be taking drugs and they are. As far as your sentence "It's the guys at the top that are constantly tested, now even their blood is taken." Again big money big doctors and usually not dumb enough to get caught. Most of these drugs are taken well before the tour and would not come up in a blood test anyway. Just take THG, it was made specifically to not be detected, it only got out because of somebody blowing the whistle. You think that there aren't a bunch more of those kind of drugs that nobody knows about? Sure there are, and when there are many millions of dollars riding on the results of the tour you can bet the top guys are researching them. I cheer for Lance and I enjoy watching him win but it is very naive to think that he is just naturally better than everyone else. Especially when these guys are getting caught(David Millar, Richard Virenque, Frank Vandenbrouke.......) and they don't even come close to Lance.
Wolfwood
Jul 26, 04 22:00
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kaclassen]
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Maybe my recollection was bad, but when Lance was racing tris he was blowing away everyone in his age group. Maybe he wasn't blowing everyone away but he was only a teenager. I raced against Hincapie while he was a junior and Tyler in college and they were both great riders. I never expected them to be as good as they are but they were still young.
kjsmitty
Jul 26, 04 22:07
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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With a name like Prentice Steffen....I wonder why he was fired. Most likly graduated in the low end of his medical school's class and was French. Sounds like a real quack to me.
Smitty
kaclassen
Jul 26, 04 22:25
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wolfwood]
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I went 1:46 for an olympic distance tri in Sacramento in 1990 the day before I turned 18. I beat Greg Welch, Miles Stewart, and a handful of other great triathletes. So you could probably say I was and am naturally gifted. I posted almost identical #'s in terms of wattage and time on a velodyne bike at a cardioligist's office as Steve Hegg. Eddie B. was watching and was quite impressed. Blah blah blah enough blowing my own horn. I am just saying there are a lot of gifted talented athletes in the world that work very hard. I struggle every year to barely make a living in the sport of triathlon (I am not complaining, I love what I do) but I am not going to die in my sleep from some heart problem like the 6-7 young pro cyclist's have in the last few years.
ceitsab
Jul 26, 04 23:12
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kaclassen]
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i think you are right on the money. it's nice to see a person who loves following the sport but doesn't do it with their head in the sand.
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 5:33
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ceitsab wrote:
"it's nice to see a person who loves following the sport but doesn't do it with their head in the sand."
Wolfwood wrote:
"I am just saying there are a lot of gifted talented athletes in the world that work very hard."
Why exactly does not believing that every single athlete in the sport we love is doping and on drugs qualify as having our heads in the sand? Not eveyone is a cynical bastard. Wolfwood is right to say that a lot of naturally gifted athletes work very hard, so why can't you believe that Lance does too? Just because he's better than everyone? What kind of argument is that? The best athlete in every sport must be taking something to get him there? Just because your natural talent (which you laid out very nicely for us by the way) and hard work didn't take you as far as someone else is no reason to be bitter about it. Maybe he just had more natural talent than you. Or maybe he works harder. Or maybe he works smarter. Or maybe his heart muscle is 1 and 1/3 times the size of yours. Or maybe his heart (figuratively) is 2 times as big as yours. Who knows, but to assume that because he wins, he must be on something is really weak. Oh, and by the way, in most sports, it is not the superstars that begin doping, it's the guys who are trying to keep up with the superstars.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
kaclassen
Jul 27, 04 7:08
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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I am not bitter about it. I love what I do and how I do it. I will most likely be around for a long happy life with my wife and child.
slowguy wrote:
"Oh, and by the way, in most sports, it is not the superstars that begin doping, it's the guys who are trying to keep up with the supestars."
How do you know that? It has been stated on this forum that the guys barely making it are the ones taking drugs. What do they really have to gain. They are the ones that make $80k a year if they are lucky. Then we are talking about guys with million dollar contracts. Which of those have more incentive to use drugs.
....
Jul 27, 04 7:10
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kjsmitty]
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smitty ain't too witty...
always smart comments...get over it dude.
5280
Jul 27, 04 7:12
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I am not fluent in the details of the cycling world doping saga, but my problem remains that there are so many accusations but no proof. It seems to me that if it were as wide spread as some say it is then it would be easy (at least possible) to catch someone in a sting. It seems like some people believe that all most all riders or at least top riders are doping. If that is the case then buying someone off for a tip on a shipment or something tangible seems very doable.
I can see it now on next years OLN coverage of TDF. (inner circle Bad Boys in the background) "OLN's TDF coverage is filmed on location with the men and doctors of the peloton all riders are innocent until proven guilty or at least accused of doping in a book."
Seriously, if any of them are doping, I hope they get caught and I want cycling (or any sport) to be based on performance and effort not drugs.
Brian.
Jul 27, 04 7:20
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It's a shame that most of the pro riders in cycling are doping. I don't know how these guys are able to justify the damge that these drugs do to the body for fame and fortune. I guess it's the sign of the times.
Chris_G
Jul 27, 04 7:24
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kaclassen]
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That statement is unbelievable. So you think those guy's (pro cyclist's) are doping but Lance is just so naturally gifted that he makes them all look stupid when he shows up. None of those guys ride 6 hrs a day in the rain, Lance is the only one.
That's not even close to what I said. No, every pro cyclist doesn’t dope, but yes I think some do. I think the problem is probably worst among those guys who are good, but not quite good enough. They can just feel those wins slipping through their fingers...and finally decide to do whatever it takes.
And yes, I think Lance happens to be so naturally gifted (and works so much harder) that he makes everyone look stupid. No one questions that Merckx (or Hinault, or Indurain) was incredibly physically gifted, but 25 years later, it's inconceivable that anyone else could be. I think Jan Ullrich is equally gifted, but he spends his off-season eating doughnuts instead of riding the Alps.
And just because someone else rides just as much as Lance doesn’t mean a damn thing. If I train as much as Peter Reid am I going to be able to do 8:20 in Hawaii? Of course not, because he has a superhuman physiology and well…I don’t.
My point was that while I’m sure doping does happen, I don’t believe every guy in the peleton rides around with needles sticking out of their legs, and I don’t believe there is some huge UCI conspiracy to cover up drug use by top riders.
Chris
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 7:24
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kaclassen]
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kaclassen wrote:
"How do you know that? It has been stated on this forum that the guys barely making it are the ones taking drugs. What do they really have to gain. They are the ones that make $80k a year if they are lucky"
I'm mostly going by what I've read and seen regarding drugs in football, baseball, etc,...The ones with incentive are the ones who won't have a job if they can't keep up. The superstars are going to be stars regardless. The guys clawing their way onto teams have much more at stake. I know the $'s seem like a bigger motivation at the top levels, but I think those guys are doing it for glory and maybe ego of being the best in the world. The money is more important to those who need it to keep their electricity turned on.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
....
Jul 27, 04 7:27
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the problem seems to be that it is so established in the peloton and they get so good at cheating the system that it's really really hard to prove anything at all.
a good example is Virenque. Ejected from the Tour 98 with the Festina team, he was the last to admit, but French justice, and the UCI couldn't do anything before he admitted, because it was his word against Willy Voet. Only pressures pushed him to admit, but he was free to ride for an other 2 years before being suspended.
kaclassen
Jul 27, 04 7:29
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I have to go train now. I can see how people get caught up in these forums.
brentl
Jul 27, 04 7:32
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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kerry, thanks for your comments. nice to see someone else who doesn't have their head in the sand (or somewhere else). the naivete around here can be shocking.
and why do some of you insist that it is drugs
or
hard work. it's the drugs that allow you to work harder. i suppose a blood booster like epo could have some effect without the associated work, but it would also allow you to train harder. any of the anabolic agents are effective because you can work harder and recover more quickly.
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 7:34
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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"It's a shame that most of the pro riders in cycling are doping."
I don't know if this is true or not, but what kills me is that you don't know either and yet you, and people with similar opinions, make these declarative statements without any proof. Most cyclists dope. Show me some numbers and some documentation.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Jul 27, 04 7:35
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [brentl]
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yep...
I can say one thing. In 1995, I had bad allergy problems during a spring and was given a corticoid shot as I wasn't racing before 3 months.
I was amazed. I could push really really hard on the bike with no pain at all...and that's just one tiny detail in the long med. box of pro athletes...
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 7:39
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brentl wrote:
"nice to see someone else who doesn't have their head in the sand (or somewhere else). the naivete around here can be shocking."
Thanks for helping us naive folks out. I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you has their head up their "sand".
The cynicism around here can be shocking.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
....
Jul 27, 04 7:39
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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I can give you the numbers in cat 1 when I raced...
I'd say a good 80 to 90% uses something.
I have seen guys making their market just before a race "anyone has amphets left?" guys with belgium mix in a toothbrush box taped to the frame, making the injection 90' before the finish, guys popping ephedrine in front of everyone during races, at an alarming rate, training camps with more stuff than you would see in a pharmacy, corticoid, testosterone, and even EPO, all this put in bags without keeping the temperature down...
why would this change at the upper level?
Casey
Jul 27, 04 7:40
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kjsmitty]
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5280
Jul 27, 04 7:44
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So maybe they need a new system? They know the drugs they are taking right? I think that it should not be that hard to devise a test to detect it then?
I should probably know this but how long does this stuff stay in the system and detectable? Why don't they take blood from every rider before certain races or stages of a race like TDF? Just pick certain races and test ALL of them. If you did this regularly it would stop it, at least in the shor run or am I making this to easy and simplified?
I just wonder if it is the overall sport that doesn't care, despite what they say, and wants it to continue?
smartasscoach
Jul 27, 04 7:46
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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He's 100% american, I mean, in his personal biography he mentions his dogs before his son... :-)
-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
brentl
Jul 27, 04 7:47
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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In Reply To:
The cynicism around here can be shocking.
not cynicism - realism.
