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Re: Pick my new tires! [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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pyf wrote:
Swissside test shows GP TT bad at higher yaws, just like the Turbo Cotton, Vittoria Evo Tri and so on. For guys who ride that fast GPTT is the closest you can get to a Supersonic WITH a good puncture protection (useful or not... I can't say, some will find SS strong enough, some wants to go with something slightly stronger) and with good enough aero since at 40+ km/h yaws are often under 10°.

Speed of GP TT : closer to Supersonic than GP TT, shown by Tour Magazin and also by a very good french website that do testing in a climb (Cycle & Forme)

I've yet to see aero testing with the SS 23, have you ?
SS20 on Aeroweenie thanks to James Haycraft, if you combine Aero and rolling resistance of SS20 (see Tom A. chart) I don't see how the Supersonic 20 can be a good choice (except for weight but weight is not such a big deal except for the hardest triathlons...).

Did I miss something ? I don't see why smart people like TJ would ride SS 20 ???

Edit : the one thing I see I may have missed is tires are most often tested at the same pressure no matter its size, so when a SS 20 is tested at 120 psi and tests with the same RR as GP4000S 23 with 120 psi then it means if you adjust pressure for "similar" feel/comfort it's quite likely the SS 20 (that is very supple no matter the pressure) will be faster at let's say 130 psi than the GP 4000S 23 at let's say 100 psi.

I have seen/heard various data sources that show the contrary to what James has there that have come from either riders who have tested personally or very big companies. I don't know what wheel James is testing with, psi, and whether there is some interaction with that particular P5 fork, but all the other data suggest the SS is significantly faster aerowise than than GP4000s and even at yaw. What I don't like about James data' is that it goes directly against Zipp's own published Zipp 303 data with the GP4000 23, 25, and Attack showing the narrower Attack performs better at lower yaws and that is with the ultra large 303 which is wider than a 404 and 808. Would have been nice just to get a wheel only run from James as well.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
N=1 for you TG.....

got my first during race flat on an SS. of course it would have been a flat on a 4000S as well, as it was a sidewall puncture about 1.5mm above the edge of the rim and some fresh chipseal. front tire. pop some hissing and it stopped leaking at about 30 psi. this was at the 1km to go mark in a 2 man, 1st lap of 2.

walked back to car(1/2 mile) in my aero walkable cleat which stayed firmly attached :) changed tube(saw green through sidewall), then tire/tube, then headed back out to finish lap 2 so we did not get a DNF, just DFL :)

Sorry to hear about your flat. Fwiw, there was a wicked wicked storm that rolled thru Central Illinois last night. A significant portion of Decatur was without power. The tri I did this morning was with debris everywhere from the storm and still wet roads. Another successful race.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Because one data point on a full bike and rider test isn't even a confident result on that setup, let alone any other one.

Regarding the GPTT it's basically a Force without grooves. Use an Attack turned backward if you want your high-yaw aero.

Agreed but if RR (like I said we still need to compensate RR for pressure and casing "suppleness" which we don't...) is not better than GP4000 23 then aero has to be significantly better than other tires for SS 20 to be worth it IMHO, SS 23 which is a narrow 23 (same width as Attack 22) is faster in RR and probaby only marginally slower in aero since it is by no means a wide tire. So I'm still not sure I get where the SS 20 can really shine compare to SS 23, GP TT, Attack/Force, GP4000 ... make me think Continental has too many good choices ;-) !!!

Force VS GP TT : having both I can tell you they are not so similar, GP TT has less rubber and definitely feels more supple, not saying it is that much faster but still two different tires, the GP TT provides a nicer ride to me as at similar pressure (I would remove a few psi in Force since it is .5mm to 1mm bigger) it does seem to remove a bit more of the road "roughness".

