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Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question
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So, I've subscribed to the Barry P plan now for a few years, and have seen a consistent improvement in my running year on year since I completed my first (and so far only) Iron distance race in 2013.

During my build for this race, I didn't move out of Phase 1, as although I had been competing in triathlons for a couple of years prior to that, I had no significant clue to be polite about, with regards to run training. Introduced to Barry P on here, and started to make some progress.

2014, was a mixed bag, a new born (Nov 2013), and injury, led to more or less a year off. My little boy really didn't like sleep for the first 18 months of his life. I maintained some running and regular PT from September 2014 to the present has led to consistent running. I introduced some tempo running in Feb, with one eye on a 70.3 in June, and mixed it up with some Intervals with a view to giving me a bit of specifity for the sprints I did. A 5 day MTB race was also thrown in there, but all in all, after 2014, 2015 was a year of consistent training. Run wise, depending on my next race, was either no running or lots of running. Some weeks of 0 miles a week, some weeks in the 40s. Year to date, when taking an average for the entire year, I have managed an average 28 miles per week, and a consistency I am quite happy with.

2016 is back to the long course. My boy sleeps, my other half is understanding, and with occasionally murmurings of baby number 2, I want to take advantage of the hours I have available now and get a decent time on the board for 140.6 at Challenge Roth next year.

I should probably get to the point....

I am currently building my winter running mileage. I attribute most of my decent performances (by my standards) to a decent winters running racking up the miles. I am looking to move on a level if you like, and looking to get my weekly average up to around 40 - 55 miles per week, depending on how my body responds in terms of fatigue and injury (Or should I say, pulling back before injury). I will look to mix it up next year, by implementing some Tempo / Threshold runs / Barry P Phase 2 / faster running (Depending on your terminology preference), but my question is when I should do this? Or even if I should do this?

I would describe myself as an 'average' responder to training, I get out of my racing, what I put into my training, and trying to establish whether the additional stimulation is going to bring performance benefits desired over the long course.

Thanks in advance,

*EDIT* Some other titbits of info - Run in Hokas and employ a 3 weeks build, 1 week recovery model to running. Yep, I know, a run build should mean no recovery weeks required, but as well as a bit of a rest, it helps bring a bit more train / life balance. Just started another round of 3 weeks build (40, 44, 49 Miles).
Last edited by: trihard1980: Nov 26, 15 15:10
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]
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You may find this old, short thread I started useful (particularly BarryP's response):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=5396051;search_string=;#5396051


Last edited by: zamm0: Nov 27, 15 2:47
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]
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From my training plan:


Quote:
The Ironman

I would like to warn up front that I don’t consider myself an Ironman
coach, but I have competed in one myself and have done a fair amount of reading
on the training for an Ironman. If anything, I see no reason why the principles
laid out above would be any different for this event. IOW, there is no magic
that occurs at the iron distance that will all of the sudden make one want to
ditch their foundation work in exchange for high doses of speed
training.


As I
mentioned about the marathon training, you will see elite iron athletes who are
capable of handling high doses of threshold training as well as doing a fair
amount of mix threshold/long run workouts. These guys have a much more solid
training foundation than most athletes and are training not to finish the run
segment in 4-5 hours, but rather dip below 3 hours. For this reason their
training will be somewhat different than what you should probably
attempt.


I wrote
coach Gordo a few years back to get his insight on run training for my first
Ironman and his suggestion was that the overall training load (including biking
and swimming) was going to be too much for a novice IM athlete to concern
themselves with higher intensity run training. From my limited experience with
this event I tend to agree with him, though I don’t think that limited amounts
of threshold training would be harmful for slightly more experienced athletes
who intend to run their run segment in under 4 hours.


Using
a Marathon to Prepare of an Ironman


Bad idea. Sometimes people think that running the Boston Marathon would
be a great way to prepare for IMWI in September. A Marathon will beat the hell
out of your body and require you a good month to recover from. Why lose so much
training time during the most important part of your IM training?