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 7:54
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that people dope and take all kinds of stupid stuff. However, I also know that in a lot of sports the worst offenders are at the lower levels as they try to make it to the upper levels. I'm not sure how anyone could get away with injecting themselves during the race in the Tour with the TV coverage, but I suppose anything is possible. Francois, did you use banned substances? I assume not, and I guess that if you didn't, there's plenty of others who don't as well. I would guess that hese things change at the upper levels because of a couple things.
1. There is more talent at the highest levels and the need to artificially aid oneself is less.
2. Their is more attempt to control at the upper levels.
3. Athletes at the upper levels have access to more legal training aids and coaching techniques.
4. Athletes have more to lose if caught at the upper levels.
Certainly these things won't stop everyone, and there may indeed be a majority of high level cyclists using, but anecdotal evidence is not enough for me to convict. Look, I'm nowhere near fast enough to be near anyone who would try to use something banned. My body is still geared towards the fast twitch hell I put it through doing gymnastics for 15 years. I'm sure you have a different perspective having raced, but not having that experience, I choose to assume the best until proof is produced. I do not dismiss the possibility that Lance is on every chemical known to man, or that every cyclist out there is on something banned, but in the absence of proof, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
....
Jul 27, 04 8:10
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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I was given corticoid once in the off season, for very serious allergy problems (I mentioned that in an other post). I didn't feel the need to take something because I still had good results without that and above all, I had something else in my life (studies etc.)
Wants2rideFast
Jul 27, 04 8:23
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triiowa]
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[reply][b]"Why did the doctor wait 7 years to speak out, the same day LA wins 6 Tours? Seems like sour grapes "
[/b]
EXACTLY! What a stunning act of moral courage; keep quiet for seven years and then jump on the band wagon when you see your chance to get some headlines.
Chris[/reply]
triiowa,
If you knew that Prentice Steffen was putting the finishing touches on his new book about drugs in the peleton, would it put his comments into a new light?
Just like the two "great" investigative reporters (hacks) that wrote the book smearing Lance with innuendo but no facts. In reality, the facts would appear to contradict the two reporters.
Ben Cline
Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
Wolfwood
Jul 27, 04 8:26
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If he's writing a book then I'm doubting the motives even more.
Wants2rideFast
Jul 27, 04 8:32
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [drfunk000]
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[reply]Where there's smoke there's fire. Judging by his work history he is a respected doc.
Prime Alliance Team Physician, June 2002 - 2003
Mercury Team Physician, 1998-2002
USA Cycling, Medical Director, 1997 & 1998
Summer Olympics Cycling Venue Physician, 1996
USPS Pro Cycling Team Physician, 1993-1996
Tour Du Pont Physician, 1991-1993
Spago-Rossin Cycling Team, 1992
Coors Light Racing Team Physician, 1991
US Naitonal Teams Senior Physician, 1988-1990
Olympic Trials Staff Physician, 1988
U.S. & Canadian National Teams, Senior World Championships, 1986
[url "http://www.teamhealthnet.com/team/prenticesteffen.html"]http://www.teamhealthnet.com/team/prenticesteffen.html[/url][/reply]
drfunk000,
It was reported he claimed to be a team physician for the US Postal team in 1997. That position seems to be clearly missing from the resumé you posted. An oversight?
As medical director (the head doctor) for USA Cycling for 1997 and 1998, how much time would he have had to be team physician for US Postal?
Ben Cline
Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
trijs
Jul 27, 04 8:33
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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I have heard from a somewhat reliable source that the doping is often done in the early months of the year as the riders are preparing for the race season ahead. Often they train in distant locales for several weeks where they can train untested while they have detectible levels in their system. Once it is time for the season they have built up their strength and are clean.
Jim
Wants2rideFast
Jul 27, 04 8:43
Post #100 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wolfwood]
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[reply]Whatever happened to doctor/patient confidentiality? They may be riders, but I assume everyone knew they were talking to a doctor. Shouldn't all such conversations be kept private?[/reply]
Wolfwood,
Very good! In most states this could result in a doctor's license to practice medicine being revoked. I would be surprised if he was not taken to task for this.
As team physician, they were his patients during his professed tenure as team physician.
This is a clear violation of his medical oath and code of ethics! Then again, perhaps his license to practice medicine is already suspended/revoked and he feels no longer bound by these professional oaths and ethics.
Ben Cline
Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
(This post was
edited
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Wants2rideFast
Jul 27, 04 9:00
Post #101 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [triyoshoes]
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[reply]Well then, I accuse you of doping. Three or four others, and we might have a controversy ourselves. Is this not absurd to you?[/reply]
triyoshoes,
Exactly! Brian286 seems obsessed with doping, US Postal and Armstrong's alledged drug use. Clearly he would not be so interested unless he was using illegal drugs himself.
I understand from reading about the side affects of steroid use, that there can be personality and judgment changes in frequent users. Paranoia too.
Ooops, gotta go. The little green men are coming again.
Ben Cline
Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
Wants2rideFast
Jul 27, 04 9:10
Post #102 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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[reply]No, but I'm glad to find we have a friend in common. Beer has always been there for me when I need Beer.[/reply]
slowguy,
Another good point. Let's see, most people who use illegal drugs have drank beer. Most people who use/have used/abuse heroin have drank beer.
Therefore, drinking beer leads to the use of illegal drugs and heroin, doesn't it. Therefore you are probably an illegal drug user or on heroin!
See how easy it is to jump to conclusions with "solid" research/evidence.
Ben Cline
Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.
Jeff7
Jul 27, 04 9:54
Post #103 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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This is from Tyler's website:
The claim that, I along with another teammate, approached a team doctor and asked him questions about doping products back in 1996 is absolutely false. I swear on my wife’s life and the grave of my dog that I never asked that man about anything of the sort. If you know anything about me, you know this is as emphatic as I can be. I'm truly saddened to have to respond publicly to such an accusation.
jackattack
Jul 27, 04 10:16
Post #104 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Jeff7]
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There is an interesting article on velonews about an interview with Millar:
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/6682.0.html
Based on his statements, it would seem to me that doping is indeed present, but maybe not as widely accepted as one might think given his remorse.
---------------------------------------------------------
"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."
....
Jul 27, 04 10:22
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [trijs]
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from what I have seen, it's pretty much year round provided you have the money to affort the undetectable things.
but your comments make sense assuming someone can only afford the cheaper stuff.
I have seen the dumbest guys ever in France though...getting forbidden stuff, and having it reimburse by the Social Security and talking about that in the bunch...
When I realized that everyone was talking more about the new stuff to use, that's when I figured it's time to leave this sport...
sure Tom D has some stories on that too.
jhc
Jul 27, 04 10:27
Post #106 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Jeff7]
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So Dr. Steffen has made these allegations twice before....
http://www.velonews.com/...articles/1098.0.html
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Brian.
Jul 27, 04 10:40
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jhc]
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The mounting problems of drugs in this sport are almost too much for the riders to bear. Hopefully the UCI can get tougher about testing but it seems to be a losing battle. They always seem to be one step ahead of the tests.
TriBriGuy
Jul 27, 04 11:56
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Well, Barry Bonds is widely acknowledged as one of the best players ever to play baseball, and yet we find his name deeply entrenched in the BALCO case. In fact, ALL of the names that have come out are fairly big stars in the game...and in T&F as well...Montgomery, Jones, et al.
Nobody in pro sports is immune to the lure of illicit performance enhancements. They can all find reasons, if they so choose, to take drugs. I don't think that means they all do, though, by any stretch of the imagination. I think most athletes are trying to do it cleanly. Most, if not all, who DO dope would probably rather not do it. But some will fall. Others won't. The true shame in all of these doping cases across sports as a whole, is that those who do dope and get caught are tarnishing the names of ALL athletes. As has been said here a thousand times...without a positive test...who really knows who is and who isn't doping.
David Millar is one guy who's fallen who I think is taking the best tack. He's talking about himself, his reasons for doping, and his thought processes that took him to that level. He isn't whining about how everyone is probably doing it, even if he thinks that is true. He's talking about himself. He seems truly disgusted with himself and ready to be accountable for his actions. Lets hope that doesn't change, especially when he gets handed a likely stiff penalty by the authorities. British cycling is on record as wanting to make an example of him. I believe he can make a lot of headway with the younger generations if he continues to take his current path.
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
trackie clm
Jul 27, 04 12:20
Post #109 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [brentl]
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>>not cynicism - realism. <<
And what realism is this? Where is your proof?
clm
clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm
TriBriGuy
Jul 27, 04 12:51
Post #110 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [brentl]
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re·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-lzm)
n.
1. An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.
OR...
cyn·i·cism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn-szm)
n.
1. An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others
Hmmm, since I believe words do, indeed, mean things despite rampant misuse these days...I conclude that much of what you have written is cynicism...NOT realism as you claim. Until you can show definitive, LITERAL truth and facts concerning any particular rider and doping, your suppositions and innuendo will remain cynicism.
I won't argue that your cynicism is not warranted, though.
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
brentl
Jul 27, 04 13:42
Post #111 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [ironclm]
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In Reply To:
>>not cynicism - realism. <<
And what realism is this? Where is your proof?
clm
and what would you consider proof? your coach failed a drug test but i am willing to bet that you believe he was clean. so even by that standard, people will continue to disagree. what do you want proof of? each individual rider who is guilty? or just that it is a major problem in the peloton. i think the events of the last five years or so provide ample proof of that.
this is one of those things where you will not get absolute proof except in rare situations. negative tests don't mean a thing. allegations don't mean a thing. but i've talked to enough people and been involved at a high enough level to know sport is dirty. that's just how it is. i don't point fingers at individuals, but i'm not naive enough to think that drug use is an infrequent event.