Attack : tried both directions can't tell a difference of course (it would have to be tested) but from looking at other tires threads that do OK at high yaws like Schwalbe Ironman I'm not sure the Attack can be better turned backward. I did have a look at Continental GP thread after that test showing it was better at yaws in one direction than the other but not sure it does apply to the Attack grooves which are quite different. Have you seen any test on Attack in both directions ?
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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I have seen/heard various data sources that show the contrary to what James has there that have come from either riders who have tested personally or very big companies. I don't know what wheel James is testing with, psi, and whether there is some interaction with that particular P5 fork, but all the other data suggest the SS is significantly faster aerowise than than GP4000s and even at yaw. What I don't like about James data' is that it goes directly against Zipp's own published Zipp 303 data with the GP4000 23, 25, and Attack showing the narrower Attack performs better at lower yaws and that is with the ultra large 303 which is wider than a 404 and 808. Would have been nice just to get a wheel only run from James as well.

I didn't know there were other datas, it gets interesting :-) .
James test says Hed Jet 9 wheels, don't know which version though.

Have you seen any comparison for SS 20 against SS 23 in the tunnel ? I guess people who ended up testing the 20 tested the 23 first. I'd be curious to ride the SS 20 to see how it feels, right now the narrowest clincher I ride is Attack 22 and it's not that narrow...
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Re: Pick my new tires! [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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jeffp wrote:
N=1 for you TG.....

got my first during race flat on an SS. of course it would have been a flat on a 4000S as well, as it was a sidewall puncture about 1.5mm above the edge of the rim and some fresh chipseal. front tire. pop some hissing and it stopped leaking at about 30 psi. this was at the 1km to go mark in a 2 man, 1st lap of 2.

walked back to car(1/2 mile) in my aero walkable cleat which stayed firmly attached :) changed tube(saw green through sidewall), then tire/tube, then headed back out to finish lap 2 so we did not get a DNF, just DFL :)

Sorry to hear about your puncture. You guys looked like you had a good time going up to that point.

Mike
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Re: Pick my new tires! [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed but if RR (like I said we still need to compensate RR for pressure and casing "suppleness" which we don't...) is not better than GP4000 23 then aero has to be significantly better than other tires for SS 20 to be worth it IMHO, SS 23 which is a narrow 23 (same width as Attack 22) is faster in RR and probaby only marginally slower in aero since it is by no means a wide tire. So I'm still not sure I get where the SS 20 can really shine compare to SS 23, GP TT, Attack/Force, GP4000 ... make me think Continental has too many good choices ;-) !!!

Of the tires I've tested the SS20 is only ~3% higher Crr than the SS23. Same 120 psi. The GP40000 is quite a bit worse. But they vary like all tires.

The SS23 is .4mm wider and .1mm taller than the Attack by my measurement.

Force VS GP TT : having both I can tell you they are not so similar, GP TT has less rubber and definitely feels more supple, not saying it is that much faster but still two different tires, the GP TT provides a nicer ride to me as at similar pressure (I would remove a few psi in Force since it is .5mm to 1mm bigger) it does seem to remove a bit more of the road "roughness".

The GPTT might have slightly thinner tread, but according to Conti that would be the only difference besides the grooves. The rest of the tire is the same. I base the GPTT=Force on many user reviews stating that the GPTT is wider than the GP4000. The Force is only .5mm wider than the GP4000.

Attack : tried both directions can't tell a difference of course (it would have to be tested) but from looking at other tires threads that do OK at high yaws like Schwalbe Ironman I'm not sure the Attack can be better turned backward. I did have a look at Continental GP thread after that test showing it was better at yaws in one direction than the other but not sure it does apply to the Attack grooves which are quite different. Have you seen any test on Attack in both directions ?

If the grooves are perpendicular to the flow direction they should be more effective. That's all I know.