Final
Note about Ironman Training



Keep in mind that an Ironman
requires a large volume of total training from month to month. A lot of this
high volume training intends to be done in the months preceding the goal race.
For this reason, many IM athletes will do much more training during these months
than in the earlier phases of training.


In
addition, many IMs are done in the summer time leaving the early training
periods in the winter time while it is dark and cold outside. For this and
various other reasons, a lot of coaches like to have more intensity and less
total training time done during this time period.


From a
pure running standpoint, I feel that most triathletes would benefit not
from increasing their intensity during this period, but rather from using it to
build their much needed mileage base that has been missing so far during their
careers. Having said that, there are many coaches and athletes who have
succeeded off of a lower mileage, higher intensity phase in the winter
months.





The bottom line is, the training for an IM isn't really that interesting. Its just getting in lots of slow-ish mileage. If you were working on your second ironman, and had 5+ years of 40+ mpw under your belt, and were shooting for a sub 3:30 finish, we could talk about mixing in some tempo training, and some long runs with long intervals in the them, etc. etc. But I think what you are really going to need is to A) see if you can manage to get in 16 consistent weeks leading up to your race of 35+ mpw, and build up your long run to where you can get in 3 2.5 hr long runs, and another 3 before that that are in the almost 2hr range. At this point, there is no magic workout that's going to dial in a great run performance. It'll be about consistent endurance training.

Good luck!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Very good Barry. I tend to agree. For the IM, in the final build periods, the training focus is better spent on the bike and just obtaining consistent high run volume with the lowest risk possible. You should be burying yourself so hard on the bike with long tempo rides and total volume, that you legs are too fatigued to safely perform quality runs.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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I've not thought about it that way, but I tend to agree.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks both. Sound advice as always. I've been a big believer in run slower, run more = running faster, since first discovering the plan.

One question regarding this current time of year though if you would please? Is it possible to run too many miles? I'm sure the answer is, as ever it depends, but is running those 2.5 hour runs at this time of the year worth while? Is it a case of as many as possible without compromising other training. Whilst some people might prescribe spending time on the other sports, they are in hand and moving forward in terms of consistency and performance.

I'm not a million miles away from being consistently in the 50s per week (Month or two perhaps), which while I appreciate is still a modest amount for pure runners, as a triathlete, I think this is a reasonable amount of mileage, and one I can consistently manage (I hope! Although we will see when I get there!)
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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having followed coach Gordo's advice for my first Ironman (and as a novice runner) I can say that dropping tempo/interval runs and just sticking to easy/long run/recovery paces for IM training was plenty for me to turn in a decent marathon off the swim/bike. You will constantly be training on tired legs from biking so really quality run workouts are a stretch anyways (for a novice). I actually wish I knocked off my tempo/interval runs earlier in my training plan for my ironman.
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Dont mean to hijack the thread - but this isn't to far Off topic: i keep reading that a marathon during the spring (f.ex) could be harmfull for your IM performance later in the season. I understand some of the arguments on this, but not all:

- sure, i get an IM and a marathon are way more different than one should think, and that optimal training for a marathon is not optimal training for an IM. I would guess this is mostly because the marathon would require a training-plan built solely for running while the IM plan would be bike/swim-heavy as well. This aside - I considered myself prepping for an IM or two next year, but spend 50-60 % of my time running now - running being my weakest leg i figured I'd spend winter trying to improve. I feel I would be more prepared than ever to run a marathon this spring!?