Jeff7
Jul 27, 04 13:48
Post #112 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [brentl]
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I don't think that any of us believes that the peloton is 100% drug-free, but before you call out someone by name, there needs to be more than a bare accusation. In the Balco situation, there are checks, diaries, initials, etc. That's a lot more than has been produced against Lance or Tyler.
Casey
Jul 27, 04 13:58
Post #113 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Jeff7]
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slowguy
Jul 27, 04 14:46
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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"Well, Barry Bonds is widely acknowledged as one of the best players ever to play baseball, and yet we find his name deeply entrenched in the BALCO case. In fact, ALL of the names that have come out are fairly big stars in the game...and in T&F as well...Montgomery, Jones, et al. "
As far as I know, the only thing we have against Barry Bonds and Marion Jones are allegation and association. Neither Bonds nor Jones have tested positive for anything. Now, you can have your suspicions, I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't cast a critical eye towards sports figures, but that is not the same thing as proof.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
steveperx
Jul 27, 04 14:54
Post #115 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Don't they have checks made out to BALCO by Marion Jones? I seem to remember reading that. Of course, I'm sure the memo section doesn't say "PEDs" on it. So, who knows if she really paid for PEDs?
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Steve Perkins
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 14:58
Post #116 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [steveperx]
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I don't know the specifics of Marion Jones' case, but I thought all the documented proof focused on her husband. also, I guess a defense attorney could argue that Balco sells a lot more than banned substances, but I don't know much about the company either. Basically, I don't know anything.:)
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
steveperx
Jul 27, 04 15:04
Post #117 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Neither do I, but it's sure fun to read some of the stuf from the folks on this forum who seem to everything... including what people are thinking.
:)
-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins
Brian.
Jul 27, 04 15:14
Post #118 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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good point, Casey.
Estimates range in the range of 80-90% of the peloton in on some for of PED. It's more than likely that your favorite cyclist is on some form of PED rather than not on some PED.
I wish they could do something about it. It's a shame.
....
Jul 27, 04 15:34
Post #119 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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just to make sure...where did you get these numbers?
Please don't tell me it's from my own estimate given a few posts above...because these are the numbers I estimated from the french peloton in cat 1, before 1998...
just to clarify things...
Brian.
Jul 27, 04 16:02
Post #120 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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From the NYTimes:
Cut and pasted to save signing in:
SPORTS OF THE TIMES
Armstrong's Toughest Rival May Be the Sport of Cycling
By GEORGE VECSEY
Published: July 19, 2004
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Tour de France (Bicycle Race)
Bicycles and Bicycling
HEN Lance Armstrong arrives at the head of the pack next Sunday - as he almost surely will - he will deserve all the cheers as a strong and charismatic six-time champion of the Tour de France.
But trailing right behind Armstrong, like a malevolent shadow, is the ugly culture of cycling - eight riders who died in the past 15 months, at least 16 riders who have been yanked out of this Tour because of drugs.
Cycling cannot escape the suspicion of being dirty. Don't necessarily take the word of a former Tour champion like Greg LeMond, who has criticized Armstrong in recent days. Don't necessarily believe the book, the television programs, the newspaper articles and the former associates currently raising doubts about Armstrong.
Take the word of the people who run cycling. A few hours before the Tour kicked off in Belgium on July 3, five officials held a news conference.
"Clearly and unfortunately, doping hasn't been beaten," said Patrice Clerc, the president of Amaury Sports, the organizer of the Tour. "We had hoped for faster progress."
Clerc promised more tests and threatened to pull riders out for mere suspicion of drug use. At least one full team of nine riders and seven individual riders did not start or have been suspended in the first two weeks, while two others, including one member of Armstrong's team, could still be dropped.
"We don't say doping; we say we're preparing for the race," Richard Virenque of France said in 2000 after being suspended when an official of his team, Festina, was caught hauling illegal drugs across a border.
"To take drugs is to cheat," Virenque said. "As long as the person doesn't test positive, they're not taking drugs."
He came back and won a stage on Bastille Day last week. Vive le Tour.
The engrained cynicism was reinforced when I was over there for the first week of the Tour. Cycling makes track and field look like a church picnic. Cycling makes baseball look like six-a-side in a vacant lot, the way kids used to play.
Ninety percent of professional cyclists take illegal drugs, estimated Philippe Gaumont of France, who is not at this Tour for having been among that elite majority.
The general pervasiveness of drugs comes through in the new book "L.A. Confidentiel: Les Secrets de Lance Armstrong" by David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, recently published by La Martiniere only in French. I found it informative and serious, particularly on the depressing state of cycling.
The authors interviewed Armstrong's former personal masseuse, Emma O'Reilly; a former teammate, Stephen Swart; a former team doctor, Prentice Steffen; and LeMond, who won the Tour in 1986, 1989 and 1990. All raised questions about whether Armstrong uses performance-enhancing drugs, which he categorically denies, often saying he is the most tested athlete in any sport and has never tested positive.
"You know what they say, the high trees get the wind," Armstrong said on Thursday.
Walsh, who has been voted Britain's sportswriter of the year three times, has described the evidence regarding Armstrong as circumstantial, and he is right about that.
In the book, Swart describes the perceived need in the mid-90's to keep up with other teams by using erythropoietin, or EPO, which raises the number of red blood cells, allows greater consumption of oxygen and enhances the athletic performance of those who take it. (In the book, Swart says he dropped out of a race fatigued, only to have his energy kick in days later.)
EPO is hard to detect, said Dr. Gary Wadler, an international drug expert and a professor of medicine at New York University, because the "effect of the drug outlasts its detectability."
In the late 80's, 18 young Belgian and Dutch cyclists and a number of Scandinavian orienteering athletes mysteriously died, their deaths linked by overly thick blood. In time, cyclists learned to thin out their enriched blood.
The Tour's current limit for red-blood cells is 50 percent of the total unit of blood; any higher and cyclists are dropped from the race, for reasons of health, said the medical announcement when Gorka Gonzalez of Spain tested high before this year's Tour.
The apparent rise in blood doping angered LeMond, who says a cyclist friend died from it. In a telephone conversation last week, LeMond reiterated his criticism of Armstrong's relationship with Dr. Michele Ferrari of Italy, whom Armstrong describes as a friend and counselor.
In a recent public statement, Armstrong said: "It is true that Dr. Ferrari has been on trial in Italy for a number of years for allegedly providing drugs to athletes. I have been clear about this issue. First, I have never seen anything that would lead me to believe that Dr. Ferrari would do such a thing, and second, I continue to believe that he deserves the benefit of a simple presumption: innocent until proven guilty."
It is clear that LeMond and Armstrong have had a contentious relationship since LeMond began questioning superior performances on mountains that had not suddenly become less steep.
"Lance is ready to do anything to keep his secret," LeMond was quoted as saying in the French newspaper Le Monde on Thursday. "I don't know how he can continue to convince everybody of his innocence."
In an e-mail message, LeMond verified his remarks to the newspaper.
Last week, Armstrong angrily charged a French television crew with trying to infiltrate his team's quarters. This has its roots in the same network's filming of two men carrying medical waste from the United States Postal Service team's hotel and depositing it 100 miles away on a rest stop on the highway. Among the remains was Actovegin, which is used to thin blood and was later banned in cycling.
O'Reilly, the masseuse, is quoted in the Walsh-Ballester book about being asked by Armstrong to handle drug material on several occasions. She also discusses how Armstrong came up with traces of a steroid in 1999, which he has attributed to a cream used to treat saddle sores.
Armstrong was rebuffed by a French court after asking that his denial of all doping accusations be included in the Walsh-Ballester book.
Yesterday, Armstrong was quoted by Reuters as saying he understood some of the criticism: "The guy nearly died from cancer and it's impossible that he could win the toughest race in the world."
He said cycling had gotten tougher since the Festina scandal, and he added that in 10 or 15 years: "Everybody will remember that I won five or six Tours de France. I'm convinced everybody will know then that I was clean."
I find no reason to stop regarding Lance Armstrong as one of the great athletes of his time. His sport really needs to get clean.
triathron
Jul 27, 04 16:04
Post #121 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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>>>
We see a rash of positive tests from cross-country skiiers and track athletes and are left to assume one of 2 things,
1. All athletes at the top level of these sports are on PED's, or
2. They are all on it except those that I like and are from my country.
<<<
Or, you could rationally assume that there are a lot of cheaters in those sports, but to assume that ALL of them are doping is to throw logic out the window. There are always exceptions, and I'm not so cynical as to believe it's *impossible* to achieve without drugs.
Prior to Roger Bannister, the 4min/mi was 'impossible'. Swimming in the Antarctic is 'impossible'. Running across the USA is 'impossible'. And they've all been done.
As far as 'realism' vs. 'cynicism', what you believe says far more about your own attitude than it does about truth - negative people will tend to believe the worst in others, positive people will want to believe the best, and what's actually true doesn't change that a whit. We see the world as we are, not as it is, regardless of how much we claim ours are the only eyes seeing clearly.
Realism would be to accept that there are outstanding athletes who challenge and surpass all limits placed before them, and that there are others who will take any shortcut offered. It's no more realistic to say they're all doping than it is to say none of them are.
....
Jul 27, 04 16:15
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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I don't see the 80 to 90% you are referring to in this article.
smartasscoach
Jul 27, 04 16:17
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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The number is from the Cofidis guy that ratted. And the team was kept on the TdF... what a joke... Kind of like the RAGT team... I guess it's french humor Francois? :-)
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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
....
Jul 27, 04 16:18
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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At least RAGT has to be clean :-)
Brian.
Jul 27, 04 16:23
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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Ninety percent of professional cyclists take illegal drugs, estimated Philippe Gaumont of France, who is not at this Tour for having been among that elite majority.
triathron
Jul 27, 04 16:53
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Brian286]
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>>
Ninety percent of professional cyclists take illegal drugs, estimated Philippe Gaumont of France, who is not at this Tour for having been among that elite majority.
