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pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers
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johnny law
Nov 26, 08 7:11
Post #1 of 38 (1454 views)
pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers
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For anyone who's 60 +/- a couple of minutes in an IM (or equivalent 1/2 IM, slightly under 30?), I'm curious as to what kind of interval you would come in on the 200 and 100 in this set: 3x(4x50 hard, 200 mod-hard/hard, 4x25 hard, 100 mod-hard/hard), consistent splits across all three reps, either SCY or LCM (I don't have access to SCM, so those numbers would be meaningless to me). My last 1/2 IM was about 35 and change, but I've made some pretty big gains in the pool since then; I'm currently about 3:00/1:25 SCY for a set like this, and I'm wondering how far off I am from my goal pace.
Disclaimer, since I'm sure someone will bring it up: I realize this isn't necessarily going to be a good way to extrapolate OW distance pace. I just think it's an interesting question.
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Jagerstar
Nov 26, 08 7:13
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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sub 60 swimmer (50:xx at last race)
1:07 / 2:15 for SCY
hmm seems like i missed the point here, the intervals would be 1:15/2:30
that's a real nasty set though, i'd imagine my times would drop off to near 1:10 and 2:20 by the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
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Oprah
Nov 26, 08 7:30
Post #3 of 38 (1407 views)
Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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Is 3:00/1:25 the interval you're leaving on or the time you are hitting when you come into the wall? I'm about a 30-31 1/2IM swimmer and I could do that as an interval.
ianpeace
Nov 26, 08 8:02
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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J Law - This set you've mentioned:
3x(4x50 hard, 200 mod-hard/hard, 4x25 hard, 100 mod-hard/hard) I find interesting. For starters I'm reluctant to use the word "hard" in swimming as it leaves the swimmer with the idea that it should be...well..."hard". This might be too much of a coach's perspective but I would rather say "fast". If you wanted to swim ~60 for an IM I would put SCY time standards (and intention) on this set to look like this (and keep in mind these are "send off" standards meaning you gotta get into the wall, get some recovery and the ready to launch when the clock strikes the time).
4x50s fast on :45, 200 steady and strong on 2:50, 4x25s easy on :30, 100 all out on 1:30) - The idea being that the first set of 50s put some pressure on the swimmer that would mimic the need to get a strong start - one that gets you away from the mass. Then you'd settle into a manageable pace for the 200 that would be "big middle" pace for the IM swim. The 4x25s here are used to refresh - they are easy and should be so that you are set up to swim the last 100 FAST and I mean near sprint - I would think a 60 min IM swimmer would fire that 100 off at or near 1:00. The time standard for the last 100 (1:30) seems soft but not when you consider you're gonna do three in a row - recovering from a 1:00 100 after that set in just 30 seconds and then going back into the set again - that's gonna be a big effort.
If the set is designed to improve a swimmer's missing element then it should be changed. Example: if the missing element is turnover speed then you'd want to swim lots of fast swims but with lots of rest so that they'd have a chance refresh and ready themselves for another beneficial practice of fast turnover. If the goal was to improve some element of technique the it would be a shorter set with higher focus. Etc.
If you wanted to throw in a "marker set" once a month to see how an IM swimmer is approaching their goal swim pace - and I caution you, this set is boring but revealing - is 15x100s on.....something manageable/acheivable. For a ~60min IM swim they'd need to demonstrate 15x100s scy on 1:25 where you are coming in ~1:15ish and can keep this going with a RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion, 1-10) that is fairly comfy, around 6ish. If they can eek out the 15x100s on 1:25 but only have 2 seconds rest for 7 of them and are wasted by the end then the bike/run following that isn't gonna be pretty.
Ian
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baxnelly
Nov 26, 08 8:24
Post #5 of 38 (1278 views)
Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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I swam an EASY 1:03 at IMWI this year, my PB in a half is around 28:30 or so.
If I do say 10x100's with 10 seconds rest I can come in ~1:15-1:16.