- I also get that the actual marathon - if you race it - will leave you pretty fatigued and have you loose some training time. However, in my experience (only 2 previous open marathons) - Im pretty much ready for some good swimming and biking the week after the marathon. Sure - these wont be my big weeks, and i wont hit any all time high intervals, bit i figure still solid training. (But perhaps I'm not going about this "race-a-marathon-thing" correctly, and this leaves me less fatigued? Keep in mind Im no runner, and my previous mary's were 3:2x, ran on avg HR of 87-88% though - if thats relevant)


To summarize - I get that if you are a pro wanting to get every little second available, you would ditch the marathon. For the rest of us - will a marathon REALLY have that big an impact? If yes - which of the points raised above will accont for the most harmfull impact - run-skewed-training (which I am already doing to try i prove my triathlon!) or the fatigue folliwing the marathon?
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I think it depends on what your goals are with reference to the Ironmans. Ultimately, a marathon will put you in a pretty big hole you need to recover from. Factor in a two week taper, your two week recovery and then conservatively another two weeks building back up to where you were before, it's potentially a 6 week hit on your Ironman training. How it affects that training obviously depends on where in relation to your IM is time wise.

If your looking to just finish the IM, sure, go out and run it. Why not. Plenty of us enjoy racing regularly, even endurance events, but I think, as Barry has said, it's not the best prep for an IM, so would make the decision based on your goals.
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]
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trihard1980 wrote:
I think it depends on what your goals are with reference to the Ironmans. Ultimately, a marathon will put you in a pretty big hole you need to recover from. Factor in a two week taper, your two week recovery and then conservatively another two weeks building back up to where you were before, it's potentially a 6 week hit on your Ironman training. How it affects that training obviously depends on where in relation to your IM is time wise.

If your looking to just finish the IM, sure, go out and run it. Why not. Plenty of us enjoy racing regularly, even endurance events, but I think, as Barry has said, it's not the best prep for an IM, so would make the decision based on your goals.

This is what I was thinking about - I dont do this:) (Maybe then I'm not "racing" a marathon like people around here define racing) I dont taper, except that I will cut back the running milage last week before the marathon, also I will back of hard bike-intervalls og long rides the last days before. Also - as I said - I feel it's quite ok to get back to training right after the Marathon. Maybe a week of running but am able to get some decent swim/bike after just a few days. The way I see it, doing a marathon (the way I do it atleast), I dont really sacrifice alot. Am i dillusional or does others feel the same way?
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure someone with more experience and knowledge will chime in at some point...

....but I think the biggest thing is the fatigue, although there are a number of factors that can determine what sort of hole you are left in. You mentioned 'racing', for me its different at every race I do, if there is a chance of a podium at a local sprint tri, (One race a year where the fast boys do the Oly) I'll be racing others, if I'm rocking up to large half marathon, I'm racing myself, in order to get the best time possible. When you do your marathon, are you going out to get a PB? When you cross that finish line, have you left anything on the table, and are working as hard a possible over those last 6 miles with your body screaming at you? This is going to put you in a much deeper hole than 'happy to finish, will run it well within myself at my E-Pace'.

Also preparation, for me, has a big effect on recovery. If you take a couch to 5k'er, whose longest run prior to his race is only 4k, he's going to need significantly more recovery than a guy who runs 40-50-60 or even 70 miles per week. An exteme example maybe, but just illustrating a point.

So, if you run big miles week after week, and arent looking to smash any records, then you are probably right, you arent de-llusional, you arent sacrificing as much, or arent sacrificing as much as you could even...


*Edit* with reference to Barrys comment-

'
Bad idea. Sometimes people think that running the Boston Marathon would
be a great way to prepare for IMWI in September. A Marathon will beat the hell
out of your body and require you a good month to recover from. Why lose so much
training time during the most important part of your IM training?
'

I would suggest Barry is assuming its a 'Best Effort' marathon - please correct me if I am wrong?

Last edited by: trihard1980: Dec 2, 15 4:38
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [lovegoat] [ In reply to ]
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Training to run a fast spring marathon = good idea
Running a fast spring marathon = less good idea

You'll probably be ahead of where you would have been if you had just kept your normal running and not trained/raced a marathon but a bit behind where you'd be if you trained for but didn't run the marathon.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]
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I used to race a half marathon in the middle of my tri season until I realize how far it set me back the next month. I'm a slow recoverer.