<<
And of course he has no incentive to make the 'everybody else does it' argument.
If someone who never got caught, who's still in the peloton, made such a comment, then it might be slightly more believable. But coming as it does from someone who was caught w/ his hand in the EPO jar, his comments carry zero weight w/ me.
TriBriGuy
Jul 27, 04 17:08
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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The 90% was Gaumont's estimate. Without meaning to cast aspersions on Gaumont, at least any more than he's already done himself, any of us could pull a similar percentage out of thin air about some fact concerning our respective livelihoods. That statement by Gaumont is about as statistically sound as saying that 90% of all blondes are bimbos. I could just as easily generalize and say that 90% of all sailors are overweight. Surely enough a "shedload" of them are fat, but I'm willing to bet I'd get more than a few dissenters to my opinion. Hell, we could all guess that 99% of all rock stars are on drugs. How many suppose thats true despite the plethora of stars making the rehab rounds?
Basically, I'm saying I need a bit more scientific polling before I take a 90% figure as fact.
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
slowguy
Jul 27, 04 19:18
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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I agree. A guy who didn't get to ride the Tour because he was doping isn't exactly the most credible witness.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
jhc
Jul 27, 04 19:22
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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Aw geez Mom, why am I in trouble, everyone else was doing it!
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
smartasscoach
Sep 21, 04 3:33
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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I thought I would ressurect this thread, I think the discussion may continue now.
-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
callidus
Sep 21, 04 3:40
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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True.
I copied a story into this thread (see link) from
www.eurosport.com
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread
a shame.
------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
TriBriGuy
Sep 21, 04 4:07
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [callidus]
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Yup, this one's gonna leave a mark. If it proves out its just one more nail in the coffin. We'll also begin to understand, as Americans, how the Italians felt when Marco popped... There's a VERY short list of current US riders "bigger" than Tyler.
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
smartasscoach
Sep 21, 04 4:11
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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This might just be the begining at Phonak. I'm still waiting on the results from the weekend from Santi Perez, I sure hope he was tested with the same procedure!
Also very interesting that the result at the Olympics wasn't annouced. Anyway, it's another medal for Michael Rogers!
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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
Coggan's Heroes
Sep 21, 04 4:15
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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just remember, you heard it here first, but in order to get into the top teir of pro cycling, that next level, you all but have to take drugs.
My bet is that anyone who thinks cycling is clean, particularly american domestic cycling, is going to be a bit shocked in the coming months.
Axel
Sep 21, 04 4:51
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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In Reply To:
I thought I would ressurect this thread, I think the discussion may continue now.
thank you... i wanted tp post the link in this thread but couldn´t find it anymore.
Axel
smartasscoach
Sep 21, 04 5:07
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [cync67]
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Yeah, I hope people that were defending him basically because he's english-speaking will again defend him. The same happened with David Millar. In light of this time, conclusive evidence.
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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
kenwil
Sep 21, 04 5:12
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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Given that he's a pro cyclist with a positive test, odds are excellent he's doping. But I would like to hear a little more about the method by which red cells circulating normally can be differentiated from those harvested earlier, stored, then injected. Hopefully that information will be forthcoming as well.
Ken
MarcK
Sep 21, 04 5:35
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kenwil]
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Here's a link to the cyclingnews article:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...004/sep04/sep21news2
Tyler tested positive for homologous blood transfusions at the Athens olympics and at the Vuelta. Homologous transfusions are blood transfusions from someone other than yourself.
I sure hope Phonak sacks him. That means two of my favorite riders (Hamilton and Millar) are out in one year.
-Marc
Sojourner
Sep 21, 04 5:44
Post #139 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [kenwil]
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It's a rhetorical question, but sometimes I wonder why we hold elite athletes to a microscrope that other professions are not under. What about the doctors, some who ironically enough may be conducting the athletes doping tests, that used illegal stimulants while in grad school so they could study through the night? What about the business men who play with coke from time to time? The teacher who smokes pot on the weekends? Do the songs, poems, novels, and performances in general become any less moving because the artist shifted their own minds perspective by using a drug? I do believe we should rid the sport of pharmaceutical influence, but it won't be done until we remove the pharmaceutical industry from our society completely. Maybe a great showdown between holistic healing and the pharmaceutical industry is on the horizon.
NYCTri
Sep 21, 04 6:01
Post #140 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [MarcK]
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Just to state the obvious. Tyler has not been proven guilty of ANYTHING yet. Lets wait and see what the details of the story are before we hang him. Personally I have my doubts about about most top athletes but I am going to wait this one out. Unless you have seen something that I have not this does not difinitively indicated he did anything wrong. He had blood abnormalities. Is doping the only way to get blood abnormalities...No. Lets wait and get the full story before we decided the punishment.
JW
JW (on the comback trail)
TripleThreat
Sep 21, 04 6:05
Post #141 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [JoeMWiley]
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Start banning/suspending coaches that have athletes that test positive, suspend doctors that help supply/supervise drug-administering, etc ... and you'll see a drop in drug-use/trafficing.
Right now, the athlete is one that gets in trouble, so it's basically a "risky" move that many athletes are willing to take. Truth be told, as we can see by the *action* taken in other major sports .... it doesn't appear that ridding the world of sports of drugs is a high priority ... or even a realistic possibility. Drug-use in sports has aided performance to reach monumental levels ... who wants to see drug-free athletes accomplish less? (<-- that's the arguement I hear a lot).
Kinda weird how all of the athletes (outside of Barry Bonds) associated with BALCO didn't do near as well in this Olympics as they did in previous ones huh?
With the *ahem* action governing bodies are taking against drug-users and more importantly, those who are repeatedly associated with drug-users, it gives the appearance of someone trying to place a band-aid on a severed jugular.
Drugs in sports REALLY bothers me because if you're not competing in a sport that's more skill than ability, at some point you're going to have to decide whether you're ready to sell your soul or do something else. A good number of athletes (based on my personal experience) don't even consider someone to be *serious* about their sport until they start taking drugs (and not just minimal amounts either). That mindset is something that I have seen go from being fringe to norm.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
....
Sep 21, 04 6:09
Post #142 of 243
(1895 views)
Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [NYCTri]
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doping is definitely the only way to have two clear sets of red blood cells: a set of young ones and a set of old ones with nothing in between...
http://sports.fr/fr/cmc/cyclisme/200439/cmc_49113.html
I don't remember anyone saying: let's wait the B sample for Katja Shumacher (except me....who actually said that...)
freestyle
Sep 21, 04 6:16
Post #143 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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So... when is LA gonna test positive?
lucky
Sep 21, 04 6:16
Post #144 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [MarcK]
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NO!!!!
atuo- blood transfusions come from oneself. Homologous would come from somebody else(with the same type). Anti doping agencies previously announced that they could detect blood transfusions from somebody else (ie homologous) but not blood that came from Tyler to Tyler (auto-)[though apparently they can now, but didn't admit it at the time, cunning]. the cycling news article stated that flow cytometry was used to distinguish these. Unfortunately, there will be a large challenge to the validity of the technique, especially since no one was aware of it beforehand.
Flow cytometry is a technique that allows one to seperate different cell types based on how they flow through a liquid. It can also be used for large macromolecules (ie chromosomes in a karyotype). How they applied to old and new red blood cells I know not.
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lucky
Sep 21, 04 6:18
Post #145 of 243
(1850 views)
Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [JoeMWiley]
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no one dies when tyler doesn't win the stage. Rhetoric or not.
NYCTri
Sep 21, 04 6:18
Post #146 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Francois]
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...well if that is the case then maybe he is a cheat. I had no comment on Katja Schumacher though (don't really know who she is).
One thing that I personally think is funny is when sprinters (in general) get caught with a banned substance and blame it on a protein shake or some cold medicine. At this point in the game if you use your body as an athlete for a living you should know absolutely everything that goes in that body. No excuses.
JW
PS-where can I get some THG so I can keep up with the Jones' and be more competitive at my local race...
JW (on the comback trail)
WebSwim
Sep 21, 04 6:18
Post #147 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TripleThreat]
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>Start banning/suspending coaches that have athletes that test positive, suspend doctors that help supply/supervise drug-administering, etc ... and you'll see a drop in drug-use/trafficing.
No, you won't. The rewards in elite sport are so great that someone will always be willing to risk whatever ban is on the table.
Steroids made an appearance in track & swimming back in the early 70s, and cycling has always been a pioneer in the use of PEDs. There's no efffective way to remove drugs from elite sport.
lucky
Sep 21, 04 6:22
Post #148 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [JoeMWiley]
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Great showdown between holistic healing and the pharm industry?
I hope you're kidding because if not you're a crackpot.
freestyle
Sep 21, 04 6:29
Post #149 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [WebSwim]
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Yep. In the old old tour days (early 1900's) the riders used to eat bull testicles to get more testosterone. People are always trying to improve, even if by external means. This is not going to stop.
TripleThreat
Sep 21, 04 6:56
Post #150 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [WebSwim]
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I think going after coaches, doctors/team physicians, "diet coaches", etc ... would be more effective than what's going on now. Currently, the athletes gets busted/suspended, and that athlete is replaced by another.
I would highly doubt it if at the elite level if many athletes self-prescribe, administer, and monitor their own drug usage. I also doubt many athletes stay on top of "beating the test" strategies on their own.
Remove the "helpers", as well as the athlete, and it will be more effective. I agree completely that it is fighting a losing battle.
I'm sure many folks can name certain coaches/teams inside their own sport that routinely have athletes "test positive". It's not coincidence.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
(This post was
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jss
Sep 21, 04 7:07
Post #151 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [lucky]
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It is not an autologous blood transfusion, the prior post was correct. The article states that:
Tyler Hamilton (Phonak), has returned two positive blood tests that showed evidence of a homologous blood transfusion. One test was performed at the Athens Olympics and another at the Vuelta on September 13. Both tests showed evidence of a "mixed red blood cell population, an indication of a homologous blood transfusion."