My 'marker set' as another poster listed was even more boring. It was 40x100's on 1:30. I was coming in at 1:20-1:22 and they all felt relatively easy, although my mind was mush by the time it was done.
Probably my favorite set, and I don't know why, is 30-35 minutes of 100's on 10 seconds rest. I go steady, steady, easy, hard then repeat. I usually come in around 1:18-1:20 for the two steady 100's, about 1:25 for the easy and the hard ones can be anywhere from 1:08-1:12 depending on how I'm feeling.
I've found that for me a lot what worked for me in IM prep was to focus on pacing and exertion. When I could get to where a 1:20 felt easy/smooth/comfy and I could predict my pace within a second or less as I was swimming I knew I was where I wanted to be.
If I was swimming your set I would probably be ~ 2:35 or so on the 200 and 1:15 or so on the 100.
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jpflores
Nov 26, 08 8:46
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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it's been a long time since I've done an IM, but in the two that I did I swam 56 minutes. My HIM times for 2008 were all 27-28 minutes.
I would swim that set with the 50's around 32, 33, the 200 around 2:23-2:25 and the last 100 around 1:10. I never swim 25's, but guess maybe 15 seconds for those. SCY.
Speaking of, why are you doing 25's? IMHO, super short intervals like that have little value for a long-distance swimmer. You'd be better off doing drills.
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ChrisM
Nov 26, 08 8:48
Post #7 of 38 (1210 views)
Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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Swam 59 at IMAZ. My benchmark set was a 16 x 100 on 1:20. It was hard, but I knew I could double that easily on a 1:30 base.
For 200s my intervals were either 3:00 or 2:50, and I would come in around 2:35
For 100s my intervals were usually 1:30, sometimes 1:20, good days I was holding 1:12s or so
I am no coach, but as others seem to have pointed out, the key to me for getting faster was to be able to hold a consistent split over a large number of intervals, coming in within 2-3 seconds of the same time over 10 100s, or 5 200s
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Med Tent Man
Nov 26, 08 9:16
Post #8 of 38 (1163 views)
Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [ianpeace]
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I think you'll find that very few 60 minute IM swimmers can even do a 1:00/100yd once, much less three in one set. There's a big difference between holding 1:25/100 and doing a 1:00 100yd sprint. I'm a pretty decent triathlon swimmer (37th fastest swim split at Timberman 70.3 in 2007 going 28:58) with a 100 PR of 51.2 (way back in 1990 or so), and I'd be hard pressed to do a 1 flat in a set and keep swimming.
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ianpeace
Nov 26, 08 9:28
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [Old and Haggard]
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Ken, you are so right about the few triathletes who can tic off a 1 min 100 in the pool. I'd like to see more "good" swimmers in triathlon chase that as it would add in a much needed element in their training. Now for the huge disclaimer - all newbie, lower intermediate and intermediate swimmers don't do this! Invest your time in reducing drag first and then creating propulsion second - after your form is solid then chase speed.
Ian
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jpflores
Nov 26, 08 9:28
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [Old and Haggard]
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I disagree with you there. I'm a solid swimmer but certainly not super-fast, 27-28ish HIM, and I can swim right around a minute flat from a push if its 100% all out and for time. I swam 58 from a dive this past winter. The last 25 is pure agony though.
To your point....3 in one set at the tail end of some harder stuff is a different matter, altogether.
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Fleck
Nov 26, 08 9:48
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [baxnelly]
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It was 40x100's on 1:30. I was coming in at 1:20-1:22 and they all felt relatively easy, although my mind was mush by the time it was done.
Why not swim 4K straight - or 60 minutes. I was a lousy swimmer, but I started making this a weekly staple of my swim training. Seemed to help. There is no way that I should have been able to swim 57 low in IM's but I was, and I think those 4K straight swims were a key reason. I note that come summer, I would do these in open water and make one hour the marker.