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Re: Pick my new tires! [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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pyf wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:

I have seen/heard various data sources that show the contrary to what James has there that have come from either riders who have tested personally or very big companies. I don't know what wheel James is testing with, psi, and whether there is some interaction with that particular P5 fork, but all the other data suggest the SS is significantly faster aerowise than than GP4000s and even at yaw. What I don't like about James data' is that it goes directly against Zipp's own published Zipp 303 data with the GP4000 23, 25, and Attack showing the narrower Attack performs better at lower yaws and that is with the ultra large 303 which is wider than a 404 and 808. Would have been nice just to get a wheel only run from James as well.


I didn't know there were other datas, it gets interesting :-) .
James test says Hed Jet 9 wheels, don't know which version though.

Have you seen any comparison for SS 20 against SS 23 in the tunnel ? I guess people who ended up testing the 20 tested the 23 first. I'd be curious to ride the SS 20 to see how it feels, right now the narrowest clincher I ride is Attack 22 and it's not that narrow...

Yes the SS20 performs better in the tunnel than the 23 on a Zipp 808 FC. Again then you have factor in RR


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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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and power to spin....tire size might matter there as well, per testing done elsewhere(unless that is covered in the crr value of those testing??)
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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I know you run the SS at 20 mm but at Racine what pressure are you running on your tires? I have Jet+ rims with Attack up front and GP4000s in back. Usually I run about 95ish but thinking about going down to 90 up front with the road conditions. Looks like it'll be a good day to race!

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Re: Pick my new tires! [jrielley] [ In reply to ]
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jrielley wrote:
I know you run the SS at 20 mm but at Racine what pressure are you running on your tires? I have Jet+ rims with Attack up front and GP4000s in back. Usually I run about 95ish but thinking about going down to 90 up front with the road conditions. Looks like it'll be a good day to race!

I think I pumped by 20mm up to 107 on race morning, which is about 2 hours before I get to the bike so it will leak down. Was ~156lb last year. This year I am racing with 23mm. Will prob pump to 100 on a 808 FC in front.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Is the only difference between the SS and the TT is the vectran protection?
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Re: Pick my new tires! [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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Tony5 wrote:
Is the only difference between the SS and the TT is the vectran protection?

No they are different tires. The TT is wider, has a smooth center tread and rough side tread. I believe the underlying casing is the same.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas, if I flat on the ss20 I fully blame you and Jeff :)
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Re: Pick my new tires! [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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zachboring wrote:
Thomas, if I flat on the ss20 I fully blame you and Jeff :)

Zach,

As I tell everyone. Go out and ride SS in training. Frankly, if you are already nervous about flatting you are just adding more bad mojo that is not needed. The stress related to it will likely make up for any gains. You will eventually have a flat tire with any tire.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I really am not too nervous. I seem to get lucky with flats and rarely ever do, even on crappy roads with well past due tires. Just have too many pre conceived notions that I need to get over with a ride or two
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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Ok so not really changing it up then for the roads. All I needed to know. I usually assume 2-3 psi loss from transition to bike start so might just stick with my 100ish. Thanks!

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Re: Pick my new tires! [jrielley] [ In reply to ]
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jrielley wrote:
Ok so not really changing it up then for the roads. All I needed to know. I usually assume 2-3 psi loss from transition to bike start so might just stick with my 100ish. Thanks!

That is prob about right. Some tubes bleed more, some less. Those with sealant also bleed less.


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Re: Pick my new tires! [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect. Thanks again. Maybe I'll see you Sunday.

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Re: Pick my new tires! [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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think i just bought like 6 different tires, will be fun trying them all out! Cant wait.

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Re: Pick my new tires! [zachboring] [ In reply to ]
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I already flatted a 20mm SS in a TTT Sunday.

guess what I put back on to go out and finish the second lap......yup, another 20mm SS :)

of the 3 flats I have had in the last year on a 20mm SS, only one was tires related, Sunday. One I am pretty sure I pinched the tube in install, but hoped I hadn't. the other was a leaky valve. sharp rocks will flat about any conti tire sidewall IME
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