Now I just run a half marathon at easy pace each weekend for my long run :)
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [125mph] [ In reply to ]
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Just to add to this as another alternative for IM training, I'm going to try out a 28 day cycle to correlate to a normal 4 week block of training. In this, I'll have 24 days of running, then 1 day off, 1 short 1, a run test of some sort and another day off...rinse and repeat. OF the 24 days, I'll alternate a medium runs with short runs and every 6th day a long run. So rather than a 7 day rotation, it's a 6 day rotation, so you'll get one more long run and medium run in a 3 week block, and 3 more short runs.

Just something different to try. I could also put in a recovery day on day 13 and move to 25 days and do a run test on the 28th day instead.

The point being that with a base of 4 miles for example, you could get in ~170 miles in a 4 week block instead of about 145 but your long run would still only be 12 miles. If using ATL/CTL for training load, that would push it about 6-7 points higher.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Training to run a fast spring marathon = good idea
Running a fast spring marathon = less good idea

You'll probably be ahead of where you would have been if you had just kept your normal running and not trained/raced a marathon but a bit behind where you'd be if you trained for but didn't run the marathon.

This sounds reasonable. I would think that the more you train and the higher your goals are, the more your statement is true. I guess for me - even though my goal is pretty much always to go as fast as I can - doing a spring marathon would be the least of my limiters. Being time constrained - and never really "maxing out" in training (in the sense that I could always have trained more every week for more adaption) - I see I still loose some training time, but not so much that it is a very big deal.

I appreciate the marathon-race itself will be detrimental to developing fitness for an IM later in the season, but probably my limited training time, week-end beers and other real-life-factors slow me down more :)

PS! Please do not pick on me for insinuating that beer is bad for you - I really didnt mean it!
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
One question regarding this current time of year though if you would please? Is it possible to run too many miles? I'm sure the answer is, as ever it depends, but is running those 2.5 hour runs at this time of the year worth while?

Only if you are in shape to run 8+ hours a week.


The problem with excessively long long runs is that they negatively impact the rest of your week's training. When you are far out from your race, your goal is to focus on your long term base. This usually means getting the best training volume in that you can do consistently. 2.5 hour long runs for someone running 5 hours a week is, in reality, preventing them from being able to run 6 hours a week.

Now as your IM gets closer, those 2.5 hour runs meet some specific race needs, so the tradeoff becomes worth it, and at this point if you put in the work over the previous 6 months (or rather 6 YEARS), then you won't lose too much overall fitness while cutting back in order to get these 2.5 hour long runs in.

Make sense?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Barry P Phase 2 Ironman Training Winter Question [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Quote:
One question regarding this current time of year though if you would please? Is it possible to run too many miles? I'm sure the answer is, as ever it depends, but is running those 2.5 hour runs at this time of the year worth while?


Only if you are in shape to run 8+ hours a week.


The problem with excessively long long runs is that they negatively impact the rest of your week's training. When you are far out from your race, your goal is to focus on your long term base. This usually means getting the best training volume in that you can do consistently. 2.5 hour long runs for someone running 5 hours a week is, in reality, preventing them from being able to run 6 hours a week.

Now as your IM gets closer, those 2.5 hour runs meet some specific race needs, so the tradeoff becomes worth it, and at this point if you put in the work over the previous 6 months (or rather 6 YEARS), then you won't lose too much overall fitness while cutting back in order to get these 2.5 hour long runs in.

Make sense?

I take that a step further and say that even as your race gets closer, those long runs still present a lot of risk and trade-off with getting in long rides at race pace intensity... since to reduce risk, your long rides should ideally NOT be the day before your long runs as many triathletes like to do.... with long ride Sat. long run Sun. Also consider that you can do a long ride Sun., then recovery run Monday, then your legs are fresh for a quality medium run on Tuesday so that Thur. can be a easy medium run to set up your long run again Sat. Each run flows into the next.

Triathlete really underestimate the level of fatigue they are carrying around in the middle of the season and late in a training block. A certain moderate level of fatigue quickly begins to feel "normal" and pretty soon they are dancing a fine line. Cross that line and the incremental 2% gain you might have made, becomes a 10% set-back from injury.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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