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David in NY
Nov 26, 08 9:53
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [ianpeace]
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Ian,
I am a former swimmer for whom doing a 1:00 from a push is not that big a deal. But that takes way more effort for me to do than to do something like 6x100s on 1:10 (holding 1:05s). Doing anything below 1:00 gets me a lot closer to anaerobic and I don't really see the need for that given my current focus on IM distance. In fact, I deliberately go a fair bit slower (both in effort and time) in the IM swim than even those 1:10s. Are you suggesting that there is some benefit to me in doing these sub-1:00s on occasion?
David
jpflores
Nov 26, 08 9:56
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [Fleck]
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because counting 160 laps is nearly impossible without losing track.
and its laps, not lengths. :-)
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tribreck
Nov 26, 08 9:58
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [jpflores]
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I would swim that set with the 50's around 32, 33, the 200 around 2:23-2:25 and the last 100 around 1:10. I never swim 25's, but guess maybe 15 seconds for those. SCY.
Speaking of, why are you doing 25's? IMHO, super short intervals like that have little value for a long-distance swimmer. You'd be better off doing drills.
I agree with JPF's time estimates for the 50s, 200 and 100. 25s should be more like 13 seconds. That sounds about right for me for going just under 60 minutes.
I don't agree with his take on "super short intervals", though. I think it's always good to work on that speed.
ianpeace
Nov 26, 08 10:09
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [David in NY]
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No, David I don't recommend you swimming those fast bits, clearly you don't need to build that end of you fitness. There are - caution: gross generalization head - two kinds of swimmers in triathlon: 1) folks who swam in grade school, high school, college and then came to triathlon later with competence, confidence and speed - and 2) folks who never swam with purpose but road or ran and are now just trying to develop their swim. They start with poor technique, they lack confidence in the water that usually flares up in the first 200m of the start (in the scrum), and are fairly slow. For those latter folks I think they should pursue good swim technique first and foremost but should also blend in speed because (and we see this with new/poor runners too) there's just one speed and they never strive to take what skills they've learned and try and maintain some quality in their stroke when going faster.
Ian
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Med Tent Man
Nov 26, 08 10:16
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [ianpeace]
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No, David I don't recommend you swimming those fast bits, clearly you don't need to build that end of you fitness. There are - caution: gross generalization head - two kinds of swimmers in triathlon: 1) folks who swam in grade school, high school, college and then came to triathlon later with competence, confidence and speed - and 2) folks who never swam with purpose but road or ran and are now just trying to develop their swim. They start with poor technique, they lack confidence in the water that usually flares up in the first 200m of the start (in the scrum), and are fairly slow. For those latter folks I think they should pursue good swim technique first and foremost but should also blend in speed because (and we see this with new/poor runners too) there's just one speed and they never strive to take what skills they've learned and try and maintain some quality in their stroke when going faster.
Ian
(I love being different)
And then there's me, who ran through college, never swam with purpose until age 26, and whose first 50 in a meet at that age was a 26.5...:-)
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Fleck
Nov 26, 08 10:16
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [jpflores]
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because counting 160 laps is nearly impossible without losing track.
That's why I would typically go for time - 60minutes. Give or take it would be pretty close. I would only do this long course (50M) Short course would be nuts.
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johnny law
Nov 26, 08 10:52
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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Some interesting thoughts here; thanks to everyone for the info. To clarify a couple of points, when I said "interval you would come in on", I was referring to touch the wall, not touch, rest, and take off again. I may not have been clear enough there. As for the person who asked why I do 25s, there are two reasons: a) it's a workout that comes up at master's every so often, and 2) they're fun; I'm one of those sick individuals who actually enjoys swimming for swimming's sake (and I didn't start "real" swimming until I was 27, making me even sicker. Oh, and I also love to IM, even though I absolutely suck at it.).
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jpflores
Nov 26, 08 10:56
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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nothing wrong with enjoying swimming. Having fun is what it's all about.