In other words he received a transfusion of blood from someone else. Personally, I hope that he is able to estabilsh that it is from a "surgical intervention," as the story states is his defense.
jss
zoomy3
Sep 21, 04 7:28
Post #152 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jss]
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The lifetime of an RBC in the blood stream is about 120 days (4 months). Does anyone think Tyler had surgery that required a transfusion (i.e. major surgery) in the two months before the tour, or the one month before the olympics, or the one month before the Vuelta?
-------
Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
Mike Lamb
Sep 21, 04 7:36
Post #153 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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let me preface by saying that i hope tyler is innocent, but...
if he did have major surgery, why wouldn't he just mention it immediately in order to head off any potential doping problems?
second, how would no one have heard about it? as zoomy states, a surgery involving a transfusion isn't run of the mill stuff. i'd think it would have made the news at some point...
f/k/a mclamb6
mattinzeo
Sep 21, 04 7:39
Post #154 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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My hope in light of these first tests is that Tyler needed some sort of procedure after the Tour because of his back. While I can't speak to the medicine behind it, it is possible that he required blood for some reason. And being a big fan of Tyler, I hope that there is some explanation for this. It would really be a shame to see someone who has fought so hard be a fraud.
Casey
Sep 21, 04 7:41
Post #155 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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WFO
Sep 21, 04 8:00
Post #156 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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It was Lance's blood. Lance wins gold!
http://www.barefootrunning.org
AJHull
Sep 21, 04 8:04
Post #157 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [JoeMWiley]
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There is a big difference between elite athletes and other occupations. In sport, we are always looking for the limits of human potential. With other occupations there is very little (if any) benefit to taking drugs; therefore, we can typically say that a persons success in their career is not the result of drug use (I am generalizing here).
Simply said, we still like to believe when we witness an incredible performance that it was performed with no PED's and that it was solely the result of hard work and determination. I think for many athletes it condures up images of what is possible for themselves. Once the line is crossed and PED's are used, how does one know to what degree the outcome was determined as a result of PED usage.
It will be an incredibly sad day when or if PED's become accepted in elite sport. I, for one, think we should continue with our current approach and improve the science of detecting and test regularly and unexpectedly.
I imagine the blow to an athlete's character in the public domain when they have tested positive overshadows the joy of their wins and they would gladly reverse time. Perhaps what we need is to have more athletes that have tested positive talk about their experiences (their embarrassment and humiliation) in order to deter use by future stars.
_____
Adrian in Vancouver
_____
freestyle
Sep 21, 04 8:05
Post #158 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [WFO]
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Here we go... someone mentions Lance and his #1 fan, WFO, jumps back out of his lurking shadow and posts.
WFO
Sep 21, 04 8:16
Post #159 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [freestyle]
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well, how else do you explain it? he won the gold with somebody else's blood. who's blood would you take if you wanted to win? Lance's! Lance wins!
no, i'm YOUR biggest fan, freestyle. ;)
http://www.barefootrunning.org
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jaj
Sep 21, 04 8:41
Post #160 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [5280]
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You can't stop drugs and user techniques that are not yet known about. Do you really think that THG is the first and only drug that has been created to not be detectable? How many more are out there?
We would not even know about THG if it had not been for Marion's trainer.
I honestly believe that there will be no end to doping in cycling or any sport.
The new drugs and techniques are far ahead and continue to improve. There is much more money in coming up with the new drugs and techniques than there is on the other side of the ball.
Besides, do we really want to see an end to doping? Homeruns would take a dive, smaller bodybuilders, weaker weightlifters, slower cyclists, etc... It's fun to watch the freaks!
randymar
Sep 21, 04 8:46
Post #161 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [MarcK]
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In Reply To:
Homologous transfusions are blood transfusions from someone other than yourself.
Thanks for clearing that up ... I was under the impression that homologous transfusions were transfusions from a dwarf. I couldn't see how that would help.
--------------------------------------------
"Our paths to Victory and Defeat could not have been more different, which, I suppose, explains our respective outcomes."
- Wankmeister
(This post was
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jaj
Sep 21, 04 8:59
Post #162 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [slowguy]
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See, this is where you suffer from the ostrich syndrome. What more proof do you need? Thety have cancelled checks and calendars with names and initials that show the cycle of the different drugs. That's pretty hefty. Combine that with the fact that Marion Jones was the best in the world four years ago and this time around could not even qualify for the US team in most events.
No, you would not find a positive drug test in this case due to the fact that the drug, THG, was not even known about.
bbohica
Sep 21, 04 9:11
Post #163 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler
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Here is the abstract for the paper on the transfusion test he failed. A bit technical but 10% of you will understand it all.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...58&dopt=Abstract
JBergland
Sep 21, 04 9:14
Post #164 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [mclamb6]
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"if he did have major surgery, why wouldn't he just mention it immediately in order to head off any potential doping problems?"
I'm sure that is what they have been 'working on' for the last 24-48 hours!!
JB
ShawnF
Sep 21, 04 9:35
Post #165 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [JBergland]
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From the earlier accusations:
"The claim that, I along with another teammate, approached a team doctor and asked him questions about doping products back in 1996 is absolutely false. I swear on my wife’s life and the grave of my dog that I never asked that man about anything of the sort. If you know anything about me, you know this is as emphatic as I can be. I'm truly saddened to have to respond publicly to such an accusation." - Tyler Hamilton
Man, his wife is going to be pissed if he lied and Tugboat's ghost will haunt him forever.
shawn
jaj
Sep 21, 04 10:25
Post #166 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wednesday]
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Yeah, he's using his wife anf dead dog as scapegoats. Notice how he never mentions himself. Everybody knows that if you are in the fire you should bring along others. But poor tugboat, he can't even defend himself!!
Casey
Sep 21, 04 10:31
Post #167 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Wednesday]
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smartasscoach
Sep 21, 04 11:11
Post #168 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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I'm not sad. I'm happy that another cheater was caught. It was a battle won, only with many battles won can we aspire to win the war.
-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
big kahuna
Sep 21, 04 11:14
Post #169 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jasonk]
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Prentice Steffen was a doctor who leeched onto the Posties and had no background in sports medicine or the science involved in exercise physiology. He wasn't even the official team doctor, either. His assertions have been effectively rebutted in the past. Just more sour grapes from another sycophant. Brrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaappppppppp!
K.
zoomy3
Sep 21, 04 11:31
Post #170 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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Well said, SAC. Catch as many THs as possible. Throw out half the bums in the freakin' peloton if that's what it takes!
-------
Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
adrialin
Sep 21, 04 11:42
Post #171 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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This tactics is really childish and insults any intelligence:
Attack the person right back, question their integrity and use it to distract attention from the real issue.
It may work with un-educated people or anybody with a limited attention span (that is why politicians use it very successful) ,
but to me this tactics just come across as an expression of despair and helplessness.
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
big kahuna
Sep 21, 04 11:51
Post #172 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [adrialin]
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For anybody really familiar with the particulars surrounding Dr. Steffen and his relationship with the Posties, the pejorative use of the word sycophant is perfectly appropriate. I also said that his assertions, which can in no way be objectively proven by him or anyone else with a bone to pick over the dominance of the U.S. team at the TDF in recent years, are baseless and unproven. If he brought provable facts, instead of supposition and accusation, he might get a better reception. And he still wasn't the team doctor for the Posties. More of a hanger-on, in fact.
Come to think of it, sycophant is too mild. LIAR is the better word for him.
K.
adrialin
Sep 21, 04 12:07
Post #173 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jaj]
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jaj,
You sound like my evil twin :-;
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
TripleThreat
Sep 21, 04 12:27
Post #174 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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I'm not sad. I'm happy that another cheater was caught. It was a battle won, only with many battles won can we aspire to win the war.
Same here. I know a lot of guys that "hate athletes" and seem to cheer when athletes fall. I'm not like that, but when folks cheat, I'm glad they get caught. I hate it when years later once they're retired (Caminiti, Canseco, Rose, LT, etc) they admit their cheating when it's profitable for them to do so (i.e., writing a book). Folks seem to give them credit and say how honorable they are when they are honest after the fact. Honorable athletes would never have cheated in the first place.
Seems like every athlete I rooted for turned out to be a druggie or an a'hole. Rickey Henderson, Dwight Gooden, David Wingate, Keith Hernandez, etc. I feel bad for kids that look up to athletes that cheat. It's usually their first dose of the reality of sports.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
(This post was
edited
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MarcK
Sep 21, 04 12:39
Post #175 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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I don't know about that. . . Dr Steffen had first hand experience. Those are strong alegations and they had a negative impact on Hamilton's reputation. If Steffen was lying, why wouldn't Hamilton just sue him? Should be easy to prove--- Just have all of the other Postal team doctors testify under oath that Hamilton was clean and provide the full results of the medical tests that the other team doctors performed on Hamilton. Hamilton is a millionaire. It seems like he would spend a few tens of thousands in legal fees to protect his reputation.
With that said, I'll go on the record and say I think Lance was clean at least this year. What convinced me was that Lance increased his margin of victory when the race organizers modified the TDF to make it harder to cheat. In 2004 they enhanced the blood tests and pushed the critical stages until late in the race when the effects of pre-race EPO would have worn off. Lance was even more dominant and many consistent contenders fell away.
-Marc
Erik Clark
Sep 21, 04 12:49
Post #176 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [freestyle]
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"Yep. In the old old tour days (early 1900's) the riders used to eat bull testicles to get more testosterone."
You have got to be kidding....right?
----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year
freestyle
Sep 21, 04 12:54
Post #177 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [E in C-bus]
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Nope.. I'll see if I can find the article I read this in.