I like doing IM or 'choice' sets also. Breaks up the monotony of freestyle all the time and uses some different muscle groups which is a good thing.
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tigerchik
Nov 26, 08 11:00
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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3x(4x50 hard, 200 mod-hard/hard, 4x25 hard, 100 mod-hard/hard
so I'd do the 50s on :60, the 200 on 3:00, the 4 x 25 on :40, and the 100 on 1:30 if I wanted those all to be fast.
And I'd go 2:23ish on the 200, 1:08-1:09 on the 100.
HIM swim times for me have been 25 min high or 26 min low :-)
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johnny law
Nov 26, 08 11:01
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [ianpeace]
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J Law - This set you've mentioned:
3x(4x50 hard, 200 mod-hard/hard, 4x25 hard, 100 mod-hard/hard) I find interesting. For starters I'm reluctant to use the word "hard" in swimming as it leaves the swimmer with the idea that it should be...well..."hard". This might be too much of a coach's perspective but I would rather say "fast". If you wanted to swim ~60 for an IM I would put SCY time standards (and intention) on this set to look like this (and keep in mind these are "send off" standards meaning you gotta get into the wall, get some recovery and the ready to launch when the clock strikes the time).
4x50s fast on :45, 200 steady and strong on 2:50, 4x25s easy on :30, 100 all out on 1:30) - The idea being that the first set of 50s put some pressure on the swimmer that would mimic the need to get a strong start - one that gets you away from the mass. Then you'd settle into a manageable pace for the 200 that would be "big middle" pace for the IM swim. The 4x25s here are used to refresh - they are easy and should be so that you are set up to swim the last 100 FAST and I mean near sprint - I would think a 60 min IM swimmer would fire that 100 off at or near 1:00. The time standard for the last 100 (1:30) seems soft but not when you consider you're gonna do three in a row - recovering from a 1:00 100 after that set in just 30 seconds and then going back into the set again - that's gonna be a big effort.
...
Yeah, I wasn't sure "hard" was the right word there. What I was trying to convey was a tough effort, but not all out; maybe some deep breathing at the wall, but still comfortably breathing every 3 during the effort. A former coach used to use the word "peppy" to describe target intensity, but I don't think that's quite right, either.
And I really like your second paragraph; I think I'm going to use it retroactively as a target/justification for this set. I wish I could take credit for it, but it pops up in my masters workout every so often. It's the kind of set that tends to keep me focused on the task at hand, which is why it stuck in my brain.
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tigerchik
Nov 26, 08 11:06
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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here's a good set,
3 x
[3 x 100 on 1:35 pull, long strokes (15-16/25)
25 on :55 easy
200 on 3:00 moderate
300 on 4:30 FAST
25 on :55 easy]
I went 2:32/3:38, 2:30/3:34, 2:26/3:34. Was a little tired on the last 300 (this was the second swim of the day for me) it should've been under 3:30. But you get the idea - this is better than the one you've posted which is all "hard hard hard," get some REALLY fast vo2 max work in there and the 200 is thresholdish...
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johnny law
Nov 26, 08 11:06
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [tigerchik]
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You and Jagerstar are disqualified from this thread for being too fast.
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tigerchik
Nov 26, 08 11:07
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [johnny law]
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so when we do 25s, we do say 3 x [4 x 25] build, 1/2 length sprint, then alternate easy/fast. Just another way to play with them...
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baxnelly
Nov 26, 08 11:34
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Re: pool split q for ~60:00 im swimmers [Fleck]
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It was 40x100's on 1:30. I was coming in at 1:20-1:22 and they all felt relatively easy, although my mind was mush by the time it was done.
Why not swim 4K straight - or 60 minutes. I was a lousy swimmer, but I started making this a weekly staple of my swim training. Seemed to help. There is no way that I should have been able to swim 57 low in IM's but I was, and I think those 4K straight swims were a key reason. I note that come summer, I would do these in open water and make one hour the marker.
Because 40x100 sounds much more badass than 1x4000.
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