Here we go:
http://outside.away.com/...311_drug_test_3.html
Quote:
NO ONE KNOWS how long athletes have taken supplements, but it's been going on quite a while, since well before the modern era of drug manufacture. The coca leaves that South American runners used for centuries provided a natural boost.
Back in the early 1900s, when racers in the first years of the Tour de France ate bull testicles as snacks, they were simply trying to increase their testosterone levels.
(This post was
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big kahuna
Sep 21, 04 12:59
Post #178 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [MarcK]
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Spending 10k on legal fees just to rebut assertions that can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, if you want to take it to the criminal courts or with a preponderance of evidence if you handle it civilly? I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to be "innocent until proven guilty" and not the other way around.
K.
mistergomez
Sep 21, 04 13:02
Post #179 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TripleThreat]
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If this is true, for Tyler Hamilton, in the immortal words of singer, Faith Evans, "Love Don't Live Here Anymore."
Murg
Sep 21, 04 13:42
Post #180 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TripleThreat]
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A month from now, a year from now, it may be clearly shown that Tyler is guilty of PEDs. I'm not going to assert he's clean...who knows? But I do know that the fundamental foundation of many democratic legal systems, that a man is innocent until proven guilty, is one of the two or three precepts that make my society and nation such a great one. Even though Tyler is not criminally charged, I still prefer to use that standard in evaluating stuff like this.
Think "what if." What if Tyler is innocent? What if the test results are discredited after the further analysis and retesting that is being done? What if this doc has an agenda of some sort? What if he misunderstood Tyler's and Marty's conversation due to a language problem? How unfair for any of us to pre-judge him, to slur someone who might be a terrific athlete who is clean?
Again, a month from now, maybe even a week, the tests may show he wasn't clean. I say sanction him then, take away the gold medal, throw the book at him. But please don't jump to conclusions based on this first wave of reports coming in from a European cycling press corps that plenty of times in the past has been shown to be off the mark.
Marco in BC
Sep 21, 04 13:57
Post #181 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [freestyle]
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very interesting article freestyle, thanks for posting it
p2k2001
Sep 21, 04 14:46
Post #182 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jaj]
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"I am 100 percent innocent," Hamilton said
.
Didn't OJ Simpson say the same thing?
_______________________________________________
you know my name, look up my number
_______________________________________________
big kahuna
Sep 21, 04 14:55
Post #183 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [klaatu]
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Now that's a comparison. A man who most likely brutally attacked and viciously murdered two people, and who bought the best justice available in a court of criminal law and a pro cyclist who has had his name smeared on the statement of a fellow who cannot provide one single shred of hard evidence about an incident that occurred over 7 years ago, and who may or may not have a hidden agenda himself.
K.
smartasscoach
Sep 21, 04 15:12
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I would say Tyler is about 48-49% innocent... ;-)
-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke
smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com
Styk33
Sep 21, 04 15:36
Post #185 of 243
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In Reply To:
"I am 100 percent innocent," Hamilton said
.
Didn't OJ Simpson say the same thing?
And he was found not guilty too!
Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)
"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman
zoomy3
Sep 21, 04 15:41
Post #186 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [smartasscoach]
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Well, it seems that the defense of Tyler has begun with a 100% denial claim, but with no explanation of why he could possibly have tested positive. Twice. In fact, it seems that their defense in this case will be to cast doubt on the accuracy of the test. I can't comment on the test itself, but I do think it is funny, considering the knee-jerk reaction was 'uh, it came from a previous surgical intervention.' Thankfully they gave up that line of BS, as they probably have no record of any such surgery.
I also find it interesting the way Pino (sp?) and Phonak seem to have decided to stand by their "investment." I don't remember Camenzid (sp?) getting the same treatment.
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
jhc
Sep 21, 04 17:06
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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I just looked at the paper describing the test - while it looks like it can miss some transfusions, it's hard to imagine how one could obtain a false-positive test.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Casey
Sep 21, 04 17:12
Post #188 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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zoomy3
Sep 21, 04 17:18
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Hey jhc, thanks for the input. I believe I remember reading you are a biochemist/microbio type? The paper is at the edge of my knowledge, but it seemed like a pretty simple IgG immunoassay when I looked at it. That's the main reason I am not willing to give him "benefit of the doubt" in this case.
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
adrialin
Sep 21, 04 17:59
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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Well,
Since I like to stirr things up a little bit: There are cases of some sort of "unexplained" (=auto) allo-antibody reactivity described in literature, although the cause of this would certainly be something Mr. Hamilton would remember and may or may not disclose (A possible mass crash in the peloton with riders bathing in each-others blood or some other highly "unusual practices" involving a more extensive direct blood to blood contact come to mind). The test is very sensitive, which might be something that I would use as an argument against the testers (If I were Mr. Hamilton). Said all that, with this test a very limited amount of blood gaining access to the circulatory system of Mr. Hamilton might be enough to trigger a positive test result. Under that aspect the blood transfusion argument is not that far fetched. It would be interesting to see the actual results of this test and/or the possible defense strategy Mr. Hamiltons lawyers will come up with. I could argue that the equipment used for his post-race infusions was heavily contaminated with another riders blood.... All highly unlikely, B.T.W.
Just some food for thought.... and to keep up the hopes of people who think that he actually raced clean.
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
Steepler2k
Sep 21, 04 18:03
Post #191 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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You're right. It's pretty much a standard immunoassay using flow cytometry, primary antibody for antigen, secondary antibody with flourescent tag against the primary antibody. All they had to do was identify enough minor blood antigens prevent false positives. We use flow cytometry in the immunology lab I work in, it's amazingly accurate. Considering the test the Australian lab developed marks 12 antigens, the chances of this being a false positive are slim and none, and considering it tested positive twice, I'd say there's a less than 1% chance that this is a false positive. Unless there was contamination of both samples, it looks like Tyler's in deep. We'll probably know within a couple days on whether the B samples from the Olys and the Vuelta are positive. It's interesting that the only defense that they have taken is to discredit the test/testers, just another form of smear tactics.
jhc
Sep 21, 04 18:25
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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Yeah, I'm a grad student - I've actually done quite a bit of flow cytometry.
The new test is really pretty simple - everyone knows about the ABO and Rh (+ or -) blood types... basically they're just the presence or absence of certain proteins on the cell surface. This new test is looking at 7 or so other proteins that are variably present on different people. For any given protein, you either have it on all or none of your RBCs. When you see a certain protein present on only 20% of your RBCs for example, there's really no explanation other than that the 20% came from another person.
Unless Tylers blood sample was mixed up with someone else's, I don't see how this wouldn't be a real positive test.
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
zoomy3
Sep 21, 04 18:41
Post #193 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [adrialin]
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I think it would be great to have a lawyer pull the "accidental blood mixing" argument if I was an expert in this case. I would then go into a quick tutorial on dilution factor. I think the jury would side with me.
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
TriBriGuy
Sep 21, 04 18:42
Post #194 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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If these tests are "standard", "amazingly accurate", and seemingly routine by the accounts here...why has it taken this long to use them for doping testing? How long have the tests been around? Just curious. You all seem fairly certain about how reliable these tests are.
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AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
Steepler2k
Sep 21, 04 18:58
Post #195 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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You have to identify enough antigens for the test to be reliable. As jhc stated in a previous post, the lab identified cell surface proteins of red blood cells. These are similar to the AB and Rh antigens that are used for blood typing. In this case, they are using minor proteins that don't elicit a response from the recipient's immune system. A person has some mixture of these proteins on the surface of all of their red blood cells, but it's an all or nothing deal. Either every red blood cell has the protein, or none do. Without going into too many technicalities, primary and secondary antibodies have to be designed. First, a primary antibody is designed to bind the specific antigen, this is usually done by immunizing some mammal (typically a mouse or rabbit) and harvesting the newly created antibodies. Next, the secondary antibody is created using the same technique, except with the purpose of binding the primary antibody. This secondary antibody carries a flourescent tag that a flow cytometry machine detects. The cells go through the machine and are separated based on their flourescence. If a significant amount (say about 20%) have a protein that the majority of the rest of the red blood cells don't have, this is an indication of blood doping, because that protein couldn't come from the person's body. This is also why it can only test for homologous blood transfusions. If you use your own blood, there's no difference in the proteins on the surface of the red blood cells.
AJHull
Sep 21, 04 19:29
Post #196 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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I thought the idea behind blood doping was to inject your
OWN
blood which was extracted weeks before. Why would an athlete use anothers blood? I am naive on this one. Is it so the athlete never has to extract blood in the first place?
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Adrian in Vancouver
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Steepler2k
Sep 21, 04 20:04
Post #197 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [AJHull]
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Some people do their own blood, but when you have to train at a high level year round, taking blood out is going to reduce how hard you can train. Using another's blood gets the best of both worlds. You don't have to worry about scaling back training for a week while you wait for your red blood cell level to come back up, and you can still get the added benefit of extra blood when you need to compete.
Marco in BC
Sep 21, 04 20:13
Post #198 of 243
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not to mention that if you're cycling PED's earlier in the season (when supposedly you'd be taking out the blood) they would likely show up once you put your blood back in... I mean, if somebody does this type of blood doping I think it'd be safe to assume they'd also do EPO/HGH/steroids, after all if you cheat might as well cheat all you can.
(note that I don't mean Tyler did all this, I'm just talking about a hypotetical cheater person)
cidewar
Sep 21, 04 20:25
Post #199 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Marco in BC]
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the main point of blood doping isn't that it works in conjunction with other doping products - it works instead of EPO type products because up until now the only way to get caught was if someone were to find piles of empty blood bags in your condo.
jaylew
Sep 21, 04 20:32
Post #200 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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In Reply To:
Now that's a comparison. A man who most likely brutally attacked and viciously murdered two people, and who bought the best justice available in a court of criminal law and a pro cyclist who has had his name smeared on the statement of a fellow who cannot provide one single shred of hard evidence about an incident that occurred over 7 years ago, and who may or may not have a hidden agenda himself.
Dude, what are you talking about? His name has been smeared b/c of his 2
failed
blood tests, nevermind the previous allegations(which don't seem so farfetched anymore). It would be great if he's somehow proven innocent, but it's sure not looking good right now.
Murg
Sep 21, 04 21:24
Post #201 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jaylew]
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christ, the Tyler story is all over the Boston TV evening news. Ten+ minutes worth. Even had his poor dad standing out there in front of the house defending his son. Interview with Richard Freese, buddies, former teammates, coaches, regional gearheads. All defending him. All saying yes there's a problem in the sport but Tyler has always stood firm against PEDs.
Most interesting was an interview with a doctor who supposedly understands this test...he said that the Olympics testing was the maiden voyage for this particular test. The Vuelta was the second use of the test. His opinion was that it was very possible that any new testing procedure was susceptible to improper procedures or measurement. His opinion was that the IOC should have kept their mouths shut until the secondary tests come in.
Remember, this is TV news, in the hometown...
TriBriGuy
Sep 22, 04 3:58
Post #202 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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Not to offend, but your reply was blah blah blah to this layman...
Actually, I can understand what you wrote, but it didn't answer my question. How long has this testing technology been around? Why are they just now able to impliment it? Your description makes it sound like its been around for some time. I'd have thought the huge '98 Festina scandal would have brought out all types of tests at their earliest point in order to deter the dopers. Blood doping predates EPO and similar products. Why not have this test sooner? Or is there something different about their protocol from what you describe? You make it sound pretty airtight to me, given well controlled procedures.
***********************
AmZof Lemming! Target AmZof SC 2013!
kenwil
Sep 22, 04 4:33
Post #203 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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"Why not have this test sooner?"
The technology has been around for many years (maybe 20 or so ?). It's the application that is new. Sort of like using fuel cells to power cars. Why hasn't it been used in doping controls before now? Same reason as the cars- time x money. Takes both to develop the testing to the point it can be used in volume. The original uses of the technique had nothing to do with catching dopers in endurance sports, and while it may be hard for particpants here to believe- most scientific types don't spend much time thinking about improving endurance performance/catching dopers. I'm still waiting to hear more about Tyler's results. I suppose it's still possible that he had false positives, but it would have to be in such a way that he's ALWAYS false positive. It would depend on how the testers set the screens. Time will tell.
Ken
Steepler2k
Sep 22, 04 4:38
Post #204 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [TriBriGuy]
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I'm not sure how long the test in general has been around. But considering they are using 12 cell-surface proteins to do the test, it takes a long time to identify them, then to design all of the primary and secondary antibodies. The point of my previous post of explaining the technique was to try and convey how long it takes just to develop all of the reagents used. Even then, they had to do a ton of testing to even be able to publish it. The UCI probably wanted one of their own labs to verify the usability of the test, determine cost, effectiveness, and other stuff like that. The test itself has probably been in development for years, but it took a while to get it to the point where it could reliably be used as a testing procedure in the real world.
Casey
Sep 22, 04 5:18
Post #205 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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jaj
Sep 22, 04 5:46
Post #206 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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No, I believe he was referring to the more recent failed "A" test showing blood abnormalities. It's also not comparing people and their acts but the fact that everyone says they are innocent.
It's funny that in my 14 years of law enforcement I have only arrested a handful of guilty people. Everyone has an excuse.
jaj
Sep 22, 04 5:53
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [adrialin]
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I'm really not evil. Cyncal sometimes, and skeptical most of the time, but not evil!!
I have learned through my job that most everyone will proclaim innocence no matter what the evidence. I am sort of jaded toward that innocent, 'save face' type of thing anymore.
jvanalsb
Sep 22, 04 6:05
Post #208 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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Steep - how long are these 'other' proteins present in the recipient's bloodstream? Or, do they lead the normal life of a red blood cell, and the test won't pick them up after all the donated red blood cells have lived their normal lifetime? Just a layman trying to understand the logic behind the tests. thanks.
TripleThreat
Sep 22, 04 6:16
Post #209 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Murg]
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If he cheated, I'll be glad he got caught. If he didn't, I'll be glad his name is cleared. Seems like all the evidence is pointing in one direction on this one. It's not like a started a Tyler is Guilty website ... I voiced an opinion on a discussion board.
Is there any athlete that admits PED use right off? Doesn't everyone claim innocence initially ... until there's no way out?
You don't fail "multiple tests" by accident. Not in this day and age. I wish it weren't true, but it is. Before I even got interested in triathlon, I knew of cycling's drug problem. I'm a cycling outsider, but cycling seems to be one of the worst sports when it comes to PED-use. The PED use I saw in college and heard of from friends that went pro, told me more than I ever wanted to know about PED use in major sports.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
Diabolo
Sep 22, 04 6:23
Post #210 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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"The UCI probably wanted one of their own labs to verify the usability of the test"
Actually, at the moment, only two labs can do this test with this methodology : the official "IOC" agreed labs in Lausanne and in Athens. The test was developped by the australians (like the EPO blood test years ago).
WADA warned the athletes that there may be new tests in Athens for the olympics (without saying which ones, obviously).
zoomy3
Sep 22, 04 9:44
Post #211 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Diabolo]
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It looks like Tyler isn't going to get the support from his team that they originally projected. He has been suspended.
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
adrialin
Sep 22, 04 10:00
Post #212 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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I bet his hematocrit was very close to the limit in all the tests this year. Would be interesing to know what it is off-season. That would be a strong indicator for his guilt. I think the general attitude in athletes doing blood-doping is as follows:
"My natural hematocrit is at 39%, if I am in top shape. They are allowing it to be up to 50%, so I have some leverage. I don't feel bad about it, because there are guys in the field who have that value without <treatment>. I just want to level the playing field, there is nothing wrong with that."
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
jhc
Sep 22, 04 10:19
Post #213 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jvanalsb]
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In Reply To:
Steep - how long are these 'other' proteins present in the recipient's bloodstream? Or, do they lead the normal life of a red blood cell, and the test won't pick them up after all the donated red blood cells have lived their normal lifetime? Just a layman trying to understand the logic behind the tests. thanks.
The proteins in question are on the RBCs, not free in the bloodstream.
The easiest way to think about the test would be like if you knew Tyler was type O but 20% of his RBCs were type AB. Those other 20% would have to come from another person. (The A and B refer to two types of a protein found on the surface of the RBC, the O means the absence of that protein)
The reason that it doesnt happen exactly this way is because those A and B proteins can set off a huge immune response if the donor and receipient aren't matched. However there are other proteins that are also on the surface of an RBC that dont set off an immune response when mismatched. These can be identified by the new test.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
jhc
Sep 22, 04 10:23
Post #214 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Casey]
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I don't understand. If you took your own blood out and re-injected it later, would you fail a doping test? Is there anyway they can tell if you had this done?
You wouldnt fail this new test. However if you were taking banned substances at the time you took your own blood out they would show up again when you reinjected that blood.
Also, why would an elite athlete inject someone else's blood?
To increase the number of RBCs and therefor increase oxygen delivery to the muscle tissue.
Can it be anyone's blood?
Yes, as long as it's matched for ABO and Rh blood type
Will it help performance if you added an average person's blood to his?
Yes.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Kirk Willett
Sep 22, 04 10:53
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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Big Kahuna,
You are a courageous person to label and brand individuals from the safety of your computer. I do not frequent this forum, so perhaps your identity has been revealed already. If it has, I apologize.
If you do know Dr. Steffen, please come forward with your real name so that your claims can be validated. Until then, I suggest all those reading anonymous posts such as BK’s which slander/libel specific individuals, dismiss them as the junk they are.
I personally know Dr. Steffen. He is professional, and extremely knowledgeable and proficient in the medical areas he pursues. This includes ethical cycling applications before and after his stint with the U.S. Postal Service team. I am familiar with the “
particulars surrounding Dr. Steffen and his relationship with the Posties”
and many related issues surrounding the sport and the individuals involved.
If there were questions about his credibility or medical proficiency as applied to all ethical, cycling-related issues, he certainly would not have been allowed to work with Mercury and Prime Alliance, and I currently believe, not allowed to work with Jonathan Vaughter’s TIAA-Cref/5280 U23 team and the HealthNet team. He is viewed as a proficient and ethical emergency medicine and cycling physician.
I believe Dr. Steffen’s statements in the area discussed to be accurate given his sporting/medical ethics background, my personal experience with him, and other supporting knowledge I have acquired through my experiences in the sport.
Kirk Willett
The Committee
Sep 22, 04 12:07
Post #216 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Steepler2k]
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AJHull
Sep 22, 04 12:10
Post #217 of 243
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I did not follow the news about Dr.Steffen. Did he claim that LA was using PED's or blood doping?
_____
Adrian in Vancouver
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zoomy3
Sep 22, 04 12:10
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Isn't it based on the pubmed reference posted earlier in this thread?
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
jhc
Sep 22, 04 12:21
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
they had to do a ton of testing to even be able to publish it.
The
particular
testing method used has never been published.
Really? - I thought it was this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...p;list_uids=14607758
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
zoomy3
Sep 22, 04 12:26
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I believe what he is saying is that although it is based on the published work, the particular laboratory protocol used by the testing agents has not been published.
Of all the people seeking to cast doubt on the test, I wouldn't have picked The Oracle (Captain Pubmed himself) to be one of them.
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Andrew
"When will i learn, people do not want to hurt but will spend $500.00 bucks to go four seconds faster." - randall t
The Committee
Sep 22, 04 13:09
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big kahuna
Sep 22, 04 13:29
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Ahh....the old "you're a coward behind a computer" gag. I don't mind that people know my name, it's just that we like to use handles on this site.
Like I said, until someone can bring provable evidence that'll hold up in court, I can't help but doubt the motivations of the person(s) who bring up such flimsy accusations without even the barest of supporting documentation, other than their word.
I'm personally disappointed in how many people have "dog piled" onto Mr. Hamilton and labeled him as the worst sort of lowlife without giving him even the benefit of the doubt, which is what we're supposed to do in our legal system, btw. Nor do they seem to be willing to wait for hard physical evidence, backed by an indisputable chain of custody and tested under rigorous protocols. Rather, to paraphrase Johnny Cochrane, "they rush to judgement".
You're sticking up for the doctor, and I respect that. I apoligize for the the pejorative used. Perhaps I can be nicer and say that absent any evidence to the contrary, I cannot find that I would be able to support his assertion of the guilt of present or former riders on the Postal team.
Tony
dsmith65
Sep 22, 04 13:46
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I've seen that article posted on other boards too. My only concern, is if this is the only publication on the testing system it mentions they tested it on 25 people. Surely if you are going to be doing something that can have a huge impact on peoples lives you would find a methodology when being developed was tested on more than 25 people? If you have any other background info that would be great. Thanks
Don
jhc
Sep 22, 04 13:57
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So was the test used on Tyler different from the one published in the article above?
And to dsmith - I agree that 25 people is a pretty small number, and would like to see it validated on a larger number of people. But the test itself is pretty darn straightforward and I woulnd't imagine that false-positives would be very likely at all.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Robert
Sep 22, 04 14:02
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That was known in 1995 and almost ten years later they are getting around to DOING it? Sheezh, talk about lack of will by the NGBs.
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
jhc
Sep 22, 04 14:13
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Robert, I'm not sure what you're refering to...
As an additional note, it looks like flow cytometry has been used for detecting and quantitating maternal-fetal hemorrhage for quite some time (another case of a mixed blood situation) so it's not really like the technology is new or untested. It's just the first time it's been proposed to deal with blood doping in athletes. This is from the paper cited above:
The ability of flow cytometry to detect foreign cells has been extensively studied in the setting of fetomaternal haemorrhage, where a level of 0.25% represents a fetal bleed (approximately 12 mL of fetal blood). This is at the limit of efficacy of the normal maternal prophylactic dose of anti-D immunoglobulin; therefore, it is critical that a hemorrhage even slightly above this level should be
accurately measured and appropriate treatment instigated.13 Flow cytometry has been successfully applied in this specialized setting, and sensitivity at this level implies that the method has the capacity to detect antigenically-distinct RBCs for a considerable period post-infusion. Were an athlete to transfuse one or more units of homologous blood, the detection window would far exceed the 3-4 week period during which a meaningful performance advantage could be obtained.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Robert
Sep 22, 04 14:19
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I assumed from the numbers on the paper that it was a 1995 article. Am I wrong?
Anyway, the paper, if accurate, demonstrated that it could be done. Why did it take the NGBs, and all the alphabet soup orgs TEN YEARS almost to decide to test for homologous blood doping using the technique? If it was not done out of sheer ignorance, I'll buy that. :)
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
The Committee
Sep 22, 04 14:22
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jhc]
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jhc
Sep 22, 04 14:25
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The paper was published in 2003, although 1995 sounds about right for when flow was first started being use for meternal-fetal hemorrhage measurement.
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I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
jhc
Sep 22, 04 14:28
Post #230 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Captain Pubmed]
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I have seen the article - what are you refering to?
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
The Committee
Sep 22, 04 14:38
Post #231 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [jhc]
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adrialin
Sep 22, 04 14:53
Post #232 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Robert]
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Please read the thread where a knowledgeable poster talks about the process involved it takes to actually develop the "invention" into a "marketable product" (For the non-scientists around here).
It is similar from the discovery of a new drug until it is actually sold in your pharmacy. The processes involved in that can take up to 15 years. I am sure
jhc
has the correct statistical numbers for you :-)
I admit, for some of the drug-testing protocols already discovered, it still takes way to long until they are actually implemented.
A big part of it can be blamed on the limited availability of financial resources to the drug test developing institutions.
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
(This post was
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by adrialin on Sep 22, 04 15:05)
adrialin
Sep 22, 04 15:03
Post #233 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [zoomy3]
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>I believe what he is saying is that although it is based on the published work, the particular laboratory protocol used by the testing agents has >not been published.
I am sure, the testing procedure is available to persons who are authorized or required to see it. I am sure it is peer-reviewed and governmental approved. It just is not available on a public source like PubMed and this is all good.
People already do enough nonsense with procedures/experiments they pull from PubMed without having the proper training, education or background.
adrialin
(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)
(This post was
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by adrialin on Sep 22, 04 15:23)
jhc
Sep 22, 04 15:10
Post #234 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Captain Pubmed]
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That the antigens being detected are secret.
Ah, thanks. I know they discuss that - wasn't aware which antigens were being used in the actual test. Maye because they're secret ;)
_______________________________________________
I love sushi, but I'd rather not have it served next to a "fish taco". - KEJ
Kirk Willett
Sep 22, 04 20:15
Post #235 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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Tony something (if that is your real name),
Handles are cool and all, but when you anonymously call specific people liars etc., it is indeed cowardly, and possibly also libel/slander (whether you use your real name or not) when making unfounded statements about a person such as you have.
If a saying is old, but still fits…(as you quote: "you're a coward behind a computer")...it see no reason not to use it.
If you gave us your whole name and provided first-hand, public testimony about how you have personally experienced Dr. Steffen to be a liar, you can be considered for credibility. Until then, you have none on this subject, and your credibility on all the other topics you post about is also shot.
I suggest changing your handle.
Since you bring up the issue of court-quality evidence, eye-witness testimony is certainly considered to be some of the best evidence possible in a variety of situations. That is exactly what Dr. Steffen provided…first-hand evidence regarding a particular incident.
Please clarify for the forum what you are taking about when you mention the need for documentation etc. in regards to Dr. Steffen and Tyler.
Kirk Willett
Murg
Sep 22, 04 21:10
Post #236 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Kirk Willett]
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Dr. Steffen's resume...
Currently: HealthNet Team Physician
Prime Alliance Team Physician, June 2002 - 2003
Mercury Team Physician, 1998-2002
USA Cycling, Medical Director, 1997 & 1998
Summer Olympics Cycling Venue Physician, 1996
USPS Pro Cycling Team Physician, 1993-1996
Tour Du Pont Physician, 1991-1993
Spago-Rossin Cycling Team, 1992
Coors Light Racing Team Physician, 1991
US National Teams Senior Physician, 1988-1990
Olympic Trials Staff Physician, 1988
U.S. & Canadian National Teams, Senior World Championships, 1986
...just wondering...is having this many positions normal? And how come he went from plum jobs (USPS, USA Cycling med directors) to B level? A couple of former pros told me he was "dismissed" from USPS. Anyone know?
TripleThreat
Sep 23, 04 6:01
Post #237 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [big kahuna]
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I'm personally disappointed in how many people have "dog piled" onto Mr. Hamilton and labeled him as the worst sort of lowlife without giving him even the benefit of the doubt, which is what we're supposed to do in our legal system, btw.
1. Worst sort of low-life? No one is calling him a child molester or anything ... but, is there anything worse in competitive sports than a cheat?
2. The US Justice System and the Court of Public Opinion do not follow the same rules. The Justice system has not found him guilty, but the Court of Public Opinion has indicated that the arrows are pointing in one direction.
3. Another difference ... you can't plead "No Contest" in the Court of Public Opinion.
4. Tyler is suffering in this instance b/c his "innocent" situation is preceded by many other situations where athletes claiming to be the victims of contaminated/errant tests were found to be guilty. So many athletes have cried wolf (i.e., claimed innocence while knowing they were guilty) that when an athletes yells wolf, we don't even blink, let alone look and see if anything is standing behind us. Fair? Probably not. Athletes made their own bed on this one, now they have to ... aaaaah, I won't even finish yet another cliche.
Personally, I'd like to see some honesty, just once, in regards to PED use, recreational hard drug use, gambling, etc. I'm tired of athletes only being honest to reduce their sentence/punishment. Be a man. Admit your mistake. Take your punishment. Stand up from being knocked down.
There I go again ...
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
drfunk000
Sep 23, 04 7:38
Post #238 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Murg]
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There is only one Division 1 cycling team in the United States: US Postal Service. I'm not exactly sure what your point is... if he was to work with another Division 1 team he would have to relocate to Europe.
He also maintains a medical practice outside of his position as Team Physician.
The Committee
Sep 23, 04 8:22
Post #239 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Murg]
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Murg
Sep 23, 04 8:46
Post #240 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Captain Pubmed]
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Read the post. Not talking about money..of course no one gets rich in cycling except the top athletes (although I hope Johann does well, too.). Since there's no money there's only prestige or enjoyment to work for, and who wouldn't want to keep working for a spectacularly growing organization like USPS, or on the Olympics?
All I was wondering was, is it normal for a med director to go from job to job like this? Asking the question, not stating an opinion. If it's unusual, then I might view the validity of his allegations against the USPS team in that light.
(This post was
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by Murg on Sep 23, 04 8:49)
The Committee
Sep 23, 04 8:56
Post #241 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [adrialin]
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Robert
Sep 23, 04 9:28
Post #242 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [Captain Pubmed]
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Interesting point. That would certainly raise all sorts of issues that could easily be exploited by the lawyers.
This whole thing is starting to look like a big can of worms and I wonder if the drug czars haven't OVERREACHED here? Maybe this test wasn't ready for prime time?
-Robert
"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
kjsmitty
Sep 23, 04 10:49
Post #243 of 243
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Re: Say it ain't so, Tyler [freestyle]
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TH is a skinny whiner who dropped out of this years TDF because he was crying about his dog. What a guy.
Smitty
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